Once Groundspeak brings back virtuals, what are you going to "hide"?

[+Coldgears]

I've had a few idea's but nothing certain yet. What are you guys going to "hide" with the new virtuals?

[+the4dirtydogs]

You can hide virtuals? I thuoght they were already there.

[GOF and Bacall]

If I was planning to "hide" a virtual I certainly wouldn't tell you. Someone might steal the idea.

[sabrefan7]

We will have to wait and see I suspect. Im all about Historic Places my self

[4wheelin_fool]

I was on the walkway of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge on saturday looking for info for a possible offset multicache. I think that would be a good spot for a virt, as the view is excellent and is much different than whizzing by in a car. A bridge officer on a bicycle asked me what I was doing since I was stopped and writing numbers down from the electrical boxes, so I explained it to him. He asked if I was going to hide anything, and I told him nothing could, or would be hidden on the bridge. He then asked me if there was a cache in a particular spot which was visible from the walkway and when I told him there used to be, he then knew exactly what "they" were doing. I actually was thinking of flying a kite just before that from there, since it was so windy and didnt see any specific prohibitions listed on the signage but I called to check and was told that it was not allowed.

[+Bad_Wolfe]

With our area being so big on historical sites, we're at no loss of cool places to place Virtuals. With it being one of our favorite spots, we'll probably be putting one up at Surrender Field in Yorktown, VA. Kinda cool living so close to the place the Revolutionary War ended. There are still some well-maintained Virtuals in Colonial Williamsburg, otherwise that would be our first choice

[+Coldgears]

I was on the walkway of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge on saturday looking for info for a possible offset multicache. I think that would be a good spot for a virt, as the view is excellent and is much different than whizzing by in a car. A bridge officer on a bicycle asked me what I was doing since I was stopped and writing numbers down from the electrical boxes, so I explained it to him. He asked if I was going to hide anything, and I told him nothing could, or would be hidden on the bridge. He then asked me if there was a cache in a particular spot which was visible from the walkway and when I told him there used to be, he then knew exactly what "they" were doing. I actually was thinking of flying a kite just before that from there, since it was so windy and didnt see any specific prohibitions listed on the signage but I called to check and was told that it was not allowed.

I was just on the ben franklin bridge yesterday, dang. I would've loved to do that cache.

[+Lil Devil]

There's this really cool wooden telephone pole down the street from me. I want to make that a virtual cache and ask finders to email me the pole number.

 

Then there's this rotting animal carcass back in the woods behind the school. I can ask finders to email me what kind of animal it is/was.

 

Or the penny that's been smashed into the railroad tracks next to the post office. You can still read the year on the penny! I can make it a virtual so people can see it and email me that year. Wouldn't that be cool?

[4wheelin_fool]

I was on the walkway of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge on saturday looking for info for a possible offset multicache. I think that would be a good spot for a virt, as the view is excellent and is much different than whizzing by in a car. A bridge officer on a bicycle asked me what I was doing since I was stopped and writing numbers down from the electrical boxes, so I explained it to him. He asked if I was going to hide anything, and I told him nothing could, or would be hidden on the bridge. He then asked me if there was a cache in a particular spot which was visible from the walkway and when I told him there used to be, he then knew exactly what "they" were doing. I actually was thinking of flying a kite just before that from there, since it was so windy and didnt see any specific prohibitions listed on the signage but I called to check and was told that it was not allowed.

I was just on the ben franklin bridge yesterday, dang. I would've loved to do that cache.

 

I just need to find a good final spot to place it.

[GOF and Bacall]

There's this really cool wooden telephone pole down the street from me. I want to make that a virtual cache and ask finders to email me the pole number.

 

Then there's this rotting animal carcass back in the woods behind the school. I can ask finders to email me what kind of animal it is/was.

 

Or the penny that's been smashed into the railroad tracks next to the post office. You can still read the year on the penny! I can make it a virtual so people can see it and email me that year. Wouldn't that be cool?

 

If they do bring them back I hope they ban you from listing any.

[4wheelin_fool]

How about a virtual which required a pair of binoculars to find? That would be pretty cool. You could also put the requirements in very tiny font so that a magnifying glass would be required also.

[+Gorak]

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

[+roziecakes]

We will have to wait and see I suspect. Im all about Historic Places my self

 

Here's another vote for historic places!!!

