FTF Stat on the stats list.

[+Rosemark]

I would still like a FTF stat kept on the stats page. I know the biggest obstacle to this is the fact that the First to Find is not always the First to Log on Groundspeak, so the FTF stat could go to the wrong cacher, but I think there is a simple fix to this problem.

 

The Fix: Do not automatically issue a FTF Stat based on who logged it first on Groundspeak. Have the Cache owner assign the FTF after confirming who actually found it. In most cases the posts reveal who was the true FTF, so it should be easy for the Cache Owner to figure out who to assign the FTF to. I know that on the rare occasion where the FTF is disputed the Case Owner may have to check the actual log, but that would be rare, and not that big a deal!

 

On the times where a group of cachers get FTF, the cache owner would simply ask of the cachers in the group, Which one of them actually spotted the cache, and that would be who he assigns FTF to.

 

Your IDEAS?

[jholly]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

[+SgtSue]

All I can see arise from this is more FTF arguments. Can someone claim FTF prior to the publishing of the cache? Can cachers share the FTF? Can the hider's buddy/family member who helped hide the cache claim FTF? Heck can the hider claim the FTF? (if they can claim a find for their own cache why not FTF?) I see no good other than personal "glory" coming from such a statistic. My thought is if you want to know who the FTF was for each cache make a note in one of GSAK's User Data Fields.

[+Rosemark]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

[+Rosemark]

All I can see arise from this is more FTF arguments. Can someone claim FTF prior to the publishing of the cache? Can cachers share the FTF? Can the hider's buddy/family member who helped hide the cache claim FTF? Heck can the hider claim the FTF? (if they can claim a find for their own cache why not FTF?) I see no good other than personal "glory" coming from such a statistic. My thought is if you want to know who the FTF was for each cache make a note in one of GSAK's User Data Fields.

 

All of these questions are solved by allowing the cache owner to assign the FTF, and his say if Final! (EXCEPT) assiging FTF to himself. I do not think a cache owner should be able to claim his own cache as a find, or his own FTF to his own cache...

[+jon.hemlock.Chantal]

Allowing the cache owner to assign the FTF would be a great approach!

[+John in Valley Forge]

But FTF is an unsactioned side game that does not officially exist.

[+SgtSue]

All I can see arise from this is more FTF arguments. Can someone claim FTF prior to the publishing of the cache? Can cachers share the FTF? Can the hider's buddy/family member who helped hide the cache claim FTF? Heck can the hider claim the FTF? (if they can claim a find for their own cache why not FTF?) I see no good other than personal "glory" coming from such a statistic. My thought is if you want to know who the FTF was for each cache make a note in one of GSAK's User Data Fields.

 

All of these questions are solved by allowing the cache owner to assign the FTF, and his say if Final! (EXCEPT) assiging FTF to himself. I do not think a cache owner should be able to claim his own cache as a find, or his own FTF to his own cache...

 

The owner deciding what is and what is not is where the disagreements begin. As I said I see no positive purpose for this. What is the purpose? What does it provide the cacher? How does it enhance the caching experience?

[jholly]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

There is nothing preventing you from maintaining a list on your profile page of your FTF's. It does not require effort on the part of a cache owner nor does it require the use of lackey resource to make it happen. I realize that it requires effort on the part of the FTF hunter, but maybe that will make the game more satisfying because of the extra effort.

[+t4e]

i don't think GS should get involved in the FTF stats, more so since its not really officially recognized and since some people really hate the FTF part of the game....should remain a user maintained section

 

My Geocaching Profile continues to provide its services especially for the features that GS has/will not incorporate into their version, as such you can use the current FTF on there

 

i am still using the site exactly for those features that GS does not cover in their stats

Edited December 27, 2010 by t4e

[+niraD]

Yeah, nothing could go wrong with having the cache owner assign FTF...

 

"One of my FTFs disappeared last night. How do I get it back?"

 

"I got FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because I found it at night and he says the park was closed!"

 

"I shared an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because the other guy's signature is above mine on the log!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me until he verifies the physical log! It's been three days already! Is it more appropriate to post NM or NA?"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else just because he solved the puzzle the 'correct' way!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me because he says I'm hogging all the local FTFs and I should let someone else get an FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to a buddy of his just because he wanted the cache to be his buddy's 200th FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO says he doesn't believe the FTF race is good for the game, so he won't give any FTFs on his caches!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else, just because he followed the request to post a photo. Isn't that an ALR? I don't even have a camera!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, and he won't reply to any of my emails!"

