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Sweet! Thanks for the clarification.

 

So can we start a countdown clock? Like a T minus 00:00:00:00?? :P

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It will be a separate program from the EarthCache Masters program and they will not be linked.

 

Gary

 

Now I am really confused. In the second posting in this thread with the topic EC masters you wrote that there will be new levels.

What you write now appears to be contradictory. Did you change your mind?

 

Cezanne

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Actually that statement indicated that there would be new levels. You made an assumption that it would be a continuation of the previous levels. It was mentioned early on that they would not be based on hides, but we needed correction on that too, lol!

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Actually that statement indicated that there would be new levels. You made an assumption that it would be a continuation of the previous levels.

 

No, I did not make that assumption. I am very careful with making assumptions and with drawing logical conclusions as proper application of logic rules is something important for me.

 

Continuation would mean that the new levels are dependent on the old ones. I never expected this to happen.

What I meant was that if the new program will not be housed under the name "Earthcache masters program" (implied by the formulation that it will be a new program) and the new levels will not be referred by that name, then it neither makes sense to talk about new levels nor to write about them in a thread with the name Earthcache masters.

 

It was mentioned early on that they would not be based on hides, but we needed correction on that too, lol!

 

Yes, it was and I have been aware of that aspect from that point onwards.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Any chance of expanding the levels for hides too? This is one way that we can encourage and promote EC's in regions that have very few. If I look at the 6 countries in this region that can be accessed (after international flights etc.)

 

There are only 30 ECs - 20 of which have been developed by 2 cachers, both who have 18 and 47 EC hides respectively. So it is our goal to expand EC in the region to an acceptable level - but very difficult to find ECs. So a hide award would assist too.

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You say...

 

No, I did not make that assumption. I am very careful with making assumptions and with drawing logical conclusions as proper application of logic rules is something important for me.

 

and I say tomatoe! Would you prefer the term "supposition" or "hypothesis". Whether it was logical or not wasn't being challenged, you may have made a logical assumption (although wrong). Stop thinking that this is somehow a negative term. As evryone does, everyday, you made an assumption since you didn't have all the facts. We have had to make some assumptions in this thread, some were kindly clarified by TPTB, others will come to light in due course.

 

...if the new program will not be housed under the name "Earthcache masters program" (implied by the formulation that it will be a new program) and the new levels will not be referred by that name, then it neither makes sense to talk about new levels nor to write about them in a thread with the name Earthcache masters.

 

Actually the premise for housing this discussion here is (in all likelihood, logically assuming :ph34r: ) to notify us based on the interest of the original ECM program and perhaps draw a comparison between the original program and this new adaptation of it. Since we only have one frame of reference for intangible rewards regarding ECs.

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Any chance of expanding the levels for hides too? This is one way that we can encourage and promote EC's in regions that have very few. If I look at the 6 countries in this region that can be accessed (after international flights etc.)

 

There are only 30 ECs - 20 of which have been developed by 2 cachers, both who have 18 and 47 EC hides respectively. So it is our goal to expand EC in the region to an acceptable level - but very difficult to find ECs. So a hide award would assist too.

 

You have been a fine example in keeping busy with making ECs, keep up the good work!

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You say...

 

No, I did not make that assumption. I am very careful with making assumptions and with drawing logical conclusions as proper application of logic rules is something important for me.

 

and I say tomatoe! Would you prefer the term "supposition" or "hypothesis". Whether it was logical or not wasn't being challenged, you may have made a logical assumption (although wrong).

 

The assumption that you apparently thought that I had made, was something I did not assume. Note the stress on "that".

 

Stop thinking that this is somehow a negative term. As evryone does, everyday, you made an assumption since you didn't have all the facts. We have had to make some assumptions in this thread, some were kindly clarified by TPTB, others will come to light in due course.

 

Of course, assumptions are nothing negative by default.

 

However, I am still thinking that the two postings of geoaware contradict each other in the way they are formulated. For that statement it does not make any difference at all whether or not I made any assumption.

I am not even involved.

 

 

...if the new program will not be housed under the name "Earthcache masters program" (implied by the formulation that it will be a new program) and the new levels will not be referred by that name, then it neither makes sense to talk about new levels nor to write about them in a thread with the name Earthcache masters.

 

Actually the premise for housing this discussion here is (in all likelihood, logically assuming :ph34r: ) to notify us based on the interest of the original ECM program and perhaps draw a comparison between the original program and this new adaptation of it. Since we only have one frame of reference for intangible rewards regarding ECs.

