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Earthcache masters

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I know that physical pins are no longer sent out, but would like to get the icons.

 

I have enough to get the platinum level, but to i have to apply for the bronze first, then the silver.....and so on.

Or can i just apply for the platinum and get all four?

 

Thanks

 

Terry

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

 

Awaiting the announcement with anticipation! :P

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

 

Are you considering anything for the geographically challenged? That is, those who can't just drive a few kilometres to get to a different state?

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

Having reached Platinum Level last year to my wife's relief, she would probably regard this as bad news!

 

I wonder how I will be able to explain I need to find yet more earthcaches!

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

A couple of years ago that would have been very exciting news...now, not so much.

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

A couple of years ago that would have been very exciting news...now, not so much.

Ditto for that!

We will trade 10 additional 'merit badges' for the return of the photo requirement.

I kinda swore off this forum for that very reason but I couldn't resist! :ph34r:

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You have to apply for each level to be sent the icons.

 

We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

 

Cool! Looking forward to it.

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We are planning to release some new levels during 2011 :D More news on that in a few months.

 

Oh my god :(

 

I am still waiting for the first good news with regard to Earthcaches in 2011.

 

Cezanne

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News ...snippet...

 

Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

More information coming soon....

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News ...snippet...

 

Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

More information coming soon....

How exciting! I love EC's and look forward to having a new goal to achieve.

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Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

I would prefer a bonus for high quality EarthCache placements and not for any sort

of numbers.

 

Cezanne

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Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

I would prefer a bonus for high quality EarthCache placements and not for any sort

of numbers.

 

Cezanne

 

I agree that a bonus for high quality would be great. However, we did the "top ten EarthCaches"....I huge task for a dedicated group of volunteers and all we got was loads of negative flack in these forums! I doubt that we will attempt that very thankless task again.

 

Geoaware

Edited by geoaware

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

 

Theoretically.

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

 

Theoretically.

 

:santa:

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It makes more sense to have finding award than hiding award then. Having a hiding one just encourages people to throw out an earth cache to get that level.

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

 

Actually that is NOT the case. The guidelines do not 'force' high quality - but provide guidance on what the minimum acceptable standard should be.

 

"high quality" involves going far beyond the minimum standards.

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

 

Actually that is NOT the case. The guidelines do not 'force' high quality - but provide guidance on what the minimum acceptable standard should be.

 

Actually, I am not even any longer sure that the review process is able to guarantee a minimum acceptable standard for Earthcaches as a whole.

It appears to me (I might be wrong, so please feel free to correct me if appropriate) that with the increase in the number of submissions the best

we can hope for is that the review process tries to keep up a minimum standard for the logging tasks and that there exists a reasonably close connection to geology.

For me the write-up of an EC is, however, more important than the formal correctness of the logging tasks with respect to the guidelines.

I somehow got the impression that the reviewers (at least in my part of the world)

do not check the write-up for correctness (actually, I am not sure whether they are able to do so as as even for someone with a degree in geology this certainly needs a lot

of time and they are all volunteers). I guess I could come up with quite some nonsense explanation for the creation of a certain geological phenomenon and the

cache would be published and most cachers in my area would even thank me for having been taught something (without noting that the something is nonsense).

 

When the EC program started, I had the feeling that there has been a huge difference in the approach taken by normal reviewers and Earthcache reviewers.

During the last months I more and more got the feeling that the work of the two types of reviewers (yes, I know there are volunteers who have both jobs at the same time)

becomes more similar.

 

Cezanne

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It makes more sense to have finding award than hiding award then. Having a hiding one just encourages people to throw out an earth cache to get that level.

 

I stressed the quality. That's not the same as an award for a certain number achieved.

 

Cezanne

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It makes more sense to have finding award than hiding award then. Having a hiding one just encourages people to throw out an earth cache to get that level.

 

I stressed the quality. That's not the same as an award for a certain number achieved.

 

Cezanne

 

Who exactly would determine what is a quality earthcache? Is a really long technical write up a quality earth cache? Or one that is understandable to the masses? It's entirely too subjective to try to judge "quality."

