Caches too promotional?

[+Da Krewe]

Does anyone else have this problem? We started our first series called "Gitcha Grub On" as a series of our favorite restaurants. It wasn't until we got to the 16th cache in the series we started being told our caches were promotional. We never mention the name of the restaurant, and in some cases the cache is actually between a few restaurants. I've seen caches that people have to go inside a business & interact with employees - which is word for word not allowed according to what our reviewer quoted me of the guidelines. Are they picking on us or am I missing something here?

[+GeoGeeBee]

The whole idea sounds too commercial, to me. Of course I can't see the listings that are being turned down, but some of the verbiage on the ones that have been published seems questionable to me. Between the name of the series and the bit about "we polled our family and friends to compile a list of the best places to eat," I'm surprised any of them got published.

[+StarBrand]

The guidelines did not always have the commercial wording in them. Older caches were grandfathered in.

 

These days - the reviewers tend to enforce the commercial guidelines rather strictly.

 

Work with the reviewer and take a peek at the reorganized guidelines under the commercial section for full information on getting a cache near a business published. In short, you cannot name the business in the listing, link to it in any way, invite cachers to go in, encourage any interaction, has overtones of advertising or marketing or promotion.

 

Here is a link: http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307

[+Ecylram]

Does anyone else have this problem? We started our first series called "Gitcha Grub On" as a series of our favorite restaurants. It wasn't until we got to the 16th cache in the series we started being told our caches were promotional. We never mention the name of the restaurant, and in some cases the cache is actually between a few restaurants. I've seen caches that people have to go inside a business & interact with employees - which is word for word not allowed according to what our reviewer quoted me of the guidelines. Are they picking on us or am I missing something here?

 

Your reviewer is correct. Groundspeak just reworked the guidelines and the commercial cache section was further clarified in the process. I'm sure if you work with your Reviewer you'll be able to get your cache published. It just takes a little creativity.

[+MoonCatKDT & Peanut]

There is a series of LPC's around here that all focus on the same coffee shop. It never says anything about it, but after the 3-4th we realized there was a pattern.

 

I don't find it promotional but at the same time, who hasn't seen 15 coffee shops in one day's drive?

[Mr.Yuck]

Actually, I think it was the new "you can't hide more than 20 parking lot micros in your first 3 months of Geocaching" rule. They just added that in the latest Guideline Reorganization.

 

OK, no they didn't, just kidding.

[+briansnat]

There is sometimes a fine line between a cache that is considered promotional and one that isn't. Of course blatant advertising is out, this includes using the name in the title or mentioning it in the text. A requirement to enter the business would also likely be considered commercial.

 

Similarly, an endorsement would probably be considered commercial. If you put something on the page like "My friends and I eat here regularly, Be sure to try the clam chowder". it is likely to trigger the commercial alarm in the mind of the reviewer.

 

Taking a quick look at your published "Gitcha Grub On" series, I'd say they are mighty close to toeing the commercial line as is, so it wouldn't take much to push one over the line.

 

No you're not being picked on. It appears that you've been getting a bit more effusive in your descriptions of the eateries with your later submissions.

 

Keep to the text that you've been using for your early caches in the series and you shouldn't have any problems

Edited February 16, 2011 by briansnat

[+TerraViators]

It seems to me that your caches are okay. If you're not adding the restaurant name in the cache at any point, it's not promotional. Just because you happen to place it near a restaurant, it doesn't mean your promoting the business.

[+wimseyguy]

Why are you even trying to push the edge of the guideline by promoting these commercial establishments with a FREE geocaching.com listing? If they want to buy advertising space on the website they can contact the business office and make a deal. So what if they are your favorite places to eat? I own a restaurant and catering business, many of the local cachers know this, but I would never ever consider driving business here with my geocaching.

[+Da Krewe]

To those with actual insight, thank you for your answers. As for the others, way to make a newcomer feel welcome!

[+GeoGeeBee]

To those with actual insight, thank you for your answers. As for the others, way to make a newcomer feel welcome!

We generally don't think of people with 300 finds and 28 hides as "newcomers." You checked a box that said you read the guidelines, 28 times (at least). Then you came here and asked us if we thought your cache series violated the guidelines.

 

It's not our fault you didn't like the answer.

[+Da Krewe]

To those with actual insight, thank you for your answers. As for the others, way to make a newcomer feel welcome!

