+Team kizb Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 The question is, do mint numbers really matter to most? I noticed an interesting trend with the reservations of my UFO Geocoin. Most are reserving one complete set. That leads me to believe that there interested in the set for their collection and not for resale. If that's the case then it appears the total number of each version minted doesn't really matter to 95% of Cachers placing reservations. I could be way off here, but it seems to make since. How do you feel about mint numbers of different versions? Are LEs a thing of the past? Quote Link to comment
+G & C Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I activate nearly all of my geocoins. I release them for various reasons in various places, but I keep a large chunk of them activated and in a book that goes to events with me. I do not collect, per se. So no, LEs don't matter to me. But I usually pick one up when I buy a coin for my collection, because I know somebody else just might care about the LE, and want to trade for it. The rarer the coin the better, that way there's that much less of a chance that someone else will have the coin that I have, that someone wants. Quote Link to comment
+Jackalgirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I prefer to get the LEs, but it does depend on the LE, too. For coins I like, I like to get one of every version I can (if I can afford it). So if a vendor offers all of the LEs in a set, and I like the LEs, I tend towards getting the set. : ) Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 I prefer to get the LEs, but it does depend on the LE, too. For coins I like, I like to get one of every version I can (if I can afford it). So if a vendor offers all of the LEs in a set, and I like the LEs, I tend towards getting the set. : ) So do you care if there are 50 LEs or 200 LEs? Quote Link to comment
+LionsLair Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 just an observation when folks are thumbing through my collection... I've noticed that most folks don't recognize coins according to metal differences, so LE, RE, AE, or whatever 'E' doesn't matter to most if it is only a change of metals regardless of rarity... color changes are noticed more often and are generally asked about if someone has seen a particular coin before and then runs across the same coin in a different color combination... Quote Link to comment
+2LittleCache Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I really dig the rare LE's, like only 20 minted or what have you. Usually I don't make it in time to get those, but when I see one in some ones collection it widens my eyes. If your going to have anything thats collectable it makes it that much more fun to have rarities. Quote Link to comment
+WRITE SHOP ROBERT Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 My taste in coins is more about the design than the quantity of any version. Quote Link to comment
+Droo Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 With the advent of XLEs, XXLEs, XXXLEs and even XXXXLEs it's become somewhat of joke.... to me. Still a part of me is delusional enough to think numbers do matter at some point and I'll go for the LE if it's available and it stands out next to the RE. Following the Forum threads it seems that to some mint numbers matter a lot so I wouldn't write them off just yet. Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 (edited) i hate the whole designation of LE RE etc because it means usually the best metal/enamel combinations are going to be for the LE which, if you can't get the whole set, or get one of the rarer one right away, you are stuck with second best which is the RE. and who wants the metal that is not the prettiest or nicest. forget the second best, make a couple of editions of the very best, make all the same amount and call it good. or at least have reservations for the best available for anyone who wants it. the UFO coin is awesome, but because i didn't buy the whole set, couldn't afford the whole set, i can't get the best combination of metals and because i would like to have at least one of the coins, i "settled" for one of the REs. seems one would sell more based on the design rather the artificially inflated value of an LE. since you were doing reservations it would have been very easy to gauge the interest in the more unusual coin and mint and charge accordingly so that everyone that wanted a two tone could actually have a two-tone instead of "settling" for a single metal if that isn't what they liked the best. i would have happily paid extra for one of the two-tone coins instead of the, in my eyes , less attractive, single metal. if the two-tones had been available, i would have bought two of those, one for me and one as a gift, but since not, i only bought one coin - as a gift. that means after seeing the two-tone i didn't like the single metal enough to want it in my collection, even though it is cool, but i am pretty sure my friend will love it. hope this made sense. lara Edited December 5, 2010 by RedShoesGirl Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 i hate the whole designation of LE RE etc because it means usually the best metal/enamel combinations are going to be for the LE which, if you can't get the whole set, or get one of the rarer one right away, you are stuck with second best which is the RE. and who wants the metal that is not the prettiest or nicest. forget the second best, make a couple of editions of the very best, make all the same amount and call it good. or at least have reservations for the best available for anyone who wants it. the UFO coin is awesome, but because i didn't buy the whole set, couldn't afford the whole set, i can't get the best combination of metals and because i would like to have at least one of the coins, i "settled" for one of the REs. seems one would sell more based on the design rather the artificially inflated value of an LE. since you were doing reservations it would have been very easy to gauge the interest in the more unusual coin and mint and charge accordingly so that everyone that wanted a two tone could actually have a two-tone instead of "settling" for a single metal if that isn't what they liked the best. i would have happily paid extra for one of the two-tone coins instead of the, in my eyes , less attractive, single metal. hope this made sense. lara It makes perfect since. I just wonder how many other people feel the same way as you do. Quote Link to comment