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Theoretically, high-quality is built into the Earthcache guidelines...

 

Actually that is NOT the case. The guidelines do not 'force' high quality - but provide guidance on what the minimum acceptable standard should be.

 

"high quality" involves going far beyond the minimum standards.

 

I'm curious where the word "force" is coming from.

 

The minimum acceptable standard, as outlined by the guidelines, is one of high quality. That standard is not currently being upheld in the spotty application of the guidelines, which is why I used the word "theoretically."

 

Speaking in relative terms, yes, it is possible for owners to go above and beyond the standards outlined in the guidelines to create Earthcaches that really stand out for their exceptional quality. But if the Earthcache guidelines were being applied effectively, the minimum standard would be a very high one.

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It makes more sense to have finding award than hiding award then. Having a hiding one just encourages people to throw out an earth cache to get that level.

 

I stressed the quality. That's not the same as an award for a certain number achieved.

 

Cezanne

 

Who exactly would determine what is a quality earthcache? Is a really long technical write up a quality earth cache? Or one that is understandable to the masses? It's entirely too subjective to try to judge "quality."

 

Ideally, people from the GSA should do that. In any case, geologists who are able to judge whether the write-up is correct. Regarding the level of the write-up, that again would be the decision of the GSA.

 

Cezanne

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The minimum acceptable standard, as outlined by the guidelines, is one of high quality.

 

I do not agree. Where do you find that requirement about the cache (not the location)?

 

Cezanne

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ok...we are way off topic! Lets get back to the original thread idea :)

 

Ok, so tell us what's the idea behind introducing new levels. (Other than just making some people happy).

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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ok...we are way off topic! Lets get back to the original thread idea :)

 

Ok, so tell us what's the idea behind introducing new levels. (Other than just making some people happy).

 

 

Cezanne

 

The new program is to reward people who enjoy visiting EarthCaches for reaching some EarthCache milestones....milestones which are way beyond the 'finds' in the EarthCache Masters program.

 

The EarthCache Master program will continue to reward people for both finds and development.

 

Geoaware

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Ok, so tell us what's the idea behind introducing new levels. (Other than just making some people happy).

 

Cezanne

 

The new program is to reward people who enjoy visiting EarthCaches for reaching some EarthCache milestones....milestones which are way beyond the 'finds' in the EarthCache Masters program.

 

 

That was clear to me even before I have asked my question. Maybe I should have put my question in another way. What kind of positive effects to you expect from the new levels?

 

I know quite a lot of cachers who have a text like "I have earned the highest level GSA .... Platinum ..... bla-bla" in their profile (the GSA is a scientific organization not to be compared with a company like Groundspeak), but would not even be able to explain the most simple geological phenomena. Personally, I cannot see any positive effect of introducing/strengthening the "numbers play" aspect also in Earthcaching.

 

The reward for Earthcachers should be experiences and new knowledge and not silly badges that some make feel that they are any better than others.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

I would prefer a bonus for high quality EarthCache placements and not for any sort

of numbers.

 

Cezanne

 

Alot of high quality ECs are gone.

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News ...snippet...

 

Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

More information coming soon....

 

Yay! I've never placed an EarthCache, but I enjoy finding them.

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News ...snippet...

 

Four new levels based on EarthCache finds only. No state/country specifications.

 

More information coming soon....

 

Yay! I've never placed an EarthCache, but I enjoy finding them.

 

That's perfectly fine, but why does enjoying something have to be connected with a level system?

Is it really something which fits the term "I'm proud of ..." to have a visited e.g. 3 or more ECs?

 

It seems to me that this level system distracts too much attention from what is the real reward in Earthcaching.

 

 

Cezanne

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Well, for what it's worth, I think it's a great idea, and I'm looking forward to the new levels. I kinda got hooked on earthcaching by pursuing the earlier levels, so I don't /need/ new levels... but they'll sure be nice to get! :)

 

Thanks, geoaware!

 

P.S. joranda... that topic's been beat to death, let it rest. :)

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Let's put our high horses in the stable. If stats and badges weren't a big part of this game then the makers of this game (Groundspeak) wouldn't have invested in a program for creating stats.

