Cachers Who Commit Illegal Act to Find Cache

[+Castle Mischief]

I'd say that this is a tricky subject at best.

 

I think the best way to avoid potential law breaking is to USE ATTRIBUTES which a lot of owners do not do.

 

I agree that attributes are important, but people willing to jump fences and ignore posted hours won't let a little thing like an attribute slow them down.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Personally I don't like placing caches in parks because of muggle activity and since most parks close at dusk you know that there are some cachers who will go for it even if it's midnight just to be the FTF.

I've had success asking my local reviewer to delay publication of my caches in parks until the morning hours, for precisely this reason. Sometimes it means my caches don't get published right away - my reviewer publishes caches when he/she has the time to do it, and there is a stretch where that's usually in the evenings, then it means my caches may have to wait a few days. But I think that's a small price to pay.

 

When I use the "Not Avialable 24 Hours" attribute, by local reviewer will not publish it until the next morning, to avoid the after hours FTF rush.

[+northernpenguin]

We often hear it is important to delete these logs and/or have the logger edit them, most often because we may cause a land manager to pull caching.

 

What looks worse? A land manager has a cache on a Watch list and sees a questionable log. He then goes back later and finds that log is missing or no longer reads the same way. NOW it looks like cachers not only perform illegal acts but also make efforts to hide these activities as well.

 

Leave the log and it eventually scrolls off the page anyway. What's next? Every time someone mentions "racing for a cache" we want to delete the log lest it appear cachers also engage in street racing?

 

There are a lot of factors in play here that will vary with the area: the relationship between the local land managers and the caching community, the wording of the log itself, the type of illegal activity performed, etc. Depending on all of those my reaction would range from:

 

- Meh

- Email finder asking to remove reference to the act

- Delete the log

 

Actually, the land managers I have talked to about geocaching on their properties whole heartedly want references to illegal activities removed from logs - they don't want the next finder thinking that's an acceptable practice. Of course, they would prefer the illegal acts - specifically trespassing when the properties are closed or finding an access point that avoids the gatehouse/fee for the property - never occurred in the first place.

[+model12]

If you place a cache that starts to get a lot of logs saying that the finders trespassed, climbed a fence, parked and took a short-cut, etc...then you seriously need to reconsider your choice of GZ. While it's nice to place caches in interesting places, the reality is that some people cannot follow simple logic and courtesy, or the law, and will eventually cause a problem with a land manager or property owner. Better to move your cache to a better location.

 

I think it would be in the best interest of protecting the game's reputation if Groundspeak itself would delete any logs that mention the commission of an illegal act in the finding of a cache. A slap-on-the-wrist suspension of your account privileges would be a nice touch too, IMHO. Local reviewers should be given the power to suspend users for illegal activity. Never happen of course; Groundspeak seems not to care about the real-world consequences of the game, or it's player's actions on it.

[Mr.Yuck]

If you place a cache that starts to get a lot of logs saying that the finders trespassed, climbed a fence, parked and took a short-cut, etc...then you seriously need to reconsider your choice of GZ. While it's nice to place caches in interesting places, the reality is that some people cannot follow simple logic and courtesy, or the law, and will eventually cause a problem with a land manager or property owner. Better to move your cache to a better location.

 

I think it would be in the best interest of protecting the game's reputation if Groundspeak itself would delete any logs that mention the commission of an illegal act in the finding of a cache. A slap-on-the-wrist suspension of your account privileges would be a nice touch too, IMHO. Local reviewers should be given the power to suspend users for illegal activity. Never happen of course; Groundspeak seems not to care about the real-world consequences of the game, or it's player's actions on it.

 

Something must have happened in your area recently, or even with one of your own caches.

 

Peer pressure, and making comments in logs works. Worked in my area way back in 2005 or 2006, when a bunch of highly competitive then n00b FTF fanatics were running around in parks and cemeteries at 3:00 AM with flashlights and stuff. And then it appears to have worked again just a few weeks ago in my area, when a "new generation" FTF hound proudly proclaimed 12:22 AM in their log that they FTF'd a cache in a City Park that is clearly posted as closing at dusk.

