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Challenge Caches


tozainamboku

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Just an idea. I'd probably be a little more interested in doing the challenges people set up if they didn't require me to find a less-than-stellar cache in Toronto or whatever to complete them. We have a great challenge in Ottawa that's been administered on someone's private website for years, and finishing that challenge together is how my soon-to-be-husband and I got to know each other.

 

You do realize there are challenges setup outside the Toronto area, right? Though I can see one being irritated when they perform a whole bunch of tasks to find a leaky 35mm film canister steps from a highway. CanadianZombie has been filling in the Kingston area quite nicely.

 

There is also nothing wrong with setting up challenges in different regions without having to get Groundspeak to officially bestow a Souvi for it and manage it. Ontario is a big place. If you drove the same distance from Ottawa to Toronto in New England along I-95 you'd likely cross 4 states (each with their own Fizzy Challenge).

 

The cache at the end is a nice way to end a hunt, and the regional challenges helps build a community in a way, as the locals (that are interested in the challenge) compare notes and progress with each other, then celebrate as each cacher crosses the finish line. Well, that's been my experience anyway with the challenges that I've followed/attempted this year.

 

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The problem I have with dropping Challenge Caches for Souvi's is that we're restricted to Groundspeaks's definition of a challenge there. There will be one way to log a fizzy. There will be one way to log a Delorme challenge. You'll prolly be 10 years trying to get a Back Roads Ontario Mapbook challenge setup, because Ontario is not a part of the United States (municipality in California excepted). Groundspeak's not really good at rest-of-the-world initiatives.

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...but so far, no challange cache. There is one I would like to work on, but based on the amount of time I have to cache, it would take 5 years. Not sure I can keep my interest that long.

 

We completed the Washington and Oregon DeLorme challenges in about 5 years each though some qualifying pages were older than that. Never lost interest in exploring these two states end to end.

 

We are in our 7th year of the Northern California DC and should be done with it in another year.

 

Tons of fun and loads of adventure and the Challenge Cache is the motivation that got us to do all that exploration.

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as a person who has done nearly 50 challenges, I definitely think they have their place.

 

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

 

 

I've accomplished what you have described with my traditional cache. :)Eisen-Faust

 

 

I don't care for "Challenge" caches myself. I do like to find regular challenge caches.

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as a person who has done nearly 50 challenges, I definitely think they have their place.

 

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

 

 

I've accomplished what you have described with my traditional cache. :DEisen-Faust

 

 

I don't care for "Challenge" caches myself. I do like to find regular challenge caches.

 

"W 3401.3km from your home location" :)

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I enjoy challenges that encourage me to explore further afield, attempt things I might otherwise skip, and keep track of those finds in a different sort of listing. It's added another level of FUN to the way I am caching.

 

I really want to complete the NC Delorme, County and History Challenges. Exploring all the corners of my adopted home state, and focusing on the older caches still in existence have added a fun wrinkle to my caching adventures.

The A2Z Challenge made me take a look back at my finds to get 26 examples for the alphabet. That was a fun stroll down 8 years of memory caching lane.

Finding 100 in a day was a car load of fun with some good geopals.

Calculating 100 stars of D/T ratings was another fun day with a carload.

When I took a look at the calendar feature on a stats website and realized I only had 19 white spaces of 366 for that challenge it made me smile. I posted a note with those dates behind this computer screen, and have x'd out four of them so far. I look forward to finding caches on the remaining 15 dates, and then taking a road trip to another part of the state to find that challenge.

At some point I will target a few specific caches that will fill in my blank spaces on the fizzy grid too. Some of those will force me out of my comfort zone, especially the terrain ratings. But I see that as a good thing.

 

I Do Not Like challenges that restrict my choices of activity and tell me how many caches I can find in a certain day. Or which order I must find some caches in. I don't think those types should be published.

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I am still new to the game, but thus far I have really enjoyed the aspect of Challenge Caches. I currently have two challenge cached published myself. I think it adds another aspect to the game. I have found myself in some pretty interesting locations as a result of tracking down several odd combinations. Admittedly, the concept is not for everybody. But luckily Groundspeak added that lovely “Ignore” feature. What I will say is that I have paired up with several cachers that I otherwise would never have met as a result of challenge caching. That and I enjoy it…. So I win.

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You do realize there are challenges setup outside the Toronto area, right? Though I can see one being irritated when they perform a whole bunch of tasks to find a leaky 35mm film canister steps from a highway. CanadianZombie has been filling in the Kingston area quite nicely.

