LeapFrogging and Container Swapping

[knowschad]

Would you mind posting this in a new thread? I have been curious about the situation since the other thread was closed down. Hopefully a new thread simply revealing this news will be treated better and not become a hotbed of opinions.

Someone will start one, as we seem to get a new one each week. At this point I believe most minds are pretty much made up.

 

I'm not suggesting another thread on the E.T. Trail or on power caching... just an update on the status.

[+Don_J]

 

Once we got home, one of our crew placed his own cache with the snake in the can. It's still on my watchlist and provides much entertainment.

 

I am so doing this. In fact, I may even write "use stealth" in the description.

 

Back OT-I plan on visiting the desert someday soon to run both trails, find other caches, hike a bit, and enjoy some time away from home. I don't plan to leapfrog nor play container monte. Nor will Monte be riding with us. But put it all in perspective-there are fewer than 12 cachers having an active discussion on the topic. How many of you plan to find these caches? How many cachers who plan to find these caches are aware of this thread? How many of them care what is being said in this thread? How many cachers who aren't planning to do these power trails, don't read the forums, and don't care about this discussion? Whose geocaching experience should Groundspeak be concerned about the most?

 

 

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

[+M 5]

 

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

 

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

[+Don_J]

 

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

 

Why, because 12 people on a forum demand it?

 

More people have found the caches in the last week, then we have people complaining about them.

 

The two "trails" where this is occurring, the cache owners have endorsed it. Right or wrong, I highly doubt the guy from Ireland that logged today is going to go home and do the same thing in his downtown area.

 

I don't agree with these practices, and I wouldn't do them my self, but this doomsday logic displayed by many in this thread is beyond me.

[+M 5]

 

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

 

Why, because 12 people on a forum demand it?

 

More people have found the caches in the last week, then we have people complaining about them.

 

The two "trails" where this is occurring, the cache owners have endorsed it. Right or wrong, I highly doubt the guy from Ireland that logged today is going to go home and do the same thing in his downtown area.

 

I don't agree with these practices, and I wouldn't do them my self, but this doomsday logic displayed by many in this thread is beyond me.

 

We have plenty of powertrails near me, and throwdowns are becoming more common. This isn't doomsday as you termed it, but reality. The same thing has happend with short, C&P and blank logs and also Urban micros. Things become more common, and then the new cachers follow suit. Not hard to understand. A new cacher starts up, sees the easy smileys to get his/her numbers up. Does a powertrail that is all easy micro PNGs with everyone throwing down caches, leapfrogging, cache swapping and leaving bare minimum logs, and then they continue on using some of these practices. I have come to find out that maybe not all areas are having these power trails popping up, but we have them all over here, so it may be affecting my area more than others.

[knowschad]

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

 

Why, because 12 people on a forum demand it?

 

More people have found the caches in the last week, then we have people complaining about them.

The two "trails" where this is occurring, the cache owners have endorsed it. Right or wrong, I highly doubt the guy from Ireland that logged today is going to go home and do the same thing in his downtown area.

 

I don't agree with these practices, and I wouldn't do them my self, but this doomsday logic displayed by many in this thread is beyond me.

VERY few geocachers even read this forum, much less post their opinions here. But if I were to look at this thread, it seems exceedingly clear to me that the vast number of cachers that do post here and have chosen to put their opinions on the line by naming them in this thread do NOT approve of cache swapping and leap frogging. I would dare to call it an almost overwhelming majority.

 

That said, thanks for your differing opinion. But please don't isrespect the many that have voiced a contrary opinion here.

[+Don_J]

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

 

Why, because 12 people on a forum demand it?

 

More people have found the caches in the last week, then we have people complaining about them.

The two "trails" where this is occurring, the cache owners have endorsed it. Right or wrong, I highly doubt the guy from Ireland that logged today is going to go home and do the same thing in his downtown area.

 

I don't agree with these practices, and I wouldn't do them my self, but this doomsday logic displayed by many in this thread is beyond me.

VERY few geocachers even read this forum, much less post their opinions here. But if I were to look at this thread, it seems exceedingly clear to me that the vast number of cachers that do post here and have chosen to put their opinions on the line by naming them in this thread do NOT approve of cache swapping and leap frogging. I would dare to call it an almost overwhelming majority.

 

That said, thanks for your differing opinion. But please don't isrespect the many that have voiced a contrary opinion here.

 

Wow! I seem to be really misunderstood lately.

 

I never meant to (d)isrepect any one, and I have no idea which of my opinions is differing.

 

My points are clear.

