Afraid of change?

[+LukeTrocity]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

[+gpsfun]

I believe each person finds the ways to use the web site and to geocache that make them most comfortable and make the game most enjoyable. When changes are made some effort is required to adapt, and if the experience of the new version is seen positively, many will smile and move along without comment. If the new version is seen in a negative light, there is greater incentive to comment.

 

Fear probably has very little to do with it. The good thing is that there is enough variety in the game that almost everyone can play the way they want to play.

[+sseegars]

Lots of people like things to stay as they are. Next week or next month it will be something different that someone doesn't like. I say if we don't go forward, the game dies. And none of us want that.

[+kpanko]

maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

 

This. Most people don't bother to say anything unless they have something to complain about.

 

I like the updates. But I'm not saying anything about that.

[+Castle Mischief]

I chock it up to general internet crankiness and the propensity for hyperbole and exaggerated expression of otherwise very minor aggravation.

 

Or as it's known in some circles "X is the Worst Thing Ever". See also Snoogan's Tree of Caching Angst.

[+kunarion]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

6. Any time there's a change, someone complains about the complaints, masking it as a "survey".

 

I agree with gpsfun, that it isn't fear that motivates complaints about any of those things. Some of the above are either legitimate complaints, or honest opinions.

Edited December 22, 2010 by kunarion

[+GrateBear]

It does indeed seem that more people these days fear "change". Fortunately, that does not stop those who think about the future from promoting change. After all, how many of us would still like to be riding buckboards when we head out to cache? Some will come around, some will always dislike change. I'm going through that with my new GPSr. The old one I'm so used to, I first thought "did I make a mistake?". But, I know it's the best thing to do, and the new one will soon be as easy to use as the old one.

[+kwcahart]

There are a lot of people that are so disgusted with their daily lives that they go out of their way to find something wrong with anything they can, and complain about everything they can. Then there are what I call "keyboard warriors" that only get brave when they are posting on the internet, same kind of deal. Thankfully there are a lot of people that actually use the "web" to try to learn something, and try to keep in mind this stuff is still just a game. Enjoy!!

[+LukeTrocity]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

6. Any time there's a change, someone complains about the complaints, masking it as a "survey".

 

I agree with gpsfun, that it isn't fear that motivates complaints about any of those things. Some of the above are either legitimate complaints, or honest opinions.

don't get it twisted. I want a debate!

[+J the Goat]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate. Let me preface by saying that the following statements may or may not be my actual opinions, but as the OP wants a debate, I'll be happy to give him/her one.

 

1) Not only are they annoying, but they're becoming a negative aspect in a lot of places. The majority of caches placed without the needed explicit permission are parking lot/guardrail micros and the like.

 

2) Why not have the option to remove them from view? There are those of us who absolutely don't care, why must we have to look at a tab we'll never ever use just because some people do use it? (a stretch, I know)

 

3) Legit complaint again. Making different color schemes might actually make it very difficult for some people to see what they were seeing before. Color contrast issues are different for different people, and grey on white on black can get a bit confusing for some.

 

4) I haven't even looked at it. Here's a guess. GS made a half-hearted effort to appease those who really care about their stats by adding this feature. The biggest complaint/suggestion will be that they didn't take enough time to do it the right way. I don't know, even if I do look at the feature (not my thing at all) I probably won't understand what could have been done differently.

 

5) Smartphone HIDING is the evil part. iphone 4 users swear that their GPS signal is just as accurate as a handheld GPS for hiding caches, but I'm not convinced. This other stuff doesn't really affect how I play the game, but hides with horrible coords do. When it starts to affect other people, it needs to be dealt with.

 

There's the beginning of your debate. Some points make no sense, some are completely legit. I need more coffee....

[+kunarion]

3) Legit complaint again. Making different color schemes might actually make it very difficult for some people to see what they were seeing before. Color contrast issues are different for different people, and grey on white on black can get a bit confusing for some.

But it's not just changes that cause complaints. Most of the problems are chronic issues, which have slow or no response from Groundspeak. It's hard to tell which issues are being addressed, so you see the same questions over and over again.