 

There is also nothing wrong with setting up challenges in different regions without having to get Groundspeak to officially bestow a Souvi for it and manage it. Ontario is a big place. If you drove the same distance from Ottawa to Toronto in New England along I-95 you'd likely cross 4 states (each with their own Fizzy Challenge).

 

The cache at the end is a nice way to end a hunt, and the regional challenges helps build a community in a way, as the locals (that are interested in the challenge) compare notes and progress with each other, then celebrate as each cacher crosses the finish line. Well, that's been my experience anyway with the challenges that I've followed/attempted this year.

 

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The problem I have with dropping Challenge Caches for Souvi's is that we're restricted to Groundspeaks's definition of a challenge there. There will be one way to log a fizzy. There will be one way to log a Delorme challenge. You'll prolly be 10 years trying to get a Back Roads Ontario Mapbook challenge setup, because Ontario is not a part of the United States (municipality in California excepted). Groundspeak's not really good at rest-of-the-world initiatives.

 

I wouldn't want to see Groundpseak solely responsible for creating and administering challenges - exactly for the kind of reason you've brought up - which is why I've made some concrete suggestions against that elsewhere in this thread. Who knows if we'll ever have provincial souvenirs, right? I think challenges - whether they're actual caches or not - should still be created and owned by geocachers.

 

Making a trip anywhere - even just the two hours to Kingston - seems like a bit of a nuisance if it's just to cap off a challenge. The point of the challenge is the challenge, right? Why does there need to be a cache at the end of it? I love to travel and cache, but I wouldn't do it to find a challenge cache. I think it would be nice to see the challenges on my profile in some way other than just another find on a nondescript puzzle cache. I can always put things on my profile myself when I'm proud of something, which I do, but it would be nice to see Groundspeak address challenge caches in a better way. They are becoming quite popular - if it's really important to keep them as actual caches, maybe it is time to create a new icon, and set up some well-defined standards.

 

I've seen some negative effects of challenge caches in my caching community, like cache owners getting hounded because they update the terrain rating on their cache, and some pretty bad cache placements by sock puppets meant to fulfill some alphabetical order challenge.

 

I'll throw in a token whine about cache saturation, because I live in a very cache-dense area and I already know of one challenge cache here that is a bit of a nuisance because it's so rarely found and is taking up a pretty prime spot.

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as a person who has done nearly 50 challenges, I definitely think they have their place.

 

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

 

 

I've accomplished what you have described with my traditional cache. :)Eisen-Faust

 

 

I don't care for "Challenge" caches myself. I do like to find regular challenge caches.

I love the last log you got on that.

 

I'm thinking of putting out the idiots* challenge: You need to find one 4.5 terrain cache on the hottest day of the year and then find another 4.5 terrain cache during a snow storm.

 

* note to moderator: This word does not refer anyone who may have posted in the past or may post in the future that they did a hike in extreme weather. Nor is it meant as an assessment of the intelligence of anyone who might do this challenge. It is simply my opinion that there is no point in taking unnecessary risks when looking for caches that require extreme effort even in the best of conditions. While these make good logs, it doesn't make good sense to encourage this behavior.

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I wouldn't want to see Groundpseak solely responsible for creating and administering challenges - exactly for the kind of reason you've brought up - which is why I've made some concrete suggestions against that elsewhere in this thread. Who knows if we'll ever have provincial souvenirs, right? I think challenges - whether they're actual caches or not - should still be created and owned by geocachers.

 

Making a trip anywhere - even just the two hours to Kingston - seems like a bit of a nuisance if it's just to cap off a challenge. The point of the challenge is the challenge, right? Why does there need to be a cache at the end of it? I love to travel and cache, but I wouldn't do it to find a challenge cache. I think it would be nice to see the challenges on my profile in some way other than just another find on a nondescript puzzle cache. I can always put things on my profile myself when I'm proud of something, which I do, but it would be nice to see Groundspeak address challenge caches in a better way. They are becoming quite popular - if it's really important to keep them as actual caches, maybe it is time to create a new icon, and set up some well-defined standards.

 

I've seen some negative effects of challenge caches in my caching community, like cache owners getting hounded because they update the terrain rating on their cache, and some pretty bad cache placements by sock puppets meant to fulfill some alphabetical order challenge.

 

I'll throw in a token whine about cache saturation, because I live in a very cache-dense area and I already know of one challenge cache here that is a bit of a nuisance because it's so rarely found and is taking up a pretty prime spot.

