+spindlewood Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 After being found over 160 times, one of our caches has recently being criticised for being hidden in an Ivy covered tree. The words 'not very nice' and 'poisonous' formed part of the criticism. (GC16KDX). A substantial number of our own finds, over the years, have been within or close to Ivy and we have never considered this to be a problem, although we have seen a few logs by cachers in which they have stated that they will not search for caches in Ivy. We would like to hear what other UK cachers think, or do, about this problem. Ivy is often used as a hiding medium for caches, because of its good hiding ability and the fact that it retains its leaves all year round, but is it anti social to use Ivy in this way? As far as we can see Ivy is not officially excluded by gc.com in the UK. Quote Link to comment
+The Patrician Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Wikipedia says: "Toxicity The berries are moderately toxic to humans, but are very bitter, so poisoning is rare. Ivy foliage contains triterpenoid saponins and falcarinol, a polyyne; falcarinol is capable of inducing an allergic reaction (contact dermatitis) in some people. It has also been shown to kill breast cancer cells" Personally I don't see a problem (if I got the contact dermatitis I'd probably feel differently, no pun intended!). Quote Link to comment
+The Blorenges Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 We've never considered ivy to be a problem and have found loads of caches hidden in ivy, with one or two of them disguised with fake ivy leaves too. There are plenty of things in nature that are irritants/poisonous to some degree/cause allergic reactions in some people - e.g. MrB has a problem with lichen on rocks - but if every hider had to take every such possibility into consideration then cache hiding would become extremely difficult. I'd say, "Let the searcher beware." MrsB Quote Link to comment
+Amberel Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Ivy is often used as a hiding medium for caches, because of its good hiding ability and the fact that it retains its leaves all year round, but is it anti social to use Ivy in this way?No, not anti-social. The reason a lot of cachers don't like them is because frequently a micro in ivy involves a "brute force" search rather than a "thinking search" - something bigger than a micro tends to be less of a problem. So my comments really are directed at "micros in ivy" rather than at the ivy itself. Because so many micros are hidden in ivy they rarely make for an especially interesting hide. And they can show a lack of imagination. I don't rule out hiding caches in ivy, but I'd probably try to find an alternative before putting a micro there - I would want a good reason for doing it. Sometimes, though, if you want to take people to a particular location, there may be little alternative. And for a popular cache, it is possible for the ivy to be destroyed - something to keep an eye on. Rgds, Andy Edited January 30, 2011 by Amberel Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ivy is often used as a hiding medium for caches, because of its good hiding ability and the fact that it retains its leaves all year round, but is it anti social to use Ivy in this way?No, not anti-social. The reason a lot of cachers don't like them is because frequently a micro in ivy involves a "brute force" search rather than a "thinking search" - something bigger than a micro tends to be less of a problem. So my comments really are directed at "micros in ivy" rather than at the ivy itself. Because so many micros are hidden in ivy they rarely make for an especially interesting hide. And they can show a lack of imagination. Rgds, Andy Have to agree with the above comment. When I first started caches were larger -things called 'ammo cans' and they would be hidden in holes in trees, or the point where branches leave the trunk... Usually the "look for something odd" was to look for the tree with Ivy, or the multi-trunked tree. Now it seems to be a micro -or nano- placed in every other bit of ivy, just because you can... Quote Link to comment
+Just Roger Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 It's not too difficult to write a GSAK macro to delete any cache that is a micro with Ivy in the hint or title and call it at the end of the PQ download macro. Problem solved Quote Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I suspect that they are confusing ivy with poison ivy, a different unrelated plant not found in the UK. Quote Link to comment
+Boltonian Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I suspect that they are confusing ivy with poison ivy, a different unrelated plant not found in the UK. Thats what I was thinking, I would object to finding things in say nettles more than ivy. Quote Link to comment
+Croesgadwr Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I suspect that they are confusing ivy with poison ivy, a different unrelated plant not found in the UK. Thats what I was thinking, I would object to finding things in say nettles more than ivy. Nettles...and whats wrong with nettles? I love nettles, you leave nettles alone!!! Only joking, I've got to agree with you they are a bit unsociable... Also, I tend to be reluctant to search too long in Ivy, not because of any poison issues - rather theres just so many places to hide 'mini' caches. But, they've just got to be done! Once again I'm only joking about the nettles. Edited January 30, 2011 by seven of hearts Quote Link to comment
reelcutter Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have cache hidden in a holly hedge thats guarded by nettles when in season and I don't get any complaints, well not many. Quote Link to comment
