Your opinion: Shiny Copper on coins

[+anne.and.eli]

Hi all,

 

I've been having a long standing debate (debate is a super strong word for it really, but let's go with it) with a friend about the use of shiny copper in geocoins. I personally stay far away from them as they tarnish very quickly (i.e. the metal starts getting black areas), and I figure if I ever want to resell/give away/whatever, I won't feel comfortable giving a tarnished coin.

 

Is this fear unfounded? Do people even care? Antique copper does not tarnish like shiny copper does, but transluscent enamels look quite different on antique copper than shiny copper.

 

So what are your thoughts? Shiny copper - yay or nay?

[+Landsharkz]

Shiny copper tarnishes quickly and we've also seen it lose it's plating rarely, but it happens. We never recommend it and any time a customer insists on it, we give fair warning.

 

Antique copper starts out the same as shiny copper. One of the final stages is to give the coin a chemical process, (after it's painted and plated) which dulls the IHE paint. This is the same on all antique finishes. Even after the final polishing it won't be gleaming like the IHE on polished plating coins like BN, PN and PG for example. It's ok..., but it's important to know this, in case you look at some PN and AC coins side by side and wonder why one gleams and one is a bit duller on the IHE.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Landsharkz

[+drneal]

I don't sell coins, but I have some of the older coins...copper just doesn't seem to hold up as well...I'm a little fanatical (okay, a lot,) about handling my coins...they are placed in there little mylar beds with my hands in surgical gloves, so as not to leave fingerprints, placed in coin holder pages, sealed in place with clear avery mailing seals, and still occasionally tarnish...copper is the worst.

 

Shiny copper...nay, unless you're willing to not ever touch them.

 

ILYK

[+CCWelch]

I am for the shiny copper finishes but then again I like the look of copper as it ages and tarnishes (yes I am strange I know) however as far as making a coin I have been told the best sellers are polished nickel and bright brass(gold).

I do know from experience that the copper does tarnish fast so if you are looking at having a coin around for a while before resale I would say don't do it. My AE Medicine Wheel copper feather is already tarnishing but the wheel itself is not.

[+ElliPirelli]

I have a Danish Geocoin 2008 in shiny copper.

It still looks nice and shiney and I can't really say, that it tarnished.

But then, it's not travelling, it's in a pvc cover (bad, I know) in my coin box. (Also bad....)

 

The only tarnished coins are in my experience the black nickel ones. They loose the black pretty quickly when handled.

 

I like the shiny copper, but I also like antik copper.

And I won't ever touch my coins with gloves, I'm afraid.

[+AtlantaGal]

If the coin is mostly inked, then both shiny copper and black nickel are fine to use. If the coin has a lot of metal showing, then it's best to stay away from BOTH finishes. Not only do they tarnish, but black nickel will lose it's shine quickly and become dull, and shiny copper can get the "oil in water" rainbow effect. You know what gasoline and oil look like in a puddle of water? Shiny copper will look just like that once oxidation sets in.

[+ECplus3]

Another thing to keep in mind (for all coins) is what you store them in. The PVC flips that most coins are shipped in are probably the worst thing you can store them in. Even the low-plasticizer flips can degrade over time, releasing hydrochloric acid, chloroethylene epoxide, and formic acid. These chemicals will quickly pit and tarnish your coins. It is better to put them in mylar or polyester flips that you can get at any coin dealer.

[+redwingrr]

I prefer other metals, myself. Shiny copper would be my least favorite copper. (Although rarely it does "fit" the colors/design, to my eye) I don't like partly tarnished copper for the same reasons you stated - it just doesn't look "right".

My favorite copper would be old, aged, evenly tarnished to green! Like a roof!

[+ice13-333]

I dont like the shiny ones (not only copper) - they get much faster fingerprints and other "problems" as the antique ones... And i like non-shiny options more...