 

Well, the two hour trip is relative. For one of the fizzys I logged around Toronto, I had to drive out to Ottawa. Yup, that was a silly thing to do - drive 5 hours each way for a smiley - but we turned that into an epic trip with multiple 4x4 caches, and a web cam to boot. The Ottawa cache was a catalyst to an adventure day (even if my wife thinks I'm nuts).

 

The double fizzy I logged yesterday is a 1.5h drive from my home. Didn't make a special trip for it but fortunately I got posted out that way for a service call and opportunity logged it.

 

The negativity about changing cache ratings and other angst is alive and well here too, mainly a few troublemakers on the griping and a couple troublesome cache owners who are deliberately changing ratings just to mess with the challenge. That's unfortunate, and could easily be solved if Groundspeak added the D/T of the cache, when you logged it in the log. But I file that under meh. There will always be people who just want to ruin other's fun no matter how it's structured. Changing a cache rating for a souvi based challenge will also cause that souvi to suddenly disappear when that one 3.5/5 you logged is changed to a 4/5.

 

I have had far more positive effects from the challenge caches I've aimed for than I've had negatives. I also respect that not everyone wants a cache at the end. The COG achievement badges are one way to do this, you just grab the code and add the icon to your profile yourself.

 

Another reason I support regional challenge caches, is it allows multiple people to be a host for a challenge type. We can actually meet the host of a local challenge cache at an event, shake their hand and share stories. If a challenge type was defined once on the site and owned by a cacher - ie "81 Fizzy" gets owned by Kealia. Well I can meet the challenge and, well, I have no plans/budget to fly out to California to swap stories with him. This would also encourage even more ridiculous challenge types as people strive to be one of the few that can own a challenge souvi/icon type.

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I'm thinking of putting out the idiots* challenge: You need to find one 4.5 terrain cache on the hottest day of the year and then find another 4.5 terrain cache during a snow storm.

 

Well, the Ontario reviewers have an easy solution for that. You get an email that asks:

 

Have you done this, or can you prove a significant number of geocachers have done this?

 

The challenge cache owners around here have to eat their own dog food.

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i don't care for most challenge caches, there are only a few that seem appealing to me

afaic they're not affecting my caching in any way and they can continue to exist

 

the only thing that is annoying is the "i'm better than you" attitude of those that chose to complete them

 

I have never, ever got that sort of attitude from any cacher. Ever.

 

Why don't we stay on topic.

 

that's your experience, and i didn't say everyone all over the world has the same attitude

 

what exactly is offtopic in my comment? is my name "offtopic" now or "anything you say its offtopic"?

 

getting somewhat tired of the "stay on topic" stuff

 

we're discussing all aspects of challenge caches

 

 

Even the challenges I think are ridiculous seem to be worth doing for some people and they will tell me that they had fun doing it. I don't think they have an "I'm better than you" attitude when I say I'm not interested in doing it or that I'll log the challenge if someday I happen to meet the requirement but I'm not going out of my way to do it.

 

i have no doubt about that, otherwise they wouldn't do it

its all a matter of preference and i don't think anyone should have to defend their likes and dislikes

 

 

I'm thinking of putting out the idiots* challenge: You need to find one 4.5 terrain cache on the hottest day of the year and then find another 4.5 terrain cache during a snow storm.

 

 

bring it on, sounds like normal caching during summer and winter in Ontario

Edited by t4e
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I think challenges would be better served by souvenirs, or a similar sort of profile award system. I think we can all agree that what makes a challenge worthwhile is the challenge itself, and not the cache at the end of it. Challenge caches are limiting because the cacher has to be local to the actual cache in order to complete it. An award system would let the challenge owners open them up to a wider audience.

Nothing stops someone from listing a challenge cache in their own area with the same rules as one elsewhere. I know this has already happened in Ontario and Quebec which have a Fizzy challenge modeled after one in the US.

 

Having a global list of challenges will just turn into a cluttered mess. And who decides when I've met the challenge? I would hate to spend all the time working on a challenge just to find out that someone in California who listed it doesn't log onto the site anymore.

 

Have you completed any challenge caches? You seem to want to speak for all challenge hunters in saying that the final cache doesn't matter. To a many of us it does.

 

Why does a challenge cache bother people so much? I'd guess it's the radius slaves that have the biggest issues with them.

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I think challenges would be better served by souvenirs, or a similar sort of profile award system. I think we can all agree that what makes a challenge worthwhile is the challenge itself, and not the cache at the end of it. Challenge caches are limiting because the cacher has to be local to the actual cache in order to complete it. An award system would let the challenge owners open them up to a wider audience.