+drneal Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I base my purchasing on color/metal combos that I like, not particuarly LE, XLE, XXLE, megaxxxle with the xxxxle mylar coin flip included at absolutely no extra cost (and that's not all .) There have been some LE's that just happened to be my color/metal choice, so yes, I purchased the LE...and yes I paid more for making that choice, and that was okay with me. ILYK Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 I base my purchasing on color/metal combos that I like, not particuarly LE, XLE, XXLE, megaxxxle with the xxxxle mylar coin flip included at absolutely no extra cost (and that's not all .) There have been some LE's that just happened to be my color/metal choice, so yes, I purchased the LE...and yes I paid more for making that choice, and that was okay with me. ILYK So maybe the color/metal combination's themselves determine which end up being the most desired, not the mint numbers. Seems to make since. Quote Link to comment
+drneal Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I base my purchasing on color/metal combos that I like, not particuarly LE, XLE, XXLE, megaxxxle with the xxxxle mylar coin flip included at absolutely no extra cost (and that's not all .) There have been some LE's that just happened to be my color/metal choice, so yes, I purchased the LE...and yes I paid more for making that choice, and that was okay with me. ILYK So maybe the color/metal combination's themselves determine which end up being the most desired, not the mint numbers. Seems to make since. That's pretty much my thought, but I'm sure there are many collectors that find an LE much more desirable, simply because it's an LE, but, I ask the people that design and manufacture geocoins, will the average geocoin collector pay more for an LE, just because it's an LE, more rare (wasn't that sort of your original question anyway?), even if the color/metal combo probably wouldn't be their first choice? ILYK Quote Link to comment
+ZeroHecksGiven Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I was going to type up a huge long story about how I collect vinyl, etc... But regardless, I care about minting numbers and have passed on coins in the past when the artist won't release minting numbers. I prefer to have a more limited version of a coin for various reasons. So yeah, just adding in my two cents Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I base my purchasing on color/metal combos that I like, not particuarly LE, XLE, XXLE, megaxxxle with the xxxxle mylar coin flip included at absolutely no extra cost (and that's not all .) There have been some LE's that just happened to be my color/metal choice, so yes, I purchased the LE...and yes I paid more for making that choice, and that was okay with me. ILYK So maybe the color/metal combination's themselves determine which end up being the most desired, not the mint numbers. Seems to make since. well yeh, make everything equally available since different people will prefer different things. maybe the two-tone isn't joe's cuppa tea, the antique silver is, so he gets to choose that metal while i, on the other hand, prefer the two-tone. i added more to my thoughts above after you quoted me i believe. i'm with dr neal. buy what you like no matter the rarity. somebody buying for resale down the road may not like that approach though. Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 (edited) if you make the more attractive coin the RE, then the less attractive coin can be the LE and the LE collectors will be happy and the folks that want the prettiest will be happy. everybody be happy dancing. edited because i can't type worth a darn ... Edited December 5, 2010 by RedShoesGirl Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 Thanks for the great options so far. Its almost sounds like some would rather the coin speak for its self as far as which one becomes the most desired. In regards to mint numbers, what if each coin identified the total number minted. Such as 1 of 200 and so on. So no LEs, XLEs, AEs etc, just a total number minted and you would be free to order any number of any finish. A back to basics approach to selling coins. This would seem to ensure Cachers got the version they wanted based on design, not numbers. Quote Link to comment
+drneal Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 if you make the more attractive coin the RE, then the less attractive coin can be the LE and the LE collectors will be happy and the folks that want the prettiest will be happy. everybody be happy dancing. edited because i can't type worth a darn ... I don't dance ILYK Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Thanks for the great options so far. Its almost sounds like some would rather the coin speak for its self as far as which one becomes the most desired. In regards to mint numbers, what if each coin identified the total number minted. Such as 1 of 200 and so on. So no LEs, XLEs, AEs etc, just a total number minted and you would be free to order any number of any finish. A back to basics approach to selling coins. This would seem to ensure Cachers got the version they wanted based on design, not numbers. i like it! does that mean you are going to change the reservations?!!!!! Quote Link to comment
