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FTF after PAF/TAF to CO...


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Just looking for opinions outside of our immediate area where this happens very frequently.

 

What do you think of the practice of going after a FTF, can't find it, place an immediate call and/or send an immediate text to the CO for help/hints/clues which results in locating the cache and getting the FTF ?

 

Great example happened today when 6 local cachers happened upon eachother at a brand new unfound cache. They looked around for awhile. No find. Called the CO and got hints/clues. Still couldn't find it so they called the CO again and received more help which then resulted in the find and the 6 cachers logging a Co-FTF.

 

Is that fair play ?

 

Is it fair to the rest who may have wanted to go for the FTF and found it without help ?

 

Do you think this is an actual "find," or should they have accepted defeat, gone home and allowed another player the opportunity to get the FTF ?

 

thanks for any input.

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IMO it's the CO that's at fault here.

I agree with that 100% BUT here's the problem where we live....I could be wrong in my number guesstimate but not by much and I'm going on what I've seen/experienced in just under 4 years of being members....90% of local cachers know eachother personally and all of them carry a Rolodex of eachother's phone numbers.

 

The other 10% of us rarely, if ever, get a chance at a FTF in certain areas of our part of our state. It's almost like the 90% has the "FTF geocaching market cornered !"

 

IMO, if you want to PAF or TAF or CCO for help/hints/clues, fine but do it AFTER someone else has the opportunity to get the FTF fair and square !!!

 

If the FTF spot/position is so revered ( which is is around here ), then shouldn't how it's achieved be "honorable ?"

 

thanks :)

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IMO it's the CO that's at fault here.

I agree with that 100% BUT here's the problem where we live....I could be wrong in my number guesstimate but not by much and I'm going on what I've seen/experienced in just under 4 years of being members....90% of local cachers know eachother personally and all of them carry a Rolodex of eachother's phone numbers.

 

The other 10% of us rarely, if ever, get a chance at a FTF in certain areas of our part of our state. It's almost like the 90% has the "FTF geocaching market cornered !"

 

IMO, if you want to PAF or TAF or CCO for help/hints/clues, fine but do it AFTER someone else has the opportunity to get the FTF fair and square !!!

 

If the FTF spot/position is so revered ( which is is around here ), then shouldn't how it's achieved be "honorable ?"

 

thanks :)

 

So 90% of local cachers get FTFs? That seems like a pretty fair (almost unbelievably fair) state of play, to be honest. Now if you'd said only 10% of your local cachers get FTF, that'd be a whole 'nother story.....

 

Looks like the remaining 10% probably need to up the ante and try a little harder???

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Just looking for opinions outside of our immediate area where this happens very frequently.

 

What do you think of the practice of going after a FTF, can't find it, place an immediate call and/or send an immediate text to the CO for help/hints/clues which results in locating the cache and getting the FTF ?

 

Great example happened today when 6 local cachers happened upon eachother at a brand new unfound cache. They looked around for awhile. No find. Called the CO and got hints/clues. Still couldn't find it so they called the CO again and received more help which then resulted in the find and the 6 cachers logging a Co-FTF.

 

Is that fair play ?

 

Is it fair to the rest who may have wanted to go for the FTF and found it without help ?

 

Do you think this is an actual "find," or should they have accepted defeat, gone home and allowed another player the opportunity to get the FTF ?

 

thanks for any input.

 

There are no rules for FTF.

 

should they have accepted defeat, gone home and allowed another player the opportunity to get the FTF ?

 

Thats what I would have done, but if the cache owner gave someone help I wouldnt get upset over it either. FTF is only a bonus.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Is that fair play ?

 

Repeat after me:

 

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

 

If you choose to do the FTF thing, it is entirely up to you what you call an FTF and what you do not. Any rules for a "competition" would have to be negotiated with other local caches. Since it appears that you have not negotiated any rules, then there are no rules.

 

You can find the cache a month after everybody else and claim FTF.

 

You can find your own caches and claim them as FTFs.

 

Because there are no rules.

 

The whole concern with "fairness" is interesting and pretty well-understood from a psychological viewpoint, but I think I will not say more on that subject on the remote chance that somebody might take it as disrespectful.

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Fair, not imho but I guess it is up to the CO if they are willing to, selectively, hand out hints.

