FTF after PAF/TAF to CO...

[+wmpastor]

IMO it's the CO that's at fault here.

I agree with that 100% BUT here's the problem where we live....I could be wrong in my number guesstimate but not by much and I'm going on what I've seen/experienced in just under 4 years of being members....90% of local cachers know eachother personally and all of them carry a Rolodex of eachother's phone numbers.

 

The other 10% of us rarely, if ever, get a chance at a FTF in certain areas of our part of our state. It's almost like the 90% has the "FTF geocaching market cornered !"

 

IMO, if you want to PAF or TAF or CCO for help/hints/clues, fine but do it AFTER someone else has the opportunity to get the FTF fair and square !!!

 

If the FTF spot/position is so revered ( which is is around here ), then shouldn't how it's achieved be "honorable ?"

 

thanks

 

 

I'm picturing them flipping through a Rolodex out in the field! They really need to learn about cell phones with built-in memory!

[+Redfist]

My opinion - I have 3 here.

 

1. Someone dredged up an old thread. Agenda? And yes, I'm falling for it.

2. FTF isn't a real part of the game. If the CO wants help people find their cache, it's the CO's prerogative. FTF or not.

3. Someone (original poster), is way too obsessed with FTFs. Given the other thread, it seems as though this FTF obsession is costing them in reputation points in their local community. Was it really worth it? Friendships > FTFs.

 

/soapbox

[+Planet]

PFFFFT.

If it is fair for the second to find, it's fair for the first.

 

It's not a competition.

Once the FTF log scrolls off the page, nobody's gonna know, or care.

[+lamoracke]

Personally I do not make a habit of calling the COs if its a FTF, but it happens and folks move on. Probably happens more than folks know about.

 

Better than someone already having their signature in a cache before it was hidden and then that person claims FTF. Of course no one would ever do such a thing, right?

[AZcachemeister]

 

Once the FTF log scrolls off the page, nobody's gonna know, or care.

 

Unless the CO puts your name in one of those dreadful scrolling marquee things on the cache page.

 

I pray to the cache gods I never get humiliated honored in such a way.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I guess I just don't see phoning a friend or owner as unfair. If someone has the desire and the know how to do it fine. Who really cares in the long run?

 

We used to care, when we first started a couple of years back. Not just on FTF, but all PAFs. After awhile it didn't bother us much. We continue to make multiple trips on harder finds and don't pay much attention to whether others used a PAF. Funny thing though, we have started not posting DNFs on a few caches which we consider nemesis caches because we have been blindsided by helpful cachers e-mailing us where to look. Great intentions, but there is nothing worse than reading an e-mail before you realize it contains a spoiler on a cache whose GZ has become home away from home.

[+tweetiepy]

This might sound totally off, but, to me, a newbie, if a cache has been looked for on many occasions and not yet found, then someone actually finds it, this would count as a real accomplishment - otherwise you were just quicker than someone else.

 

I may be naive, and I'll probably never log a FTF on ANY cache - EVER - since my area seems to have no new caches posted in the past few years but I think a well deserved FTF would be one that was earned by finding a cache that no one else could find until then.

 

I can't see myself ever running out to get a FTF at all hours, to me it would just mean that I was faster than anyone else, not more clever.

 

I realize that there aren't rules to this game, so it doesn't matter how you play as long as you have fun.

 

Now if I should ever get a FTF, I'm sure I'll be dadgum proud anyways despite it just being posted...

 

but that's my 1.50 cents (I'm canadian, our cents are worth less)

Edited February 1, 2013 by tweetiepy

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I agree. But you don't need to be FTF. You sound like you would enjoy just finding caches that haven't been found in awhile. We have had more satisfaction finding a few caches that had not been found in over a year than the few FTFs we have. What is most gratifying is knowing there may be a CO who is excited about it also.

[+tweetiepy]

What do these mean? PAF or TAF?

 

CCO is contact CO right?

[+cerberus1]

Phone or Text a friend.

[+niraD]

PAF - Phone A Friend

TAF - Text A Friend

 

Here are some other resources:

http://www.geocaching.com/about/glossary.aspx

http://geolex.locusprime.net/

http://www.cacheopedia.com/wiki/Glossary

[AZcachemeister]

This might sound totally off, but, to me, a newbie, if a cache has been looked for on many occasions and not yet found, then someone actually finds it, this would count as a real accomplishment - otherwise you were just quicker than someone else.