 

1. I don't agree that leapfrogging, or cache switching is proper geocaching. In fact, I have passed up on a trip where this was obviously going to be involved.

 

2. I think that almost all cachers that have done these trails and practiced these controversial practices realize that they not supposed to go home and move the local LPC from Walmart to Rite-Aid. This is not the end of Geocaching as we know it. It's going to rain Saturday, but I still have a 12 mole loop trail in my gunsights.

 

3. A vocal rejection of such practices by 12 forum members does not outweigh the fact that hundreds of cachers from all over the world are enjoying these caches, life, and each other.

 

Right or wrong, a lot of people are having a whole lot of fun

Edited February 25, 2011 by Don_J

[+tozainamboku]

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

 

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

I haven't seen evidence of widespread container swapping at any caches except a few power trails where the cache owner has allowed these practices. When people start to commonly leave a new cache with a presigned log and take the old cache, let me know. I have experienced some leapfrogging with a group where the cars leap frogged one another and some cachers logged finds for caches they didn't find. However since these caches were actually found by the cachers in the other car, the practice has a negligible effect on other cachers. The main argument is that the extra logs push older "legitimate" logs off of a pocket query, and the general comment that is seems silly to log a cache you didn't find as the points don't matter.

We have plenty of powertrails near me, and throwdowns are becoming more common. This isn't doomsday as you termed it, but reality. The same thing has happend with short, C&P and blank logs and also Urban micros. Things become more common, and then the new cachers follow suit. Not hard to understand. A new cacher starts up, sees the easy smileys to get his/her numbers up. Does a powertrail that is all easy micro PNGs with everyone throwing down caches, leapfrogging, cache swapping and leaving bare minimum logs, and then they continue on using some of these practices. I have come to find out that maybe not all areas are having these power trails popping up, but we have them all over here, so it may be affecting my area more than others.

I don't understand.

 

Is there a problem that there are powertrails near you? That's too bad, I had a problem because someone hid a challenge cache near me that I will never do. When I complained on the forums I got no sympathy, so now I stopped complaining because some people hide caches I don't want to find. If possible, I will ignore these caches.

 

Or is the problem that throwdowns are becoming common place? I tend to doubt that they are really that common, but perhaps they are. I'm sure I have found replacement containers a few time. Generally I had just as much fun as I would have finding the original container left by the cache owner. Sure, sometimes there may have been a clever hide or exceptional container that the throwdown didn't replicate. But this is rare and certainly not the case for powertrail caches. And finding the replacement is certainly more fun than having to DNF the cache because it is missing. However, sometimes I have had real fun; I find both the throwdown and the original container. Once I even found a replacement left by the cache owner right next to the original container they couldn't find. I see this as part of the game. Sometimes there is more than one container, and sometimes it is because someone decided to replace a cache for the owner since they were sure it was missing. The most I can accuse these people of is being a little arrogant thinking that their DNF means the cache was missing and needed to be replaced.

 

I sorry that you have to question the motivation of people who do these things. You say they see the easy smiley and do this to get their numbers up. If they really are doing it only to pump up their numbers, then do what I do; stop being impressed by someone's find count. I'm mostly impressed by people who are having so much fun geocaching that they don't have time to criticize other people on the forums. If these are practices that truly effect your ability to have fun geocaching then make an argument to convince me this is the case. Just saying it's against so made up rule is not going to change my mind and most likely will not get Grounspeak to make a rule they could actually enforce.

[+tozainamboku]

It's going to rain Saturday, but I still have a 12 mole loop trail in my gunsights.

Where is this trail with one dozen subterranean dwelling mammals? You may be bringing a gun, but I prefer using a mallet to whack them. Can I come along if it doesn't rain?

[+Don_J]

It's going to rain Saturday, but I still have a 12 mole loop trail in my gunsights.

Where is this trail with one dozen subterranean dwelling mammals? You may be bringing a gun, but I prefer using a mallet to whack them. Can I come along if it doesn't rain?

 

Happy Camp/Valley, N of Moorpark CA.

 

But, considering that the snow level is supposed to drop to 1000' in Southern California, (something that has never occurred in recorded history), I have other plans. It includes playing in the snow.

 

Oh, just got it. "mole". I just watched a rerun of "Bones" where there was a whole society of Mole People. I can't do it. I'm scared.

[+M 5]

I almost wrote something similar when the thread detoured to the "we are in the majority, so we must be right" stage.

 

Which is exactly why Groundspeak should take action before this stuff becomes more commonplace or even standard practice.