+cache_in_hand Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I personally don't care about how many were minted. If I like the coin and the metal/color combo I'll get more then one to either trade or keep for my collection. It makes no sense to limit the best looking coin you are producing and mass produce the second best. I do understand AE's being different and limited but any more are in my opinion, senseless. Quote Link to comment
+Jackalgirl Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I prefer to get the LEs, but it does depend on the LE, too. For coins I like, I like to get one of every version I can (if I can afford it). So if a vendor offers all of the LEs in a set, and I like the LEs, I tend towards getting the set. : ) So do you care if there are 50 LEs or 200 LEs? Not particularly. I think, of course, that the LE limited to 50 is going to be worth more, in the long run...maybe. It depends on how much people like the coin. Ultimately, if I like the coin, I'll buy it no matter what. Quote Link to comment
+EyeD10T Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I havent been collecting geocoins long, but I have been focused on coins that I like and have not really been paying attention to the E-Rating. I have assumed that the LEs are more sought after due to the fact they are LEs, but I have seen a lot of LEs that I dont like as much as the regular coin. Quote Link to comment
+MustangJoni Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I have disliked the LEs because they tend to be the "better" metal and color combinations. From a business point of view, why in the world would you make the best combination a limited edition? You can mint the REs in unlimited quantities, so why wouldn't you make that the very best combination or combinations? Seems like sales would be better if people didn't feel manipulated into buying a set just to get the one combination that they really like, because it is the LE. Quote Link to comment
+drneal Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Thanks for the great options so far. Its almost sounds like some would rather the coin speak for its self as far as which one becomes the most desired. In regards to mint numbers, what if each coin identified the total number minted. Such as 1 of 200 and so on. So no LEs, XLEs, AEs etc, just a total number minted and you would be free to order any number of any finish. A back to basics approach to selling coins. This would seem to ensure Cachers got the version they wanted based on design, not numbers. I'll play the devil's advocate....lower numbered coins will become the more prized coins...how about just following through with Mustang Joni's suggestion, and make more (not numbered) of the color combos people want (would probably require a pre-sale or reservations, so you have a better idea of quantities of each coin needed...I would expect you can would also see a lot of set cancellations since you would no longer need to buy the set to get the LE color combo. ILYK Quote Link to comment
+Tonyalynnm Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I don't look at # of coins minted, I just get the coin that I like ( typically the black Nickle or Antique Silver) I don't have a lot of extra money to buy coins so I buy what I like not something just because it is rare. I do however have to admit I love the 2 tone version of your UFO coin the best Quote Link to comment
haysonics Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) My ideal system would be : 1 - Hold a presale so that people get a chance to order whatever versions of a coin they like 2 - At the end of the presale announce what number of each version will be made 3 - Do not remint The benefits of this system are : Everyone has the opporunity to get the coins they actually want Every version of a coin is an LE Vendors never suffer from overstock Probably the resaon we dont have this system already is that there have been 2 vendors (who are no longer in business) who abscondered with peoples money and at least one interested party who will forever remind us about it. So, for the moment, we find our market awash with REs that few people actually want and LEs that eveyone wants but few people can actually get because someone has decided that only XXX amount will be produced. Edited December 6, 2010 by haysonics Quote Link to comment
+MustangJoni Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 My ideal system would be : 1 - Hold a presale so that people get a chance to order whatever versions of a coin they like 2 - At the end of the presale announce what number of each version will be made 3 - Do not remint The benefits of this system are : Everyone has the opporunity to get the coins they actually want Every version of a coin is an LE Vendors never suffer from overstock Probably the resaon we dont have this system already is that there have been 2 vendors (who are no longer in business) who abscondered with peoples money and at least one interested party who will forever remind us about it. So, for the moment, we find our market awash with REs that few people actually want and LEs that eveyone wants but few people can actually get because someone has decided that only XXX amount will be produced. I don't think pre-sales will go over real well. Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) My ideal system would be : 1 - Hold a presale so that people get a chance to order whatever versions of a coin they like 2 - At the end of the presale announce what number of each version will be made 3 - Do not remint The benefits of this system are : Everyone has the opporunity to get the coins they actually want Every version of a coin is an LE Vendors never suffer from overstock Probably the resaon we dont have this system already is that there have been 2 vendors (who are no longer in business) who abscondered with peoples money and at least one interested party who will forever remind us about it. So, for the moment, we find our market awash with REs that few people actually want and LEs that eveyone wants but few people can actually get because someone has decided that only XXX amount will be produced. I don't think pre-sales will go over real well. What if the presale is replaced by reservations? Edited December 6, 2010 by Team kizb Quote Link to comment
haysonics Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 My ideal system would be : 1 - Hold a presale so that people get a chance to order whatever versions of a coin they like 2 - At the end of the presale announce what number of each version will be made 3 - Do not remint The benefits of this system are : Everyone has the opporunity to get the coins they actually want Every version of a coin is an LE Vendors never suffer from overstock Probably the resaon we dont have this system already is that there have been 2 vendors (who are no longer in business) who abscondered with peoples money and at least one interested party who will forever remind us about it. So, for the moment, we find our market awash with REs that few people actually want and LEs that eveyone wants but few people can actually get because someone has decided that only XXX amount will be produced. I don't think pre-sales will go over real well. What if the presale is replaced by reservations? The problem with reservations is that way too many people reneg on their order. Pre-sales have been great except for 2 vendors that skipped town. I wouldn't be surprised if we are still hearing about those 2 vendors in a hundred years Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Must have been before my time since I don't know the vendors you speak of. Quote Link to comment
haysonics Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) And before my time as well but that doesn't stop those whom wish to promote their own business from keeping the memory of those bogeymen alive in the forums. Its a less than subtle way of sluring those businesses who have and do successfully conduct presales. Let those folk that constantly bang on about having "goods in the store" offer us C.O.D. Oh no, that's not gonna happen. They want your money before they are going to actually send you anything. You have to trust that they are going to send you their goods So either way, you still hand over money before you see anything. The only difference is that there is a longer wait for your goods following a presale. That's a small disadvantage compared to the benefits for both buyer and seller in the presale system. I have a dream that one day my 40 little children will live in a world without 2nd rate REs. Until then we shall pay exhorbitant amounts on ebay for LEs that we missed out on because we missed someones 3am web sale. I refuse to join their cults and drink their cool aid. They can keep their secret newsletters and funny handshakes. I will not be subjected to sleep deprivation; continually pressing F11 like a some sycophantic geozombie. Let there be LEs for all !!! Edited December 6, 2010 by haysonics Quote Link to comment
GregsonVaux Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) So, for the moment, we find our market awash with REs that few people actually want and LEs that eveyone wants but few people can actually get because someone has decided that only XXX amount will be produced. eBay fascinates me, because it is a wonderful example of market forces and economic principles. I would expect that there have been and will be many doctoral dissertations based on people's behavior there. Anyway, the prices on eBay tell us clearly that people greatly value LEs. The problem is this, people want an LE, but which finish should it be in? No matter which finish you choose, someone will tell you that it is the only good finish and all the others are second best. Edited December 6, 2010 by GregsonVaux Quote Link to comment
+ZeroHecksGiven Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I hate to go back to record collecting, but I probably have 5-10 records right this second that I've already paid for weeks ago and don't expect to see for a few more weeks. You pick and choose who you want to send your money to early, here or there. I'm okay with pre-ordering stuff as long as it's someone reputable. Obviously, always some risk, no matter how nice a person has been or what kind of reputation they have. I just dislike it when an artist will sell LE's for $5 more than the rest. How about the first 50 people who buy the coin, to basically pay for the mint, get the dibs on the LE. Limit one per person and then anyone who wants an LE after that can trade or deal with eBay. Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 I have a dream that one day my 40 little children will live in a world without 2nd rate REs. Until then we shall pay exhorbitant amounts on ebay for LEs that we missed out on because we missed someones 3am web sale. I refuse to join their cults and drink their cool aid. They can keep their secret newsletters and funny handshakes. I will not be subjected to sleep deprivation; continually pressing F11 like a some sycophantic geozombie. Let there be LEs for all !!! What if there were no such thing as an LE? All versions were released as REs. Will people just start calling the coin minted in the smallest number the LE and the coin that was minted in larger numbers since it was the favorite the RE? Points to Ponder Quote Link to comment