 

I just noticed today that a puzzle cache was logged the other day after sitting unfound for nearly two months. The ftf stated he begged for hints. You would think that any hints passed along would be posted on the cache page to give everyone a level playing field. Whatever floats their boats I guess. I can't imagine it has impressed the other avid puzzle cacher around here.

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Is that fair play ?

 

Repeat after me:

 

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

 

If you choose to do the FTF thing, it is entirely up to you what you call an FTF and what you do not. Any rules for a "competition" would have to be negotiated with other local caches. Since it appears that you have not negotiated any rules, then there are no rules.

 

You can find the cache a month after everybody else and claim FTF.

 

You can find your own caches and claim them as FTFs.

 

Because there are no rules.

 

The whole concern with "fairness" is interesting and pretty well-understood from a psychological viewpoint, but I think I will not say more on that subject on the remote chance that somebody might take it as disrespectful.

Repeat after me:

 

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

I would LOVE for this comment to be posted in the faces of our local FTF hounds as a reminder when a player from the other 10% sneaks in and nabs a FTF but doesn't log it in 30 seconds or 3 minutes or 30 minutes or 3 hours or 3 days and then one of them from the 90% goes for said FTF only to see a sig from someone from the 10% in the FTF space on the log !!!!

 

Oh yes. THAT goes over really well around here. So much so that if you do happen to nab a freak FTF and don't log it from your car 30 seconds after signing the log, the STF will literally claim they were FTF and totally play it off like they didn't see the FTF sig on the log.

 

See, as far as FTF hounds go, there ARE rules for being FTF and one of those rules is you MUST log said FTF IMMEDIATELY after signing the log because if you don't and one of them WASTES A TRIP or WASTES THEIR TIME going after it only to discover SOMEONE ELSE'S SIG ON THE LOG......WATCH OUT !!

 

As for "fairness....." some players need it written in black and white in a playbook and others just, well, play fair....

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I would LOVE for this comment to be posted in the faces of our local FTF hounds as a reminder when a player from the other 10% sneaks in and nabs a FTF but doesn't log it in 30 seconds or 3 minutes or 30 minutes or 3 hours or 3 days and then one of them from the 90% goes for said FTF only to see a sig from someone from the 10% in the FTF space on the log !!!!

 

Oh yes. THAT goes over really well around here. So much so that if you do happen to nab a freak FTF and don't log it from your car 30 seconds after signing the log, the STF will literally claim they were FTF and totally play it off like they didn't see the FTF sig on the log.

 

See, as far as FTF hounds go, there ARE rules for being FTF and one of those rules is you MUST log said FTF IMMEDIATELY after signing the log because if you don't and one of them WASTES A TRIP or WASTES THEIR TIME going after it only to discover SOMEONE ELSE'S SIG ON THE LOG......WATCH OUT !!

 

Wow. Sounds to me like the FTF game has become pretty unfriendly there, with an "in" group and an "out" group; where the battle for FTF has become so intense that it takes precedence over kindness and concern for other peoples' feelings.

 

If I were you, I might ask myself if those are the people you really want to be geocaching with. If your answer is "no," then (in all seriousness) it's probably better for you to quit trying to play their game. If you make an FTF, keep track of it yourself. You know which ones you got. But don't make any external comment about it; let the hounds in the area know that you're not playing their version of the game any more.

 

I've had to do the same thing several times in my caching career, where upon reflection I realized that I was becoming a person I didn't like or that some aspect of the game was getting too intense or obsessive for me.

 

I did it when I gave up on the "numbers = status" thing pretty early on.

 

I did it again when I gave up on the idea of "clearing" a space around my home coordinates.

 

I did it when I stopped bragging about my FTFs.

 

I did it when I stopped competing for numbers of puzzle caches solved.

 

And I just did it a couple weeks ago after caching every day for a month. I had a streak going, and I didn't like what the streak was tempting me to do, so I purposely ended it.

 

Just because the FTF hounds in your area choose to play like jerks doesn't mean you have to go along with their way of doing things. Find another aspect of the game that isn't inhabited by that kind of people and you will enjoy it more!

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Is that fair play ?

 

Repeat after me:

 

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

 

If you choose to do the FTF thing, it is entirely up to you what you call an FTF and what you do not. Any rules for a "competition" would have to be negotiated with other local caches. Since it appears that you have not negotiated any rules, then there are no rules.