 

And some of the recent changes are just growing pains. So people ask in astonishment, what is going on? If it's "fear" at all, it's a fear that TPTB have no clue what they're doing, based solely on the evidence. Eventually, the weird colors will be redone to match the site's color scheme (forum software being notoriously resistant to customizing). Do people fear the changes getting fixed?

Edited December 22, 2010 by kunarion

[+uxorious]

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

 

While it is true changes will bring complaints, you need to consider the complaint. Sometimes the problem is not the whole change but some part of it.

 

There are those that would like to remove the souvenirs, but most of the complaints on them are from those who would like to remove one or two souvenirs without giving up on them altogether. I think I would like the feature if I could control it so I only got ones I earned, and could get rid of those I didn't. (What good are they if you get some you didn't earn?)

 

Not everyone is clear in how they express themselves. I don't disagree with your premise that most changes bring a lot of negative reaction. I do feel some of that is not as negative as you think.

[+northernpenguin]

 

5) Smartphone HIDING is the evil part. iphone 4 users swear that their GPS signal is just as accurate as a handheld GPS for hiding caches, but I'm not convinced. This other stuff doesn't really affect how I play the game, but hides with horrible coords do. When it starts to affect other people, it needs to be dealt with.

 

All hides suck when taken with just one, non averaged, reading. At least with today's consumer units. Now, I can get an app to average GPS readings on my iPhone 4, just as I can use my Colorado. Or, I can take multiple readings with my eXplorist. I guarantee you my iPhone 4 gets a better position than my eTrex Legend (not H series) does. I can tell you there's a lot of people still hiding caches with an original eTrex Legend, because they are very inexpensive.

 

Know your equipment, how to use it, and know it's limitations - then use skill to correct for them.

 

I can't wait for the 20 year events where people come out whining about how lousy the coordinates are for those people hiding caches with Garmin 62cs and eXplorist GCs units.

 

---

 

As for the OP:

 

You can't please everyone, and the forums are used mainly by the more vocal, opinionated cachers. Looking just here you'll get a skewed view of the geocaching community. Most geocachers are happy with the recent changes, and they don't feel compelled to run around town brandishing pitchforks and torches to proclaim how happy they are about it.

[+briansnat]

All hides suck when taken with just one, non averaged, reading. At least with today's consumer units.

 

Not to get too far off topic, but as someone with with nearly 300 caches hidden using one, non averaged reading, I disagree. I rarely receive complaints about my coordinates and often get compliments.

 

Regarding the OP. It's not that cachers fear change. It's that not all change is for the better in everybody's eyes. The explosion in micros placed simply for the sake of placing a cache is not an improvement to many geocachers judging from the frequent complaints here. Caches placed with smart phones with coordinates consistently way off is not seen as an improvement for many. New color schemes aren't always improvements (I had to change the new default color scheme in these forums to make them easily readable). Some cachers think that by providing stats, GC.com is emphasizing the competitive aspect of the sport and that is seen as detrimental to it by some cachers.

 

Change can be good, change can be neutral and change can be bad and depending on your POV, what one sees as good change might be a bad change for someone else. It usually has little to do with fear.

Edited December 22, 2010 by briansnat

[+TeamMagicParrot]

All hides suck when taken with just one, non averaged, reading. At least with today's consumer units.

 

Not to get too far off topic, but as someone with with nearly 300 caches hidden using one, non averaged reading, I disagree. I rarely receive complaints about my coordinates and often get compliments.

 

Regarding the OP. It's not that cachers fear change. It's that not all change is for the better in everybody's eyes. The explosion in micros placed simply for the sake of placing a cache is not an improvement to many geocachers judging from the frequent complaints here. Caches placed with smart phones with coordinates consistently way off is not seen as an improvement for many. New color schemes aren't always improvements (I had to change the new default color scheme in these forums to make them easily readable). Some cachers think that by providing stats, GC.com is emphasizing the competitive aspect of the sport and that is seen as detrimental to it by some cachers.

 

Change can be good, change can be neutral and change can be bad and depending on your POV, what one sees as good change might be a bad change for someone else. It usually has little to do with fear.

