Winter in Canada

[+ToonAl]

Can I mention how many caches I have found in Ontario do not seem to have the winter attribute marked whither `not available` or 'available'. I am not sure if I am the only one that finds it frustrating to walk into the woods knee deep in snow and wonder if the cache is available.

 

Today I did a cache which was on the ground under 2 feet of snow. Now it was near a tree and I dug it out but it seemed strange that this one would not have a "Not available in winter" marker on it.

 

I think I played with a bunch of my Pocket Queries once and on average of a 400 cache pocket query removing "Not available in winter" had the effect of removing 6 caches maybe. Surely it should be more than this.

 

Just putting this out for discussion to see if I am missing something.

 

ToonAl

[+dfx]

We only pay attention to that attribute once we're at GZ and can't find the cache

[+chris-mouse]

In this part of Ontario, it just might be because there are very few caches that can't be found in winter. Some of them just take more determination than others.

I have done caches that became much harder in winter, like the film can under a metre of snow. There are also caches that become much easier, like the terrain 5 canoe caches that became a terrain 1.5 walk up when the water froze.

In general, I figure snow adds a star to the difficulty level here, unlike areas in the mountains where ten metres of snowdrift mean winter placements must be very different from summer placements.

[+Keith Watson]

My assumption is that unless it is marked as winter friendly it is most likely under the snow somewhere and there fore expect to dig.

[+KDotBlueDot]

There are 'three degrees' of winter friendliness, not two. Caches that HAVE the winter friendly icon, tell me that the cache owner is confident that it IS available. The NOT available icon tells me the cache owner is confident that I won't be able to find it. But the lack of an icon is the cache owner just not knowing, and not willing to guarantee either way. I read it as..."take your chances". Almost every cache owner who adds attributes, considers the question of winter friendliness, but, it's impossible to be able to answer definitively one way or the other in every case, and therefore the missing icon is also telling you something.

[+johnvanderlip]

Today I did a cache which was on the ground under 2 feet of snow. Now it was near a tree and I dug it out but it seemed strange that this one would not have a "Not available in winter" marker on it.

 

It's available than since you found it, you just had to be determined.

 

I found the same problem with the available in winter classification. I think a "winter friendly" might be more accurate.

I tried filtering caches only found in the last 7 days but it was too limiting and some finds were like yours, just a very determined digger. I went after others that hadn't been found since last spring and had great luck.

Now I'm starting to enjoy the challenge of finding a cache that hasn't been found yet in the winter.

Edited February 8, 2011 by johnvanderlip

[+Tequila]

There are 'three degrees' of winter friendliness, not two. Caches that HAVE the winter friendly icon, tell me that the cache owner is confident that it IS available. The NOT available icon tells me the cache owner is confident that I won't be able to find it. But the lack of an icon is the cache owner just not knowing, and not willing to guarantee either way. I read it as..."take your chances". Almost every cache owner who adds attributes, considers the question of winter friendliness, but, it's impossible to be able to answer definitively one way or the other in every case, and therefore the missing icon is also telling you something.

 

I support this explanation.

[7rxc]

In this part of Ontario, it just might be because there are very few caches that can't be found in winter. Some of them just take more determination than others.

I have done caches that became much harder in winter, like the film can under a metre of snow. There are also caches that become much easier, like the terrain 5 canoe caches that became a terrain 1.5 walk up when the water froze.

In general, I figure snow adds a star to the difficulty level here, unlike areas in the mountains where ten metres of snowdrift mean winter placements must be very different from summer placements.

You have it right about mountains... not just the depth of snow, but consider what it does to relatively easy to find, year round caches that are located at the bottom of an avalanche chute... and to the fact that there is no drive up access at that time of year.

Winter severely alters the difficulty and terrain ratings of many caches, and an easy summer walk can turn into a desparate struggle for survival in many cases... Just a regional thing in some ways, but it also applies out of the mountains and often day to day as the weather changes. We are just into a colder period following a thaw period where the snow pack settled down from many feet to a lesser but more dense layer... some of that is now semi ice over denser snow and we have more falling on top of it. A definite shift in conditions. Doesn't matter much to me here though... most of the caches I've found already, and can't access the remaining ones since they are too far away to walk or ski. But I have and will within reason.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+dfx]

There are 'three degrees' of winter friendliness, not two. Caches that HAVE the winter friendly icon, tell me that the cache owner is confident that it IS available. The NOT available icon tells me the cache owner is confident that I won't be able to find it. But the lack of an icon is the cache owner just not knowing, and not willing to guarantee either way. I read it as..."take your chances". Almost every cache owner who adds attributes, considers the question of winter friendliness, but, it's impossible to be able to answer definitively one way or the other in every case, and therefore the missing icon is also telling you something.

 

While technically this is true, it assumes that every CO is using the attributes in the same way as you do, which obviously is not true. A missing icon can also mean the CO just didn't think about it, or doesn't care. Caches placed in summer are much more likely to have no icon, because the CO simply ignored the aspect of winter friendliness. Of course the message is still "take your chances", but that message isn't coming from the CO, not explicitly anyway.

 

And then there's the COs who enable the winter icon simply because the cache is in a park/area which is open to the public in winter. The cache may still be on the ground. Those are probably just exceptions, but it shows that attributes always have to be taken with a grain of salt, because unfortunately their meaning is open to interpretation.

[+Treknschmidt]

I've never really known how to take this attribute. It does say "available in winter" as opposed to "winter friendly" which many people assume it means. Around here there are parks that are closed / off limits in winter as they are eagle nesting grounds, those caches in my opinion get the "not available in winter" icon, while others around here are considered available even though they might be under snow.

 

One of our first caches was a multi, we didn't know much better back then and a couple of the stage were on the ground. That first winter most of the stages were incased in ice and no amount of digging could free them. We have since learned that elevated caches hold up much better and choose to do this more frequently. All part of the learning curve I guess.

[+ToonAl]

I definitely think KDot is missing the fourth option which is "Does not know better." Perfect example, yesterday two of us headed out to do a cache which we DNF'ed on. But I mentioned to my partner that we could not even see the terrain because of the snow. My partner DNF'ed it and today it is marked "Disabled" because of the snow by the CO. They could easily marked the not available in winter attribute.

 

Saying that I understand the digging in the snow concept (which I have obviously done). I read the unavailable in winter as going to be covered in snow take your chances. That way say in early December here in tropical Ontario when there is no snow I ignore the attribute "not available" attribute until it snows.

 

As for environmentally sensitive areas I would hope those are mentioned right in the cache description for the benefit of us and the environment.

[+brenda&&rew]

In some cases I don't give the attribute of "available in the winter" because it could be used as a hint to a more difficult to find cache hide. I know of other cache owners that do the same thing.

Edited February 10, 2011 by brendah

[+KDotBlueDot]

I agree with Brendah on that point as well. Available in Winter can often mean, not on the ground and in fact I consider that attribute all year around when I struggle to find a cache.

 

There may be a portion of hiders who don't know better, but if they are using attributes at all on the listing, then I would suggest that would be a small minority or would fall into Brendah's scenario.