I haven't seen evidence of widespread container swapping at any caches except a few power trails where the cache owner has allowed these practices. When people start to commonly leave a new cache with a presigned log and take the old cache, let me know. I have experienced some leapfrogging with a group where the cars leap frogged one another and some cachers logged finds for caches they didn't find. However since these caches were actually found by the cachers in the other car, the practice has a negligible effect on other cachers. The main argument is that the extra logs push older "legitimate" logs off of a pocket query, and the general comment that is seems silly to log a cache you didn't find as the points don't matter.

We have plenty of powertrails near me, and throwdowns are becoming more common. This isn't doomsday as you termed it, but reality. The same thing has happend with short, C&P and blank logs and also Urban micros. Things become more common, and then the new cachers follow suit. Not hard to understand. A new cacher starts up, sees the easy smileys to get his/her numbers up. Does a powertrail that is all easy micro PNGs with everyone throwing down caches, leapfrogging, cache swapping and leaving bare minimum logs, and then they continue on using some of these practices. I have come to find out that maybe not all areas are having these power trails popping up, but we have them all over here, so it may be affecting my area more than others.

I don't understand.

 

Is there a problem that there are powertrails near you? That's too bad, I had a problem because someone hid a challenge cache near me that I will never do. When I complained on the forums I got no sympathy, so now I stopped complaining because some people hide caches I don't want to find. If possible, I will ignore these caches.

 

Or is the problem that throwdowns are becoming common place? I tend to doubt that they are really that common, but perhaps they are. I'm sure I have found replacement containers a few time. Generally I had just as much fun as I would have finding the original container left by the cache owner. Sure, sometimes there may have been a clever hide or exceptional container that the throwdown didn't replicate. But this is rare and certainly not the case for powertrail caches. And finding the replacement is certainly more fun than having to DNF the cache because it is missing. However, sometimes I have had real fun; I find both the throwdown and the original container. Once I even found a replacement left by the cache owner right next to the original container they couldn't find. I see this as part of the game. Sometimes there is more than one container, and sometimes it is because someone decided to replace a cache for the owner since they were sure it was missing. The most I can accuse these people of is being a little arrogant thinking that their DNF means the cache was missing and needed to be replaced.

 

I sorry that you have to question the motivation of people who do these things. You say they see the easy smiley and do this to get their numbers up. If they really are doing it only to pump up their numbers, then do what I do; stop being impressed by someone's find count. I'm mostly impressed by people who are having so much fun geocaching that they don't have time to criticize other people on the forums. If these are practices that truly effect your ability to have fun geocaching then make an argument to convince me this is the case. Just saying it's against so made up rule is not going to change my mind and most likely will not get Grounspeak to make a rule they could actually enforce.

 

After reading your responses in this thread, I have to agree....with the bolded part.

Edited February 25, 2011 by M 5

[+Trucker Lee]

I prefer to cache for fun and exercise. I am not so anal about my numbers that I would practice either of these techniques. Cache swapping invalidates the signatures already there, as conceivably a cache found along a highway could end up several positions away placing in the position of a cache none of those whom signed have found. Leapfrogging seems like a silly thing as you have now found and visited only half the caches.

 

Come on folks! Relax, take some time to look at the scenery, enjoy yourself. Crunch the numbers at work, where you get paid for being anal!

[+wimseyguy]

Must_resist_inserting_inappropriate proctologist joke here.

[4wheelin_fool]

.....

I sorry that you have to question the motivation of people who do these things. You say they see the easy smiley and do this to get their numbers up. If they really are doing it only to pump up their numbers, then do what I do; stop being impressed by someone's find count. I'm mostly impressed by people who are having so much fun geocaching that they don't have time to criticize other people on the forums. If these are practices that truly effect your ability to have fun geocaching then make an argument to convince me this is the case. Just saying it's against so made up rule is not going to change my mind and most likely will not get Grounspeak to make a rule they could actually enforce.

 

It's the carryover effect that will affect other cachers and their hides. If 4 people want to split up and have each person find every 4th cache on a powertrail, but sign their "Team X" name to the logbook it does not affect anyone.

 

However, history shows that these practices will become more popular, increase in frequency, and carryover to other types of caches.

 

Team X does all of the powertrails in the area and get hungry for more, and decides to cross off all of the caches in a specific area. At an event they invite 6 more members to join in to help. The 10 people meet up an a diner beforehand but only have a limited time to complete 300 caches. Each cacher chooses 30 caches to find individually, but all sign Team X to the logbook. They run out and each find 30 caches, sign Team X in the logbook and then return home to log 300 as found with a generic copy and paste log. Since they are in a hurry, they are under pressure to do the caches quickly. A few cachers might ignore any muggles, not rehide the caches very well and leave some caches out in the open. The next week several of the caches turn up missing. The cache owners notice that Team X was there last, and sends out an e-mail to inquire where they had left the cache. Since only one person actually found it, but 10 people logged it, it may take some digging to find out who knows anything about it. However the response is that they did so many caches that day, they don't remember anything about each hide..