We generally don't think of people with 300 finds and 28 hides as "newcomers." You checked a box that said you read the guidelines, 28 times (at least). Then you came here and asked us if we thought your cache series violated the guidelines.

 

It's not our fault you didn't like the answer.

 

Actually, GeoGeeBee, you are one of the ones who actually gave me an answer. While it may not have been what I wanted to hear, I appreciated it nonetheless. As for being a newcomer, I meant to the forums. Luckily I have thick skin & will be just fine

 

*Mrs Da Krewe*

[+narcissa]

A lot of geocachers take a dim view of commercial caches. I enjoy this game because it offers a bit of an escape from the rat race, so it's always a bit of a disappointment when a cache seems to be advertising to me.

[uperdooper]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

[+narcissa]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

 

This old "I don't see how it's different than..." canard is pretty weak and seems, at best, incredibly disingenuous.

 

The commercial guidelines are not as complicated as some people make them out to be.

 

Simply placing a cache in close proximity to a business isn't necessarily commercial (though it's probably not a great idea from a permission standpoint).

 

Mentioning the business by name or extolling the virtues of the business in the cache description is commercial.

 

There's really no reason why a cache owner needs to dig in his/her heels over the issue - be creative, work with the reviewer, get it sorted out. There are lots of really interesting places that also happen to be businesses, and it is very possible to make great caches without making fellow geocachers feel like you're exploiting them for commercial gain.

[Mr.Yuck]

To those with actual insight, thank you for your answers. As for the others, way to make a newcomer feel welcome!

We generally don't think of people with 300 finds and 28 hides as "newcomers." You checked a box that said you read the guidelines, 28 times (at least). Then you came here and asked us if we thought your cache series violated the guidelines.

 

It's not our fault you didn't like the answer.

 

Actually, GeoGeeBee, you are one of the ones who actually gave me an answer. While it may not have been what I wanted to hear, I appreciated it nonetheless. As for being a newcomer, I meant to the forums. Luckily I have thick skin & will be just fine

 

*Mrs Da Krewe*

 

Oh, that was probably me with my joke about posting 20+ parking lot micros in your first 3 months of Geocaching was prohibited.

 

OK, I will be serious here. I actually did originally think the reviewer was "picking" on you, over placing way too many caches, almost all of the parking lot variety, way too fast. But they all have extremely long, drawn out cache descriptions, and do, on a second look, seem to be promoting visiting these establishments, although not naming them. All while most of the other parking lot micros in the same City usually go with the 5 word "quick grab, watch for muggles" type cache page. You could easily have 15+ Git your grub on caches with those type of cache descriptions.

[uperdooper]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

 

This old "I don't see how it's different than..." canard is pretty weak and seems, at best, incredibly disingenuous.

 

The commercial guidelines are not as complicated as some people make them out to be.

 

Simply placing a cache in close proximity to a business isn't necessarily commercial (though it's probably not a great idea from a permission standpoint).

 

Mentioning the business by name or extolling the virtues of the business in the cache description is commercial.

 

There's really no reason why a cache owner needs to dig in his/her heels over the issue - be creative, work with the reviewer, get it sorted out. There are lots of really interesting places that also happen to be businesses, and it is very possible to make great caches without making fellow geocachers feel like you're exploiting them for commercial gain.

i can't see where the business names are mentioned in the caches and extolling the virtues of a business nearby is not commercial in my opinion.

 

people need to stop getting their short curlies in a bunch about this. if a person feels exploited then don't do the cache. no one is forcing anyone to spend money to get these caches.

[+Castle Mischief]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

 

This old "I don't see how it's different than..." canard is pretty weak and seems, at best, incredibly disingenuous.

 

 

That's like the fifth disingenuous canard this week! They must be in season!

[+sTeamTraen]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

The Cracker Barrel caches were published with permission of Groundspeak. It's entirely possible that a business transaction between the two companies took place.

 

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, Groundspeak loves advertising. There's an ad on every page of the site. What they don't like is having their site and bandwidth being used to advertise (explicitly or effectively) products and services without them getting paid for it. That seems reasonable to me.

[+CacheKidz!]

I've had a couple similar concerns with reviewers with caches I was listing. I had seen listing with variations of the name of a business, whether it be a retail or restaurant / fast food establishment. Looking back on the dates of the majority of those caches that were published, they were published 2 years ago or more. So I take it the guidelines were revised / changed along the way and are considered "Grandfathered" in.

I do think it would help if in the guidelines, it indicated per section with a revision date and whether in full or in part. I feel this would eliminate some of the confusion.