 

 

And there you have the real source of the FTF 'race'.

 

...Back in the day...caches were placed in out-of-the-way locations that took some planning and effort to get to. It was an accomplishment to get there at all, and FTF actually meant something.

 

There are still caches in this class, and some have yet to be found even after several years.

[+Q10]

Is that fair play ?

 

I really like this cacheowner. He is a nice guy. Want to help his fellowcachers. And do it. GREAT!

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Q10

[+OZ2CPU]

a few things from my area, if it matters.

FTF is a gentlemans sport.

if you play fair, you win the FTF and the honor and glory from your friends.

it is ONLY fun to win the FTF, if your friends like you and respect you.

if you cheat or play it bad, you might be the one who sign a log first,

but you then play alone in missery, no glory, no friends.

 

a CO NEWER reveals or help BEFORE it is found first !!

only go check if it is there or not, or if there is an error, fine correct it.

on puzzles a CO only give out help or clues if needed on the cache page !!

so all players gets the same info at same time.

 

yes we got a CO phone and sms list for our area,

we even got a cell phone app to handle it fast and easy :-)

but it is NEWER used on FTF,

[+JKMonkey]

IMO, the CO shouldn't have given away any hints for the FTF, after that you can show them the cache for all I care but how can it you reward someone with a FTF if they needed hints to be the first to find it?

[+OZ2CPU]

if a HINT is needed to find it.. it should allready have been put on the cache page !

a cache is supposed to be able to be found ONLY with the info provided on the cache page,

if this is impossible, repport DNF and go home.

[+niraD]

IMO, the CO shouldn't have given away any hints for the FTF, after that you can show them the cache for all I care but how can it you reward someone with a FTF if they needed hints to be the first to find it?

What if the CO doesn't consider FTF a way to "reward someone"?

[+Q10]

IMO, the CO shouldn't have given away any hints for the FTF, after that you can show them the cache for all I care but how can it you reward someone with a FTF if they needed hints to be the first to find it?

What if the CO doesn't consider FTF a way to "reward someone"?

 

Thats it and thats that!

[+Q10]

a CO NEWER reveals or help BEFORE it is found first !!

 

Of course he/she does - if he/she want's to help his/hers fellow geocachers to find the cache.

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

[+niraD]

if a HINT is needed to find it.. it should allready have been put on the cache page !

Maybe. But what if the CO didn't realize the hint was needed until a friend called him from GZ? I've added hints to (and otherwise updated) my caches in response to questions from seekers. Usually, I answer the question directly, and then spend some time thinking about the best way to incorporate my answer into the cache description or hint. I honestly don't worry about whether this delay will upset someone's side game.

[+DragonsWest]

Just looking for opinions outside of our immediate area where this happens very frequently.

 

What do you think of the practice of going after a FTF, can't find it, place an immediate call and/or send an immediate text to the CO for help/hints/clues which results in locating the cache and getting the FTF ?

 

Great example happened today when 6 local cachers happened upon eachother at a brand new unfound cache. They looked around for awhile. No find. Called the CO and got hints/clues. Still couldn't find it so they called the CO again and received more help which then resulted in the find and the 6 cachers logging a Co-FTF.

 

Is that fair play ?

 

Is it fair to the rest who may have wanted to go for the FTF and found it without help ?

 

Do you think this is an actual "find," or should they have accepted defeat, gone home and allowed another player the opportunity to get the FTF ?

 

thanks for any input.

 

A Find is a Find is a Find...

 

If possible the seeker has the contact info for the CO it could provide immediate feedback to the CO that the readings are bad, some construction has recently taken place, a tree was trimmed or removed or someone glued the skirt down on the lamp post.

 

As I could care less about most FTFs (where park hours and rules are respected, among other common sense concerns) they are a find and the first to test how well the CO did on the placement.

 

"Fred, your cache has been eaten by a squirrel, including the log book, do you want me to pull it while you disable it?"

[Ranger Fox]

You know, there was a time I went after all FTFs. Now that most caches in my area are park and grabs (and I'm working an hour and a half away), I don't do that all too often. That's not to say I have more FTFs than some people have finds.

 

The thing that got me started on the FTF game, actually, was the pristine cache site. My objective was twofold: I wanted to see the hide as intended and, if the hide was difficult, there was a good chance I'd be able to track the owner's footsteps, so I used that as a sort of hint.