+Original A1 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have cache hidden in a holly hedge thats guarded by nettles when in season and I don't get any complaints, well not many. Ah, but do you get any finds?! Anyway, I hate ivy, but will go for caches hidden in ivy nonetheless. It's better than gorse - we have a few masochists who seem to enjoy hiding caches in gorse up here - bleurgh. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Personally I don't mind caches in ivy, as long as the clue is something meaningful. When all you can see for 100 yards in all directions is trees covered with ivy, the cache is a film pot, and the clue says "in the ivy" or "ivy covered tree" I rapidly lose the inclination to hunt in every possible location for the elusive film pot. But perhaps others enjoy them. From what I gather from reading these forums there's a lot of us who dislike caches that are little more than exhaustive searches of potentially hundreds of possible books and crannies, but it would be a brave poster who faced the wrath of the forum by saying how much they enjoyed such searches. If all you need to do to encourage more people to look for it is provide a more useful clue, even if it's only something like "chest height" or "head height branch covered in ivy" or whatever, it seems a shame not to do that. Quote Link to comment
+Croesgadwr Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have cache hidden in a holly hedge thats guarded by nettles when in season and I don't get any complaints, well not many. Ah, but do you get any finds?! Anyway, I hate ivy, but will go for caches hidden in ivy nonetheless. It's better than gorse - we have a few masochists who seem to enjoy hiding caches in gorse up here - bleurgh. Gorse....! Don't get me started on Gorse!! Quote Link to comment
+reddeeps Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I think Ivy is fine, maybe they think its poison ivy like they have in USA. 160 finds and no ones complained before. I also think the next cache is child friendly as well, which I see they have commented about, my kids really enjoyed that one and never drowned!! I await them finding my ivy hides with great dread. editted to removed the word moaned Edited January 31, 2011 by reddeeps Quote Link to comment
+Hampk Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ivy is often used as a hiding medium for caches, because of its good hiding ability and the fact that it retains its leaves all year round, but is it anti social to use Ivy in this way?No, not anti-social. The reason a lot of cachers don't like them is because frequently a micro in ivy involves a "brute force" search rather than a "thinking search" - something bigger than a micro tends to be less of a problem. So my comments really are directed at "micros in ivy" rather than at the ivy itself. Because so many micros are hidden in ivy they rarely make for an especially interesting hide. And they can show a lack of imagination. I don't rule out hiding caches in ivy, but I'd probably try to find an alternative before putting a micro there - I would want a good reason for doing it. Sometimes, though, if you want to take people to a particular location, there may be little alternative. And for a popular cache, it is possible for the ivy to be destroyed - something to keep an eye on. Rgds, Andy nicely put - perhaps the problem is the plethora of 35mm film canisters and so on rather than ivy - I'd rather find a nice ammo box or dare I say a flare canister - remember those?! - but I can recall some excellent caches hidden in ivy Quote Link to comment
+Tiger-Eyes Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have done the cache in question (twice in fact as I didn't keep the clues the first time round) It is a great hide and possible to retrieve the cache without even touching the ivy. All the caches on this trail are hidden/disguised in different ways and a lot of thought was put into them. Spindlewood has hidden some extremely good caches in the nicest of locations in areas that even locals don't know about, the walks are a decent length and are a lot cleaner (very little litter or dog poo) than other locations I have been to. Keep placing them Spindlewood because your caches set an excellent example of what decent caches can be like. Quote Link to comment
+Guanajuato Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Caches in Ivy I don't mind. A long search and I can come up a bit itchy - i think its all the tiny dead bits that stick to your skin rather than a reaction as such. But trying to find film canisters (or smaller) in a wall covered in ivy just isn't fun. There's a micro in an ivy-coverd tree near us, but its not dense Ivy and its an interesting location, so its fine. Micros in Hawthorn bushes are a whole other thing. I'd NEVER do that. Quote Link to comment
+susiebear&co Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 We've really started something here! Let me start with a little background. We have only just start geocaching in the last few months and are really enjoying it. It's great to find all these nice new places with the addition of a challenge. Our son who is almost 3 really enjoys having a good 'dig' around for the caches, just as much as my wife and I do. The issue I have with Ivy, is that it can be an irritant (as in my case). I would therefore prefer not to search for caches in ivy, and do not wish my son to rummage through this plant in order to find a cache. In this instance, we had little choice as without finding all the caches, we could not find the bonus. It is also really frustrating when the co-ordinates take you to a group of trees, all covered in ivy (there are about 6 trees within 20 feet of the coords), and the clue tells you go look directly in it. It turned out that the cache was actually placed in a different tree altogether. The hide itself was actually rather nice, but frustrating it resulted in sore hands during the find. 'reddeeps' also commented about a later cache being child friendly. We don't allow our son to hunt for caches within 6 feet of a deep river. While it would be OK to locate the cache ourselves, then guide him in the right location, this is not as much fun for him. This is why I noted (not moaned) that this cache wasn't child friendly. This can also be said for the previous cache, where the container is located directly underneath barbed wire. We haven't set our own caches yet, so not sure if the options are fixed or not, but it may be better to have more options for 'kid friendly', or perhaps an age range. However, this would come down to the guardian of the child and their personal opinion on what is child friendly. Thank-you to Spindlewood for taking the time to read our logs, and raising this with the forum. It just goes to show that some cache owners are prepared to accept comments/suggestions from cachers, and take them on board. Quote Link to comment