[+cache_test_dummies]

I'm going to hold out for the return of hypothetical caches.

 

For those of you who weren't around back then, hypothetical caches were caches that were neither physical nor virtual - they were caches which could have been caches (at least hypothetically), but weren't actually caches in the sense that they weren't actually listed anywhere, except in the minds of those who believed otherwise.

 

I imagine that there would have been quite a stir when new hypothetical caches were no longer being accepted.

 

What made hypothetical caches so great was the unlimited possibility they represented - they could simultaneously be the greatest cache I had ever hypothetically found, and at the same time, completely nonexistent to other people who weren't aware of, or care for, the hypothetical caches I imagined.

 

Also, they were easy to maintain, and didn't block the placement of physical or virtual caches. At least, in theory.

 

Did I say "in theory"? Don't get me started on the return of theoretical and metaphysical caches.

[+tozainamboku]

There's this really cool wooden telephone pole down the street from me. I want to make that a virtual cache and ask finders to email me the pole number.

 

Then there's this rotting animal carcass back in the woods behind the school. I can ask finders to email me what kind of animal it is/was.

 

Or the penny that's been smashed into the railroad tracks next to the post office. You can still read the year on the penny! I can make it a virtual so people can see it and email me that year. Wouldn't that be cool?

Wow!

 

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

Wow!!!

[+WRASTRO]

I may hide a physical container just to confuse people.

[GOF and Bacall]

There's this really cool wooden telephone pole down the street from me. I want to make that a virtual cache and ask finders to email me the pole number.

 

Then there's this rotting animal carcass back in the woods behind the school. I can ask finders to email me what kind of animal it is/was.

 

Or the penny that's been smashed into the railroad tracks next to the post office. You can still read the year on the penny! I can make it a virtual so people can see it and email me that year. Wouldn't that be cool?

Wow!

 

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

Wow!!!

 

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

[+cache_test_dummies]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

[GOF and Bacall]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

 

Well that ain't any better.

[+JBnW]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

 

Well that ain't any better.

Still doesn't fit on one screen.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

 

Well that ain't any better.

I liked it.

 

Think about it. With the use of just a single word, provided in the context of two specific quoted posts, Toz captured the complete essence of the issue which led to the end of new virtual cache listings. He is also likely speaking to the challenge which Groundspeak faces as they seek an appropriate as sustainable implementation of the New Virtual Cache.

 

All with a single word.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I'm going to hold out for the return of hypothetical caches.

 

For those of you who weren't around back then, hypothetical caches were caches that were neither physical nor virtual - they were caches which could have been caches (at least hypothetically), but weren't actually caches in the sense that they weren't actually listed anywhere, except in the minds of those who believed otherwise.

 

I imagine that there would have been quite a stir when new hypothetical caches were no longer being accepted.

 

What made hypothetical caches so great was the unlimited possibility they represented - they could simultaneously be the greatest cache I had ever hypothetically found, and at the same time, completely nonexistent to other people who weren't aware of, or care for, the hypothetical caches I imagined.

 

Also, they were easy to maintain, and didn't block the placement of physical or virtual caches. At least, in theory.

 

Did I say "in theory"? Don't get me started on the return of theoretical and metaphysical caches.

 

That's it! Shark keeps wondering why I buy all of this stuff for caches (See our list of hides) Now they have a name...Hypos!

Beans

[+Sol seaker]

There's this really cool wooden telephone pole down the street from me. I want to make that a virtual cache and ask finders to email me the pole number.

 

Then there's this rotting animal carcass back in the woods behind the school. I can ask finders to email me what kind of animal it is/was.

 

Or the penny that's been smashed into the railroad tracks next to the post office. You can still read the year on the penny! I can make it a virtual so people can see it and email me that year. Wouldn't that be cool?

Wow!

 

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

Wow!!!

 

Right about now Groundspeak is reconsidering....

[+roundnround we go]

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

 

Why wait seems that some of your ideas might work for Earth caches. So you might as well go ahead and start listing them now

 

[*]All local waste treatment plants

[*]Local landfills

[*]Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river

[*]A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent

[*]The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay

[+reedkickball]

I'm going to create a physical cache that's located at a telephone pole that overlooks a rock outcropping. That way, people can find the physical cache, tell whether the rock is sedimentary or not(earthcache), and then send me the number on the telephone pole. That way they can get 3 finds in one spot.