 

You can find the cache a month after everybody else and claim FTF.

 

You can find your own caches and claim them as FTFs.

 

Because there are no rules.

 

The whole concern with "fairness" is interesting and pretty well-understood from a psychological viewpoint, but I think I will not say more on that subject on the remote chance that somebody might take it as disrespectful.

Repeat after me:

 

There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

I would LOVE for this comment to be posted in the faces of our local FTF hounds as a reminder when a player from the other 10% sneaks in and nabs a FTF but doesn't log it in 30 seconds or 3 minutes or 30 minutes or 3 hours or 3 days and then one of them from the 90% goes for said FTF only to see a sig from someone from the 10% in the FTF space on the log !!!!

 

Oh yes. THAT goes over really well around here. So much so that if you do happen to nab a freak FTF and don't log it from your car 30 seconds after signing the log, the STF will literally claim they were FTF and totally play it off like they didn't see the FTF sig on the log.

 

See, as far as FTF hounds go, there ARE rules for being FTF and one of those rules is you MUST log said FTF IMMEDIATELY after signing the log because if you don't and one of them WASTES A TRIP or WASTES THEIR TIME going after it only to discover SOMEONE ELSE'S SIG ON THE LOG......WATCH OUT !!

 

As for "fairness....." some players need it written in black and white in a playbook and others just, well, play fair....

 

Pardon me, but I'm feeling a little nosey today. How is it you find yourself in this 10% group? I notice you've never attended a Geocaching event. Is it because of the hard feelings over this FTF stuff? I'm just surprised that someone still finds themselves on the outside looking in after 3+ years, 2,000 finds and 200 hides.

 

I just ask because sometimes I feel some of us are sort of clickish in my area too. Oh, and pretty much sign me up for what Fizzy said about the situation.

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Seems like folks are pretty competitive up there in Illinois. Thankfully the FTF game is a bit more genteel in our neck of the woods. We played it for a while, got scooped a lot by folks with smart phones (our phone is rather on the simple side, poor thing) and by folks who have more free time than we do (curse you, day job!) but still managed to pick up a FTF here and there.

 

Lately I have stopped caring quite so much. We'll take FTFs when we can get them, but for now, the days of rushing out of the house/ducking out of work to race across town for a cache appear to be behind us.

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Seems like folks are pretty competitive up there in Illinois. Thankfully the FTF game is a bit more genteel in our neck of the woods. We played it for a while, got scooped a lot by folks with smart phones (our phone is rather on the simple side, poor thing) and by folks who have more free time than we do (curse you, day job!) but still managed to pick up a FTF here and there.

 

Lately I have stopped caring quite so much. We'll take FTFs when we can get them, but for now, the days of rushing out of the house/ducking out of work to race across town for a cache appear to be behind us.

How can you be scooped by someone with a smartphone?

The real actual FTF is the first to sign the log, not the first to log it on the Geocache website. isn't it?

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See, as far as FTF hounds go, there ARE rules for being FTF and one of those rules is you MUST log said FTF IMMEDIATELY after signing the log because if you don't and one of them WASTES A TRIP or WASTES THEIR TIME going after it only to discover SOMEONE ELSE'S SIG ON THE LOG......WATCH OUT !!

 

This is why I don't play the FTF "game". If I found myself hunting for caches that are a waste of time or a waste of a trip unless I am the first to sign the log then it must be a pretty poor cache and I am doing something wrong.

 

As for the original question, it sounds fine to me. If you want to play the FTF game you have to be willing to accept the competition and a boatload of disappointment.

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I don't think that using a PAF/TAF for an FTF is right. Like others have said it's just a side game with NO rules. If the CO wants to give them a hint then so be it. Don't let this FTF hunting ruin your game.

 

I learned real quick that some cachers are real clickish and such is life. Again don't let it ruin your fun.

 

Around our parts the FTF game is real fun and we welcome in new cachers all the time. Too bad it's not like that where you're from.

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Seems like folks are pretty competitive up there in Illinois. Thankfully the FTF game is a bit more genteel in our neck of the woods. We played it for a while, got scooped a lot by folks with smart phones (our phone is rather on the simple side, poor thing) and by folks who have more free time than we do (curse you, day job!) but still managed to pick up a FTF here and there.