+Jackalgirl Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) The thing about LEs is that they are guaranteed not to be reminted (that is, if the maker is following custom). So if, say, I make 50 Gadgetcoins, someone who's a collector knows that they've got a (maybe relatively) rare coin that might be worth something in the future (depending on the coin and its popularity). For collectors interested in collecting limited coins, this could be a big deal: they know, for sure, that the number of coins minted in that plating is not going to change. Of course, any RE/SE that isn't reminted is essentially an LE. For example, my Year of the Tiger / Ox coins are probably not going to be reminted, so congratulations to all owners thereof, you have coins that for all intents and purposes are limited. But again, there's no guarantee that there won't be more in the future. Maybe in 10 years, Mike will mint some more coins to make some complete 12-year cycle sets. To recap: with the "LE" designation, you (the maker) are guaranteeing now that you won't remint that combination no matter what, even if interest in your Gadgetcoin is revived two years down the road and you decide to mint some more. So a collector who is interested in (relatively) rare or limited coins knows now that he or she is investing in a coin that will remain (relatively) rare or limited. In other words, the collector is speculating on the coin's worth in the future. I know some people hate that -- the speculation. Others like it and find it part of the thrill of collecting. I'm one of the latter. I don't necessarily mind if someone charges extra for the LE. Why not? Because they're guaranteeing that there won't be any more, ever. Ever ever. So I'm paying more now on the bet that it'll be worth more in the future (coin futures!)*. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. *If I like the plating/color combo. Many's the time I've totally passed on an LE or XLE or whatever because I just don't like the plating. I have to say, though, that I do love the vendors who provide a discount on the complete set and provide them on a first-come-first-served basis (though I normally miss out on these because I'm on the other side of the planet from most vendors). I love you guys. Love you love you love you. Mwah! Now, having said all of that: I think that a vendor should be free to make LEs/XLEs/whatever. I do like haysonics' idea, too, as a possible model of something a vendor who's interested in meeting interest in the middle might try out. The vendor could refer to all of the coins as SE (special edition: limited in quantity but with the option to remint later) and then convert one or two platings to LE later. But I don't mind at all someone specifying a plating (or two) as LE beforehand, so that I (as a collector) know for sure what's going to happen, and I'd hate to see all vendors stop doing that. Because, again, I kind of like the speculation. : ) Edited for a little more clarity. Edited December 6, 2010 by Jackalgirl Quote Link to comment
+MustangJoni Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 And before my time as well but that doesn't stop those whom wish to promote their own business from keeping the memory of those bogeymen alive in the forums. Its a less than subtle way of sluring those businesses who have and do successfully conduct presales. Let those folk that constantly bang on about having "goods in the store" offer us C.O.D. Oh no, that's not gonna happen. They want your money before they are going to actually send you anything. You have to trust that they are going to send you their goods So either way, you still hand over money before you see anything. The only difference is that there is a longer wait for your goods following a presale. That's a small disadvantage compared to the benefits for both buyer and seller in the presale system. I have a dream that one day my 40 little children will live in a world without 2nd rate REs. Until then we shall pay exhorbitant amounts on ebay for LEs that we missed out on because we missed someones 3am web sale. I refuse to join their cults and drink their cool aid. They can keep their secret newsletters and funny handshakes. I will not be subjected to sleep deprivation; continually pressing F11 like a some sycophantic geozombie. Let there be LEs for all !!! I don't have a business to promote. But I do have several friends who lost between $60 - $100 on these rouge companies. One of the two companies we are talking about could have easily burned me since I regularly bought from them. I deemed them "reputable". The other company, while I didn't buy from them, they had regularly done pre-sales successfully. Right now we have a company that I have regularly bought from for years, looking like they are about to go under. I believe they offer pre-sales or reservations on their coins. We have had several complaints about them lately. If this was before your time, then you weren't here to hear the horror stories about how people lost their hard earned money to people who just skipped out and shut off all communication. You say that pre-sales are a "small disadvantage" to buyers because we have to wait longer for our coins. That isn't the only disadvantage....it also bumps up against the 45 days that paypal allows to file a complaint to get a refund of your money. I had always liked pre-sales over reservations until these things happened. My coin budget is too small to risk losing money to pay someone elses bills. I have my own to pay. I think if Groundspeak would re-vamp their "Approved Vendor" program, that could help accommodate pre-sales again. Right now, all you have to do to get on the list is make coins. I think they should make sure the companies or the people running them are credit worthy. Someone with good credit is less likely to get in personal financial problems, and if they do, they probably have the means to get out of it. While someone with a poor credit history, probably doesn't even have a credit card, and if they have a personal emergency, pre-sale funds might be their only option. Quote Link to comment