+Tiger-Eyes Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 The issue I have with Ivy, is that it can be an irritant (as in my case). I would therefore prefer not to search for caches in ivy, and do not wish my son to rummage through this plant in order to find a cache. In this instance, we had little choice as without finding all the caches, we could not find the bonus. It is also really frustrating when the co-ordinates take you to a group of trees, all covered in ivy (there are about 6 trees within 20 feet of the coords), and the clue tells you go look directly in it. It turned out that the cache was actually placed in a different tree altogether. The hide itself was actually rather nice, but frustrating it resulted in sore hands during the find. May I suggest that you go caching with a "kit" like lots of other cachers (including myself) do, amongst other things in my kit I have gloves - thick ones for thorns/stingers as well as some latex ones, if I come across a cache that is hidden amongst something that would irritate me, I just pop a pair of gloves on. I also usually cache with a walking stick which I can use to move things out of the way without touching them, or even use a nearby twig. hope that helps Tiger Eyes Quote Link to comment
+reddeeps Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 'reddeeps' also commented about a later cache being child friendly. We don't allow our son to hunt for caches within 6 feet of a deep river. This is why I noted (not moaned) that this cache wasn't child friendly. We haven't set our own caches yet, so not sure if the options are fixed or not, but it may be better to have more options for 'kid friendly', or perhaps an age range. However, this would come down to the guardian of the child and their personal opinion on what is child friendly. I think maybe we visited when there was not so much water in the river then, as it was only about 6 inches deep and not very wide, perhaps after the recent winter this river is much deeper now. But I agree the child friendly icon can be hard to decide, as whats ok for one child is different for another, My children are older than yours, and one can go anywhere and never have a problem the other is very accident prone, so much so that sometimes walking on a flat surface in a straight line can be a challenge! I personally rate them as child friendly if I think children will enjoy them, they are not near roads or items I consider dangerous. But this again is subjective to each person. Quote Link to comment
+sTeamTraen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It's not the responsibility of every single cache owner to take into account every single possibility which might make it impossible for every single player of the game to find every single cache. Expressing frustration when you can't get to a cache, however, is natural; it means you're addicted. Welcome to the dark side, where everything that prevents us from finding a cache is a scandal, and the only question is whether we'll take one, two, or three pints to discuss it! Quote Link to comment
+spindlewood Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Many thanks to all the contributors to this topic, including ‘susiebear&co’ who are, in fact, its real originators. There have been some deviations to our original question about ivy, and its acceptability as a cache hiding place but this is often helpful on a forum as it broadens the issue. After reading all the postings It is clear to us that cachers, being individuals, suffer from a ‘variation’ of likes and dislikes as with any other social grouping, so it is always going to be impossible for cache owners to please all cache searchers all of the time. If a cache is placed in ivy; reference to this fact could be made in the cache description or the hint, thereby perhaps saving the cacher a wasted journey; should ivy pose an unacceptable problem for them. But then there are also all the other cachers unacceptability’s that could be taken into account, a lot of them are mentioned in this topic, but there are so many more. This would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a cache owner to locate a cache within a hiding environment that would suit all the likes and dislikes of all cachers. Perhaps a postal delivery of the cache to the searcher being the only final option. Gc.com has done its best to provide a certain amount of cache environmental information through the medium of ‘attributes’, but this is limited and is often not included on the cache sheet, and certainly doesn’t cater for ivy. Attributes are themselves subject to the vagaries of personal interpretation, for example we wouldn’t consider ‘Kid Friendly’ to mean three year old children be allowed to search for a cache located close to a river, but perhaps some cachers do, times change. Surely this comes under the heading ‘parental control’? This brings us to the conclusion that all final decisions concerning cache searches on the ground must be down to the searchers themselves. If a cache is unsuitable, for whatever reasons, don’t do it, even if this does ultimately prevent the finding of a bonus cache. To go through the process of finding caches hidden in ivy, when you have a known personal medical problem with ivy, seems a little peculiar, to say the least! Finally we think that it needs to be said; that whatever the ‘ivy’ problems are with a cache, the average cache owner will always initially respond more favourably to a private criticism/suggestion by email, rather than a criticism being placed publicly on the cache page. Particularly when the criticism has not been supported by the 160 + previous finders. Thanks once again to all the topic contributors, you have given us the confidence to state that our cache will remain as originally hidden, in the ivy! Quote Link to comment