 

A non-contradictory way of announcing this would have been to say that a new award program will be launched in a few months. Mentioning new levels in a thread dealing with the ECM program creates the impression that the newly introduces levels (independent or dependent on the old levels) will be housed within the ECM program.

Level is a subunit of something larger. If this larger object is nothing already mentioned before, the subunit references does not make sense.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Any chance of expanding the levels for hides too? This is one way that we can encourage and promote EC's in regions that have very few. If I look at the 6 countries in this region that can be accessed (after international flights etc.)

 

There are only 30 ECs - 20 of which have been developed by 2 cachers, both who have 18 and 47 EC hides respectively. So it is our goal to expand EC in the region to an acceptable level - but very difficult to find ECs. So a hide award would assist too.

"Any chance of expanding the levels for hides too?"

I too would whole heartedly endorse this idea. Since we recently lost 203 ECs due to the archive actions of GS, there hasn't been much enthusiasm for replacing them. Maybe a little emphasis on hides would help with the replacements or at least spur the development new additional earthcaches.

Thanks for listening. :)

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Since we recently lost 203 ECs due to the archive actions of GS.

 

I don't want to derail us, but even the parties involved understand that it was their own fault. When you stick to principles defiantly that aren't upheld by TPTB, there are consequences.

 

Back to our subject, I can understand why people are less likely to make ECs than normal geocaches since it is far more labour intensive regarding permissions and research. I only have 5 of my own and am working on my 6th, but it would be nice if we could convince people just how fun it is. Perhaps a fancy little video like the "intro to geocaching" on the homepage of geocachingdotcom could illustrate the initial steps required to create your first EC might be of assistance.

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Since we recently lost 203 ECs due to the archive actions of GS.

 

I don't want to derail us, but even the parties involved understand that it was their own fault. When you stick to principles defiantly that aren't upheld by TPTB, there are consequences.

 

Back to our subject, I can understand why people are less likely to make ECs than normal geocaches since it is far more labour intensive regarding permissions and research. I only have 5 of my own and am working on my 6th, but it would be nice if we could convince people just how fun it is. Perhaps a fancy little video like the "intro to geocaching" on the homepage of geocachingdotcom could illustrate the initial steps required to create your first EC might be of assistance.

 

My mentioning of the archiving of 203 ECs was only to add an incentive to include hides in the new program. It was not to relive old topics, but since you mentioned it:

 

You may not, but we live in the area most impacted by the archives. Please share your insights. The most puzzling statement is, "the parties involved understand that it was their own fault". How do you know this? It simply is not true as I understand at least one of the "parties involved" doesn't agree with the finding of fault! Guess which party?

Please allow me one question, absent GS rightfully not speaking publicly as to their reasons, how do you know why the archive happened? You are either an insider 1.e. member of TPTB or have incorrect leaked information!

I also do not want to derail this topic and did not intend to do so, but your remarks did the derail and left very faulty implications that some of us felt needed clarification.

 

Now to Carbon Hunter's original suggestion, please consider using EC developed as part of the new program.

Thanks. :)

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My mentioning of the archiving of 203 ECs was only to add an incentive to include hides in the new program. It was not to relive old topics, but since you mentioned it

 

 

totally understandable.

 

The most puzzling statement is, "the parties involved understand that it was their own fault". How do you know this?

 

I don't have access to CS personally, but when you google the subject there are other forums where he speaks for himself, if those are false, then I apologize. Based on those, it seems that he kept bucking the request of the reviewers and admin about certain issues. One of which was the photo logging requirement. He would delete logs when photos weren't provided and he was requested to stop.

 

I am not trying to agree with any party, I am also not speaking as to the fairness, but the math adds up. If I want to use a company's website as a member with all its privileges then I have to abide by their rules, when I don't like those rulings and defy them, then I am subject to the consequences.

 

Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant. GS made a decision with their website regarding a member and it was based on that members actions. CS has said (if it is him) that he stills disagrees with these policies. I am sorry for not using more tact when refering to this issue. I know it is a sore spot for many and will not bring it up again in this thread.

 

I also do not want to derail this topic and did not intend to do so, but your remarks did the derail and left very faulty implications that some of us felt needed clarification.

 

You are absolutely correct. I apologize.

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Why does a thread like this end up so off topic???

 

It is so sad that a topic about rewarding good players has to be dragged into an old closed issue.

 

I will respectfully ask for this thread to be closed if people continue to head down this pathway.

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My fault, sorry. It won't happen again (in here. by me. :lol:).

 

Back to business.

 

Geoaware, can some of the people that have weighed in on this forum already qualify for the top level? Or is there a twist of some sort that would limit them?