 

Many of the cache owners may have hidden the caches to showcase the history of an area, a scenic view, or spent some time creating unique camoflage for it to blend it to a high traffic area. But now the competitive cachers fly into town and simple view the caches as a number, and nothing else. None of them really care about the hide, the camo, or the view. The practice becomes popular, and newer cachers are then indoctrinated into the system. Now these practices have always occurred since the beginning of caching, but once they become more and more popular, the frequency will only increase. At some point there should be a realization that it has gone too far, and an effort try to discourage it from spreading to other hides. The Lost and Found logs are a step forward towards this, but the competitive caching should be encouraged to stay limited to powertrails. They need to create a unique icon, or attribute to show that "these caches are different".

[jholly]

.....

<snip>

 

It's the carryover effect that will affect other cachers and their hides. If 4 people want to split up and have each person find every 4th cache on a powertrail, but sign their "Team X" name to the logbook it does not affect anyone.

 

However, history shows that these practices will become more popular, increase in frequency, and carryover to other types of caches.

<snip>

 

What make you think this type of caching was invented on the ET Highway? It existed long before the ET Highway but was only documented on the ET Highway. It has been going on for a long time and will continue to happen. The ET Highway had nothing to do with it other that it finally got documented.

[4wheelin_fool]

.....

<snip>

 

It's the carryover effect that will affect other cachers and their hides. If 4 people want to split up and have each person find every 4th cache on a powertrail, but sign their "Team X" name to the logbook it does not affect anyone.

 

However, history shows that these practices will become more popular, increase in frequency, and carryover to other types of caches.

<snip>

 

What make you think this type of caching was invented on the ET Highway? It existed long before the ET Highway but was only documented on the ET Highway. It has been going on for a long time and will continue to happen. The ET Highway had nothing to do with it other that it finally got documented.

 

I never mentioned the ET highway. You missed this part:

 

Now these practices have always occurred since the beginning of caching, but once they become more and more popular, the frequency will only increase.

 

I am aware that it will continue, what I am advocating is some kind of icon or attribute to encourage it to be limited to powertails.

[+currykev]

Can I please ask that the next team to do the ET series put my name on the logs too.

Seems like I don't have to be there to find em.

[+northernpenguin]

Can I please ask that the next team to do the ET series put my name on the logs too.

Seems like I don't have to be there to find em.

 

Leapfrogging, Team logging ... I'm not going to get upset about that. That affects mainly the players involved and those who would compare stats with them. Since there's no "grand prize" for finding the most caches, it's all filed under "Meh. Got other things to think about".

 

Actually, I'm guilty of group logging - I've gone out on some trails with groups of people and while all of us are standing at GZ we log as a group to conserve space in the cache. We've had local COs actually request our group do that to save maintenance on the nanos and micros.

 

Container swapping affects other cachers negatively, and that is what gets my back up. I don't really care about if the cache should be archived because the CO "allows" it or not. What I care about is that my physical log entries are not randomly moving around on me (CO cache verification) and that nobody gets it in their head to swap one of my cache containers. I put out good quality caches and the last thing I want to see is my well camo'd ammo can turn into someone's left over margarine container for speed of logging purposes.

[jholly]

 

I am aware that it will continue, what I am advocating is some kind of icon or attribute to encourage it to be limited to powertails.

I see zero probability that an icon is going to control logging behavior. If someone has done this type of logging before the icon, the presence or absence of the icon is not going to change how they log, be it power trails or otherwise.

Edited February 25, 2011 by jholly

[4wheelin_fool]

 

I am aware that it will continue, what I am advocating is some kind of icon or attribute to encourage it to be limited to powertails.

I see zero probability that an icon is going to control logging behavior. If someone has done this type of logging before the icon, the presence or absence of the icon is not going to change how they log, be it power trails or otherwise.

 

Attitudes change frequently based on environmental factors. If someone develops a habit it may be more difficult for them to change. However the attribute would guide newer members to the caches that it is welcomed at.

Edited February 25, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool

[+wimseyguy]

<snip> It's the carryover effect that will affect other cachers and their hides. If 4 people want to split up and have each person find every 4th cache on a powertrail, but sign their "Team X" name to the logbook it does not affect anyone.