[+FiveEyes]

Something that occurred to me which I don't see mentioned in the discussion above, is the fact that geocachers are hardly the only people who might enter a park when it's closed, or climb a fence, trespass, or do other things which might bother a land manager, park ranger, private property owner, etc. The fact that geocachers may write logs where they state that they have done such things, doesn't mean they are the only ones doing them or even the primary ones doing such things. For instance, teenagers looking for some sort of illicit adventure do a lot of illegal things in their quest, and entering parks after the parks are closed is probably one of the milder sorts of such activities they undertake, and their accounts of such activities may not be on geocaching.com, but may be on Facebook or other social media. A friend of mine wanted to camp in a local campground and was puzzled to see the campground had a "closed" sign up, and then saw the campground manager, who said that the grounds weren't really closed, that the closed sign was just to keep out the problematic teens in the area. Many public parks are now seeing an enormous increase in "tagging" types of vandalism (in the southwest, vandals are even spray-painting their tags on organ pipe cactuses), yet I doubt these parks will close to teenagers because some young people are doing these things.

[Mr.Yuck]

Something that occurred to me which I don't see mentioned in the discussion above, is the fact that geocachers are hardly the only people who might enter a park when it's closed, or climb a fence, trespass, or do other things which might bother a land manager, park ranger, private property owner, etc. The fact that geocachers may write logs where they state that they have done such things, doesn't mean they are the only ones doing them or even the primary ones doing such things. For instance, teenagers looking for some sort of illicit adventure do a lot of illegal things in their quest, and entering parks after the parks are closed is probably one of the milder sorts of such activities they undertake, and their accounts of such activities may not be on geocaching.com, but may be on Facebook or other social media. A friend of mine wanted to camp in a local campground and was puzzled to see the campground had a "closed" sign up, and then saw the campground manager, who said that the grounds weren't really closed, that the closed sign was just to keep out the problematic teens in the area. Many public parks are now seeing an enormous increase in "tagging" types of vandalism (in the southwest, vandals are even spray-painting their tags on organ pipe cactuses), yet I doubt these parks will close to teenagers because some young people are doing these things.

 

Just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't mean we should. I don't want to go all "forum regular with 8,000 posts" on you, but this topic has come up dozens of times over the years, and it's been generally agreed upon that we Geocachers should not be running around with flashlights in closed parks at 2:00 in the morning, and it's a black eye on the game. And of course this almost always happens with the FTF crowd, but not always.

 

I live just outside a small City, that is considered a suburb of a larger City, and this small City has it's own (rather lame) daily newspaper. The Police blotter is chock full of "in a park after hours" reports and arrests. We also have a couple of free weekly community newspapers (one of which I help deliver door to door with 13 yr. old Yuck Jr.), and the same applies there. It might even be the most common charge you see in these Police Blotters.

[+AutisticMajor]

Something that occurred to me which I don't see mentioned in the discussion above, is the fact that geocachers are hardly the only people who might enter a park when it's closed, or climb a fence, trespass, or do other things which might bother a land manager, park ranger, private property owner, etc. The fact that geocachers may write logs where they state that they have done such things, doesn't mean they are the only ones doing them or even the primary ones doing such things. For instance, teenagers looking for some sort of illicit adventure do a lot of illegal things in their quest, and entering parks after the parks are closed is probably one of the milder sorts of such activities they undertake, and their accounts of such activities may not be on geocaching.com, but may be on Facebook or other social media. A friend of mine wanted to camp in a local campground and was puzzled to see the campground had a "closed" sign up, and then saw the campground manager, who said that the grounds weren't really closed, that the closed sign was just to keep out the problematic teens in the area. Many public parks are now seeing an enormous increase in "tagging" types of vandalism (in the southwest, vandals are even spray-painting their tags on organ pipe cactuses), yet I doubt these parks will close to teenagers because some young people are doing these things.

 

Most every park I've seen with a gate also has a little path leading around the gate. I feel this is more of a safety issue, as trespassing is somewhat of a minor crime, and not truly 'illegal'. Going into a 'closed' park after dark means one is more likely to encounter wildlife, partying teens, broken glass and other dangerous things. The parks are closed because the owners don't want to be sued.

 

[edit: sentence order]

Edited July 4, 2013 by AutisticMajor

[+Walts Hunting]

Quote from above

 

trespassing is somewhat of a minor crime, and not truly 'illegal'.

 

I used to have people tell me something like that as I was putting the cuffs on them and hauling them to jail. And of course there is you trying to tell the judge that trespassing isn't a crime as he locks you up.

 

Love that kind of approack to law enforcement

[AZcachemeister]

If a park has a fence and/or gate that needs to be climbed, then I could see how anyone in there should be arrested and 'spend the night'.