 

Lately I have stopped caring quite so much. We'll take FTFs when we can get them, but for now, the days of rushing out of the house/ducking out of work to race across town for a cache appear to be behind us.

How can you be scooped by someone with a smartphone?

The real actual FTF is the first to sign the log, not the first to log it on the Geocache website. isn't it?

It's that they can get the notification on the phone out in the field, instead of on the computer - where you then have to load the GPSr (and PDA maybe) before starting for the cache.

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Seems like folks are pretty competitive up there in Illinois. Thankfully the FTF game is a bit more genteel in our neck of the woods. We played it for a while, got scooped a lot by folks with smart phones (our phone is rather on the simple side, poor thing) and by folks who have more free time than we do (curse you, day job!) but still managed to pick up a FTF here and there.

 

Lately I have stopped caring quite so much. We'll take FTFs when we can get them, but for now, the days of rushing out of the house/ducking out of work to race across town for a cache appear to be behind us.

How can you be scooped by someone with a smartphone?

The real actual FTF is the first to sign the log, not the first to log it on the Geocache website. isn't it?

It's that they can get the notification on the phone out in the field, instead of on the computer - where you then have to load the GPSr (and PDA maybe) before starting for the cache.

Ah! Thanks for the explanation. This brings the game to a whole nother level :smile:

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There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

I agree there are no official rules, but I don't think that precludes norms from developing. A community can develop a sense of fair play without a central authority like Groundspeak issuing decrees. I think this is a reasonable issue for the OP to ask about.

 

I generally will not ask for hints on an un-found cache, especially a puzzle cache. I'd prefer for others not to either - if it's a particularly tricky hide or puzzle I'm happier when the challenge stands on its own merits. Of course, I can't control this, and if someone else finds a cache after asking for a hint, I don't spend too much time stressing about it.

 

Sometimes if a cache has gone unfound for a while, I'll email the CO and, without asking for a hint, politely ask if they might consider posting any hints they hand out to other cachers on the cache page for all to benefit from (especially for a puzzle). Again, I can't control this, and I don't get worked up if it doesn't happen. But neither do I mind throwing it out there for the CO to consider.

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One of the reasons I personally don't care for this whole "FTF" race is exactly because of this sort of thing. I think we see more angsty threads here resulting from real or percieved FTF "unfairness" than just about anything else.

 

My suggestion to you is that you cannot change others. Nothing we can say here is going to stop the behavior of those that you are competing against. All you can do is to stop caring. The way to win is to refuse to play the game.

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One of the reasons I personally don't care for this whole "FTF" race is exactly because of this sort of thing. I think we see more angsty threads here resulting from real or percieved FTF "unfairness" than just about anything else.

 

But for better or for worse, there isn't much FTF angst in your home area that I am aware of. So not exactly sure why you REALLY aren't into the FTF game.. perhaps you just don't care, which is perfectly legit. I go in spurts myself.. some months I am the hound and then I go quite a while not caring at all.

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These FTF threads are always entertaining to read. <_< I agree with the prevailing opinion that they are an arbitrary non-stat even though I have and occasionally still do from time to time particpate in that aspect of the game. :ph34r: It does matter however to A LOT of people around here and elsewhere as evidence by the number of threads dedicated to the subject and the fact that we now have two challenges in our area where logging of FTF's is a requirement of qualifying for the challenge so to say it is completely pointless is no longer true (not that anyone here in this thread has sadi that).

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I live in the same general area (Chicago) as TSAWSF and the FTF competition, from what I've seen, is pretty laid back overall. Most of the self confessed 'hounds' do know, or at least know of, each other. IMO the OPs viewpoint is rather skewed do to various things that I really can't go into here without the possibility of getting at least a short time out. If anyone is really that interested, feel free to PM or email me.

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I think it's totally lame to PAF/TAF while after the FTF on a cache. People are so caught up in the FTF, they'll do anything to get it. While there are NO RULES on the FTF or PAF/TAF does that make it ok? NO, it's not fair to someone that could go out to the cache and find it without help. My question to the PAF/TAF people, what kind of satisfaction do you get out of finding a cache that the CO basically told you where it was? Isn't it much more exciting when you find a cache, especially a tough one, on your own? Being from TSAWSF's area I know exactly what they're talking about. The FTF hounds around here are crybabies when they get beat to FTF, so best believe if they are on the FTF hunt and know the CO, they'll be placing calls. Funny thing is when they do it on the easy caches.