+susiebear&co Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Thanks Splindlewood for your comments. I am not aware of having a medical problem with ivy, as this is the first time I have really buried my hands in it! I will certainly be more aware of this for the future! Apologies if I have offended you by posting our log, but as I mentioned we are new to geocaching and thought that was the proper way to notify yourself and future cachers of such 'hazards'. We will note this for future. This forum is great for these discussions, but shouldn't however be used for giving someone a public 'bashing'. Thanks to Tiger-Eyes for your positive suggestions - we will indeed think about taking some 'hunting instruments' with us in future! Quote Link to comment
+spindlewood Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Thanks for the apologies 'susiebear&co', but they really aren't necessary. Our original topic intention was solely about 'ivy' and its acceptability as a hiding medium for caches. We weren't sure ourselves of the situation but after reading the contributions we now feel that we can act within the general consensus, concerning ivy at least. As ever forum postings seem to change the shape of the original topic somewhat, and if 'susiebear&co' now feel that a 'public bashing' has become an appropriate label for this topic, then we feel that it is time to end it! Thanks to all of the contributors. Quote Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ivy or no ivy, I'd be pretty cautious about letting a 3 year old search for a cache in any undergrowth, not for fear of plant allergy but, life being as it is, for fear of discarded needles, glass and I'm sorry to mention it, dog poo. A cachng bag of likely "tools" is always a good plan Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Thanks to Tiger-Eyes for your positive suggestions - we will indeed think about taking some 'hunting instruments' with us in future! Often known a ToT or TotT - Tools of the Trade. Items can vary from cacher to cacher, but some items are common to most cachers! Edited January 31, 2011 by Bear and Ragged Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Perhaps a postal delivery of the cache to the searcher being the only final option. If only it were that easy - you'd need to provide a service so it could be posted to people at work with instructions where to leave it if nobody was available to sign for it Quote Link to comment
+westyrf Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 ICT is ok with me, it can just get a little frustrating hunting, especially in the dark! Gorse and hawthorn is worse though as that causes rashes and draws blood!! Quote Link to comment
+pklong Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Q. Is it OK to hide a cache in Ivy, even a micro? A. Of course you can. It's not against the guidelines. Q. Will I enjoy finding your cache? A. Probably not. Especially if it's a micro in a wall of Ivy that's like searching for a needle in a haystack, wet slimey muddey haystack too. Q. Are you some kind of micro cache or Ivy hateing weirdo? A. Probably, I'm sure there are lots out there who love that kind of hide. There are also lots who care not a jot about the cache itself, but love the smilie. Philip Quote Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Gc.com has done its best to provide a certain amount of cache environmental information through the medium of ‘attributes’, but this is limited and is often not included on the cache sheet, and certainly doesn’t cater for ivy. Attributes are themselves subject to the vagaries of personal interpretation, for example we wouldn’t consider ‘Kid Friendly’ to mean three year old children be allowed to search for a cache located close to a river, but perhaps some cachers do, times change. Surely this comes under the heading ‘parental control’? I have to agree that it does come down to parental control. My very first find was next to a river and I took my 5 year old daughter with me. I just made sure that where she searched she wasn't in any immediate danger. I don't have to worry as much now as she is now 12. I also organise a yearly CITO event on the same river. I list this event as child friendly, mainly because it is. But I certainly would question any parent who attended and allowed their young child to be next to the water unsupervised. Apologies if I have offended you by posting our log, but as I mentioned we are new to geocaching and thought that was the proper way to notify yourself and future cachers of such 'hazards'. We will note this for future. This forum is great for these discussions, but shouldn't however be used for giving someone a public 'bashing'. I don't know if you have offended Spindlewood or not. But in my opinion you had in your mind genuine concerns about the placement of caches. You were completely right to post these concerns within your log. Far to many people say you should send a quiet email to the cache owner. I can assure you that through experience posting directly to the cache page tends to get a response a lot quicker. It also allows other finders to decide for themselves if your comments are valid or not. I get the odd negative comments on my caches, I take notice of them and make a decision on