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I hope that ways can be found to encourage new earthcaches without including "hides" in an expanded masters program. Traditional caching has stayed away from challenges based on hides in part to discourage people from placing a cache just to reach a certain number. Not every rock or roadcut needs to be an earthcache. I don't think anything beyond the present levels is needed to get people thinking about developing earthcaches and earthcaches just for the sake of numbers will be just that.

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I hope that ways can be found to encourage new earthcaches without including "hides" in an expanded masters program. Traditional caching has stayed away from challenges based on hides in part to discourage people from placing a cache just to reach a certain number. Not every rock or roadcut needs to be an earthcache. I don't think anything beyond the present levels is needed to get people thinking about developing earthcaches and earthcaches just for the sake of numbers will be just that.

Good point

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Why does a thread like this end up so off topic???

 

It is so sad that a topic about rewarding good players has to be dragged into an old closed issue.

 

I will respectfully ask for this thread to be closed if people continue to head down this pathway.

To answer your question, it doesn't have to!

 

My deepest and sincere apology since I contributed to the detour. I don't think I took the initial wrong turns, but I felt that I had to defend the program from the usual negativism from Germany. Secondly, with my plea to include hides in the new program, some misinformation was stated regarding my example of the recent archival process. I should have let 'sleeping dogs lie'.

Good luck with the program and obviously with 60 ECs developed, I'll claim a bit of a bias in my plea to include hides. I simply hope the bias doesn't work both ways! In other words, if you aren't hiding, why would you want hides included? No, every road cut or outcrop shouldn't be an EC, but one thing about living in America, there are thousands of potential spots for ECs and we are lucky to have so many to find and so many for developing.

Good luck with the program! Without or without hides, we look forward to it!

Thanks. :)

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I hope that ways can be found to encourage new earthcaches without including "hides" in an expanded masters program. Traditional caching has stayed away from challenges based on hides in part to discourage people from placing a cache just to reach a certain number. Not every rock or roadcut needs to be an earthcache. I don't think anything beyond the present levels is needed to get people thinking about developing earthcaches and earthcaches just for the sake of numbers will be just that.

Any time you keep a record, numbers count!

You make a good point regarding traditional geocaching, but I must respectfully disagree in part. There are dozens and dozens of examples of challenges based on hides. It is reflected in the growing number of power trails with hundreds of caches hid. Yes, there is no direct reward (badge/pin/etc.)other than the basking in the sunlight with what you have done (all those hides). Just look at the forums and how many folks enjoy the power trails. The acceptance of multi-hides is reward enough otherwise why have so many power trails been deveoped?

While it's not our cup of tea, numbers is a growing part of geocaching. Finding or hiding caches, both are celebrated and I don't think either have ruined caching! More hides equal more finds and who or what is harmed?

Again to Geoaware: best of luck with the new program and with or without hides, we will support your efforts!

:)

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Why does a thread like this end up so off topic???

 

It is so sad that a topic about rewarding good players has to be dragged into an old closed issue.

 

I will respectfully ask for this thread to be closed if people continue to head down this pathway.

To answer your question, it doesn't have to!

 

My deepest and sincere apology since I contributed to the detour. I don't think I took the initial wrong turns, but I felt that I had to defend the program from the usual negativism from Germany. Secondly, with my plea to include hides in the new program, some misinformation was stated regarding my example of the recent archival process. I should have let 'sleeping dogs lie'.

Good luck with the program and obviously with 60 ECs developed, I'll claim a bit of a bias in my plea to include hides. I simply hope the bias doesn't work both ways! In other words, if you aren't hiding, why would you want hides included? No, every road cut or outcrop shouldn't be an EC, but one thing about living in America, there are thousands of potential spots for ECs and we are lucky to have so many to find and so many for developing.

Good luck with the program! Without or without hides, we look forward to it!

Thanks. :)

 

Was hast Du gegen Deutschland ?

What do you have against Germany ?

 

@ geoaware: please finish this off-topic ...

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Thanks to all for agreeing to get this back on topic. Naturally there are times when we won't agree on a topic and discussion is vital in those instances, but please let's keep the discussion flowing in a positive manner--an exchange of ideas--a sharing of viewpoints.

 

If you have specific off-topic news or ideas to share with one another, please remember you can take it to private messaging, or begin a new thread if the discussion would benefit the entire group.

 

Now, an on topic comment on my part: from the info geoaware has already made public, the new levels will be focused on finds and at least some of us will already qualify for some of the lower levels. That sounds fun to me and will probably encourage me to go explore some new places. I dearly love to see EarthCache-worthy spots. We always make detours to see EarthCaches when we go on trips.