 

P.S. C.O.D. is a TSAWSF HATER, don't listen to him.

Edited by Team JDS'
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I think it's totally lame to PAF/TAF while after the FTF on a cache. People are so caught up in the FTF, they'll do anything to get it. While there are NO RULES on the FTF or PAF/TAF does that make it ok? NO, it's not fair to someone that could go out to the cache and find it without help. My question to the PAF/TAF people, what kind of satisfaction do you get out of finding a cache that the CO basically told you where it was? Isn't it much more exciting when you find a cache, especially a tough one, on your own? Being from TSAWSF's area I know exactly what they're talking about. The FTF hounds around here are crybabies when they get beat to FTF, so best believe if they are on the FTF hunt and know the CO, they'll be placing calls. Funny thing is when they do it on the easy caches.

 

P.S. C.O.D. is a TSAWSF HATER, don't listen to him.

 

I really like what Team JDS has said.

 

I have to admit that quite some time ago I used the PAF while on a FTF hunt, and later realized that it wsn't a very fair thing to do. But I realized my error, and knew I would never do that again!

Edited by Max and 99
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There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

I agree there are no official rules, but I don't think that precludes norms from developing. A community can develop a sense of fair play without a central authority like Groundspeak issuing decrees. I think this is a reasonable issue for the OP to ask about.

 

I agree. However, because there isn't an official global decree on the rules or guidelines, each community is free to develop a local set of acceptable practices. It's a reasonable issue for the OP to ask about, but because local practices are developed around the local geocaching environment something that may be acceptable and even commonplace in Illinois may be completely foreign in Nebraska.

Edited by NYPaddleCacher
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I agree. However, because there isn't an official global decree on the rules or guidelines, each community is free to develop a local set of acceptable practices. It's a reasonable issue for the OP to ask about, but because local practices are developed around the local geocaching environment something that may be acceptable and even commonplace in Illinois may be completely foreign in Nebraska.

I think that's right. It can be good to find out if your community is wildly out of step with the rest of the world (I have a vague sense this is/was true w.r.t. logging events multiple times for an area in the Midwest), but at the end of the day local standards are far more likely to carry the day.

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There are no rules for FTF.

It is not an official part of geocaching.

I agree there are no official rules, but I don't think that precludes norms from developing.

 

Since the people involved are already violating a basic community norm (that geocaching is not meant to be a competitive sport), what makes you think they will be more amenable to other norms?

 

Whatever need is being met by turning everything into a competition seems (at least from the evidence on the forums) to be highly correlated to a need to get others involved to declare whether something is "fair" or not.

 

My opinion is that both behaviors are generally bad for geocaching.

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FTF isn't a contest or an award - it is a simple statement of fact. The first to find the cache and sign the log. Before or after publishing it here. With or without help from friends, with or without PAF networking. No rules, no common norms. It is what it is.

 

FTF and 2 quarters gets a pop from the vending machine on Main street. As a real gift - just the quarters work equally as well.

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I like signing a blank log when time and circumstances permit, but I avoid the angst by not using the initials in any log. If anybody cares, they can figure it out. There really is no need to make it seem like any more of an accomplishment than anything else -- to me, the fourth and fifth finders deserve much more credit because they come to a cache for reasons other than the initials.

 

So if the 6 cachers had just signed the log and recorded it online without using the initials, would it have helped? And if the next finder wants to think that they were the first to find without asking for help, and record it on their personal stats, would anyone care?

Edited by mulvaney
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IMO it's the CO that's at fault here.

The CO is at fault because they help people who ask find their cache?

 

Certainly PAF/TAF may have a sour feel to some as I doubt most cacher owners put their phone # on the cache page, so only their friends who have a number are able to call. But if you're not friends with that particular cache owner and think they are giving a unfair advantage to their friends, I would say you are at fault for worrying about FTF on their caches. Instead spend your time looking for your friends hides, or for caches from some newbie where nobody has their number yet. Or better yet, stop obsessing about FTF altogether. If you're not having fun, you have no one to blame but yourself.

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Since the people involved are already violating a basic community norm (that geocaching is not meant to be a competitive sport), what makes you think they will be more amenable to other norms?