 

I've been spending too much time in these forums...

[+John in Valley Forge]

i don't think GS should get involved in the FTF stats, more so since its not really officially recognized and since some people really hate the FTF part of the game....should remain a user maintained section

 

My Geocaching Profile continues to provide its services especially for the features that GS has/will not incorporate into their version, as such you can use the current FTF on there

 

i am still using the site exactly for those features that GS does not cover in their stats

 

I wonder if MGP will still track FTF stats once it is fully integrated after GS bought MGP.

 

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

As a cache owner, I really don't want to take on an additional obligation for a cache because some like to play the FTF game. As an admitted FTF found, I suspect you live in an area where the FTF game is commonly played and may be making this suggestion based an aspect of the game that is common in your area, but is certainly not a global method of practice. I can't think of a single local geocacher that I would label as a FTF hound. It's just not important in my area, thus I suspect many cache owners would just not award a FTF, and since Groundspeak has never recognized the FTF game as an official part of the game I doubt they would implement your suggesting and doesn't want to get in the middle of a debate between a finder of a cache and a cacher owner if a CO chooses not to award the FTF to anyone.

[+edscott]

I would still like a FTF stat kept on the stats page. I know the biggest obstacle to this is the fact that the First to Find is not always the First to Log on Groundspeak, so the FTF stat could go to the wrong cacher, but I think there is a simple fix to this problem.

 

The Fix: Do not automatically issue a FTF Stat based on who logged it first on Groundspeak. Have the Cache owner assign the FTF after confirming who actually found it. In most cases the posts reveal who was the true FTF, so it should be easy for the Cache Owner to figure out who to assign the FTF to. I know that on the rare occasion where the FTF is disputed the Case Owner may have to check the actual log, but that would be rare, and not that big a deal!

 

On the times where a group of cachers get FTF, the cache owner would simply ask of the cachers in the group, Which one of them actually spotted the cache, and that would be who he assigns FTF to.

 

Your IDEAS?

 

It this ever happens maybe I'll have some idea of how many FTFs I have..

[+Chokecherry]

I would imagine if this was put ont he cache owner to manage it would be incredibly annoying for a cache owner to have to march out to a cache to check the log and verify a FTF especially on a harder terrain cache.

[+Ike 13]

Nope. I hope GS does not do this. Yes I chase FTF's when I can. But I see no way to do this on the programming side other than letting the CO pick the FTF which can (and will) cause issues of its own.

 

I feel I am a responsible CO and when one person FTF's one of my caches I create a graphic that is added to the page to honor them. I just got around to doing that for two caches that have been out over a month. I could see lots of frustrations if it was more official.

 

Those that chase FTF's can continue to track them using other stat programs or bookmark lists.

[+t4e]

i don't think GS should get involved in the FTF stats, more so since its not really officially recognized and since some people really hate the FTF part of the game....should remain a user maintained section

 

My Geocaching Profile continues to provide its services especially for the features that GS has/will not incorporate into their version, as such you can use the current FTF on there

 

i am still using the site exactly for those features that GS does not cover in their stats

 

I wonder if MGP will still track FTF stats once it is fully integrated after GS bought MGP.

 

you don;t need to let MGP track your FTF, i add them in myself

 

and according to the website, yes they will still be around specifically for the stats not integrated by GS

 

The mygeocachingprofile.com website will continue to be available in its current form so cachers can take advantage of any existing sections that haven't yet been incorporated into the main geocaching.com site. We'll also be passing along all of your fantastic development suggestions to the Groundspeak team so that they can continue providing new statistics and maps directly on geocaching.com.

[+addisonbr]

Perhaps the stats tab could allow for people to generically highlight special caches. You enter the waypoint of the cache and a brief description (most amazing hike of my life! hardest puzzle I've ever solved! whatever!) and it includes them in a tab. If FTFs are special to you, include them. If they're not, don't.

[+fizzymagic]

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

[+Scubasonic]

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

 

Boy I agree with Rosemark, I think it is a great idea....and as always when it comes to fizzymagic and FTFs he needs a Chill PIll you enjoy your aspect of the game and we will enjoy ours.

 

Scubasonic

[+Markwell]

I'll agree with Fizzy on this one. Sure - you can enjoy your FTF game, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my enjoyment.