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Thanks to all for agreeing to get this back on topic. Naturally there are times when we won't agree on a topic and discussion is vital in those instances, but please let's keep the discussion flowing in a positive manner--an exchange of ideas--a sharing of viewpoints.

 

If you have specific off-topic news or ideas to share with one another, please remember you can take it to private messaging, or begin a new thread if the discussion would benefit the entire group.

 

Now, an on topic comment on my part: from the info geoaware has already made public, the new levels will be focused on finds and at least some of us will already qualify for some of the lower levels. That sounds fun to me and will probably encourage me to go explore some new places. I dearly love to see EarthCache-worthy spots. We always make detours to see EarthCaches when we go on trips.

Amen to everything you said. For my part in the detour, I'm sorry! :(

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Thanks to all for agreeing to get this back on topic. Naturally there are times when we won't agree on a topic and discussion is vital in those instances, but please let's keep the discussion flowing in a positive manner--an exchange of ideas--a sharing of viewpoints.

 

If you have specific off-topic news or ideas to share with one another, please remember you can take it to private messaging, or begin a new thread if the discussion would benefit the entire group.

 

Now, an on topic comment on my part: from the info geoaware has already made public, the new levels will be focused on finds and at least some of us will already qualify for some of the lower levels. That sounds fun to me and will probably encourage me to go explore some new places. I dearly love to see EarthCache-worthy spots. We always make detours to see EarthCaches when we go on trips.

Great post, Neos2! Thank you.

 

I want to add that maintaining a productive forum discussion requires keeping it from becoming personal. Please avoid using comments like "you said" as that tends to make the discussion about persons rather than about ideas or comments. Also please avoid responding with "why..." as that tends to put others on the defensive. Agree to disagree on points and then move on. It is not necessary to press others to change their opinion. Try saying "I understand what was said and I see it this way" instead of insisting that the other person's opinion is wrong.

 

And finally, do not stereotype groups or nations by referencing a comment from an individual as being from the Germans, the Californians or whatever. Everyone here is an individual and no one has been designated as the spokesperson for their country, their race, their religion or whatever.

 

Thank you.

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Also please avoid responding with "why..." as that tends to put others on the defensive.

 

I am very sorry for asking an off-topic question on your off-topic post, and to make it worse, use the word why.

I do not understand why we should avoid the word why. Typically when I use this word I use it because I want to understand

what other people are saying. In my opinion, trying to understand each other (that does not imply to have the same opinion)

is something very important. Maybe I misunderstood, however, the ellipsis you used.

 

Cezanne

 

BTW: In order to reply to some other off-topic comments not made by you without disturbing the normal flow of this thread

with an additional posting: I am neither from Germany nor am I German. Moreover, as you said, my opinion is just representative

for myself and not for any type of group.

Edited by cezanne

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I do not understand why we should avoid the word why.

 

Perhaps you missed this part?

 

...as that tends to put others on the defensive.

 

Back on topic...

 

It's great that the GSA takes such an active role in developing and promoting Earthcaching, and by default, Geocaching in general, although I'm not sure the new levels will really change the way I do things. My family loves hunting EC's in general, and I'm not all that picky either way.

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Also please avoid responding with "why..." as that tends to put others on the defensive.

 

I am very sorry for asking an off-topic question on your off-topic post, and to make it worse, use the word why.

I do not understand why we should avoid the word why. Typically when I use this word I use it because I want to understand

what other people are saying. In my opinion, trying to understand each other (that does not imply to have the same opinion)

is something very important. Maybe I misunderstood, however, the ellipsis you used.

 

Cezanne

 

BTW: In order to reply to some other off-topic comments not made by you without disturbing the normal flow of this thread

with an additional posting: I am neither from Germany nor am I German. Moreover, as you said, my opinion is just representative

for myself and not for any type of group.

Responding to cezanne via PM.

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It is reflected in the growing number of power trails with hundreds of caches hid.

 

I think that a development like the powertrail development would be one of the worst things that could happen to Earthcaching.

I sincerely hope that this will never happen. While I am negative about powertrails consisting of traditionals too, I am even more negative about tons of Earthcaches which are just there for the sake of the numbers. For Earthcaches the write-up and the uniqueness of the experience is very important to me and I prefer if someone is investing 20 hours into one nice Earthcache than if he is investing 20 hours in 100 Earthcaches with almost identical descriptions or copy-pasted texts.