 

Whatever need is being met by turning everything into a competition seems (at least from the evidence on the forums) to be highly correlated to a need to get others involved to declare whether something is "fair" or not.

 

My opinion is that both behaviors are generally bad for geocaching.

I'm not sure I entirely agree that the FTF side game *itself* goes against a basic community norm... it seems to be a mostly tolerated aspect of the game in most of the places I've been exposed to (as opposed to, say, couch caching). I know that many don't enjoy that aspect of the game, and I totally respect that. But I don't think trying to solve a puzzle first or hoping to meet other cachers at impromptu FTF parties violates most basic community standards.

 

Many of the FTF hounds I've met have been perfectly willing to adopt local norms. I've noticed that people play the game differently in different places. There are exceptions, but most of the FTF folks I've met haven't been monsters with no ability to get along with other people in group settings. I've met some bang-up fantastic, friendly and wonderful people on the FTF trail.

 

I don't disagree that some FTF hunting can be bad for geocaching, especially when it encourages people to cut corners (like entering parks after they've closed for the night, etc.). That unfortunate by-product of the game most definitely violates community norms in almost any place I've cached.

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Just play your own game!

There are thousands of comments on this forum about playing the game their own way.

If you are FTF as in the first to find the cache and sign the log, then just log it that way and go on your way and ignore all the rest of the nonsense, no matter when you log it online!

 

After that, the only time I'd give it another thought would be if my log were deleted, and then I'd let Groundspeak take care of it.

 

After all, sounds like you're not part of the in crowd anyway, and I certainly wouldn't want to be from the sounds of them, so why worry about their nonsense!

 

BC

Edited by BC & MsKitty
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Great example happened today when 6 local cachers happened upon eachother at a brand new unfound cache. They looked around for awhile. No find. Called the CO and got hints/clues. Still couldn't find it so they called the CO again and received more help which then resulted in the find and the 6 cachers logging a Co-FTF.

 

Is that fair play ?

 

So, hypothetically, if you had also rushed out there and been a seventh person looking, when someone made the PAF, would you have refused to be co-ftf? Would you have refused to log a find at all? ever?

 

In this particular situation the cache owner had the option of sending 6 people home empty-handed but chose instead to give hints until they found it. Are you saying that he should have completely denied a find to those 6 people. That wouldn't have been much fun for those 6 people would it.

 

It sounds as though you might want to let the FTF game go if it's causing you angst. As Fizzy said, learning to avoid aspects of the game that you don't enjoy can be very rewarding.

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I'm careful with my FTFs. I only consider them FTFs if I searched for them alone, with no hints from the owner.

 

I phoned the owner once; I had wrong coordinates and only asked for the right ones.

At another cache, I was called by the owner after attempting a FTF (already left the site), I told him where I searched, he asked "How well have you searched *there*?". The cache turned out to be missing. I made the FTF after he replaced it (I knew where it was from my previous conversation with him) - didn't felt right.

I considered calling the owner at another cache, but since it was 1:30 AM reason prevailed. Made the FTF in the morning without help.

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I guess we're just too laid back where I am. Caches can sit for a long time without a FTF not because they're hard but because no one is rushing out to get them. We do it as we have time.

 

One of my friends contacted the owner while on his way to find a new cache when he couldn't find it. He ended up first to find. No one cared. There were no proclamations of it not being fair. It just was.

 

I guess I just don't see phoning a friend or owner as unfair. If someone has the desire and the know how to do it fine. Who really cares in the long run?

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Used to have a FTF hound in the area who was notorious for calling when he couldn't find the hide in a few minutes. We think that's not fair to others who may be playing the FTF game by looking.

Last time he called at six in the morning, while we were at work, we simply told him, " Don't worry, I'm sure someone will be along soon to help." :D - he hasn't annoyed us since.

And people who want to get a 3. terrain hide in line with their C&D run by calling, now can get a hint after they log a DNF.

We were amazed how many would call rather than log a DNF, like it creates a blemish on their record - sheesh.

We're night-shifters and having folks call, waking us up, simply 'cause they couldn't find 'em quickly, had to stop. Most we don't even know.

We started out with four cachers with our phone numbers. Now we get calls from dozens.

When did it become okay for personal numbers to be given out so readily ?

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