 

Hey, wait a minute, I could create a geotrail of them. A 1000 in a row of the triplets. And then there could be new records made. 3000 in one day! That would be so awesome!

[+tozainamboku]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

 

Well that ain't any better.

I liked it.

 

Think about it. With the use of just a single word, provided in the context of two specific quoted posts, Toz captured the complete essence of the issue which led to the end of new virtual cache listings. He is also likely speaking to the challenge which Groundspeak faces as they seek an appropriate as sustainable implementation of the New Virtual Cache.

 

All with a single word.

Actually it was the two Signal icons. I could give the history of the two icons and why they were appropriate to use here, if that would convince you that this is really toz.

[GOF and Bacall]

Two words! WHo are you and what have you done with our Toz!

Technically, it was one word, said twice.

 

Well that ain't any better.

I liked it.

 

Think about it. With the use of just a single word, provided in the context of two specific quoted posts, Toz captured the complete essence of the issue which led to the end of new virtual cache listings. He is also likely speaking to the challenge which Groundspeak faces as they seek an appropriate as sustainable implementation of the New Virtual Cache.

 

All with a single word.

Actually it was the two Signal icons. I could give the history of the two icons and why they were appropriate to use here, if that would convince you that this is really toz.

 

Do you even know the story of the second one? I'm not sure you used it properly.

 

I'm off to take a break. See you later.

[+narcissa]

I want to wait and see how it's implemented. I'm mostly looking forward to having new virtual geocaches to find. There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

[+Castle Mischief]

I want to wait and see how it's implemented. I'm mostly looking forward to having new virtual geocaches to find. There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

 

Yep. I'm waiting until I actually see how they are implemented before I crank up the angst generator that I keep in the basement.

[+The Jester]

why wuold you have anstg? goecaching is suppoesed to be fun.

Fun? Caching would be fun at:

•All local waste treatment plants

•Local landfills

•A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses

•Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river

•A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent

•The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)

•The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay

•The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)

?????

[+Klondike Mike]

This one sure went down hill fast..

[4wheelin_fool]

This would make a great virtual.

 

 

[Clan Riffster]

What are you guys going to "hide" with the new virtuals?

Ammo cans

[+keehotee]

There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

 

They were never taken away from you - they were moved to Waymarking, but they were always still there.

The only thing taken away from you was the smilie you got for "finding" one.

[cezanne]

There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

 

They were never taken away from you - they were moved to Waymarking, but they were always still there.

The only thing taken away from you was the smilie you got for "finding" one.

 

In case virtuals had existed, I would have set up my newest cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=928f7922-25d6-4550-a902-044043baf0bb

as virtual (in a slightly different way than the current physical cache, but with the same

homework puzzle and essentially the same tasks to be done at Stage 1.

 

Having to hide a container for this cache, was a burden for me and the only part of my cache that I do not like at all. It is

possible to hide a container there, but it does not add anything of attraction to the cache.

 

I am convinced that caches like my example above are not suited for Waymarking. The concept is much closer to a cache than to a waymark.

Not even the surprise category at Waymarking would come close to my concept as I am mixing the puzzle component, with the unknown location

(surprise aspect) and with tasks to be performed at the location (to achieve some learning experience).

 

 

Cezanne

[+edscott]

I'll be ignoring them.

[+geodarts]

It depends on how they are implemented. But with around 150,000 acres of federal lands in my immediate area, where I have been assured by the local administrators that traditional caching will never be allowed on their watch, there are some good starting points.

Edited February 22, 2011 by mulvaney

[+keehotee]

It depends on how they are implemented. But with around 150,000 acres of federal lands in my immediate area, where I have been assured by the local administrators that traditional caching will never be allowed on their watch, there are some good starting points.

 

Have they told you that virtual caches will be allowed?

 

Presumably - in line with Earthcaches - the new virtuals will all require permission before they're listed? I can't see many objections to physical caches that couldn't also be made to fit virtuals....

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Seems some people sure go out of their way to try and spoil the fun other people would like to have.