 

I'll not be a cache owner that has to "assign" a FTF. No one will get a "FTF Award" on a cache that I own. I would be against anything that asks me to do this. FTF hounds do head to parks after hours. Yes, they do. One land manager finds someone scaling a fence, or in an area they shouldn't be and finds out that it's a cacher, then caching gets banned in the park. Yea - that's good for everyone right?

 

Sure - have your fun game, but don't take MY fun away from me.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I'll agree with Fizzy on this one. Sure - you can enjoy your FTF game, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my enjoyment.

 

 

I feel the same way about any aspect of geocaching. I'll fully support any other geocacher that chooses to play the game how they wish, up to the point that how they play the game infringes on the enjoyment of how I or any other geocacher chooses to play the game. There are many ways to play the game that have no negative impact on how others play the game, but there are some activities that can have a negative impact. The fact that some find certain ways of playing the game "fun" isn't going to change my mind.

[+addisonbr]

I'll not be a cache owner that has to "assign" a FTF.

Yeah, I don't think that's such a great idea.

 

FTF hounds do head to parks after hours. Yes, they do.

Probably my least favorite aspect of FTF-ing, and I say that as someone who enjoys rushing out for them. Folks scaling fences of parks that are closed are a total drag.

[+Ladybug Kids]

Allowing the cache owner to assign the FTF would be a great approach!

And how would I, the cache owner, assign a FTF to an individual in a group that claims a co-FTF for everyone if I wasn't there to witness who was actually the first to see, and therefore, find, the cache? The OP infers I could chase around members of the group via e-mail, sort out the various stories, then then be judge and jury on the FTF. I don't think that would make me many friends in the caching community and it's creates work for me.

 

In addition to other resources cited, GSAK users can use a macro to parse their logs to create a FTF table and count. As a result, FTF hounds can keep easily track their own FTFs, post them on their profile page (or in a bookmark list to display on each cache for which they were the FTF), and not create additional overhead for Groundspeak or the cache owner.

 

I enjoy being FTF when the opportunity presents itself, but I don't want to get into being a referee/judge for my new caches.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Ladybug Kids

[+John in Valley Forge]

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

 

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

Seems a dichotomy at best. Hypocrisy at worst.

 

Edit: PS, I do not think the CO should have to decide who finds the cache first. If the FTF hounds should figure it out for themselves. Nor should GS have to track it. It is a side game.

Edited December 28, 2010 by John in Valley Forge

[+Don_J]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

I occasionally play the FTF game, and I do keep track pf all of mine in GSAK.

 

There are four major flaws in your ideas which would cause the data to be inaccurate.

 

1. There is no way that I have the time to go back through my 160 hides, determine who was FTF and assign it to them. There are people out there with ten times my hides. Do you expect them to do this.

 

2. I have FTFs on caches where the owner has quit the game. They will never give my FTF credit because they don't participate an longer.

 

3. The inevitable arguments that will occur when one cacher claims to be FTF and the cache owner assigns it to someone else.

 

4. The FTF game has no set rules. In our area, when on the trail and one of us hides a cache, the rest will log finds but not claim FTF. We consider FTF to be the first finder after the cache is published and available to all. Other parts of the country think that this is totally ridiculous, and whoever signed the log first is FTF. Even though it's been debated until several horse have died, no one is really correct because there are no real set of rules.

[+Chokecherry]

One of the other flaws is the fact that some people who are FTF never log online. How would one assign a first to find in that scenario?

 

With all the bickering that happens as it stands now I can't imagine the bickering that would occur with someone wielding any power to anoint a FTF. The tantrums would be epic.

 

While I appreciate that people play this side game and understand some actually take it seriously. It's probably best to track your own FTF statistics. If Groundspeak could find a way to incorporate some sort of list feature to that that would be great where the cachers could identify the caches they feel they were first to find on leaving the cache owner out of having to play mediator.

 

We don't have a rabid FTF crowd here so I can't comment on the damage that is done other than to saw I've seen damage done on difficult to find caches on public property (which saddened me) but I'm not sure if it was the FTF or the 6th to find that did the damage.

[+Don_J]

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

 

Boy I agree with Rosemark, I think it is a great idea....and as always when it comes to fizzymagic and FTFs he needs a Chill PIll you enjoy your aspect of the game and we will enjoy ours.

 

Scubasonic

 

So, how would you react when a cache hider refuses to participate and give you credit for a rightly deserved FTF?

Edited December 28, 2010 by Don_J

[+fizzymagic]

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

 

Um, no.

 

Stating an opinion is not trying to impose a view on you.