 

To give an example: A while ago I had a look at the Earthcaches of neos2 as I was curious. I liked the write-up and the logging tasks very much and I got the impression that these Earthcaches have been developed by someone with determination for the subject and for teaching other people something of interest, and not just by someone who visited the location and felt that it could be an EC without really being interested into the background. While I do respect that many visit ECs just because of the location, I take the right for myself to prefer Earthcaches that provide me with more than just a visit to the location. To sum up, I prefer if nice EC locations remain free of ECs until someone determined comes along who is willing to invest a lot of time in the write-up, background research, design of logging tasks etc. Personally, I also stayed away from some locations in the hope that someone better suited will come along at a later time and will find the location still free of an EC.

 

As an EC award program is concerned, what I really would like most is an incentive for setting up high standard educative Earthcaches. That seems to be quite difficult, however.

 

Cezanne

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I am sorry, but the point is being missed. Anyone who follows this forum knows that there is ONE person from a CERTAIN country who always criticizes the Masters Program and represents it as one of the worse things that has ever happened to earthcaching. Also, while she has never developed an EC, she continues to belittle her local earthcaches as having no substance and not worthy of a visit! My reference was not a stereotype of an entire nation, it was an oblique reference to that one person from that one nation. Half of mine and my wife's folks are from said Country and I have nothing but respect for it and I don't appreciate my remarks being represented as some sort of stereotypical i.e. bigoted remark!

To illustrate my point, if a remark were to be made as saying people from:(choose one) any country, sex, race, whatever, etc are bad, that would be a bigoted or stereotypical statement.

I have privately communicated with Dagobert2010 and he understands my point and informs me that I referenced the wrong country anyway! While German earthcaching was/is the object of the ONE

persons extreme criticism, she does not reside there, so the joke is on me!

Thanks again and now, hopefully, we can become more specifically on topic and stop taking time out for detours! Let's wait and see what Geoaware has up his sleeve and simply appreciate the effort! :)

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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I am sorry, but the point is being missed. Anyone who follows this forum knows that there is ONE person from a CERTAIN country who always criticizes the Masters Program and represents it as one of the worse things that has ever happened to earthcaching.

 

Maybe you missed that my post was about saying that a develepment analogous to the Powertrail development for physical caches (which not yet exist as a trend in Earthcaching) would be one of the worst things that could happen in EC. I did not connect this to the masters program.

I did not become personal in my contribution and tried to take into account the previous postings of neos2 and brad_w.

 

The essence of my posting was not about any country and any specific Earthcaches, but about the fact that I think that the numbers game should not play a role in Earthcaching. Moreover, I did not point out any specific examples and did not write anything negative about anything already existing. I do not think that I can be blamed for writing that I like the write-ups of neos2's Earthcaches.

 

I made an attempt to discuss about the issue whether a new award program for hides is a good idea and if so how it should like. This is certainly on-topic here. YOu have the right to be positive about future powertrails in Earthcaching, I am not. The currently existing masters program and the new program the GSA has in mind will not produce powertrails. So my posting you critized cannot be considered as negative about the masters program, but only negative about a nonexisting new program that awards hides with respect to their number in an unreflected way so that powertrails will be the result.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Why all the debate? As I have already mentioned, the new levels will be based on finds only.

 

:)

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I think you should read your forum posts. Your opiniOns on the ECM program have seemed overwhelmingly negative and as a result you have been chastised for being critical of it based on your experience and also of being negative about the contribution of the volunteers associated with the review team.

 

I am not speaking about your intention, I am only corroborating KKM's coments that you present your arguments as overwhelmingly negative.

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Why all the debate? As I have already mentioned, the new levels will be based on finds only.

 

:)

 

The answer is simple because some asked for new levels where the number of hides play a prominent rule and since the term powertrail has been mentioned which is quite controversial as many, many debates in other sections of this forum show.

 

Cezanne

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I think you should read your forum posts. Your opiniOns on the ECM program have seemed overwhelmingly negative

 

I agree and I stand to my opinion that from my personal point of the view the ECM program did not have a positive effect. When writing this

I only take myself into account and ignore the positive effects for other cachers (of which I am of course aware of).

 

My posting to which KKM replied does not contain, however, any negative comment on the ECM program. I was just negative about Earthcache powertrails which do not yet exist (at least not in the real sense).

 

Would you welcome EC powertrails? Do you think that a new award program which is based on the number of hides and not their nature should be introduced? (To geoaware: I know that you do not plan such a program - it is a hypothetical question which still can be asked. I guess that one source of misunderstandings is that you appear to be much more pragmatic than I am - I like to discuss hypothetical issues and theoretical scenarios.)

 

and also of being negative about the contribution of the volunteers associated with the review team.