 

Here in Arizona, I have yet to see a park with an enclosing fence with a gate that needed to be climbed to enter the park. I have noticed 'dusk to dawn' closure details on park signs.

Even so, I have talked to more than a few officers while in such parks after hours, and have not been told/asked to leave.

 

Because of this, my assessment is that (in Arizona at least), the park hours are posted to add additional leverage for when someone is caught causing trouble in the park, and not necessarily to keep people out of the parks at night.

 

YMMV

Don't try this at home.

Professional driver on closed course.

[4wheelin_fool]

Law enforcement usually does not prosecute or care about cachers who ignore park hours, as the signs are meant to deter other types of illegal behavior such as drinking, pot smoking, breaking bottles, vandalism, bonfires, and to avoid lawsuits in the event of injuries. Oh you are geocaching? Okay, just don't do it again. The park managers however usually don't care too much either unless they notice it all too often, then they figure geocachers are generally disrespectful, and are likely to enact a large ban, or highly restrictive permit system. Many small events often go unnoticed until the frequency increases and then something specific suddenly will turn off one person in particular who gets vocal and goes ballistic. It's like building a house of cards which slowly gets bigger and bigger without any issue until one day...

[+tallglenn]

 

Most every park I've seen with a gate also has a little path leading around the gate. I feel this is more of a safety issue, as trespassing is somewhat of a minor crime, and not truly 'illegal'. Going into a 'closed' park after dark means one is more likely to encounter wildlife, partying teens, broken glass and other dangerous things. The parks are closed because the owners don't want to be sued.

 

[edit: sentence order]

 

I've often asked myself "WHY???" when seeing a "park closed" sign. What, the trees are sleeping? The trails are covered in pixie dust? The parking lot is recuperating? Dammlawyers...there always seems to be plenty of money for No-No signs.

[+AutisticMajor]

Quote from above

 

trespassing is somewhat of a minor crime, and not truly 'illegal'.

 

I used to have people tell me something like that as I was putting the cuffs on them and hauling them to jail. And of course there is you trying to tell the judge that trespassing isn't a crime as he locks you up.

 

Love that kind of approack to law enforcement

 

How likely you are to be arrested for this depends on local law enforcement. I don't mean that it isn't a crime, but that it's a minor crime. I doubt that if a police officer had to choose between arresting a person openly peddling drugs and a trespasser, they would go for the latter.

[team tisri]

If a park has a fence and/or gate that needs to be climbed, then I could see how anyone in there should be arrested and 'spend the night'.

 

Here in Arizona, I have yet to see a park with an enclosing fence with a gate that needed to be climbed to enter the park. I have noticed 'dusk to dawn' closure details on park signs.

Even so, I have talked to more than a few officers while in such parks after hours, and have not been told/asked to leave.

 

Because of this, my assessment is that (in Arizona at least), the park hours are posted to add additional leverage for when someone is caught causing trouble in the park, and not necessarily to keep people out of the parks at night.

 

YMMV

Don't try this at home.

Professional driver on closed course.

 

A park I particularly enjoy visiting when I'm in the US has a "Park closes at sunset" sign. I asked the staff there what the implications were if I wanted to stick around and take some pictures of the park in the setting sun and potentially end up remaining until after the sun had technically set, or if I wanted to go out and take some pictures in the moonlight. They specifically said the rules were there to give them the freedom to remove anyone causing trouble and that if I was just minding my own business taking pictures there wouldn't be any problem - the worst that might happen is a ranger would ask me to pack up my stuff and move on.

[4wheelin_fool]

Quote from above

 

trespassing is somewhat of a minor crime, and not truly 'illegal'.

 

I used to have people tell me something like that as I was putting the cuffs on them and hauling them to jail. And of course there is you trying to tell the judge that trespassing isn't a crime as he locks you up.

 

Love that kind of approack to law enforcement

 

How likely you are to be arrested for this depends on local law enforcement. I don't mean that it isn't a crime, but that it's a minor crime. I doubt that if a police officer had to choose between arresting a person openly peddling drugs and a trespasser, they would go for the latter.

 

Yes, the police are not very concerned about cachers. It's drinking and vandalism that bothers them. But after the park managers hear about cachers going in late at night from law enforcement, they may ban the entire activity, as this has happened a few times. There is a list of places where geocaching is not welcome and the underlying cause can be narrowed down to simple disrespect.