 

Now, if I were trying to get FTFs banned, and trying to prevent people from playing their private FTF game, you might have a point. But I am not. I am simply giving my opinion that the FTF game is bad for geocaching and that I do not want to see it become an official part of the game.

 

This is a common fallacy on these forums; people who state an opinion are frequently accused of trying to impose that opinion on others. While there are a few examples of that, in the vast majority of cases nobody is trying to force something on anyone else.

 

When you make the claim that expressing any opinion amounts to an attempt to limit other peoples' enjoyment of the game, you are not only engaging in a logical fallacy, but you are also setting yourself up to have that thrown back at you. Like this:

 

By calling my opinion about FTFs "hypocrisy" you are trying to dictate what I can say, and therefore how I enjoy geocaching.

 

See how that works?

[+Rosemark]

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

 

Um, no.

 

Stating an opinion is not trying to impose a view on you.

 

Now, if I were trying to get FTFs banned, and trying to prevent people from playing their private FTF game, you might have a point. But I am not. I am simply giving my opinion that the FTF game is bad for geocaching and that I do not want to see it become an official part of the game.

 

This is a common fallacy on these forums; people who state an opinion are frequently accused of trying to impose that opinion on others. While there are a few examples of that, in the vast majority of cases nobody is trying to force something on anyone else.

 

When you make the claim that expressing any opinion amounts to an attempt to limit other peoples' enjoyment of the game, you are not only engaging in a logical fallacy, but you are also setting yourself up to have that thrown back at you. Like this:

 

By calling my opinion about FTFs "hypocrisy" you are trying to dictate what I can say, and therefore how I enjoy geocaching.

 

See how that works?

 

I posted this to get peoples opinions. and tho I don't agree with Fuzzy, I am glad he posted his opinion. I for one am for FTF's being made an official part of Groundspeak. I wanted to see if a majority of Cachers agreed with me. It seems based on the posts, that they do not! And thats ok! I got my answer and I will live with it! But it is wrong to say anyone is trying to force anything on anyone just by giving thier opinion! There opinion is what I wanted. If there is more of you who like the idea, and just read the fourm and did not post, than they are the ones who are wrong! so I am only left to say Thanks to Fuzzy for his opinion.

[+FunnyNose]

Yeah, nothing could go wrong with having the cache owner assign FTF...

 

"One of my FTFs disappeared last night. How do I get it back?"

 

"I got FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because I found it at night and he says the park was closed!"

 

"I shared an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because the other guy's signature is above mine on the log!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me until he verifies the physical log! It's been three days already! Is it more appropriate to post NM or NA?"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else just because he solved the puzzle the 'correct' way!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me because he says I'm hogging all the local FTFs and I should let someone else get an FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to a buddy of his just because he wanted the cache to be his buddy's 200th FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO says he doesn't believe the FTF race is good for the game, so he won't give any FTFs on his caches!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else, just because he followed the request to post a photo. Isn't that an ALR? I don't even have a camera!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, and he won't reply to any of my emails!"

 

I've been spending too much time in these forums...

 

+1

 

I hope Goundspeak never gets into the FTF fracas, that would be an administrative nightmare.

[+geodarts]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

This has nothing to do with laziness. I do not and would not award an FTF for any of my caches. I have signed a blank log on new caches around 300 times but have never used the three initials in a log.

[+wimseyguy]

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

 

+1, this was never intended to be a competition and should not become one. You can use the statistics as measuring tools, but they don't make anyone better than someone else. One smiley may equal one find, but not all finds are equal.

 

I'll agree with Fizzy on this one. Sure - you can enjoy your FTF game, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my enjoyment.

 

I'll not be a cache owner that has to "assign" a FTF. No one will get a "FTF Award" on a cache that I own. I would be against anything that asks me to do this. FTF hounds do head to parks after hours. Yes, they do. One land manager finds someone scaling a fence, or in an area they shouldn't be and finds out that it's a cacher, then caching gets banned in the park. Yea - that's good for everyone right?

 

Sure - have your fun game, but don't take MY fun away from me.

 

I too would opt out of assigning the FTF label on my hides. If a significant number of CO's also opted out, wouldn't that render the official stats pretty much worthless?

 

Yeah, nothing could go wrong with having the cache owner assign FTF...

 

"One of my FTFs disappeared last night. How do I get it back?"

 

"I got FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because I found it at night and he says the park was closed!"