+manu luq Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 In my opinion, there are different types of collectors, each has their priorities and personal tastes. However, what unites them all is the object, the collection itself. In this case geocoins Any collection acquires more value (I do not mean financial) if has the more rare pieces. In my case, I recently started my collection of geocoins because they have a special attraction since discovered that, buy the geocoins that I like (when I can), but if called RE, LE, AE, I do not care, but sometimes overlaps. I don't collect all the editions of a coin (too much expensive), however, I'll start to acquire limited editions (if they like me). Because they are more easy to change with some geocoins that I want to have, but are already Sold Out, or they are HTF, or VHTF, or have exorbitant prices, and so no change if not for a piece of similar value as a rarity, not economic. Although this is often the same (sometimes speculation, we know). We all know that there is always speculation about any human activity. I will not go into their game, I hope so!. I like art, beauty and the message contained in these little gems. I will shortly put on sale a few pieces of my first design, but I'm not going to speculate with them, at least within the acceptable limits, as a means to create another design, and to trade with others. Trade, exchange, good, speculation only within certain limits. Quote Link to comment
haysonics Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) A quick note to add that I sympathise with those that have been burned by those two vendors. I can understand those whom got ripped off (or friends thereof) having negative feelings about presales. My comments were aimed at certain vendor/s that are slamming presales. Those that took others money could just as easily have claimed they had coins in their stores when they didn't. The slamming of presales is a underhanded way for some vendors (that don't do presales) to attack other vendors (that do presales). The collateral damage is that its keeps IMO the best system (presales) from you (collectors). Edited December 6, 2010 by haysonics Quote Link to comment
+Jackalgirl Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I'm not sure that pre-sales is the best system. I mean, if you (the vendor) don't have the money up front to pay for the making of a coin, then it makes sense to do a pre-sale, but IMO it is very hazardous. If there is any problem, you now have all these separate contributions of money that you have to keep track of (and possibly refund). I myself would never, ever, ever want to have to deal with that kind of a situation. So I think that reservations are awesome. I understand that some vendors don't like reservations because it's a hassle to keep track of who reserves what. On the other hand, I think that it's less stressful, because with a pre-sale you not only have to keep track of who ordered what, but how much they paid. Plus, with a reservation, you can say "if there isn't enough interest, I won't place the order" and there's no money to worry about refunding. I do understand that there are people who will place reservations and not pay, and I do understand that some vendors don't want to have extra stock that may not sell. I've never, however, heard that this was such an incredible problem that, say, a vendor ordered 200 coins and got stuck with, say, 100 of them. And I personally think that as long as you make sure that your "total number reservations required to place the order" number is high enough to have a little buffer against this, and you keep track (and never take reservations from those persons again), that this is the best way to do business. Yeah, you have to pay up front with your own money, but that's what regular businesses generally do. If a person isn't interested in investing in his/her own business, and isn't interested in doing enough coins to justify actually running, say, reservations (or otherwise doesn't have enough money to do the project), then I highly recommend that that person work with established vendors to have the coins made using the "paid for your art via Artist Editions" system. Sell the AEs until you've banked enough to pay for your project. Then do reservations. If you do pre-sales, then you just simply have to be absolutely disciplined about it. You have to keep track of all of that money, because until the customers' coins are in their hands, it's their money. You can't keep it in the same account you use to pay bills, or that you use to buy coins or supplies or whatnot (or if you do, you have to be utterly and ruthlessly meticulous). And you must, must, must, must be incredibly disciplined about regularly communicating with customers and being rapidly responsive to them. If someone complains and wants a refund, you have to be able to refund them immediately. Having said all that, I am not actually in principle against pre-sales. I just strongly caution people about them