Nothing stops someone from listing a challenge cache in their own area with the same rules as one elsewhere. I know this has already happened in Ontario and Quebec which have a Fizzy challenge modeled after one in the US.

 

Having a global list of challenges will just turn into a cluttered mess. And who decides when I've met the challenge? I would hate to spend all the time working on a challenge just to find out that someone in California who listed it doesn't log onto the site anymore.

 

Have you completed any challenge caches? You seem to want to speak for all challenge hunters in saying that the final cache doesn't matter. To a many of us it does.

 

Why does a challenge cache bother people so much? I'd guess it's the radius slaves that have the biggest issues with them.

 

And who decides when I've met the challenge?

 

So do you think the gc.com should offer the reward for the challenge accomplishment?

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The real reward is the journey, the accomplishment. It isn't that one more smiley or silly icon at the end. Be happy in the knowledge that you accomplished a goal. What you got for doing it just isn't important. This is geocaching, not retirement planning.

Finding the final cache IS part of the journey. It's part of the goal. If you ran a marathon and didn't cross the finish line, would you be happy with yourself? I wouldn't. I'd be out there next year trying again to finish it.

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Making a trip anywhere - even just the two hours to Kingston - seems like a bit of a nuisance if it's just to cap off a challenge.

Then don't go for the final. Who's forcing you? If you just want to make it a personal challenge, go ahead an do so. Post a note on the cache page too. Pretty much everyone will still congratulate you on your accomplishment.

 

And by the off chance you end up in Kingston for whatever reason (business, visiting someone, etc), you'd have a chance to find the cache too.

 

The point of the challenge is the challenge, right? Why does there need to be a cache at the end of it?

As I mentioned before, it's like a finish line in a marathon. A lot of people like to "cross the finish line" when doing a challenging task, whether it's geocaching or something else. It's fine if you don't understand the concept, each person is different.

 

I love to travel and cache, but I wouldn't do it to find a challenge cache. I think it would be nice to see the challenges on my profile in some way other than just another find on a nondescript puzzle cache. I can always put things on my profile myself when I'm proud of something, which I do, but it would be nice to see Groundspeak address challenge caches in a better way. They are becoming quite popular - if it's really important to keep them as actual caches, maybe it is time to create a new icon, and set up some well-defined standards.

A different icon would be nice. So would a log type for "Challenge Completed" instead of just a note. That way they could appear in the profile for those who are too far away or won't be in the area for a while. Maybe allow the CO to upload an icon for their own challenge caches like you can do with a background image.

 

I'd be worried about the "well-defined standards" bit. We don't want all the challenges to be minor variations on a theme. So far the "have you completed it or has someone else completed it" test seems to be working just find.

 

I've seen some negative effects of challenge caches in my caching community, like cache owners getting hounded because they update the terrain rating on their cache, and some pretty bad cache placements by sock puppets meant to fulfill some alphabetical order challenge.

The rating/size/etc thing is a site limitation. It's not historically recording changes to those things on the cache page. Groundspeak can add that in if it becomes a serious issue.

 

The "cheater" issues won't go away. It's just human nature.

 

I'll throw in a token whine about cache saturation, because I live in a very cache-dense area and I already know of one challenge cache here that is a bit of a nuisance because it's so rarely found and is taking up a pretty prime spot.

Sane could be said about puzzle caches and multis. Would you be happy if someone called one of your caches crappy and told you to archive it because they wanted the location?

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And who decides when I've met the challenge?

So do you think the gc.com should offer the reward for the challenge accomplishment?

No. Because they won't have a human doing it. It would be some automatic thing like souvenirs. That would fall into the minor variations of the same challenge I mentioned before.

 

I have a GSAK macro that figures out if you've qualified for some of the challenges in Ontario. It currently can't handle challenges with certain task that can't be easily determined programatically. For example one square on a challenge is "You've run into another cacher while hunting a geocache". How would gc.com know you've done that?

 

I think having a local cacher "in charge" is the best way. The fact that there's a physical cache protects people from MIA owners. It can get archived if the CO goes AWOL.

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Sane could be said about puzzle caches and multis. Would you be happy if someone called one of your caches crappy and told you to archive it because they wanted the location?

 

Where did I use the word "crappy?" I appreciate that this seems to touch a nerve with you, but you're being disingenuous and needlessly antagonistic. If you read more carefully, you'll see that what I'm advocating is a replacement for challenge caches that captures the good things about them while minimizing some of the more glaring problems with them.