 

"I shared an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because the other guy's signature is above mine on the log!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me until he verifies the physical log! It's been three days already! Is it more appropriate to post NM or NA?"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else just because he solved the puzzle the 'correct' way!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me because he says I'm hogging all the local FTFs and I should let someone else get an FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to a buddy of his just because he wanted the cache to be his buddy's 200th FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO says he doesn't believe the FTF race is good for the game, so he won't give any FTFs on his caches!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else, just because he followed the request to post a photo. Isn't that an ALR? I don't even have a camera!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, and he won't reply to any of my emails!"

 

I've been spending too much time in these forums...

 

+1

 

I hope Goundspeak never gets into the FTF fracas, that would be an administrative nightmare.

Or how do you measure a situation where a CO likes to award his FTF's as event door prizes? Yup, attend his event and get the coords for an unpublished listing of his. I'm not a FTF hound, have no idea how many I have and don't care. But if I did participate in that aspect of the game, I think I would prefer that they be legit finds and not passed out like candy treats.

[+briansnat]

If it involves me doing something to assign a FTF, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed FTF hounds. If GS wants to do something with FTF stats, then use a bookmark list kept by the FTF hound and generate the stat from that. Then we can have a competition on who gets the FTF and who fills up their FTF bookmark first.

 

I understand! I have a bit of the Lazy bone in me too! But I believe that Most Cachers that take the time to Place and Maintain Caches are willing to take the time to assign an FTF to there newly placed cache. It is a one time thing per cache, so it's not that much trouble, and Most cache placers are somewhat excited when there new cache is found.

 

I do realize that FTF is not important to all cachers, but it is one of the many aspects of this game that many cachers do like, and a stat would be something that can be done. We should accept that there are many aspects of this game, and we will enjoy the ones we like, and ignore the ones we don't, but we should not be against others from enjoying the other aspects of the game just because we don't. (Proud to be an "FTF hound")

 

This has nothing to do with laziness. I do not and would not award an FTF for any of my caches. I have signed a blank log on new caches around 300 times but have never used the three initials in a log.

 

I agree. If I was "lazy" I wouldn't be taking the time to hide caches. I have no interest in the FTF side game. Like Fizzymagic, I think in some places it's become so competitive that its detrimental to the game. So I'm not interested in facilitating it as a cache owner.

 

If someone wants to keep track of FTFs, he can make a spreadsheet.

[+t4e]

I'll agree with Fizzy on this one. Sure - you can enjoy your FTF game, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my enjoyment.

 

 

please do tell how exactly does the FTF game infringe on your enjoyment?

[+John in Valley Forge]

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

 

Um, no.

 

Stating an opinion is not trying to impose a view on you.

 

Now, if I were trying to get FTFs banned, and trying to prevent people from playing their private FTF game, you might have a point. But I am not. I am simply giving my opinion that the FTF game is bad for geocaching and that I do not want to see it become an official part of the game.

 

This is a common fallacy on these forums; people who state an opinion are frequently accused of trying to impose that opinion on others. While there are a few examples of that, in the vast majority of cases nobody is trying to force something on anyone else.

 

When you make the claim that expressing any opinion amounts to an attempt to limit other peoples' enjoyment of the game, you are not only engaging in a logical fallacy, but you are also setting yourself up to have that thrown back at you. Like this:

 

By calling my opinion about FTFs "hypocrisy" you are trying to dictate what I can say, and therefore how I enjoy geocaching.

 

See how that works?

 

If all you gave was opinion I wouldn't be respnding to you.

Read what you said

FTFs are bad for geocaching. They make something that is intended to be non-competitive into a competition. They lead to obnoxious taunting logs, resource destruction, and angry cachers. It is for good reason that FTF is not considered part of the "official" geocaching game.

 

While you may like the FTF game, please do not impose it on the rest of us by giving it some kind of official imprimatur.

 

You toss out an insult at anyone that like the notion of FTF telling us how horrible they are, but claim that you are not trying to tell us what to do? Then when called on your hypocrisy you just selectively quote yourself and pretend to be an angel. Real Nice.

[+Markwell]

please do tell how exactly does the FTF game infringe on your enjoyment?

As it stands now, it does not. Officially sanctioning FTFs and having people race over locked gates to get FTFs, which causes a land manager to ban caching, would limit my ability to find caches in that location. FTF hounds trampling vegetation would limit my enjoyment. Forcing me to "assign" FTF and get into arguments over who is really the FTF on a cache would squash my enjoyment (I'd stop placing caches).

 

Playing the FTF game as it is now - a sideline game that is not officially sanctioned and not requiring any extra effort on the part of the cache hider (in fact, I can completely ignore it) - is a game for which I have no problems.