 

Not really about their contribution. I do think that they are doing good work and investing considerably more time per EC they handle than normal reviews for classical caches. I admit, however, that I am not happy with a number of decisions that have been taken in connection with the EC program and some parts of the currently existing guidelines (that provide the basis for the work of the volunteers) are very annoying for me (the language guideline being the most annoying one). I am aware of the fact that the same aspects that make me furious are of advantage for a lot of other cachers, but that will not make change my personal opinion and my personal point of view. My expectations are much higher than of those of most cachers writing here. My opinion on how a program attracting as many people as possible looks entirely different from my opinion on how a program should like that appeals to myself. My postings here reflect my personal preferences and not my preferences when I take the entire community in consideration. Maybe this helps you and others to understand my point.

 

Cezanne

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It seems to me a waste of intellectual time and energy to pose hypothetical about non-existent programs However, if that is your wish, I suggest you do so in a new thread instead of muddying the waters in this discussion about EarthCache Masters.

 

That said, I will say that the positive side of the EarthCache Masters program has been overwhelming. But, like all programs that reward people, there will be a negative side. Pointing out the negatives is important when we develop/design any new programs or redevelop existing ones. Dwelling on the small negative side and ignoring the vast positive side is unhealthy...

 

I am not saying that forums are not a good place to discuss the negative side of the game - but I wish people would keep things in balance (positive and negative).

 

And finally - please keep things respectful. You all deserve and have my respect and I would like you to extend that to each other.

 

Gary

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I think you should read your forum posts. Your opiniOns on the ECM program have seemed overwhelmingly negative

 

I agree and I stand to my opinion that from my personal point of the view the ECM program did not have a positive effect. When writing this

I only take myself into account and ignore the positive effects for other cachers (of which I am of course aware of).

 

My posting to which KKM replied does not contain, however, any negative comment on the ECM program. I was just negative about Earthcache powertrails which do not yet exist (at least not in the real sense).

 

Would you welcome EC powertrails? Do you think that a new award program which is based on the number of hides and not their nature should be introduced? (To geoaware: I know that you do not plan such a program - it is a hypothetical question which still can be asked. I guess that one source of misunderstandings is that you appear to be much more pragmatic than I am - I like to discuss hypothetical issues and theoretical scenarios.)

 

and also of being negative about the contribution of the volunteers associated with the review team.

 

Not really about their contribution. I do think that they are doing good work and investing considerably more time per EC they handle than normal reviews for classical caches. I admit, however, that I am not happy with a number of decisions that have been taken in connection with the EC program and some parts of the currently existing guidelines (that provide the basis for the work of the volunteers) are very annoying for me (the language guideline being the most annoying one). I am aware of the fact that the same aspects that make me furious are of advantage for a lot of other cachers, but that will not make change my personal opinion and my personal point of view. My expectations are much higher than of those of most cachers writing here. My opinion on how a program attracting as many people as possible looks entirely different from my opinion on how a program should like that appeals to myself. My postings here reflect my personal preferences and not my preferences when I take the entire community in consideration. Maybe this helps you and others to understand my point.

 

Cezanne

 

I understand your point that you are debating from your own personal preferance standpoint but at times it has been very insulting. I, for one, after coming to these forums as a person not educated in geology and seeing post after post about how people like me are essentially not welcome in your personal aesthetic of earth caching (in fact you would prefer if we were not included at all) am not excited about earth caching anymore. You may speak for yourself but because you are so prolific on these forums and because you are so negative about the program in general and those that use it... it has literally sucked the fun out of it for me. I had been learning neat things but it's kind of like realizing you are the wrong end of some elitist joke when you're running around trying to do these things without any knowledge. At this point, because I've come here and read this stuff, I feel like those that know geology just point an laugh at peons like me trying to invade "their" game. At this point it is too late for me to undo the mistake of coming to the earth caching forums and it has tainted my view of earth caching because of the acidic remarks you make about it and the people who do it.

 

I was even excited about the new levels for earth cache masters for people who find them. Not anymore.

 

I thought the masters program was great because of its inclusiveness for a variety of levels of knowledge. It was something many people could be involved in and I was more excited that they were going to do something for those that don't develop earth caches.

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Chokecherry, please don't get discouraged because of one person's point of view. If everyone will remember, ECs are to be developed at a language level of understanding of a 14 year old. I don't know too many 14 year old kids that have multi-PhDs in geology so the program was never, never designed from an elitist point of view. One of the really nice things about earthcaching is the variety found within the game. ECs developed by PhDs in geology to that mythical 14 year old are all welcomed. Sure, not all ECs are on the same level and that is to be celebrated not condemned!