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Finding the final cache IS part of the journey. It's part of the goal. If you ran a marathon and didn't cross the finish line, would you be happy with yourself? I wouldn't. I'd be out there next year trying again to finish it.

 

The final cache is more like finishing the marathon, and then running another 200km to get your participant's ribbon. I can live without the ribbon.

 

But hey, if challenge caches float your boat, that's great, but let's dispense with the ineffective similes, k?

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And who decides when I've met the challenge?

So do you think the gc.com should offer the reward for the challenge accomplishment?

No. Because they won't have a human doing it. It would be some automatic thing like souvenirs. That would fall into the minor variations of the same challenge I mentioned before.

 

I have a GSAK macro that figures out if you've qualified for some of the challenges in Ontario. It currently can't handle challenges with certain task that can't be easily determined programatically. For example one square on a challenge is "You've run into another cacher while hunting a geocache". How would gc.com know you've done that?

 

I think having a local cacher "in charge" is the best way. The fact that there's a physical cache protects people from MIA owners. It can get archived if the CO goes AWOL.

 

I agree. I'm just not sure I'm in tune with the whole challenge concept. The incentive to hit all 99 counties in Iowa is a fun idea, just not sure if I need another cache or an icon to say I did.

 

I need to think about this a bit more.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Where did I use the word "crappy?"

"that is a bit of a nuisance because it's so rarely found and is taking up a pretty prime spot."

 

Huh? Usually when people speak of a cache that way they think it's crappy. My mistake.

 

I appreciate that this seems to touch a nerve with you, but you're being disingenuous and needlessly antagonistic.

The only thing that touches a nerve with me is other people trying to change an aspect of the game that they don't participate in. Disingenuous? No. Just speaking what's on my mind. Needlessly antagonistic? In these forums? :laughing:

 

If you read more carefully, you'll see that what I'm advocating is a replacement for challenge caches that captures the good things about them while minimizing some of the more glaring problems with them.

I know what you're advocating. While there are problems, the cache at the end is not one of them. In fact it's what sets challenges apart from souvenirs.

 

I do agree the other problems you mentioned are completely valid.

Edited by Avernar
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The final cache is more like finishing the marathon, and then running another 200km to get your participant's ribbon. I can live without the ribbon.

No, the smiley is the ribbon. The final cache is the finish line.

 

But hey, if challenge caches float your boat, that's great, but let's dispense with the ineffective similes, k?

Hey, if puzzles caches float your boat, that's great, but let's dispense with the ineffective similes, k?

 

Then we also don't need them for multis. And traditionals too. I know that would make some happy if we got rid of the smile/find count system entirely.

 

But seriously, I think the smiley is just record keeping. That's it. And why do you call them ineffective? They seem to be a huge motivational factor for many people, challenge related or otherwise.

 

If you want a challenge like game to play that doesn't involve finding a final, great. And if Groundspeak wants to add some kind of system to support that, even better. But don't try to spoil it for the rest of us who enjoy challenges the way they are. The two systems can exist side by side.

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I have enjoyed completing a few challenges since I began geocaching. However, and some of you may be experiencing the same, I find that after I complete the challenge (and puzzle caches), I no longer have an interest in finding the physical cache. I suppose I would find it if I was near, but I haven't found one that I've qualifed for, yet. I also have found only a few of the many puzzle caches that I've completed. Apathy, I suppose.

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I agree. I'm just not sure I'm in tune with the whole challenge concept. The incentive to hit all 99 counties in Iowa is a fun idea, just not sure if I need another cache or an icon to say I did.

Other people don't need a cache or icon either. Some keep it to themselves. Others post county maps on their profiles. Other like it when it's a challenge cache. That's my point. Each person can do it their own way. I just get defensive when one group wants to stop the other group from doing it their way.

 

I just qualified for a challenge called 81 Proof (you can read about it in the Canada forum). I haven't signed into the log yet. I've actually been at the cache when Northernpenguin completed it but refused to do the "write a note" method. On that challenge, the CO actually offers to go out with you to find it. It's kind of like a ceremony.

 

There's also plans to have a "reunion" get together of all the people who who completed the challenge. I plan on being there to swap stories of the adventures while completing the challenge. And some say this is all worthless. That doing the challenge and getting some fancy pixels on your screen is enough. I don't think so.