 

Add me in agreement, my previous GPS did not have an averaging feature, and only one out of my 9 hides was a few feet off. However, an averaging function is always preferred, yet 1 good reading from a GPS, not a smartphone or google maps, may be all you need at times.

[+northernpenguin]

All hides suck when taken with just one, non averaged, reading. At least with today's consumer units.

 

Not to get too far off topic, but as someone with with nearly 300 caches hidden using one, non averaged reading, I disagree. I rarely receive complaints about my coordinates and often get compliments.

 

 

Guess I used the wrong wording there. Should have used "most" or "typically" instead of "all".

 

Averaging takes care of things like standing still and letting the boomerang effect work itself out before hitting mark if your GPS tends to do that sort of thing, or the hider who insists that a Nor'Easter is a great time to take a position reading in a valley floor cedar forest.

 

Important part is knowledge of the unit and how to accurately get a reading. My iPhone beats out my Colorado for accuracy quite often (mind you that could be more that Garmin's latest offerings put less emphasis on position accuracy over bells and whistles and toys). My eXplorist 600 was pretty bang on with the first marked waypoint as long as I was hanging out there for a little while before hitting mark.

 

I'll stop here and not derail the thread anymore (cuz I should know better). Anyone wants to keep chatting about this please PM me.

 

--

 

Back to the OP, well worded response Briansnat!

[AZcachemeister]

I like change...usually.

Change can mean progress, but change for it's own sake isn't necessarily good.

Generally people hope for change of some sort, but when the changes made don't suit their desire(s)people get cranky, vocal and/or upset.

There is a little Rain Man in all of us...

[+johnsingleton1974]

Im just an old fart, who gets crabby at kids who trespass on my lawn. I come to the forums to blow off steam I cant take out one people in real life due to a horrible case of hemorrhoids, and a most painful bunion on my left foot.

Now I cant even read these forums any more. Blast.

 

(intended as a joke, take it personally if you want)

[+NicknPapa]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

 

My opinion is that most people (all of them, not just geocachers) don't "fear" change but they do resist change. Change forces us to get out of our comfort zone and learn new things. However, lack of change causes stagnation and ultimately death. I personally would prefer to change and grow but I will admit that growth is often painful.

[+t4e]

 

don't get it twisted. I want a debate!

 

that's what old age does, makes people averse to change

[GOF and Bacall]

I don't see the problem here. Some of the changes I like, some I don't. I have no problem discussing each and why I feel the way I do. That doesn't make me afraid of change.

[Wallydraigle]

OMG, you guys, I'm afraid of a website!

[+LukeTrocity]

OMG, you guys, I'm afraid of a website!

 

That's very immature. Please refrain from posting things like this while people discuss!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I think Jeremy captured the angst about the recent changes in this Facebook post:

 

Jeremy Irish

Running online forums: Like carving a nice walking stick and offering it to someone, only to be beaten over the head with it

[+TerraViators]

The changes don't bother in and of themselves, but it would be nice to hide certain features, such as your souveniers, etc.

[+nekom]

Yes. Everything is ruined forever.

[+Walts Hunting]

I'm not afraid of change. I collect it and put it in the donation box when I go to the store.

 

I suppose this is an immature post and I will get a rebuke from LukeTrocity but if he expects only a serious discussion on each topic he should probably not use this forum.

[+LukeTrocity]

I'm not afraid of change. I collect it and put it in the donation box when I go to the store.

 

I suppose this is an immature post and I will get a rebuke from LukeTrocity but if he expects only a serious discussion on each topic he should probably not use this forum.

Nah. Other guys comment was corny and didn't make sense. At least yours had some wit.

[+Don_J]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

6. Any time there's a change, someone complains about the complaints, masking it as a "survey".

 

I agree with gpsfun, that it isn't fear that motivates complaints about any of those things. Some of the above are either legitimate complaints, or honest opinions.

 

It's the "Who Moved My Cheese". (Google it).

 

I have no problem with moving my cheese. I do have a problem with the timing. The Holiday Season has always been stressful to me. Having my two major websites totally revamped, just adds to to the stress.