[+ChileHead]

The way we have it now is perfect. People can claim whatever FTF count they want by whatever rules they want in their own profile and/or bookmark list.

[+n0k1a]

Ironically, I just logged in to post a log for a cache which was published today...yep, I got FTF on it.

 

I am far from an FTF hound, but I certainly enjoy trying to be first to find a new cache. It is fun for some of us, though some do take it to extremes. I have not experienced any of the cited negative occurrences as a result of such attempts, but I can see how it would be potentially possible among those who take it too seriously.

 

I have actually met a number of local cachers whom I may not have met otherwise as a result of trying for FTFs. It seems that right after a new cache is published would be the most likely time to encounter someone else looking for the same cache. I don't recall ever running into anyone else who was looking for an old cache (other than group outings where I was already with them), and that encompasses roughly 100 times as many caches for me as the newly-published ones.

 

Though I like casual FTF hunting, I have to agree that as things stand now, it is best not to have it become an official stat. Some very valid concerns have been expressed in this thread. One good example which would cause disagreement (OK, torque me off pretty bad, actually) is the idea of forcibly awarding a given FTF to a single cacher. I made the first find on a cache with someone else at one point, and we both regard it as a shared FTF. I would not consider it fair if it were only awarded to one of us.

 

Actually, that brings up an interesting point...what if the 'cacher' to achieve an FTF is actually a group/team/couple account? The very existence of such accounts makes many statistics suspect, at best. If only one member of such an account achieves an FTF (or a find to qualify for a challenge cache, a streak, etc.), is it fair that all members can claim credit for it? If there were ever to be any kind of official 'scoring', I would think that 'one cacher = one account' would be a prerequisite...

[+addisonbr]

I have actually met a number of local cachers whom I may not have met otherwise as a result of trying for FTFs.

There are some negatives about the FTF game, but this is an extremely underrated positive.

[+John in Valley Forge]

I have actually met a number of local cachers whom I may not have met otherwise as a result of trying for FTFs.

There are some negatives about the FTF game, but this is an extremely underrated positive.

 

+1. This has been my experience also.

[+fizzymagic]

You toss out an insult at anyone that like the notion of FTF telling us how horrible they are, but claim that you are not trying to tell us what to do? Then when called on your hypocrisy you just selectively quote yourself and pretend to be an angel. Real Nice.

 

I am sorry what I said upset you so badly, but I don't see any insults. I personally enjoy FTFs and will on occasion go for them. It's a great experience to sign an empty log. It's a great experience to meet new people at a cache site. And I keep track of my personal FTF stats. So any claim that I think everyone who likes anything about FTFs is horrible misrepresents my position.

 

What I do NOT do is write taunting logs for my FTFs (I actually now consciously avoid those letters in my logs), trash the landscape in my quest to be FTF, or go into parks outside of official hours. If you equate doing those things with being an FTF hound, then, yes, I do disapprove of them.

 

I also try not to selectively quote myself; I dislike excessive quoting, so I tend to only quote the parts of posts to which I am responding.

 

Back on subject: My experience has led me to believe that the competition for FTFs has led to negative consequences for geocaching as a whole. I think it is a wonderful stat for people to keep for themselves, but I think making it an official part of the game is a very bad idea.

[+tozainamboku]

The way we have it now is perfect. People can claim whatever FTF count they want by whatever rules they want in their own profile and/or bookmark list.

+1

 

I keep track of my FTFs by checking a field in GSAK. I do this when I am the first to sign the log, or if I was part of a group and we agree that it is a co-FTF, or if I see the names in log before my are all beta finders (as Don_J pointed out the common practice in our area is to recognize the FTF after a cache is published as the FTF.) As a cache owner I have never felt the need to post on my cache page "Congratulations to xxxx for the FTF". If someone wants to claim an FTF on my cache, they can post in the log that they were FTF.

 

Now I can understand that some people like to see statistics of all sorts of things. Right now the Geocaching.com statistics are based on the find logs you enter (and that haven't been deleted by a cache owner). So I look at the statistics page and that's what I see - how many find logs someone has entered. I suppose that you could have a little check in the found log that says "FTF" and people could check it and have the stats count the number of times some made that check. Or use the suggestion (at least for premium members) to create special bookmark list with all your FTFs on it and have the statistic program use that to count your FTFs.