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I have enjoyed completing a few challenges since I began geocaching. However, and some of you may be experiencing the same, I find that after I complete the challenge (and puzzle caches), I no longer have an interest in finding the physical cache. I suppose I would find it if I was near, but I haven't found one that I've qualifed for, yet. I also have found only a few of the many puzzle caches that I've completed. Apathy, I suppose.

It helps a lot when other people you know have completed the challenge. It gives you that extra incentive to go and find it.

 

Back to my marathon example. If you were running it alone and were too tired to run that final 50m, you'd probably give up. If you had your friends there cheering you on you'd probably push that little bit harder to finish.

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Hey, if puzzles caches float your boat, that's great, but let's dispense with the ineffective similes, k?

 

Then we also don't need them for multis. And traditionals too. I know that would make some happy if we got rid of the smile/find count system entirely.

 

But seriously, I think the smiley is just record keeping. That's it. And why do you call them ineffective? They seem to be a huge motivational factor for many people, challenge related or otherwise.

 

If you want a challenge like game to play that doesn't involve finding a final, great. And if Groundspeak wants to add some kind of system to support that, even better. But don't try to spoil it for the rest of us who enjoy challenges the way they are. The two systems can exist side by side.

 

Where did I use a simile with regard to a puzzle cache? Do you know what a simile is?

 

I say the final cache is like icing on a cake! Cake is still good without icing, right?

 

No, the final cache is like hanging up the phone. If you don't hang it up, the phone just stays off the hook until it starts beeping. You must hang up the phone!

 

Do you honestly fail to see how your comparison with a marathon doesn't work? You can stomp your feet and huff that the cache is the finish line, but... it's not a race. It's a challenge cache. There is no finish line.

 

It's best to talk about the challenge caches in real terms instead of bickering about insupportable comparisons.

 

The current challenge cache system (or lack thereof) doesn't work as well as it might, for several reasons. It's difficult for people to find challenges in amongst all the other caches out there, challenges can't be "completed" unless people are local to (or travel to) the final cache location, and once completed, challenges just show up as another find among the puzzle category. None of these are terribly serious issues, but since challenge caches are rising in popularity, it might be a good idea for Groundspeak to look into addressing them more formally.

 

As for trying to "spoil" things, you're assuming some sort of antagonism where none is intended and overreacting to that, or you're trying to justify the level of antagonism that you're displaying by accusing others of trying to "spoil" the game. Either way, it's completely unnecessary. Nobody wants to "spoil" anything.

 

*Edited to add: I just realized that you probably mistook the word "simile" to mean "smiley," which is just sad, but explains a lot.

Edited by narcissa
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The real reward is the journey, the accomplishment. It isn't that one more smiley or silly icon at the end. Be happy in the knowledge that you accomplished a goal. What you got for doing it just isn't important. This is geocaching, not retirement planning.

Finding the final cache IS part of the journey. It's part of the goal. If you ran a marathon and didn't cross the finish line, would you be happy with yourself? I wouldn't. I'd be out there next year trying again to finish it.

It's more like taking a victory lap. I can see where getting a bonus cache to look for after you complete a challenge could be an incentive to complete the challenge. But I don't see where it would be part of the challenge itself.

 

What is strange is that under the current rules the final coordinates for the challenge cache are posted; so anyone can go find the cache whether they have completed the challenge or not. The only difference is that they don't get the smiley face. I've gone and found a few challenge caches already. I posted notes because that's all I'm allowed to do. Then I added the cache to my Ignore list so it won't show up in my PQs any more. If there was no cache to find for completing a challenge, I wouldn't have these caches I can find but can't cross off my list. To someone who doesn't want to do the challenge but who likes to find caches just because one is there (perhaps that what you mean by "radius slave"), the Found It log has been perverted into a challenge souvenir instead of a record of which caches they have found. This is essentially the same complaint that was used against ALRs. I believe, however, that the reason ALRs were banned was because of reviewer complaints. So as long at the reviewers are comfortable with the "demonstrating either that you have met the challenge yourself, or that a substantial number of other geocachers would be able to do so" rule, I don't expect challenge caches to go away.

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No, it's like Chris Pronger stealing the puck after someone else achieves a milestone :rolleyes:

 

:laughing:

 

No, it's like Patrick Kane skating down the ice after scoring the winning goal and nobody sees it.

 

Wait, this isn't about marathons anymore.

 

:laughing:

 

Not unless you're this guy

 

jason-smith.jpg

 

Wait, so when you don't find the challenge cache, it's like not getting stitches after you've been slashed in the face? Gotcha.