because, again, you are taking people's money with a long delay in getting them their product, and this is dangerous. I'll participate in pre-sales with some vendors who have a solid reputation for following through, and with no qualms whatsoever. I worry about people totally new to geocoins, though, trying to run a pre-sale as the first thing they do. It's just not wise. I know this is pretty off-topic, but I wanted to get my bit in about the relative merits of, say, pre-sales vs reservations. And I think that the nice thing about reservations is that it is a valuable way to gauge desire, and could be pretty useful in determining how rare a coin's going to be. But I still think that, as a collector, I'd prefer that someone who's interested in producing an LE for my speculative little heart do so beforehand, so I know when reserving that I'm reserving an LE, rather than make a decision based on response as to what the LE is going to be. Quote Link to comment
GregsonVaux Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) I agree with Jakalgirl. I thought about all of this VERY carefully and decided that reservations are the way to go. In business, the #1 duty is keeping the customer happy. I have participated in presales, because I like the coin design, but I would rather avoid them and I suspect that others would too. The customer will naturally ask why the seller can’t collect together the $1000 to $2000 needed to mint a coin. Being able to collect this money is a sign that someone is committed to a project. If a person collects several thousand dollars and places it in a bank account, they may be tempted to “borrow” the money to pay credit card or utility bills. Even if they have the best intentions to pay it back, they may be unable to in a timely manner and the customer has to wait for weeks or months while the vendor resolves cash flow issues. However, if the coins have already been bought, there is no temptation to “borrow” the money and the customer is exposed to much less risk. I choose reservations because I want my customers to feel happy and secure. I think I know which company people are talking about. There is a company that makes fantastic coins and uses presales. I have bought many coins from them and have always been very pleased. However, they are beginning to do erratic things, which makes me suspect they are having liquidity issues. I will continue to buy from them, but I realize that at some point I may lose some money. Edited December 6, 2010 by GregsonVaux Quote Link to comment
+anne.and.eli Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) Main reason I do reservations instead of pre-sales - Stuff happens. The cat coins which I did reservations for in June took longer than expected to get produced. Once produced, they had mint errors. (one was me missing something on the blueprint, another was the mint not applying the enamel correctly) and they had to be redone. There were a series of holidays and slow turn-arounds and I have just NOW, in December, fulfilled peoples orders. From June. Don't get me wrong, it was a stressful process. But if I had been sitting on people's money that entire time, I would have been ILL with stress. But what people choose to do for their own sales is their own business. There are some people I will pay for before I get the coin, but some I won't. I have never personally been ripped off, but if it's someone who hasn't produced a number of coins, I would of course be wary because it takes quite some diligence to get from design to production, and I think it's fair to wait for someone to prove they can get through the process a few times before giving them my money up front. As for LEs, REs, etc, I've enjoyed reading people's opinions and will likely change the way I do things in the future based on some of the feedback here. Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic Team kizb. Making it so I can only get a particular coin if I get a set kinda annoys me, but I understand the reasoning behind it. I used to buy the sets to get that one coin, but I've been doing that less and less these days unless it's a coin I REALLY want. The only time I like "sets" is when I get a discount for buying them AND I want a few of the coins in the set. I didn't buy a UFO coin because I just wanted the black nickel/gold one and don't want to spend the money to buy an entire set to get one. Edited December 6, 2010 by anne.and.eli Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 The question is, do mint numbers really matter to most? I noticed an interesting trend with the reservations of my UFO Geocoin. Most are reserving one complete set. That leads me to believe that there interested in the set for their collection and not for resale. If that's the case then it appears the total number of each version minted doesn't really matter to 95% of Cachers placing reservations. I could be way off here, but it seems to make since. How do you feel about mint numbers of different versions? Are LEs a thing of the past? The short answer is "Yes". The longer answer is a bit more complicated. First, we need to talk about what an LE is. When I first asked, ('05?) I was told that an LE had to be less than 100 coins total and was a one-shot deal. Later, when coins were being made in mass quantity I'd heard that changed to less than 10% of the total made, but many argued that it still meant less than 100 and a one-shot deal. The funny thing is that so many people get mad about the LE being "better". In my experience the LE was usually the second choice metal that the manufacturer wasn't willing to commit big money to and because smaller runs cost more money they sold for more sometimes. I've received AEs in the past which I was told later were "better" than the regularly available REs, LEs, XLEs, etc., etc. I've laughed on more than one occassion because there were usually at least 3 people making the decision on the AE and it was pretty universally agreed that any AE I received would have to be the LEAST likely to be sold or coveted as we didn't want to upset anyone and after all we were trying to sell the things! It doesn't seem to matter though. Someone, somewhere will decide that limited run is "better" and that they've been held out on. So in the end, whether we personally like it or dislike it, the fact is the numbers do matter. Just not to all of us Quote Link to comment