But the reviewer was not only helpful, but patient with me. He simply suggested to be a little creative.

[Mr.Yuck]

i don't see how this is any more commercial than the cracker barrel or walmart LPCs.

 

This old "I don't see how it's different than..." canard is pretty weak and seems, at best, incredibly disingenuous.

 

The commercial guidelines are not as complicated as some people make them out to be.

 

Simply placing a cache in close proximity to a business isn't necessarily commercial (though it's probably not a great idea from a permission standpoint).

 

Mentioning the business by name or extolling the virtues of the business in the cache description is commercial.

 

There's really no reason why a cache owner needs to dig in his/her heels over the issue - be creative, work with the reviewer, get it sorted out. There are lots of really interesting places that also happen to be businesses, and it is very possible to make great caches without making fellow geocachers feel like you're exploiting them for commercial gain.

i can't see where the business names are mentioned in the caches and extolling the virtues of a business nearby is not commercial in my opinion.

 

people need to stop getting their short curlies in a bunch about this. if a person feels exploited then don't do the cache. no one is forcing anyone to spend money to get these caches.

 

I'll bet you could count the number of Geocachers out in the field who are finding these caches that are, ahem, "getting their short curlies in a bunch" over it on your hands and toes. It's Groundspeak who is, ahem again, getting their short curlies in a bunch.

 

I've had a couple similar concerns with reviewers with caches I was listing. I had seen listing with variations of the name of a business, whether it be a retail or restaurant / fast food establishment. Looking back on the dates of the majority of those caches that were published, they were published 2 years ago or more. So I take it the guidelines were revised / changed along the way and are considered "Grandfathered" in.

I do think it would help if in the guidelines, it indicated per section with a revision date and whether in full or in part. I feel this would eliminate some of the confusion.

But the reviewer was not only helpful, but patient with me. He simply suggested to be a little creative.

 

Oh gosh, I can't remember any dates, but I'll take a wild guess at 2007, Groundspeak pretty much seemed to come out of nowhere with the whole "no commercial caches" thing. Not so sure about "Grandfathered", I know of several caches in Ontario whose names were forced to be changed after the crackdown. Most notably a cache that was placed in 2005, I believe it was, "Death by Supercuts", which was in a small pioneer cemetery in a very urban location, right next to a Supercuts. And Supercuts was removed from the cache name years after placement.

[+narcissa]

 

i can't see where the business names are mentioned in the caches and extolling the virtues of a business nearby is not commercial in my opinion.

 

Um, what?

[+TerraViators]

 

i can't see where the business names are mentioned in the caches and extolling the virtues of a business nearby is not commercial in my opinion.

 

Um, what?

They did append their post with, "...in my opinion."

[uperdooper]

i guess they should just make a new 'guideline' saying no caches within 528' of a business. heaven forbid there should be a stop and rob, ice cream stand, pizza place or business that accepts $$ close to a cache or i will feel compelled to purchase something just because i've done a cache there.

 

there is a mantra i'm always seeing in these forums that if you are uncomfortable doing a cache then don't do it. events are always being held in restaurants and no one kvetches about them. maybe they should be forced to hold all event caches in the middle of a field so people won't spend $$ at them.

 

yeesh!

[+briansnat]

Oh gosh, I can't remember any dates, but I'll take a wild guess at 2007, Groundspeak pretty much seemed to come out of nowhere with the whole "no commercial caches" thing. Not so sure about "Grandfathered", I know of several caches in Ontario whose names were forced to be changed after the crackdown. Most notably a cache that was placed in 2005, I believe it was, "Death by Supercuts", which was in a small pioneer cemetery in a very urban location, right next to a Supercuts. And Supercuts was removed from the cache name years after placement.

 

The guideline has been there since I can remember. It was clarified about 2007ish.

[+caccbag]

Does anyone else have this problem? We started our first series called "Gitcha Grub On" as a series of our favorite restaurants. It wasn't until we got to the 16th cache in the series we started being told our caches were promotional. We never mention the name of the restaurant, and in some cases the cache is actually between a few restaurants. I've seen caches that people have to go inside a business & interact with employees - which is word for word not allowed according to what our reviewer quoted me of the guidelines. Are they picking on us or am I missing something here?