[+The Rat]

I am rather surprised at the vehemence on this topic, which I think is misplaced. First, let me say that I respect park rules and encourage others to do so, but I don't see it as the CO's duty to patrol/police that. I'll give you an example. I was participating in a puzzle/geocaching contest where points were awarded by the CO based on rank in finding, i.e. FTF gets the most, 2TF the next most, etc. I solved the puzzle the evening it came out, which was around 9 or 10 pm. The cache page gave the park hours, which were closed at sunset. I checked the coordinates on Google Earth and saw that the cache was about 100 feet outside the park. I checked three other maps, including the official park map and all four showed it to be outside the park. I drove there that evening and entered the area from a path that connected to a public street. There was no sign indicating it was a park entrance or otherwise restricting access. I never passed into or through the park although the cache could be accessed by going through the park. I found the cache, signed the log as FTF and then went home and logged online, mentioning that the park hours comment was a red herring (which I thought it was) and that the cache is accessible from a public street without entering the park. The CO later said the rangers had told him all that area was part of the park so he disallowed my points in the contest. He didn't delete my log, but he basically screwed me for the contest. As CO he had total control of the points, but it soured me totally on his caches and my relationship with other geocachers participating in the contest. Park hours are not a serious offense, and I say, leave it to the rangers or police to monitor that. Geocachers constantly break park rules, often unintentionally, such as leaving the trail, to get caches. Do you delete a log when a geocacher says they took a wrong turn and ended up bushwhacking? To me it's equivalent to the park hours question -- not the CO's job.

 

From the title, I thought this was about serious illegality, like vandalism. That's worthy of discussion, and I think the real problem is cache owners who camouflage their caches to look like sprinklers, padlocks, pest traps, etc. They think they're being clever, and too many geocachers reward this kind of thing with favorite points, but to me it just promotes geocachers fiddling with (which becomes breaking) such stuff not only at that cache location, but elsewhere. I've seen cachers get rousted by police and security guards while searching for such caches and I personally have broken real sprinklers unintentionally when the CO hint suggested it was in something wet and round, etc. Now I just take a DNF and post a disapproving log on stuff like that. I think that kind of cache is what brings geocachers into disrepute. Then of course there's the problem of geocachers taking the good swag and leaving nothing, or inferior stuff. It may not technically be a crime, but it borders on theft.

Edited July 5, 2013 by The Rat

[Mr.Yuck]

I won't quote The Rat, but I read it all with great interest. There are a lot more "it's no big deal" posts than usual, since this thread has been bumped. I really like 4Wheelinfools posts though. It's just not a good idea for us to cache in closed after dark parks, despite it being "no big deal", and it's not like we're vandalizing, smoking pot, or having underage drinking parties.

 

What about Cemeteries? This may or may not apply in other Countries, but I think just about any volunteer reviewer in the U.S. will tell you that no night caching should not be permitted in Cemeteries. Some of them will even tell you to put it on the cache page before they will publish, if it's not there already. I doubt there has been an edict from Groundspeak HQ though. Hey, that's why they're Guidelines, and not rules, right?

Edited July 6, 2013 by Mr.Yuck

[+frinklabs]

I was FTF on a cemetery cache at night -- but only because when I checked it out, there was no gate or signage with hours of operations. I took many photos, just in case it was an issue (which it wasn't).

 

Meanwhile, had I been stopped there (or in our city parks which are implicitly "closed" but have extensive useful bike paths) I would have spun my presence as a good thing: Cachers are more responsible than your average bear and its a good thing we're there at night because we would report any malfeasance we saw.

[Mr.Yuck]

I was FTF on a cemetery cache at night -- but only because when I checked it out, there was no gate or signage with hours of operations. I took many photos, just in case it was an issue (which it wasn't).

 

Meanwhile, had I been stopped there (or in our city parks which are implicitly "closed" but have extensive useful bike paths) I would have spun my presence as a good thing: Cachers are more responsible than your average bear and its a good thing we're there at night because we would report any malfeasance we saw.

 

Notice I was careful to say the U.S. I haven't followed along in years, but I believe Tennessee has banned cemetery caching Statewide. South Carolina was the first to try to ban it Statewide, but If I'm not mistaken, it didn't pass the 2nd house of the legislature there, and the bill died.

 

The South Carolina thing happened way back in 2004 or 2005, when Geocaching was much smaller, and it was seriously bad news and bad publicity. In my opinion, Geocaching.com has been walking on eggshells with cemetery caching in the U.S. to this day. Some reviewers in some states (there's that inconsistency thing ) ask for explicit permission for cemetery caches.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Mr.Yuck