 

However, history shows that these practices will become more popular, increase in frequency, and carryover to other types of caches.

 

<snip> At some point there should be a realization that it has gone too far, and an effort try to discourage it from spreading to other hides. The Lost and Found logs are a step forward towards this, but the competitive caching should be encouraged to stay limited to powertrails. They need to create a unique icon, or attribute to show that "these caches are different".

 

I'm gonna throw the red bovine flag on this statement.

Where is this history that you claim shows the spread of these unsavory practices?

Who is learning from this and repeating this behavior?

 

Have you seen many containers signed on the outside since the DRR fiasco of 2006? I haven't.

One group of cachers thought it was a good idea, and no one agreed.

 

Most cachers I know and see observe sensible logging practices, as that is what is right, and that is how they have FUN. If a very small majority are doing it another way, it doesn't seem to be contagious.

 

And adding a unique icon would only encourage it more. Everyone knows we all want more icons.

Unless you are viewing this icon as a Scarlett Letter?

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Actually, I'm guilty of group logging - I've gone out on some trails with groups of people and while all of us are standing at GZ we log as a group to conserve space in the cache. We've had local COs actually request our group do that to save maintenance on the nanos and micros.

 

That's a far cry from two groups of people hitting every other cache to speed things up. I routine go out with a group, and we log under a single moniker - usually different for each run, based on our moods.

[+Sol seaker]

<snip> It's the carryover effect that will affect other cachers and their hides. If 4 people want to split up and have each person find every 4th cache on a powertrail, but sign their "Team X" name to the logbook it does not affect anyone.

 

However, history shows that these practices will become more popular, increase in frequency, and carryover to other types of caches.

 

<snip> At some point there should be a realization that it has gone too far, and an effort try to discourage it from spreading to other hides. The Lost and Found logs are a step forward towards this, but the competitive caching should be encouraged to stay limited to powertrails. They need to create a unique icon, or attribute to show that "these caches are different".

 

I'm gonna throw the red bovine flag on this statement.

Where is this history that you claim shows the spread of these unsavory practices?

Who is learning from this and repeating this behavior?

 

Have you seen many containers signed on the outside since the DRR fiasco of 2006? I haven't.

One group of cachers thought it was a good idea, and no one agreed.

 

Most cachers I know and see observe sensible logging practices, as that is what is right, and that is how they have FUN. If a very small majority are doing it another way, it doesn't seem to be contagious.

 

And adding a unique icon would only encourage it more. Everyone knows we all want more icons.

Unless you are viewing this icon as a Scarlett Letter?

 

At least some of these practices have gone on for years around here.

 

For many years groups have gotten together in WA for "cache machines." I have no idea if they do these all over or not. I would imagine it is done elsewhere, although I haven't hear people talk about it yet.

 

This is where around 100 people get together and do all of the city caches in an area (excluding some tough ones, puzzle and multi's, in other words, they get all the quick ones in an area). They all do them in the same order. They often work as teams in groups of 2-4 or more.

 

The one I did with them they did not have any specific logging practices or rules around logging. Each team was left on their own as far as whether they logged caches that they were not near. It is common practice at these for there to be a navigator and a driver who may not always get out of the car.

 

I found it a lot of fun, and have no judgment about how people do cache machines. They are a type of fun all unto themselves.

 

I had fun when I did one, but it's not my type of caching, so I probably won't do it again.

 

I see it as a whole different game. I'm not surprised it's gotten it's own set of rules, or no rules.

[+steben6]

In answer to the original questions, no and no. The practices are dishonest. Cachers who practice leap-frogging are only cheating themselves (to what end, we wonder?? - are there prizes at the end of life for those who die with the most caches?), but those who swap caches really burn me because they mess with logs from other honest cachers who played fair and signed the caches they actually found in the place they were originally hidden. IMHO

[+BluesHiker]

Neither option sounds like much fun.

[+Smokey Bear Collector]

Leapfrogging appears to be cheating. It appears to be taking credit for finding caches that one didn't even hunt.

Cacheswapping...if you have time to find and swap caches, then you have time to simply sign the existing log.

[knowschad]

Wow! I seem to be really misunderstood lately.

It's going to rain Saturday, but I still have a 12 mole loop trail in my gunsights.

 

Why do you want to shoot moles?

 

[jholly]

Wow! I seem to be really misunderstood lately.

It's going to rain Saturday, but I still have a 12 mole loop trail in my gunsights.

 

Why do you want to shoot moles?

 

Well at least he is not shooting hamsters.