 

I feel that the updates were to much and to fast, and they should not have been done on Christmas week.

 

Merry Christmas.

[+t4e]

The changes don't bother in and of themselves, but it would be nice to hide certain features, such as your souveniers, etc.

 

why?

 

its a separate tab, out of the way, ignore it

[Wallydraigle]

OMG, you guys, I'm afraid of a website!

 

That's very immature. Please refrain from posting things like this while people discuss!

 

It's no more or less ridiculous than the premise behind this topic. If you didn't take yourself so seriously maybe you could have seen that.

[Mr.Yuck]

Do you think as a simple majority that Geocachers are afraid of change? It seems like every time something changes with this game people are generally unhappy with it.

IE:

1. Micros are so annoying

2. These souvenirs are so terrible I can't ignore them, I need to option to actually remove them from my page they are so bad.

3. This website hurts my eyes now with all the colors and changes

4. This stat system they bought is lame

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

Just wondering if you think most people are afraid of change, or maybe its a few really vocal people that are mostly afraid of it?

 

I have no problem at all with the first 5. however, Smartphone caching is indeed the devil, as Adam Sandler's mother would say in The Waterboy.

[+t4e]

 

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

 

did you ever go caching with someone using a smartphone, they get out of the car and go in the totally opposite direction of where the cache actually is, 10 minutes later they still wonder in the wrong area, 20 minutes later they start getting proper direction to the cache

 

(exaggerating a bit on the time for demonstration purposes but the thing doesn;t even come close to the accuracy of a handheld)

Edited December 25, 2010 by t4e

[+jomouse]

change happens

[jd-mitchell]

I don't mind change, as long as it's change I can believe in!

[+popokiiti]

I don't feel that cachers are just complaining. More in the line of constructive criticism. I also find find the forum page/type a bit tiring on the eyes, but I am hoping I'll get accustomed to it. Age is against me there though! I hope we'll find there are a lot of benefits - after all image size has been increased for uploading to logs...but I still intend learning how to resize. I might have to as one cache is still resisting my efforts - drat it!

[+JL_HSTRE]

Coming to geocaching from several gaming hobbies (Warhammer, Magic The Gathering) the "OMG CHANGE? EVERYBODY PANIC!" attitude is something I'm used to seeing every time change happens.

 

As far as the topics brought up: the explosion of micros has created a serious "quality vs quantity" issue. Though admittedly it depends on how much you like random guardrail/LPC caches.

 

The gripes about Souvenirs and Stats seems excessive. But achievements are widespread in games/apps today and as any sports fan can attest (not to mention the popularity of a GSAK stats macro, mycachingprofile.com, and the CacheStats program) there are many people out there who love stats. So even if you don't like them personally it's a pretty justifiable addition to the site.

[+Ambrosia]

...after all image size has been increased for uploading to logs...but I still intend learning how to resize. I might have to as one cache is still resisting my efforts - drat it!

Yeah, I'm still having trouble uploading pics. I don't even feel like logging any of my finds lately if I can't be sure I'll be able to upload pics. I was excited to see that it was listed as a bug fix, but it doesn't seem to be really working?

[+LukeTrocity]

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

 

did you ever go caching with someone using a smartphone, they get out of the car and go in the totally opposite direction of where the cache actually is, 10 minutes later they still wonder in the wrong area, 20 minutes later they start getting proper direction to the cache

 

(exaggerating a bit on the time for demonstration purposes but the thing doesn;t even come close to the accuracy of a handheld)

 

I refute this point and have done tests that prove otherwise. here

 

Should I get free time I would like to try the same tests in a variety of conditions, however since I used both I can say my phone gets me to the gz as well as my gpsr.

 

As for quality vs quantity in micros...yea I see the issue here. I have seen some great micros, but far more boring ones.

Edited December 26, 2010 by LukeTrocity

[Mr.Yuck]

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

 

did you ever go caching with someone using a smartphone, they get out of the car and go in the totally opposite direction of where the cache actually is, 10 minutes later they still wonder in the wrong area, 20 minutes later they start getting proper direction to the cache

 

(exaggerating a bit on the time for demonstration purposes but the thing doesn;t even come close to the accuracy of a handheld)

 

I refute this point and have done tests that prove otherwise. here

 

Should I get free time I would like to try the same tests in a variety of conditions, however since I used both I can say my phone gets me to the gz as well as my gpsr.