 

Geoaware, you are right, from out here in 'earthcache discovery land', we have seen nothing but positive results from the Master's program. If it wasn't for your earthcache program in general and the Masters program specifically, we would have never become interested in and have developed such a love for geology. Yes, I know just enough geology to be dangerous, but that wouldn't have happened without your efforts. In our drive to develop and find more ECs (because of the masters program) we would have never had to read about, discuss and learn so much about geology. Thanks for that and pay no attention to the repetitious and overly negative criticism. Go for it and the sooner you announce the new program the better!

Thanks. :)

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I, for one, after coming to these forums as a person not educated in geology and seeing post after post about how people like me are essentially not welcome in your personal aesthetic of earth caching (in fact you would prefer if we were not included at all) am not excited about earth caching anymore.

 

You apparently misunderstood something. My intent is not to exclude anyone from whatever. I would not mind if there existed different categories of caches based on geology. One that brings fun and enjoyment to cachers like you and one that appeals to people like myself (the latter definitely does not exist).

 

I am sorry that you got frustrated by my postings. That was not my intent. Note, however, that I have not influenced a single EC that is available to you.

You still have the same offer of ECs as before. If they are not designed in the way such that you enjoy them, it is certainly not my fault.

 

For me the situation around ECs is not frustrating because most cachers in this forum don't share my opinion - that's not of importance to me - but because the offer of ECs in my area that I find interesting is very small.

 

BTW: I'm also not educated in geology, but I am the type of person who likes to indulge into information written up at an academic level even when I am a beginner in the concerned area and also if I need to spend a lot of time to be able to understand the material. I am not requesting anyone else to share my preference (which I already had developped at the age of 14). It is simply mine and in the same way as I respect that the majority of people is not like me, I'd also would like to get some respect for my being different.

 

 

I thought the masters program was great because of its inclusiveness for a variety of levels of knowledge. It was something many people could be involved in and I was more excited that they were going to do something for those that don't develop earth caches.

 

Why not stay excited? The fact that I a do not share your excitement and the fact that I regard award programs based on numbers as childish, does not need to spoil the fun of anyone else. If you enjoy the presently existing EC program, the masters program and are looking forward to the new levels, then keep up with that and do not get frustrated just by the fact that I am not excited at all.

I'm not trying to convince anyone who is excited about the masters program that the program is bad. I'm not even saying that it is bad, just that it had negative effects for myself.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I'm not trying to convince anyone who is excited about the masters program that the program is bad. I'm not even saying that it is bad, just that it had negative effects for myself.

 

Cezanne

 

Then why, if it's just a personal effect on you and you're not trying to convince anyone of anything, do you keep posting about it? We get it. Really, we do. You don't like the masters' program. Okay.

An oddly appropriate saying would apply here - "when you are in a hole, stop digging".

 

Chokecherry, I'm sorry for the impression you've been left with. You're still welcome to come after any of my earthcaches - in fact, I encourage it! (It's still a great looking pear.)

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At this point, because I've come here and read this stuff, I feel like those that know geology just point an laugh at peons like me trying to invade "their" game. At this point it is too late for me to undo the mistake of coming to the earth caching forums and it has tainted my view of earth caching because of the acidic remarks you make about it and the people who do it.

 

I was even excited about the new levels for earth cache masters for people who find them. Not anymore.

 

I thought the masters program was great because of its inclusiveness for a variety of levels of knowledge. It was something many people could be involved in and I was more excited that they were going to do something for those that don't develop earth caches.

 

There are many different types of opinions in the Groundspeak forums, whether it be about earthcaching, traditional caching, or even the type of gpsr that is the best. If I took many things said in these forums too personally, it would indeed drive me out of the game.

 

But I came to earthcaching as one of the "peons" knowing almost nothing about geology. Perhaps now I can say that I know next to almost nothing about geology. If I knew more, or was better at coming up with interesting tasks, I would have developed more earthcaches than I have. But it is evident from the the earthcaches I have visited how inclusive it is - encompassing different levels of knowledge, experience, and type of locations. And it is evident from the people who have visited my earthcaches, how inclusive the game has been for the participants. In either case, those directly involved in earthcaching always have been welcoming.

 

Yesterday, I stood on a hill where I had never visited, with great views in every direction, learned a little bit about the geology of the area (nothing too academic), and was reminded of all the reasons why I began to earthcache in the first place. It is that kind of experience, and not anything said in these forums, that define earthcaching for me.

 

So I hope that you will take the new masters program (whatever it is) and have fun with it. If it encourages anyone to visit a unique area and learn more about what they are seeing, then it will be a success.

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I have been reading this thread with something that approaches a morbid fascination. At this point, I have come to the following conclusions.