 

I am very excited to hear about new levels in the program! Since the initial levels were not mandatory, I am sure that these won't be either. You can both find and create ECs without applying for any of them. I benefitted from pursuing the levels, since it changed the way I cache on my vacations and am glad for it. I don't see why setting new goals for ECs won't just do that all over again.

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As Geoaware initially stated regarding the new program: "More news on that in a few months."

It is still in development, so hopefully the debate on it can wait until it is actually unveiled... "in a few months".

Edited by geoawareHQ

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As Gary initially stated regarding the new program: "More news on that in a few months."

It is still in development, so hopefully the debate on it can wait until it is actually unveiled... "in a few months".

 

Once the new levels are already there, it does not make any longer any sense at all to me to discuss about their introduction.

But if and/or Gary you prefer, I can shut up.

 

Cezanne

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If stats and badges weren't a big part of this game then the makers of this game (Groundspeak) wouldn't have invested in a program for creating stats.

 

Something I do not like does not get better by providing further examples. Moreover, for me for some time the Earthcache program has been a positive exception.

 

Since the initial levels were not mandatory, I am sure that these won't be either.

 

Of course, they won't.

 

You can both find and create ECs without applying for any of them.

 

Certainly, but still already the existing masters program had a a negative impact on the ECs in my area. geocachers came up with ECs with hardly any interest in geology at all and that's clearly visible in the outcome.

 

I benefitted from pursuing the levels, since it changed the way I cache on my vacations and am glad for it. I don't see why setting new goals for ECs won't just do that all over again.

 

I can well believe that for setting your personal goals or for making someone who likes badges additional levels are of benefit.

 

What I would like to know is what will be the conceived positive effects of the new levels for the GSA and for the Earthcache program as an educational initiative.

Keep in mind that further levels are not for beginners who need to be introduced to the program.

 

Cezanne

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<snip>

 

Certainly, but still already the existing masters program had a a negative impact on the ECs in my area. geocachers came up with ECs with hardly any interest in geology at all and that's clearly visible in the outcome.

 

<snip>

Keep in mind that further levels are not for beginners who need to be introduced to the program.

 

Cezanne

 

Speaking as one who became interested in earthcaching, geology, and placing earthcaches because of the Masters program, I don't agree with the "negative impact". People seem to enjoy finding my earthcaches, at least.

 

If further levels are going to be for experienced earthcache fiders/placers, they will already have interest in geology, and the quality issues you are worrying about, you don't need to.

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Speaking as one who became interested in earthcaching, geology, and placing earthcaches because of the Masters program, I don't agree with the "negative impact".

 

I was not talking about the individual level. Of course I do know only a small percentage of Earthcaches and Earthcachers worldwide. Nevertheless I am wondering why

badges act as motivation and not the beauty of nature and the fascinating world of science.

 

Many local cachers have told me or wrote in some local forums that they placed certain Earthcaches just to obtain an EC master level, and did

not care that much about the way the cache is set up. (For example, the Earthcaches in the city of Vienna are very weak and they mainly have been created

in order to offer an Earthcache in Vienna (counting as a new state).

 

While there are much more exceptional Earthcache locations in the US, the percentage of Earthcaches in German speaking countries is much higher.

 

If further levels are going to be for experienced earthcache fiders/placers, they will already have interest in geology, and the quality issues you are worrying about, you don't need to.

 

Definitely not true in general. Many Platinum geocachers in my country would fail in explaining the most simple geological phenomena. (Of course there are exceptions on the positive side.) Copying some words from an information board does not require any knowledge/interest in geology.

 

 

Cezanne

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While I understand the opinion that people put forward, the joy of EarthCaches comes from many varied directions.

 

Some people like to visit and learn.

Some people like to develop and teach

Some people like to get awards and icons

Some people like a combination of all three...

And some people like it for reasons beyond these...

 

...and each is valid and each is important.