 

 

Well, I've already seen adamant "My non-waterproof automotive GPSr with no navigation arrow or pedestrian mode is as good as your handheld unit" guy, so I suppose adamant "My Droid GPSr (if it even technically is a GPSr, and not just triangulating location from cell phone towers) is just as good as your handheld unit" guy was out there. I think Mtn-Man, in Post # 8 of your "refute" thread does a great job of refuting your refute, and points out you tested one of dozens of Droid models, no Iphone or Crackberry models, and provide zero technical details about the sensitivity or selectivity of either unit. And I assume this test was in New Jersey? Test it in SW North Dakota, Nunavut, or Brazil.

 

All irrelevant though really. The problem with new Smartphone users storming into Geocaching like bulls in a china shop isn't the accuracy of their units. The problem with new smartphone users charging into Geocaching like bulls in a china shop is:

 

Sent from my mobile device

Sent from my mobile device

Sent from my mobile device

Sent from my mobile device

Sent from my mobile device

Sent from my mobile device

 

And/Or:

TFTC

TFTC

TFTC

TFTC

TFTC

TFTC

 

And (you'll have to work with me on this one) totally blank logs, as shown below:

 

EDIT: Never mind, It doesn't look like I'm going to get the blank log simulation to work.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Mr.Yuck

[+n0k1a]

 

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

 

did you ever go caching with someone using a smartphone, they get out of the car and go in the totally opposite direction of where the cache actually is, 10 minutes later they still wonder in the wrong area, 20 minutes later they start getting proper direction to the cache

 

(exaggerating a bit on the time for demonstration purposes but the thing doesn;t even come close to the accuracy of a handheld)

I, for one, have not.

 

What I have done is been the someone with a smartphone who, on numerous occasions, got to the cache before the more experienced cacher with the 'real' GPS receiver. Interestingly, this trend began with my #3 find ever...

 

This is a multidimensional issue. As pointed out already in this thread, some of the anti-smartphone bias is related to the quality (or lack thereof) of logs posted by users of said devices. This is a real issue, which is caused by a number of factors, including quality of software as well as experience of users. I am personally less interested in this part of the discussion, as I have never logged a cache with any of my smartphones. I obviously could, but I prefer to wait until I sit down at a desktop or netbook and type in all of my logs for a caching session. I keep running notes on the smartphone in a text file (what caches I found or didn't find, in what order, and with any other interesting facts noted as well).

 

The other major part of this issue is that smartphones vary widely in GPS performance. Every one of my GPS-equipped smartphones is vastly more accurate and sensitive than many 'proper' handheld GPS receivers, period. Incidentally, I have worked extensively with GPS telemetry systems for military and industrial applications (among other aspects of technology), so I'm not just a typical end user saying that. Some more recent dedicated GPS units are on a par with them, but now that I have converged devices with a plethora of other features in addition to GPS capability, I have no intention of downgrading to a more expensive, larger, more bulky unit, which cannot do anything else!

 

Granted, there are also smartphones with poor GPS performance, and even some which only triangulate on cell site signals for positioning, which is obviously not going to work well for geocaching. I do not appreciate the thought of being branded as somehow inferior because I happen to use a smartphone exclusively as my GPS receiver for geocaching, just because someone else with a superficially similar device couldn't get to GZ, or hid a cache with bad coords, or wrote poor logs. Actually, I do not really care, as I know that what I am using works extremely well, so it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

 

Those seeking something about which to complain should focus on the actual problem, rather than the coincidental use of a particular tool to achieve substandard results. It is quite possible to hide a cache with bad coords using a Garmin or Magellan, and it is quite possible to write terrible logs on a desktop PC. Don't put me down because someone (inexperienced or otherwise) achieved poor results while using some other type of smartphone. Maybe work constructively to encourage others to write good logs, regardless of what they use to type them. Maybe help them learn how to recognize if they're obtaining good positioning data, whether they're using a phone or a 'real' GPS unit.