 

I did an experiment once. A very difficult cache came out in my area. After a few visits to the site, I had FTFed it. I wanted to know just how much people were talking behind the scenes, so I refused to give anyone hints. So did the cache owner. People tried for another week or two and interest began to wane. DNFs, all. A few months later, someone else found the cache. Right after that, there was a slew of fifteen or twenty find logs within a span of two weeks. Ever since then, my PAF loathing began.

 

There was another time. I hid a challenging cache and knew some people were looking for it. It was one of those artsy-crafty caches where I had to get the cammo just right and no one had tried this type of hide in the area. One of the people called me up. "Did you find it?" I asked. "Man, that's some good cammo," he replied. "How did you make it?" I was thrilled about the compliment, so I told him the process. He asked a few other questions and hung up. An hour later, I received a call for help on the same hide from someone else. "Bad news," I said. "Someone else has already beaten you to the FTF. But, because of that, I'll give you more information than I would have the FTF." I was fairly specific as to the hide's location. Forty minutes later, I walked on the trail out to the cache to see what the area looked like after the first group had razed it. I saw everyone there, mulling about--both groups. Apparently, the guy in the first group had tried to trick me into divulging information about the hide--and succeeded. However, even with the second group's information, they couldn't find the cache. This was when I made the rule I absolutely will not give out hints to my own caches before I had confirmed the FTF.

 

There are times, I'll concede, when it is necessary for the FTF to call for information. For instance, it's a good idea to call to confirm the cache is present or you're at the right location. One of the caches given to me to celebrate my 5K milestone involved some coordinate projection. I did not have a difficulty level, just the coordinates, which led to the first stage and the projection note. My projection took me to a place that was very typical of the cache owner's hide style. I spent more than twelve hours across six or seven trips to find the cache before I finally broke down and called. Apparently, the guy made an error in his projection and the cache was more than 250 meters away. This was not the only time I have been burned by my no PAF during an FTF rule. There was another cache--a multi--at which I spent more than eight hours across several trips. It turns out the cache had been missing all along and I was just wasting my time.

 

So while the no PAF for the FTF is a great rule to have for challenging caches (and doesn't make sense for caches everyone should be able to find), be prepared to verify the cache's existence after a little while. And honor the one exception to the rule: the FTF hopeful should be able to call you and verify he or she is in the right area and your coordinates are not off. But that's just one of the risks inherent in the FTF game.

[+OZ2CPU]

Very usefull comments there Ranger,

as many may realize it is a very different thing this SIDE FTF thing..

and also the gentlemans and honor thing, from contry to contry,

but so are hides and hints and all that,

that is one of the cool things we like to see and feel when we travel and cache..

and also bring home new ideas and good new experiances.

[+Planet]

In all my years, I have probably phoned a friend twice. Once, calling brdad in Maine for his Battleship cache. I had come a long way, had already visited 25 different cache stage sites, and he had typo. And I had planned ahead to be able to call him if I needed help.

One because I happened to be friends with the CO.

It just amazes me how all these people who use the phone a friend technique happen to have the phone numbers of just the right people to call.

[+cerberus1]

In all my years, I have probably phoned a friend twice.

Yeah, same here. Don't have "all my years" status yet though.

Once I bushwacked to a stage of a "5" multi and stopped dead in my tracks.

I walked within 200' of a drug deal going down in the middle of the woods.

Backed up a ways, called the CO (gave me his # for problems) and whispered the situation. Something I did sparked curiosity, as I noticed guys looking.

Even in camo I couldn't turn back (now) without being seen, he allowed me to safely travel to the next stage.

- If I knew you could drive back there, it would have been an easy day.

 

Another time, on a FTF run, I busted my shoulder up pretty bad hanging by my ice axe on a rock edge. Most don't use touring axes in Winter for travel and I called the CO, saying that the hide (a3T) may not be doable until Spring unless terrain got notched up a point (folks would show up prepared).

- He called back every half hour or so to see if I was okay making the 7 miles back to the truck. That was a very nice of him.

 

But CJ on the other hand, is far different...

She'll play online phone games with fellow cachers, now only on long, flat trails (after getting hurt not paying attention) texting and chatting along the way. That seems to be how many phone people are.

A few weeks ago, some stages in a multi were pretty-much shot and CJ not only PAFd the CO, but they texted each other through each stage.

- I don't get it.

[+cerberus1]

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

You're correct, there's no official rules for the FTF side game.

- And it may not be "official", but they do mention notifications and FTF here .