 

The EarthCache Masters program and the new program will be fun for those who like that aspect of the game. For those who don't, there is no impact on them whatsoever. So everyone wins.

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The EarthCache Masters program and the new program will be fun for those who like that aspect of the game. For those who don't, there is no impact on them whatsoever. So everyone wins.

 

I cannot tell for the new levels as I do not know them and as I cannot look into the future. The existing program did produce Earthcaches like this one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=4fd7f7b0-7765-4c44-af67-9bab1b3daaf2

(on an artificial, man-constructed island with boring questions and a single one which requires a visit, namely counting some

signs - something I could do already in nursery school). Almost every natural location in Vienna is more interesting from the geological point of view.

 

The effects of the masters program were particularly strong in Summer 2009 when the GSA announced that they will not send out any longer the pins of certain levels and many cachers hurried up in order to still get them.

 

There are only a few really interesting Earthcache locations in my region and I rather would like to see that cachers with a real interest and a sound knowledge in geology including teaching something to other people create Earthcaches based on these locations and not the cachers who hurry to use up all these locations as quickly as possible and without putting any passion in what they are doing.

 

So to finish this up. Please accept that I feel negatively effected by the masters program (and I am not the only one). I on the other hand will accept that you will offer new levels to Earthcachers, and I am convinced that your intent is a positive one.

 

Cezanne

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Why complain about the quality of some earthcaches?--You get to CHOOSE which ones you want to 'find.'

 

On the one hand, a bad earthcache blocks a good one at the same location and on the other hand, for me the Earthcache

program has once been something which I associated with a high quality per se. This has changed a lot, and the situation is

now pretty much the same as for caches with containers with the difference that with normal caches no scientific society is

associated and that normal caches are not sold as something special.

 

Cezanne

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First of all, you offer no proof that the Masters Program has diluted the quality of earthcaches. Maybe , just maybe it has encouraged more visits and the enjoyment of ECs and the appreciation of geology. You have a right to your opinion, but most of us will wait and see what the new program will bring. I for one am proud of our Masters status and proud of our earthcaches.

Now to your point that really gives us pain. What right do you feel that is yours to publicly hold up another innocent (not part of the discussion) cachers EC for ridicule?

When you added the link to an EC that is beneath your dignity, you lost the argument. Why drag someone's work through the mud? By the way, 405 people thought enough of the EC to visit. The developer must have done something right.

Thanks.

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When you added the link to an EC that is beneath your dignity, you lost the argument. Why drag someone's work through the mud?

 

I was not drugging it to the mud. I know the creator of that geocache in person (he is a nice guy, btw). When he was asked why

in the world he had chosen this location for an EC (this has been a very hot topic when the cache showed up within the Austrian community where Earthcaches at the beginning have been regarded as pearls or gold of geocaching - somehow the very best of what geocaching can offer), his honest reply was that his motivation was the Earthcache masters program and

that he wanted to offer others with an EC in Vienna (important as visits in several states/Countries are required).

 

The creator of the EC I used as example is aware of the fact that his onsite question is boring - he is using it because there is nothing of

geological interest at this location which could be used in advance. I would not have done any better at this place.

 

 

By the way, 405 people thought enough of the EC to visit. The developer must have done something right.

 

They visited it to score yet another point and not to learn about geology (which is not possible at this cache).

Have a look at the really interesting ECs (not from my point of view, but from

the point of view of the PM visitors). These caches get a very high percentage of favorite points. This is not the case here and it is for obvious reasons. The really

good ECs are so exceptional that people go there even if the area does not offer many other caches. The example I used is visited because it is in a dense area with

many, many other caches around and visiting the EC does not cost any extra effort and for many cachers it is the possibility to score an additional country/state.

 

If I lived in Vienna, I also would visit the EC just to get rid of it on the map. The cache is quickly done in 5 seconds once one is in the area.

Given the high number of cachers in Vienna, 400+ visits is not that much.