 

I hate micros, especially when a regular size cache could be hidden in the same spot. I don't log SBA on them, I just bypass them and go look for the type that I enjoy. Doing a pocket query allows for the exclusion of any type of cache that you don't enjoy. Maybe someone should do a thread on all the different ways to avoid doing the caches that you don't like.

 

With all the land around here controled by the NPS and/or listed as Monuments, virtuals will open a great deal of land to caching. I'm sure we can think of a few interesting sites that will be worth the effort to have as a virtual caches.

 

John

[sabrefan7]

I'll be ignoring them.

Just like I ignore any thing with the words "stealth required" A new kind of virtual will be much more interesting , unlike the bazillion throw down micros that litter the land scape

Edited February 22, 2011 by sabrefan7

[+tozainamboku]

There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

 

They were never taken away from you - they were moved to Waymarking, but they were always still there.

The only thing taken away from you was the smilie you got for "finding" one.

I can't believe you responded to narcissa by telling her to waymark.

 

Waymarking was developed to solve other problems. It concentrated on locationless caches but it also addressed the problem of people submitting virtual caches in order to share a neat location and not really to serve as a substitute in a location where a physical cache couldn't be hidden. In the end no one was able to come up with a definition that Jeremy would accept that distinguished these "waymarks" from the virtual caches that so many people enjoyed, so he grandfathered the existing virtuals and told us that if we wanted to create a virtual to create a waymark instead. Many people looked at what was on Waymarking and their first response was "these aren't virtual caches". In addition, many found that it was hard to use the Waymarking site the way they used geocaching in order to find virtual caches while they were out geocaching. That led to geocachers abandoning Waymarking.

 

I still believe that geocachers could have carved out a niche within Waymarking by defining categories that approximated what they liked about virtual caches. I started this with the Best Kept Secrets category. It encourages listing that have very much the flavor of the virtual caches I enjoyed most. These took me to interesting places that I would not have known about except for geocaching. They also make me search for a specific object and answer questions about it. With Best Kept Secrets, the waymark page doesn't have to tell me everything about the location so there can be a surprise when I get there.

 

I imagined that other categories could have been developed that emphasized aspects of virtuals that other people found enjoyable. Unfortunately, for various reasons, this idea didn't not catch on with many geocachers. Waymarking became what it is because the geocaching community abandoned it. Yet a segment continued to keep asking for virtuals to be reinstated. Now, Grounspeak has indicated that they have a plan. But, as with Waymarking, they seem to want to do the development without any input from the geocachers asking for it. It will likely disappoint some people as much as Waymarking did. And it is just as likely that instead of working with Grounspeak to make the new system work, we will continue to have threads to "bring back the real virtuals".

Edited February 22, 2011 by tozainamboku

[GOF and Bacall]

Sorry Toz, but Waymarking just don't cut it. It's just too cluttered and hard to navigate. When you search by location you often end up with page after of results that are all the same thing. What's with that? Why not list a waymark and then link the one into whatever categories it fits? Bet whatever, that's a different conversation. By my choice I would not bring back the virtuals. But the only thing I really don't want to see is every McD's dumpster and Wally World cart return listed as a virtual. I know, I know, But I want to see raspberry, pineapple, and tutti-fruity. Heck, even vanilla would be ok. Lots of flavors is good. But could we please avoid earwax, sweat-sock, and vomit?

[+narcissa]

There are so many possibilities for this cache type and it's really a shame that they were taken from us for all this time.

 

They were never taken away from you - they were moved to Waymarking, but they were always still there.

The only thing taken away from you was the smilie you got for "finding" one.

 

I'm not concerned about so-called "smileys" - if I was, I'd have a heck of a lot more finds by now.

 

That other website doesn't have virtual geocaches. It has waymarks, and even if I could figure out how to use the site, I can't include waymarks in pocket queries which makes them useless to me. I didn't invest in a top-of-the-line GPSr so I can waste my time fussing with a site that doesn't support it.

 

I'm very much looking forward to seeing new virtual geocaches on Geocaching.com.

[+chasclifton]

I have several ideas for urban Virtuals! These are just a few...

 

• All local waste treatment plants
  
• Local landfills
  
• A series of all of the local group homes and half-way houses
  
• Some of the well-used illegal dumping sites along the river
  
• A couple of the former salmon creeks that are now poisoned from industrial effluent
  
• The soup kitchens on the downtown east side (poorest postal code in Canada)
  
• The City of Vancouver's "unofficial" raw sewage outfall into English Bay
  
• The spot at Vancouver Airport where Robert Dziekanski was publicly "executed" by the RCMP (while being filmed!)
  