[GregsonVaux]

This topic is supremely interesting to me, since I am always thinking about coin longevity. I have often wondered how long we can really expect any of the platings to last. I don't claim to know the answer, but I have always assumed that all of the platings will come off after several decades even under ideal conditions. Based on chemical reactivity, I would guess that nickel and gold platings will last the longest. Black nickel probably has a different oxidation state and may not have the same durability as elemental nickel (i.e. PN and AN).

 

In the art world, it is well known that artifacts will acquire an oxidation or corrosion coating over time known as a patina. In the best cases, this patina is seen as desirable and characteristic of an object that has experienced the passage of time. However, a poorly made object will not age well and will just look old and junky. The question is this, which geocoins will still look good after 10 years? Which will still look good after 100 years? How the coins are stored is probably the most important factor, but the materials they are made with is a close second. I stay away from silver for this reason. I used to think that copper would not last, but I have seen 100 year old copper coins that still look great and I know that there are 2000 year old copper coins that are in decent condition. I think the key here is whether we are talking about pure copper or copper plating. Of course we can alloy the copper with tin to make bronze, which greatly increases durability.

 

Which metal will best survive the passage of time? Gold will still look brand new after thousands of years, but it is soft and expensive. Nickel is probably the second best choice for corrosion resistance, but it is hard. The hardness of nickel is good for resistance to denting and abrasion, but it also makes the coins more difficult to mint and the mint that I am currently using does not produce coins with nickel cores.

Edited December 30, 2010 by GregsonVaux

[+Droo]

I think over time all coins will lose their "newness".... their shine and colour clarity. These aren't jewelry quality platings we're talking about here so even gold will oxidize as seen by the recent photos posted of the early (2004) USAGeocoins so expecting to preserve them for 100 years is a lofty endeavour. Personally I love tarnished bronze and oxidized copper but on a geocoin it won't work for just any design. Some designs can last the test of time (and corrosion) and others don't. What designs are those? Ask 10 different people and you'll 10 different answers.

[+GATOULIS]

hmm....

 

by "give away" you mean give them as a present to someone??

 

Well... we use to say here... if someone gives you a donkey for free... do not examine the donkeys teeth if they are ok...

 

so... I wouldn't mind if there isa small corrosion or anything in the coins... after all.. they are gifts!

 

Now about shiny copper.. I like the metal! I am wondering... isn't a way to keep the corrosion off? I mean... something like a paint but without a color... to keep the copper shiny? if not, maybe if you put the copper coins (if they are round) in an airtide plastic capsule, things will be ok unless the capsule is open!

 

moisture does the whole job in the corrosion and discoloration of a coin... if we manage to keep this off.. the coin will be fine!

 

Now.. after some years, it will become darker (if it is not in a capsule) but this is the normal patina of a coin!

 

Coin collectors actually love the patina in a coin... even if we see it as a not a nice thing...

 

Of course... everything depends on what cachers like... if they do not preffer a shiny copper... then shiny copper will not be a choise for a coin...

 

Just remember... do all the coin metals stay the same?? no! I have seen black nickel that after some use and I am not talking about drops in caches... but a pass from hand to hand... the black nickel left in some areas and you can see the shiny nickel inside! Is that nice?? what is the difference between this and the corrosion of shiny copper?

 

Except that...I have to mention that... a big part of corrosion of a coin may play the metal that the coin is made of! if there is a failure in the metal, or it is not a good metal, and faces difficulties of weather, humidity etc...

 

for example... take the 1,2 or 5 eurocent coins.... if you let them out in the rain for some days... forget them... the iron inside gets rusty and the coin is gone... the outer copper leaf will make bubles that will open and rust will come out... or you may see disformation of the coin... until it dies...

I have a german 10 pfenning coin that the iron is gone and I have only the outer metal jacket that was covering the coin to look like bronze! so...

[+LadyBee4T]

I don't especially like the looks of either finish of copper at all but I know that's not really what you are asking. I can only speak for durability. I have 3 dogs with geodog coins on their collars. I had to take one off because the the tracking number wore off. It was the copper one. The other two are bronze and gold and are still fine.