 

Not to reopen a can of worms, but I for one have no issues with that and still today see cache descriptions that mention things such as "While dining at our favorite bar, we loved this view and decided to drop a cache here", etc. Today we saw cache listings around Napa that mention Safeway, PetSmart, Target, and others. Plus many caches (new ones too) took us to the cachers' favorite wineries, deli and hotel. Didn't offend us. We are adults. If a cache says: "Give a Hoot(ter)...go get the best breasts and thighs at the HOT resturant and cache in on the beautiful views of the workers." we would probably pass. Guarantee you though many cachers wouldn't. They just don't care and would prefer to get the cache count. But, that should be the cachers' choice.

 

While in Texas I hit something close to a 20 cache day....the theme was hitting all the local fast food restaurants and almost every cache name had the restaurant name in it. Did I throw up in disgust? Did I avoid them? Did I protest taht I was being led to various business locations (like a vast majority of lamp post skirt hides we have found)? Nope, I had a great time cruising the small college town and racking up some caches. Granted, they weren't very creative and I for one don't frequent those type of businesses, but I made the decision to go get the caches. I think we as cachers have that ability to decide for ourselves if we want to go get a cache next to a resturant, cofee shop, pastry shop, sewer supply store, or crematorium. I would think cachers who read the descriptions and don't want to cache at anywhere near any commercial place can, well, don't go. No one is holding a gun to their head. As for others who want to go to add to cache count or to see the view or to visit some location a cacher they trust found special, good - a new cache for them.

 

But no, I do not believe you were being picked upon. Groundspeak has explained to me that they do allow exceptions for (1) businesses and (2) charities/agendas....but the only one that they will grant those exceptions to is Geocaching.com/GS. They have built business relationships with the businesses or have decided what charities they will support. They won't allow cachers to do teh same. Again, since it is the geocachers who make the caches and the geocachers that find the caches, I think the community should be given the same rights. But that is just my opinion. They own the website so they impose the rules, whether they are fair, reasonable, equitable or not.

[+Don_J]

Does anyone else have this problem? We started our first series called "Gitcha Grub On" as a series of our favorite restaurants. It wasn't until we got to the 16th cache in the series we started being told our caches were promotional. We never mention the name of the restaurant, and in some cases the cache is actually between a few restaurants. I've seen caches that people have to go inside a business & interact with employees - which is word for word not allowed according to what our reviewer quoted me of the guidelines. Are they picking on us or am I missing something here?

 

Not to reopen a can of worms, but I for one have no issues with that and still today see cache descriptions that mention things such as "While dining at our favorite bar, we loved this view and decided to drop a cache here", etc. Today we saw cache listings around Napa that mention Safeway, PetSmart, Target, and others. Plus many caches (new ones too) took us to the cachers' favorite wineries, deli and hotel. Didn't offend us. We are adults. If a cache says: "Give a Hoot(ter)...go get the best breasts and thighs at the HOT resturant and cache in on the beautiful views of the workers." we would probably pass. Guarantee you though many cachers wouldn't. They just don't care and would prefer to get the cache count. But, that should be the cachers' choice.

 

While in Texas I hit something close to a 20 cache day....the theme was hitting all the local fast food restaurants and almost every cache name had the restaurant name in it. Did I throw up in disgust? Did I avoid them? Did I protest taht I was being led to various business locations (like a vast majority of lamp post skirt hides we have found)? Nope, I had a great time cruising the small college town and racking up some caches. Granted, they weren't very creative and I for one don't frequent those type of businesses, but I made the decision to go get the caches. I think we as cachers have that ability to decide for ourselves if we want to go get a cache next to a resturant, cofee shop, pastry shop, sewer supply store, or crematorium. I would think cachers who read the descriptions and don't want to cache at anywhere near any commercial place can, well, don't go. No one is holding a gun to their head. As for others who want to go to add to cache count or to see the view or to visit some location a cacher they trust found special, good - a new cache for them.

 

But no, I do not believe you were being picked upon. Groundspeak has explained to me that they do allow exceptions for (1) businesses and (2) charities/agendas....but the only one that they will grant those exceptions to is Geocaching.com/GS. They have built business relationships with the businesses or have decided what charities they will support. They won't allow cachers to do teh same. Again, since it is the geocachers who make the caches and the geocachers that find the caches, I think the community should be given the same rights. But that is just my opinion. They own the website so they impose the rules, whether they are fair, reasonable, equitable or not.

 

You have every right to set up your own website and list caches however way you wish to.

I personally do not have a problem with commercial caches. I do have a problem when people state that they should be allowed to use GS to advertise on their, or someone else's behalf, without the permission of or compensation to GS.