whether action is required or whether I should just leave it to see if anyone else has the same issues. Dependant on the possible severity of the negative comments I may disable the cache until I can physically check the claims out. As for a public bashing, well it is all in the eye of the beholder and if you feel as though you have been ridiculed or victimised then I am sorry to see that. My opinion however is that this is a genuine thread with an owners genuine concerns over comments that questioned the safety of the placement of his caches. I think he has done the right thing to clarify the situation. In my view no one else has belittled your comments either, but answered a genuine query. To finish off, welcome to the addiction, I hope you have many a good time going out finding caches. Always be honest in your logs, some people will dislike you for it, but others will thank you. Quote Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 To answer the original question. Hiding caches in ivy is fine, even if it can be frustrating searching for it. Quote Link to comment
+Yorkie30 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Ivy (Hedera) can cause irritation to skin and also to people with asthma in summer due to the dust or fine root hairs that can be given off if disturbed too much. If I had to do a risk assessment at work for people working with it, removing from walls etc then they would need goggles, gloves and a dust mask. Yew (Taxus) can also cause irritation to skin and the berries and leaves are also poisonous if eaten. Many plants can cause problems to different people put its part of the risk of going outside and living life. I have seen someone suffer from the spores of a fern and needed oxygen to help recover by an ambulance crew – it can be very unexpected what some people will react to in nature. If you are not happy walk away - its only another smiley face. Quote Link to comment
+gazooks Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I agree that my main moan about ivy covered trees is the use of micros - never a problem if the cache is of reasonable size. Did one micro recently where there were several possible locations - GPS pointed to middle of path and the clue was 'The Hedera is really helpful' - couldn't find it - no surprise there. Although it now seems the cache is missing. However, I must admit to having a micro sized cache in an ivy covered tree ...... but the cache title includes the words ivy covered tree and the tree itself is the only ivy covered tree you can see - never had a DNF Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 If you are not happy walk away - its only another smiley face. I think this sums it up pretty well. If you know you are sensitive to something, or suspect you may be, avoid it. It's not sensible to expect every single cache to be 100% accessible to everyone regardless of their circumstances. Quote Link to comment
+spears67 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 We've really started something here! Let me start with a little background. We have only just start geocaching in the last few months and are really enjoying it. It's great to find all these nice new places with the addition of a challenge. Our son who is almost 3 really enjoys having a good 'dig' around for the caches, just as much as my wife and I do. The issue I have with Ivy, is that it can be an irritant (as in my case). I would therefore prefer not to search for caches in ivy, and do not wish my son to rummage through this plant in order to find a cache. In this instance, we had little choice as without finding all the caches, we could not find the bonus. It is also really frustrating when the co-ordinates take you to a group of trees, all covered in ivy (there are about 6 trees within 20 feet of the coords), and the clue tells you go look directly in it. It turned out that the cache was actually placed in a different tree altogether. The hide itself was actually rather nice, but frustrating it resulted in sore hands during the find. 'reddeeps' also commented about a later cache being child friendly. We don't allow our son to hunt for caches within 6 feet of a deep river. While it would be OK to locate the cache ourselves, then guide him in the right location, this is not as much fun for him. This is why I noted (not moaned) that this cache wasn't child friendly. This can also be said for the previous cache, where the container is located directly underneath barbed wire. We haven't set our own caches yet, so not sure if the options are fixed or not, but it may be better to have more options for 'kid friendly', or perhaps an age range. However, this would come down to the guardian of the child and their personal opinion on what is child friendly. Thank-you to Spindlewood for taking the time to read our logs, and raising this with the forum. It just goes to show that some cache owners are prepared to accept comments/suggestions from cachers, and take them on board. Eeek! Sorry Susiebear&co my most recent cache was exactly everything you hate! It was in ivy and had a clue which said 'ivy covered tree' in a wood full of ivy covered trees. I'm glad though that you managed to find it without too much of a problem. I will bare this in mind with my part 2 of the series and avoid ivy! I hate it too though as I suffer from contact dermatitis and ivy caches tend to be very well hidden involving much rummaging but hey ho it's part of the game isn't it? Spears. Quote Link to comment
+NattyBooshka Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I much prefer holly for a hide I don't have an issue with Ivy myself... people are allergic to all sorts of things, and we can't avoid all of them. Yes, someone's going to discover an allergy the hard way, but as three of the 5 in the team have allergies, we go prepared and never leave home without the needed medication. Quote Link to comment
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