+AtwellFamily Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Are both of these Limited Edition (LE)? 1. Only so many are minted. 2. Only minted one time. Quote Link to comment
GregsonVaux Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Are both of these Limited Edition (LE)? 1. Only so many are minted. 2. Only minted one time. Tell me this, who is the authority to decide? Groundspeak may be the closest thing to an authority, but I don't think it is even them. The phrase limited edition just means that a predetermined number will be made, or some other limit to the quantity. There is one collectable company that makes ceramic items and they limit the number of firing days. In short, I don't think that anyone can say the limit to an LE and we just have to trust the designer to stick to their self-imposed numerical limit. Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 ... I will not be subjected to sleep deprivation; continually pressing F11 like a some sycophantic geozombie. Let there be LEs for all !!! hear hear! Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 if you make the more attractive coin the RE, then the less attractive coin can be the LE and the LE collectors will be happy and the folks that want the prettiest will be happy. everybody be happy dancing. edited because i can't type worth a darn ... I don't dance ILYK you don't have to be able to "dance" to be happy dancing. try it, trust me, it will make you feel good. rsg Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 8, 2010 Author Share Posted December 8, 2010 The question is, do mint numbers really matter to most? I noticed an interesting trend with the reservations of my UFO Geocoin. Most are reserving one complete set. That leads me to believe that there interested in the set for their collection and not for resale. If that's the case then it appears the total number of each version minted doesn't really matter to 95% of Cachers placing reservations. I could be way off here, but it seems to make since. How do you feel about mint numbers of different versions? Are LEs a thing of the past? The short answer is "Yes". The longer answer is a bit more complicated. First, we need to talk about what an LE is. When I first asked, ('05?) I was told that an LE had to be less than 100 coins total and was a one-shot deal. Later, when coins were being made in mass quantity I'd heard that changed to less than 10% of the total made, but many argued that it still meant less than 100 and a one-shot deal. The funny thing is that so many people get mad about the LE being "better". In my experience the LE was usually the second choice metal that the manufacturer wasn't willing to commit big money to and because smaller runs cost more money they sold for more sometimes. I've received AEs in the past which I was told later were "better" than the regularly available REs, LEs, XLEs, etc., etc. I've laughed on more than one occassion because there were usually at least 3 people making the decision on the AE and it was pretty universally agreed that any AE I received would have to be the LEAST likely to be sold or coveted as we didn't want to upset anyone and after all we were trying to sell the things! It doesn't seem to matter though. Someone, somewhere will decide that limited run is "better" and that they've been held out on. So in the end, whether we personally like it or dislike it, the fact is the numbers do matter. Just not to all of us So if I were to mint 4 versions of a coin with a limit of 100 coins per versions does that make them all LEs? Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 ... So if I were to mint 4 versions of a coin with a limit of 100 coins per versions does that make them all LEs? i dunno, but look at your total numbers. 400 coins. that is a LOT of coins, can you reasonably expect to sell all 400? rsg Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 8, 2010 Author Share Posted December 8, 2010 Are both of these Limited Edition (LE)? 1. Only so many are minted. 2. Only minted one time. From what I understand a one time mint is one thing that could make a coin an LE. As far as the numbers, that's were things tend to get pretty gray. Maybe what we need is a Geocoin Minting Standard (G.M.S.) which would be written by the Geocoin Association of Standardization (G.A.S) Quote Link to comment
+Team kizb Posted December 8, 2010 Author Share Posted December 8, 2010 (edited) ... So if I were to mint 4 versions of a coin with a limit of 100 coins per versions does that make them all LEs? i dunno, but look at your total numbers. 400 coins. that is a LOT of coins, can you reasonably expect to sell all 400? rsg I used those numbers as an example. From what others are saying if you mint over 100 of any one version it can't be called an LE. So if you mint 400 coins in four different versions with only 100 of each version and say you'll never re-mint those versions, then there all LEs! Edited December 8, 2010 by Team kizb Quote Link to comment
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