 

Can't wait!

 

 

I am getting some ideas ...

[+narcissa]

Waymarking became what it is because the geocaching community abandoned it.

 

Geocachers abandoned/avoided that other site because it's horrible and difficult to use. Blaming geocachers for the failure of that poorly designed travesty is ridiculous.

[+tozainamboku]

Waymarking became what it is because the geocaching community abandoned it.

 

Geocachers abandoned/avoided that other site because it's horrible and difficult to use. Blaming geocachers for the failure of that poorly designed travesty is ridiculous.

An unfortunate choice of words on my part in the fourth paragraph. At the end of the second paragraph you will see that I said geocachers abandoned the Waymarking site for precisely the reasons that you gave.

 

My intent in the fourth paragraph was that if geocachers had stayed involved with Waymarking over the past 5 years we would have seen the development of categories that supported what people enjoyed about virtuals (other than the smiley), the ability to download these places in a manner compatible with pocket queries (perhaps even as part of our geocaching pocket queries), and better integration between Waymarking and geocaching. Instead, because the geocaching community had decided that Waymarking was a failure based on how it appeared in the early days, there was little geocacher input. Changes made to Waymarking have been mostly to address the concerns of waymarkers who use the site to build catalogs of places in various categories and not as way to get people to visit interesting places where physical caches can't be hidden. Best Kept Secrets sits there (along with a few other fun creative categories) looking like the red-hair step child of Waymarking with only 62 waymarks because all the geocachers who claim to want to hide virtual caches haven't take advantage of the ability to hide the waymarks in categories that fit their need better than the ordinary Waymarking categories. If just a fraction of the effort spent in the the last 5 years to bring back virtuals were directed at changing Waymarking or carving out a niche for virtual caches it would have already happened, IMO.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Finding a waymark is akin to finding a "log" on a locationless cache instead of finding the target item of the locationless cache. Why would someone want a pocket query of the find logs of such locationless caches? Waymarking categories are the old locationless caches and the waymarks of those categories are not virtual caches, they are the found it logs of said categories.

 

For instance, if there is a category for "flagpole toppers other than the globe or eagles" and someone logs a lightning bolt, that lightning bolt is not a virtual cache, it is a found it log. People don't want to "find / visit" the same lightning bolt waymark, they want to find their own topper whether it is a can of beans or a cross or some other topper. The finds may be good waymarks, but they are not virtual caches.

 

Will there be some poor virtuals? Most definitely! Will there be some bad virtuals? Yes, but that is what the SBA could be used for. If the virtual is that bad, just post "Needs Archived" and explain why and let the reviewer handle it.

 

We will just sit back and wait to see what the requirements for the new virtuals will be, before deciding whether or not to place one.

 

One thing is sure, an average virtual beats a micro just about everyday.

 

John

[AZcachemeister]

I think I'll wait until it actually happens before I invest much thought into it.

[+sbell111]

Presumably - in line with Earthcaches - the new virtuals will all require permission before they're listed?

I doubt it. TPTB have expressed that requiring permission to NOT hide something in a place that is legal to be doesn't make sense.

[cezanne]

My intent in the fourth paragraph was that if geocachers had stayed involved with Waymarking over the past 5 years we would have seen the development of categories that supported what people enjoyed about virtuals (other than the smiley),

 

I do not agree at all with you on this aspect. You might be right with respect to the development of categories that capture what you enjoy about virtual caches.

I am familiar with your Best Kept Secrets category and other waymark categories which contain locations that I regard as worth to visit, but which to not satisfy my idea of

a virtual cache. I could not think of a reasonable category one could try to suggest to integrate virtual caches of the type I have in mind (I mentioned further above my last cache as example of a cache that I would have liked to set up as virtual in a slightly different way than its current form). Waymarking is much better suited to deal with virtual traditionals than with virtual multi-stage caches with and without mystery components.

 

I agree with you, however, on another aspect. I am pretty sure that the way virtuals will return will leave many unhappy (most likely myself included).

 

Cezanne

Edited February 23, 2011 by cezanne