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No, it's like Chris Pronger stealing the puck after someone else achieves a milestone :rolleyes:

 

:rolleyes:

 

No, it's like Patrick Kane skating down the ice after scoring the winning goal and nobody sees it.

 

Wait, this isn't about marathons anymore.

 

:laughing:

 

Not unless you're this guy

 

jason-smith.jpg

 

Wait, so when you don't find the challenge cache, it's like not getting stitches after you've been slashed in the face? Gotcha.

 

Exactly. :laughing:

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Just wanted to throw my .02 in here:

 

I like challenge caches, and I think that they have a great place in this game. The one thing I will say is that I take the challenge more seriously when the person who issues it (places the challenge cache) has achieved it. I have a couple of challenge caches that I'd like to place, but not until I've met the challenge myself.

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Where did I use a simile with regard to a puzzle cache? Do you know what a simile is?

That's what I get for reading the forums when I should be in bed...

 

I say the final cache is like icing on a cake! Cake is still good without icing, right?

No. It's a warm edible sponge. People are different. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Some like finding the final cache, others don't care. What's so hard about that to understand?

 

No, the final cache is like hanging up the phone. If you don't hang it up, the phone just stays off the hook until it starts beeping. You must hang up the phone!

These analogies aren't getting us anywhere. You think that the final is worthless so all your analogies reflect that. I think the opposite.

 

Do you honestly fail to see how your comparison with a marathon doesn't work? You can stomp your feet and huff that the cache is the finish line, but... it's not a race. It's a challenge cache. There is no finish line.

It is you who fail to see how my analogy works. To some people the finish line is important. To the ones that it's not, well they wouldn't run the marathon in the first place. Fits perfectly.

 

What's going on here is that some people are trying to get rid of the finish line and have everyone just get a badge when they've run the requisite distance. To the people who like marathons, that wouldn't be the same.

 

The current challenge cache system (or lack thereof) doesn't work as well as it might, for several reasons. It's difficult for people to find challenges in amongst all the other caches out there,

Filter on any puzzle caches that have the word Challenge in the title. Drop the small amount of false positives. A separate icon or attribute would be nice however.

 

challenges can't be "completed" unless people are local to (or travel to) the final cache location,

Nobody is forcing you to start a challenge that far away. If you do then you know ahead of time it's only a personal challenge. You can post a note on the cache page that you've qualified if you're not obsessed with getting a +1 in your stats. Or, ask a friend to put out one with the same rules locally.

 

and once completed, challenges just show up as another find among the puzzle category.

Another cache icon would be nice. I agree with you there.

 

As for trying to "spoil" things, you're assuming some sort of antagonism where none is intended and overreacting to that, or you're trying to justify the level of antagonism that you're displaying by accusing others of trying to "spoil" the game. Either way, it's completely unnecessary. Nobody wants to "spoil" anything.

Then why of all the talk of "replacing" challenge caches with something else? I'm all for a global challenge system whatever form that will take. But I'd like to see the existing challenge system left in place. It could even be a part of the global one. You get an icon somewhere for qualifying and a find as well if you actually find the related cache.

 

Kind of like Wherigos. You can mark the cartriges on the Wherigo site as complete. It doesn't mean you have to log the cache. Something similar could be set up.

 

*Edited to add: I just realized that you probably mistook the word "simile" to mean "smiley," which is just sad, but explains a lot.

Yup. Not sad, just a small font and lack of sleep. I really should be getting to bed... :laughing:

Edited by Avernar
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To some people the finish line is important. To the ones that it's not, well they wouldn't run the marathon in the first place.
When local cachers talk about completing the Fizzy Challenge, or the Jasmer Challenge, or the DeLorme Challenge, or any other challenge, they generally don't talk about finding the challenge cache. They talk about the last cache they found for the challenge itself: the remote cache with a rare difficulty-terrain combination, one of the last surviving caches hidden in a particular month almost 10 years ago, the lonely cache in a remote corner of the state, whatever.

 

That's the finish line.

 

They talk about finding the challenge cache too, but they talk about it as a celebration of competing the challenge. I think the "victory lap" or "awards banquet" analogies work very well.

 

Maybe things are different in your area. Maybe the cachers in your area consider finding the challenge cache itself to be the completion of the challenge. But that isn't what I've observed.

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To some people the finish line is important. To the ones that it's not, well they wouldn't run the marathon in the first place.
When local cachers talk about completing the Fizzy Challenge, or the Jasmer Challenge, or the DeLorme Challenge, or any other challenge, they generally don't talk about finding the challenge cache. They talk about the last cache they found for the challenge itself: the remote cache with a rare difficulty-terrain combination, one of the last surviving caches hidden in a particular month almost 10 years ago, the lonely cache in a remote corner of the state, whatever.