 

Of course, the situation is not helped by the North American smartphone market itself being dominated by substandard manufacturers and OSs...

[Mr.Yuck]

 

5. Smartphone caching is the devil you need <insert GPSR here>

 

 

did you ever go caching with someone using a smartphone, they get out of the car and go in the totally opposite direction of where the cache actually is, 10 minutes later they still wonder in the wrong area, 20 minutes later they start getting proper direction to the cache

 

(exaggerating a bit on the time for demonstration purposes but the thing doesn;t even come close to the accuracy of a handheld)

 

Those seeking something about which to complain should focus on the actual problem, rather than the coincidental use of a particular tool to achieve substandard results. It is quite possible to hide a cache with bad coords using a Garmin or Magellan, and it is quite possible to write terrible logs on a desktop PC. Don't put me down because someone (inexperienced or otherwise) achieved poor results while using some other type of smartphone. Maybe work constructively to encourage others to write good logs, regardless of what they use to type them. Maybe help them learn how to recognize if they're obtaining good positioning data, whether they're using a phone or a 'real' GPS unit.

 

Of course, the situation is not helped by the North American smartphone market itself being dominated by substandard manufacturers and OSs...

 

That was a great post. I'm not going to quote it all, but I read it with great interest. By the way, myself and Luketrocity have taken the smartphone GPS thing to email, not to hijack the thred on one of the 5 points. Actually, I haven't answered him back in detail yet, but I will.

[+M 5]

I like what I consider good change, my problem is that I think that unfortunately geocaching fits better as a niche hobby. Too many geocachers and geocaches is a bad thing for geocachings future in my opinion. I have many conflicting thoughts on the actual reasons of this, but I still think it's much better as a fringe hobby. There are many known problems with geocaching that are amplified with more players. I just don't know a good way to fix it. I definitely think smartphones have sped up the thresh-hold limit. Geocachers have less invested and can dip their collective toes in the geocaching waters a lot easier, and it promotes lots of rookie cachers and 3-monthers. Rookies in anything are more prone to make mistakes and I read somewhere else, where someone on here called the second group "seagulls" they fly in, make a lot of noise, drop their crap everywhere and then leave. Crude, but funny and true.

[+n0k1a]

That was a great post. I'm not going to quote it all, but I read it with great interest. By the way, myself and Luketrocity have taken the smartphone GPS thing to email, not to hijack the thred on one of the 5 points. Actually, I haven't answered him back in detail yet, but I will.

Glad you liked it. I'm interested to know how your discussion progresses. It would be cool to make it a new thread, if there isn't already one covering that topic specifically. There is a lot more I would like to say about it too, but not here.

 

As far as the original overall topic, I believe the same is true here as is often true of online product reviews. The majority (or vast majority) probably won't ever post anything in the forums here, and often those who do will be particularly vocal about any topic about which they feel strongly. It's hard to say whether the silent majority don't mind change (or whatever), or like it, or hate it but don't know how to say so, or hate it but can't be bothered to say so.

 

It seems that some change is an inevitable consequence of the growth which is occurring. There are good and bad sides to this. Indeed, a large influx of new users who don't take the time to learn how things should be done can cause damage, but I have also encountered new users who have become very good cachers in short order. The technophile elitist in me wants to say that there should be a learning curve and some 'obstacles', rather than sugar-coated, dumbed-down, user-friendly instant gratification. I suppose I have some difficulty perceiving things from the point of view of a typical user, considering my technical background. Naturally, GS (and GPS manufacturers, etc.) are trying to run a business, and target as wide an audience as possible. It's impossible to please everyone all the time.

 

The argument about keeping this a fringe hobby (hopefully everyone can agree with that term, rather than game or sport, LOL) and keeping it 'under the radar' so as not to attract too much negative attention is quite valid. On the other hand, if it were to grow significantly larger, perhaps even becoming mainstream, that might pave the way for more widespread acceptance as well. Of course, that could also increase the restrictions placed on it...

 

I don't know if we will ever arrive at an answer, but this is certainly a thought-provoking thread!