 

Any system that relies on a cache owner to decide who gets an FTF isn't workable for reasons already mentioned by others. Any system that relies on Groundspeak or reviewers to adjudicate FTF disputes is also unworkable. The only workable suggestion is to let people mark what they want to count as an FTF and use that number.

[+Lovejoy and Tinker]

Although FTF is not an officially recognised 'achievement', the 'side game' itself is getting pretty close to being 'sanctioned' by gc.com in their knowledge books:

 

1.8. Instant Notifications - Chasing First to Finds

 

Dreaming of being the first to find a geocache?

If so, the instant notification feature may be helpful to you!

http://www.geocaching.com/notify/

 

This site feature allows you to create custom notifications to send to any email address you choose - even your email-enabled mobile phone. You will be alerted immediately when a new cache is published in your area. We can't promise that you will be first to find (some people just don't sleep) but it will make chasing the goal easier.

 

I suspect the only reason that the FTF is not recorded anywhere on the gc site is only down to the difficulties in identifying the FTFer which have already been discussed in this thread. I also suspect that if there were an easy solution then GS would implement it.

 

Personally I think things work fine as they are, anyone can keep track of their own FTFs using whatever rules work for them in regard to joint FTFs etc, and they can display them on their own stats in their profile.

 

But to say the FTF game is 'unsanctioned' is perhaps not quite correct when Groundspeak themselves make it at clear as they do in the knowledge books that the instant notifications feature is there to facilitate getting a FTF and apparently no other reason.

[+the4dirtydogs]

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

 

Um, no.

 

Stating an opinion is not trying to impose a view on you.

 

Now, if I were trying to get FTFs banned, and trying to prevent people from playing their private FTF game, you might have a point. But I am not. I am simply giving my opinion that the FTF game is bad for geocaching and that I do not want to see it become an official part of the game.

 

This is a common fallacy on these forums; people who state an opinion are frequently accused of trying to impose that opinion on others. While there are a few examples of that, in the vast majority of cases nobody is trying to force something on anyone else.

 

When you make the claim that expressing any opinion amounts to an attempt to limit other peoples' enjoyment of the game, you are not only engaging in a logical fallacy, but you are also setting yourself up to have that thrown back at you. Like this:

 

By calling my opinion about FTFs "hypocrisy" you are trying to dictate what I can say, and therefore how I enjoy geocaching.

 

See how that works?

 

I posted this to get peoples opinions. and tho I don't agree with Fuzzy, I am glad he posted his opinion. I for one am for FTF's being made an official part of Groundspeak. I wanted to see if a majority of Cachers agreed with me. It seems based on the posts, that they do not! And thats ok! I got my answer and I will live with it! But it is wrong to say anyone is trying to force anything on anyone just by giving thier opinion! There opinion is what I wanted. If there is more of you who like the idea, and just read the fourm and did not post, than they are the ones who are wrong! so I am only left to say Thanks to Fuzzy for his opinion.

The forum isn't even close to being the majority. You had about 25 people or so give their opinions so I hope you don't think this is the majority. I like the FTF game and I think the game should be reconized by GS. At least it will give a reason for people to complain more than they already do. We give credit to the FTFers on the cache page with a nice text saying congrats. Others make certificates and ribons. So there are quite a few people that play this game. So what if it's competitive, that's just human nature. I think the FTF game is great aspect of the game. People play for different reasons and remember it's just a game.

Edited December 29, 2010 by the4dirtydogs

[+bflentje]

Yeah, nothing could go wrong with having the cache owner assign FTF...

 

"One of my FTFs disappeared last night. How do I get it back?"

 

"I got FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because I found it at night and he says the park was closed!"

 

"I shared an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, just because the other guy's signature is above mine on the log!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me until he verifies the physical log! It's been three days already! Is it more appropriate to post NM or NA?"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else just because he solved the puzzle the 'correct' way!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me because he says I'm hogging all the local FTFs and I should let someone else get an FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to a buddy of his just because he wanted the cache to be his buddy's 200th FTF!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO says he doesn't believe the FTF race is good for the game, so he won't give any FTFs on his caches!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO gave it to someone else, just because he followed the request to post a photo. Isn't that an ALR? I don't even have a camera!"

 

"I got an FTF, but the CO won't give it to me, and he won't reply to any of my emails!"

 

I've been spending too much time in these forums...

 

Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, DITTO DITTO DITTO.

 

Leave the FTF game the way it is.

[Mr.Yuck]

And yet, by giving your description of how bad FTF'rs are, you are trying to impose your narrow view on me.

 

Um, no.