 

That's the finish line.

 

With the Fizzy Challenge, that is probably true. But that's not a particular cache. That's a concept all on its own. The DeLorme Challenge, or the County Challenge are specific to one cache. I do not even remember which County was the last for me. (Of course, since we were First and Second to find on that one might make a difference.) Nor do I remember which DeLorme page was the last. It was finding the cache itself that mattered. Even more so on 'Log these particular 26 caches.' Obviously, your mileage varies.

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The real reward is the journey, the accomplishment. It isn't that one more smiley or silly icon at the end. Be happy in the knowledge that you accomplished a goal. What you got for doing it just isn't important. This is geocaching, not retirement planning.

Finding the final cache IS part of the journey. It's part of the goal. If you ran a marathon and didn't cross the finish line, would you be happy with yourself? I wouldn't. I'd be out there next year trying again to finish it.

 

a better analogy would be that you cross the finish line but not in the top 3 for a medal

it doesn't make it any lesser of an achievement and personally, i would be perfectly happy with myself

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a better analogy would be that you cross the finish line but not in the top 3 for a medal

it doesn't make it any lesser of an achievement and personally, i would be perfectly happy with myself

 

For most marathon runners finishing in the top 3 is icing (and not even remotely accomplishable). Most of them are just happy to have survived that 30 mile run, and "I completed the Toronto Marathon" is an accomplishment in itself, even if you came in 4500th place.

 

It kinda sucks though to run 30 miles by yourself, so it's nice that we have a community around most of the challenge caches.

 

Replacing owner enforced challenge caches with automated souvis would be similar to accepting GPS tracklogs in place of actually running the marathon. I could "run" the Toronto Marathon with a few editing keystrokes in MapSource, and get my badge much easier.

 

Edit: So um, yeah. What you said :laughing:

Edited by northernpenguin
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a better analogy would be that you cross the finish line but not in the top 3 for a medal

it doesn't make it any lesser of an achievement and personally, i would be perfectly happy with myself

So much for staying away from analogies. That one works for my argument too. You cross the finish (find the final) but not in the top 3 (first, second, and third to find).

 

But I still agree with you, I'd be perfectly happy with myself for just qualifying for the challenge. But I still want that that sense of "completeness" by going to find the final.

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Just an idea. I'd probably be a little more interested in doing the challenges people set up if they didn't require me to find a less-than-stellar cache in Toronto or whatever to complete them. We have a great challenge in Ottawa that's been administered on someone's private website for years, and finishing that challenge together is how my soon-to-be-husband and I got to know each other.

 

And of your total finds today, how many of those are already less than stellar? For me, the challenge cache is just another journey. You either choose to take that journey or you don't.

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The point is that the original simile and the larger analogy with a marathon fails because a challenge cache is not analogous to a marathon. What people consider the "finish line" obviously varies from one person to the next. Your staunch insistence that the final cache is comparable to a finish line doesn't make it so. Your perception is valid, but it is only yours.

 

Speaking of perception, you're on the attack because a type of geocache you enjoy is theoretically threatened here. I get that. But I think if you step back a bit you'll see that the discussion here is struggling toward some sort of consensus about these popular, but flawed caches. "Leave them as they are" is a valid point. Claiming that others are intentionally trying to spoil things for you is an irrational and excessive reaction to the discussion.

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The point is that the original simile and the larger analogy with a marathon fails because a challenge cache is not analogous to a marathon. What people consider the "finish line" obviously varies from one person to the next. Your staunch insistence that the final cache is comparable to a finish line doesn't make it so. Your perception is valid, but it is only yours.

And your insistence that it's NOT the finish line doesn't make it untrue. You need to take your own advice - it's only your perception.

 

Speaking of perception, you're on the attack because a type of geocache you enjoy is theoretically threatened here. I get that. But I think if you step back a bit you'll see that the discussion here is struggling toward some sort of consensus about these popular, but flawed caches. "Leave them as they are" is a valid point. Claiming that others are intentionally trying to spoil things for you is an irrational and excessive reaction to the discussion.

And you are on the attack because why? The only thing I can see is you see a challenge cache as "that is a bit of a nuisance because it's so rarely found and is taking up a pretty prime spot." That's so similar to the people that complain about "lame" parking lot cache blocking a "better" hide nearby. That CO got there first, so the spot is "his" (until he archives the cache).

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