 

BTW even cachers really interested in geology are not immune against the masters virus as I call it. A very enthusiastic amateur geologist has told me that she created one

of her ECs (actually it is indeed by far her weakest) only to obtain the Platinum level and that she was surprised that her cache had been approved. She also told me that

in a way she regards her action as childish and feels sorry because of having published something she does not like herself, but the temptation of the Platinum level was too high. I have encountered several similar stories. I guess that at least in these instances it is clear that the masters program did have negative effects. Of course it will also have had positive ones. I am not denying that. I think, however, that what creators of ECs state about their own EC can well be used as argument without putting anyone's work into mud. Maybe you know understand better why I dared to use a concrete example.

 

I remember a log for a multi cache devoted to a geotrail many years ago that complained about the fact that instead of a multi cache this exceptional place should be honored with an Earthcache. At that time ECs were considered as something very precious and better than normal caches.

This has changed a lot and of course the masters program contributed to that change of philosophy.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I have read hundreds of listings and some are exceptional and some leave me scratching my head (how did this get approved?). Does the Masters program encourage folks to create ECs? Without question. I too have heard folks tell me that they have to develop one more so they can get their Platinum status. So, yes it does encourage folks to create...maybe at locations or levels of information which are less than ideal I will admit.

 

I was encouraged to get my Platinum status and went on to help many other folks get interested in ECs. I have had my hand in the development of almost three dozen ECs in my state.....three dozen EarthCaches which without the Masters program would likely not exist. Are they all stellar, must see locations with awesome writeups? No. But for the most part they serve to get the message out that ECs can be fun, can be educational and can be at magical locations....just not all the time.

 

We all know there have been ups and downs in the EC program....let's hope the new levels provide for us a little more excitement and perhaps draw in some new folks who know about that little, hidden location that none of us has seen before and the our visit to that place will leave us even more inspired by the Earth's beauty.

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cezanne,

You may know the cache developer, but did you get permission to hold up his cache as something beneath standards? If you did not receive permission, then it is a betrayal of friendship!

I haven't done a statistical analysis but if your thesis is true and people only place earthcaches to brag about achieving a certain level then why do most EC developers go on the develop many more ECs above the minimum required? Maybe the Masters program was the original incentive but now they are hooked into the more esoteric aspects of earthcaching! If so, the program worked!

To really prove your point, why don't you do a study and check to see what percent of earthcache developers stop with the Masters minimum? After finding those who stop, then examine their ECs to judge the quality. I am sure there are a few EC developers who stop with the Masters minimum, but it still doesn't prove that their ECs are inferior!

We were initially interested in the Masters program and that's how we fell in love with ECs. I will put up our ECs to compare to anyone's! We did not climb mountains and risk life and limb to develop an EC just for the Master's button! Try it sometime.

Thanks.

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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cezanne,

You may know the cache developer, but did you get permission to hold up his cache as something beneath standards?

 

It is not beneath the existing Earthcache standards. It is beneath the standards I would like to see for ECs.

geoaware has already explained that the Earthcache standards are a minimum requirement. The example I have taken

fulfills this minimum requirement. As a reviewer, I would have had to accept the cache.

 

I haven't done a statistical analysis but if your thesis is true and people only place earthcaches to brag about achieving a certain level

 

Of course that's not true. There are many other reasons as well. I fully agree with what Lostby7 wrote in his postings before yours.

 

I was just stating that the wish for reaching a certain level does in some cases lead to ECs that would not have existed otherwise and/or could

have been done better.

 

then why do most EC developers go on the develop many more ECs above the minimum required?

 

Actually, only a very small group of EC developpers in my country has more than 3-4 ECs (of course this special group exists, but for them the earthcache masters

program has not been the main incentive). Many of those I am talking about have exactly 1-3 ECs.

(Note that there are only 7 Austrian geocachers who have developped more than 100 caches in total and one of them has archived all of them - so I am talking about a completely different scenario with much smaller number of placed caches than in your area.)

I need to mention that there is a shortage of locations that suggest itself for an EC and there are quite a number of cachers who still have not reached 3 ECs of their own because other were faster with occupying certain locations. That's not that much of an issue in areas which are full of locations that suggest themselves for ECs.