 

Stating an opinion is not trying to impose a view on you.

 

Now, if I were trying to get FTFs banned, and trying to prevent people from playing their private FTF game, you might have a point. But I am not. I am simply giving my opinion that the FTF game is bad for geocaching and that I do not want to see it become an official part of the game.

 

This is a common fallacy on these forums; people who state an opinion are frequently accused of trying to impose that opinion on others. While there are a few examples of that, in the vast majority of cases nobody is trying to force something on anyone else.

 

When you make the claim that expressing any opinion amounts to an attempt to limit other peoples' enjoyment of the game, you are not only engaging in a logical fallacy, but you are also setting yourself up to have that thrown back at you. Like this:

 

By calling my opinion about FTFs "hypocrisy" you are trying to dictate what I can say, and therefore how I enjoy geocaching.

 

See how that works?

 

I posted this to get peoples opinions. and tho I don't agree with Fuzzy, I am glad he posted his opinion. I for one am for FTF's being made an official part of Groundspeak. I wanted to see if a majority of Cachers agreed with me. It seems based on the posts, that they do not! And thats ok! I got my answer and I will live with it! But it is wrong to say anyone is trying to force anything on anyone just by giving thier opinion! There opinion is what I wanted. If there is more of you who like the idea, and just read the fourm and did not post, than they are the ones who are wrong! so I am only left to say Thanks to Fuzzy for his opinion.

The forum isn't even close to being the majority. You had about 25 people or so give their opinions so I hope you don't think this is the majority. I like the FTF game and I think the game should be reconized by GS. At least it will give a reason for people to complain more than they already do. We give credit to the FTFers on the cache page with a nice text saying congrats. Others make certificates and ribons. So there are quite a few people that play this game. So what if it's competitive, that's just human nature. I think the FTF game is great aspect of the game. People play for different reasons and remember it's just a game.

 

Um, it's the exact opposite as far as the majority. The FTF game is played by a miniscule portion of the overall Geocaching populace. A handful of premium members on a website where the overwhelming majority of players are not premium members. Heck, the same 4 people in my area have gotten all the FTF's since about 2005. And the only one who pays attention to them, and "recognizes" them on cache pages or gives them prizes are newbies, because they see all this "Woohoo, FTF!" nonsense every time a cache is published, and don't realize (for a while) that it's the same 4 people every time, with an occasional newbie trying to join in. This out of tens of thousands of people who have found Geocaches in my region since 2001. Unless someone wants to tell me my region is atypical of any other region in North America.

 

And what's up with "Fuzzy" in one of the quotes above?? I think there's a lot of challenges around that going to have to be renamed.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Mr.Yuck

[+Prime Suspect]

I would still like a FTF stat kept on the stats page. I know the biggest obstacle to this is the fact that the First to Find is not always the First to Log on Groundspeak, so the FTF stat could go to the wrong cacher, but I think there is a simple fix to this problem.

 

The Fix: Do not automatically issue a FTF Stat based on who logged it first on Groundspeak. Have the Cache owner assign the FTF after confirming who actually found it. In most cases the posts reveal who was the true FTF, so it should be easy for the Cache Owner to figure out who to assign the FTF to. I know that on the rare occasion where the FTF is disputed the Case Owner may have to check the actual log, but that would be rare, and not that big a deal!

 

On the times where a group of cachers get FTF, the cache owner would simply ask of the cachers in the group, Which one of them actually spotted the cache, and that would be who he assigns FTF to.

 

Your IDEAS?

No thanks.

[+kpanko]

I would still like a FTF stat kept on the stats page. I know the biggest obstacle to this is the fact that the First to Find is not always the First to Log on Groundspeak, so the FTF stat could go to the wrong cacher, but I think there is a simple fix to this problem.

Yes. Simply create a bookmark list, name it "My FTF caches" and just add yours to it. Done.

 

Then the stats page could be modified to show the number of caches on your personal FTF list.

[Mr.Yuck]

This discussion is all a moot point, really. The facts are:

 

1) Like two weeks ago, Groundspeak announced they had "acquired" a known web-based Geocaching stats program, which had FTF tracking ability.

 

2) Like 10 days ago, Groundspeak bestowed upon us the "Statistics tab", which did not utilize that FTF tracking ability.

 

So it would seem to me that TPTB's line of thinking is along these lines:

 

The way we have it now is perfect. People can claim whatever FTF count they want by whatever rules they want in their own profile and/or bookmark list.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Mr.Yuck