 

1. Most everyone here is a lawyer.

2. None of you spend enough time outside.

3. There is a reason people complain about the forums.

 

Geoaware, let me take the time to thank you for the programs, both old and new. I have seen and learned much from the masters program, and cannot wait to start anew. Thanks to the reviewers, even the ones who don't give me an automatic thumbs up. You have forced me to learn more to proceed. It must be a lot of time out of your lives, to help us better and expand our sport. Hopefully you can all find something good to say about the programs, the sport and each other.

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I am hoping that the new levels will include the finding EarthCaches from the various classifications.

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Then why, if it's just a personal effect on you and you're not trying to convince anyone of anything, do you keep posting about it? We get it. Really, we do. You don't like the masters' program. Okay.

 

The odd thing is that whatever I write some of the replies that I receive do not deal with what I have written, but with my known dislike for certain aspects of Earthcaching. Take e.g. what I wrote in response of a posting that mentioned the popularity of powertrails and tried to argue based on this that there should be new awards for hiding Earthcaches in a greater number.

 

The same is happening when I explain my main reasons for not coming up with an EC of my own (the language guideline and the fact that I am convinced that others can do better than I). I have to repeat it over and over. I invested quite some time in Earthcaches of other cachers. I think that this should be enough and allows me to have a personal opinion on Earthcaching and on what I am enjoying resp. not enjoying.

I do not tell anyone else what he/she should enjoy. I just make this decision for myself as anyone else here.

 

BTW:

I am against any aspect in geocaching that makes cachers believe that the number of finds/hides is something that should play any role in judging cachers. This holds for caches with containers and for Earthcaches as well. Awards, ranking lists and challenges based on numbers foster what I regard as pathological development of geocaching. In that sense, what happens outside of Earthcaching is much worse than the relatively moderate EC award programs. The difference is just that my expectation in EC is much higher. I used to regard ECs as something exectional, somehow as the gold and jewels of caching and not a coloured glass stone among other coloured glass stones of different colours. I do know that this is my essential mistake.

 

Cezanne

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I am hoping that the new levels will include the finding EarthCaches from the various classifications.

 

That sounds interesting to me as it includes an aspect connected to geology and not just something based on mere numbers.

 

A prerequisite would be that the classification is only done by the experts from the GSA and not to be influenced by the cache owners. Otherwise some bogus classifications will result just because some people in a certain area still lack certain categories. This type of absurdity currently often arises with the D and T ratings - if some combinations are missing, new caches or events are set up with bogus ratings just to make those happy who still need this D/T-combination.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I am hoping that the new levels will include the finding EarthCaches from the various classifications.

That's sounds like a good idea. We have found one 100 find challenge caches and someone mentioned another on the West Coast, but both are too far away for most. A finding all or some percent of all types would be nice.

Maybe something 25% - 50% - 75% and all 100% of the different types?

Now for all those backlogged ECs that need a classification. I have worked up many, but there are lots and lots of them!

I still believe Geoaware need volunteers. Check with him.

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Geoaware,

 

I am wondering how things are going with the new challenges? I know I am waiting in anticipation, so please, please, drop us another teaser... if you can. Also, if you need any help, please let me know.

 

Tank

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Indeed!

 

There are five levels...Diamond at the top down to Quartz. You have had to find more than 50 EarthCaches to have reached Quartz level....

 

To get the new levels, you have to complete an online form (like for the EarthCache Masters existing levels) for each level for which you want to apply.

 

When approved you will be sent an icon to display.

 

More coming....

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Indeed!There are five levels...Diamond at the top down to Quartz. You have had to find more than 50 EarthCaches to have reached Quartz level....To get the new levels, you have to complete an online form (like for the EarthCache Masters existing levels) for each level for which you want to apply.When approved you will be sent an icon to display.More coming....

 

Excellent! We are at 45 now and looking forward to working our way up to the diamond. Can't wait to see the icons :D

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Can't wait! :)

I'm actually excited now as well... I have the 50 no prob....need to get a few more to get to 100 though, but now I have a reason to get out and seek some more.

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Well - gives me a challenge to try and get to places where there are EC's - means a journey by plane - but c'est la vie. We can wait another year or so for the Quartz as we only have 30 EC's found now - after 4 odd years. All the more to aim for - but those 30 finds are in about 8 odd countries

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Indeed!

 

There are five levels...Diamond at the top down to Quartz. You have had to find more than 50 EarthCaches to have reached Quartz level....

 

To get the new levels, you have to complete an online form (like for the EarthCache Masters existing levels) for each level for which you want to apply.

 

When approved you will be sent an icon to display.

 

More coming....

Well char my briskets! That sounds great!

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