[GregsonVaux]

These aren't jewelry quality platings we're talking about here so even gold will oxidize as seen by the recent photos posted of the early (2004) USAGeocoins so expecting to preserve them for 100 years is a lofty endeavour.

 

Most coins are a metal plating over bronze. Once the plating comes off, you will have a bronze coin and its longevity will depend on the quality of the bronze. High quality bronze that is kept in a friendly environment can last thousands of years.

 

As to the gold plating, it is real gold and I think that its durability depends on how well the coin was cleaned before the plating was applied, the thickness of the plating, how much it has been scratched, and the quality of the metal underneath. I don't believe that the gold is oxidizing because gold simply does not do that. I think what may be possible is that the coin was not properly cleaned before plating, or the metal underneath is corroding causing the plating to flake off. Another possibility is that the gold plating is not pure gold, but the mint I deal with told me that the gold is 18-24k in purity. Maybe they are lying; I simply do not know.

Edited December 30, 2010 by GregsonVaux

[GregsonVaux]

hmm....

 

Now about shiny copper.. I like the metal! I am wondering... isn't a way to keep the corrosion off? I mean... something like a paint but without a color... to keep the copper shiny? if not, maybe if you put the copper coins (if they are round) in an airtide plastic capsule, things will be ok unless the capsule is open!

 

 

This topic is extremely important to me and I have been thinking about it since 1986 (this gives away my age)so it has affected how I have minted my coins. I have already been in discussions with the mint and I hope to offer a solution with my second coin (Dwarven Treasure 2011). About the coating you mention, my understanding is that all geocoins are coated with a protective finish just as you describe. It will protect the coin until it oxidizes, is scratched off, or rubbed off. I would expect this coating to last several decades in a good environment, but it could be compromised in seconds if someone is banging the coin against something.

Edited December 30, 2010 by GregsonVaux

[+GeocoinGuy]

Polished Copper is a good plating - take Cheesy Pigs Boomerang for example. The simplest way to prevent the aging effects on a coin is to epoxy coat it. Epoxy coating will protect the coins and even under extreme circumstances, will be brilliant for years (as long as you don't use it for a hockey puck)

 

~J

[GregsonVaux]

Polished Copper is a good plating - take Cheesy Pigs Boomerang for example. The simplest way to prevent the aging effects on a coin is to epoxy coat it. Epoxy coating will protect the coins and even under extreme circumstances, will be brilliant for years (as long as you don't use it for a hockey puck)

 

~J

I think you are right about epoxy being excellent protection. I had clear epoxy put on some of my sample coins, but nearly everyone did not like how it looked, so I will be leaving it off of the final production. What is unclear to me is how epoxy will last over time. Perhaps it will be good for several hundred years, or it may last only tens of years. I simply do not know the answer. My own preference is real enamel, which is a glass coating melted on the coin in a furnace. I have seen real enamel objects from the 1400s that look like new. The color on all current geocoins is immitation enamel, which is either an epoxy or plastic. My suspicion is that it will first change color, then crack, and then flake off. However, I do not know how long that process will take. What I do believe is that as long as the imitation enamel is intact, it will protect the coin.

Edited December 30, 2010 by GregsonVaux

[avroair]

I don't like copper finished coins, they usually don't work unless a color scheme is drafted with copper in mind.

[GregsonVaux]

I don't like copper finished coins, they usually don't work unless a color scheme is drafted with copper in mind.

 

Can you give examples of what does and doesn't go well with copper? I don't consider choosing colors to be one of my strengths so I am curious to hear more about this. Personally, I like the color of copper so I would like to know more about how to make it look its best. The standard choice seems to be to pair it with green. We of course see this with red haired Irish women who always seem to be in green dresses. However, I'll bet that there are other color combinations that can make copper look great.

Edited December 30, 2010 by GregsonVaux

[+cache_in_hand]

I love the antique copper but shy away from the shiny, I think it looks cheap. Just my opinion of course. As for color schemes that don't look so good with copper. Please, stay away from red. Enough said.