 

 

To really prove your point, why don't you do a study and check to see what percent of earthcache developers stop with the Masters minimum?

 

Actually, I do not need a study as I am just stating that in my area the Earthcache masters program had quite a number of negative effects (from my point of view).

I am not denying that it also had positive ones. I even more far from making any claims worldwide as I have not followed the situation there.

A study will not change that there are negative effects on my personal EC experience caused by the masters program.

 

It is pretty much clear that someone with 60 (!) developped ECs like you (something really, really very impressive)

is not driven by the Earthcache masters program in the way I am talking of. (Maybe at the beginning, but that's not an issue for me.)

It appears to me that all your 60 ECs are somewhere in the nature - none of them is based on some man-made feature in the middle of a large city.

The second Viennese Earthcache is about a fountain (built from a Lapis Lazuli rock from South America, for a picture see here

http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/34d59862-a576-4086-aa03-b41ad388a533.jpg

Note that this example is not to drag anything into mud, just to explain that we might talk about different scenarios.

It might still be rewarding to visit the fountain (and to count the cobble stones around it if one cannot provide a photograph), but it is not what I

regard as Earthcaching.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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First of all, you offer no proof that the Masters Program has diluted the quality of earthcaches. Maybe , just maybe it has encouraged more visits and the enjoyment of ECs and the appreciation of geology. You have a right to your opinion, but most of us will wait and see what the new program will bring. I for one am proud of our Masters status and proud of our earthcaches.

Now to your point that really gives us pain. What right do you feel that is yours to publicly hold up another innocent (not part of the discussion) cachers EC for ridicule?

When you added the link to an EC that is beneath your dignity, you lost the argument. Why drag someone's work through the mud? By the way, 405 people thought enough of the EC to visit. The developer must have done something right.

Thanks.

 

I have to say that I read through that EC page as a non-geology person I enjoyed it. It wasn't difficult to read and filled with geology language that I don't understand. I could get what was being said there and learned from reading the page. And the tasks weren't overly and unnecessarily complicated. No they weren't measuring a rock or something. If I were to be faced with this earthcache versus one that was filled with stuff and complex logging tasks I would do this one. Ultimately what I want from an earth cache is some place cool to be. A tidbit of interesting lesson in the page and tasks that will not deter from my enjoyment of the cache. Ultimately that last point is why I didn't do a bunch of earth caches on vacation. The tasks and pages took away from my experience of where I was at because I was too wrapped up in trying to figure out language I didn't understand and tasks I couldn't figure out as a result.

 

I used to want to put some time and study into creating an earth cache as I think I would learn a lot but I'll never be a geologist. Even an amateur. Someone put this cache page together. They put time into this page and gave it some serious effort. They didn't need to be made the shining of example of a bad earth cache. They tried and good for them for trying.

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Ultimately what I want from an earth cache is some place cool to be. A tidbit of interesting lesson in the page and tasks that will not deter from my enjoyment of the cache. Ultimately that last point is why I didn't do a bunch of earth caches on vacation.

 

That's of course a valid point of view, but very different from mine. I do most Earthcaches in areas which I already know well. For me the main motivation for Earthcaches is being taught about the geological aspects of the locations which I in many cases already know from previous visits. I appreciate learning about geology without having to do the research in the internet and in books all alone by myself. I like to profit from the superior knowledge of others. If they just write in their cache page what everyone living in the area already knows and what is written on hundreds of webpages and if each nursery school children can answer the questions, it is getting boring for me and is a waste of time. (I do not need Earthcaches to visit locations that I already know.) For the same reason, I regard most caches in my area with a historical focus as boring for me as there are very few cachers with a real interest in the field, most just copy some information from signs or the first web page they find (and do not even check what they

copy for correctness) and more interested into the cache container than into the historical background. There are exceptions of course.

 

I particularly like Earthcaches which have logging tasks where one can check whether one has understood the provided lesson. For example, if one has to apply a classification scheme, explain something in one's own words etc. The topics can be at quite a basic level, but they should involve using one's brain and provide a proof for oneself that one really has learnt something and not just read something one will soon have forgotten again.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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