Challenge Caches

[+tozainamboku]

As a reminder, the topic of the thread is what to do if a challenge cache is missing. Please take the legitimate existence of challenge caches as a given when responding. Thanks for keeping on topic!

 

Since the other topic is about what to do when a a challenge cache is missing, I thought I'd reply to narcissa and make some of my own points about challenge caches in a new thread.

 

 

ALR's and Challenge Caches are not the same. Don't let some of the replies in this thread confuse the issue or questions asked in the OP.

 

Fulfilling a challenge is an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR). Groundspeak inexplicably excludes this sort of ALR from the ALR guideline, but it's still an ALR.

One of the definitions of ALRs (to distinguish them from tree climbing caches or puzzle caches) was that the the additional logging requirement was for something you had to do after finding the cache in order to log the find. Usually it was something you needed to as part of logging your find online (post a picture, write a story, etc.) The original challenges caches (DeLorme challenge, 50 States, etc.) were definitely not ALRs. You needed to do the challenge in order to get the coordinates before you could even look for the cache. Now, I don't know if the owner of one of these cache would let you log it if you went with a friend who had the coordinates because they met the challenge or not; but this issue didn't seem to come up much because people understood that you were supposed to meet the challenge before you found the cache.

 

The issue was that every challenge cache needed Groundspeak permission to get around the guideline against having to e-mail the cache owner for coordinates. During the brief period when ALRs were recognized and had to be listed as mystery/unknown caches, the reviewers found they could approve most challenges as ALR cache by simply requiring the cache to have the actual coordinates listed. Now there was no problem with e-mailing the cache owner as the cache owner would instead simply delete your log if you hadn't met the challenge. The concept was that you still had to meet the challenge before you found the cache, but that began to change as cache owners allowed you to find the cache and post an note, then post the find later when you had met the challenge.

 

I believe this bluring of the line between ALRs and challenges led to both the abuse of some ALRs as well as, IMO, the abuse of challenges; with some challenges being so specific as to only appeal to a small number of cachers. Some challenges seem to be nothing more than "what barely reasonable geocaching accomplishment are you willing to do just to get a smiley?", rather than "here's something that is challenging but still fun for most people." The knowlegde books present some guidelines that are supposed to be used by the reviewers to keep unreasonable challenges from being published. But more and more I'm seeing challenges published that I would have thought would be precluded by these guidelines.

 

I've recently began using the ignore list to ignore challenges placed close to my home that I have no intent of ever doing. Recently, nearly every new challenge that I get a notification for goes on the list.

 

The issue in the other thread shows another weakness in challege caches. People will complete a challenge only to find the challenge cache missing or even archived. I'd much prefer the new souvenir feature be used for challenges instead of caches. Then you don't have travel hundreds of miles to be disappointed when you don't find the cache. You would simply get a souvenir that says you met the challenge. And cachers that aren't interested in challenges won't have a bunch caches on their ignore list because they can't ever log them as found.

[+M 5]

Nice history. I just do the challenges that appeal to me and don't do the challenges that don't. Not to big of an issue in my book. I would be fine with souvenirs, but don't think that challenge caches are a big issue. There may be a few areas around the country where they clutter things up, but not too many. Seems to be a reoccuring theme that things get taken too far. Virtuals, ALR's, Some think challenge caches, Some think PnG's or powertrials. Earthcaches probably got saved from it with their process. I'm not sure the history on locationless, reverse and webcam caches. I guess it's just human nature to take things too far.

Edited November 29, 2010 by M 5

[+Gamaliel]

Challenges give me something to do, new places to go, ideas for where to go caching. Sometimes I don't even bother finding the cache once I complete a challenge - I think I'm about a year overdue in finding two local-ish challenge caches.

 

People seem to like them. Some don't, but I don't see why this dislike requires prohibition. Most every cache type is abused in some fashion according to somebody. So?

[GOF and Bacall]

What's the matter Toz, challenge caches leave a bad taste in your mouth? Some people enjoy that flavor.

 

 

 

[+BlueDeuce]

The issue in the other thread shows another weakness in challenge caches. People will complete a challenge only to find the challenge cache missing or even archived. I'd much prefer the new souvenir feature be used for challenges instead of caches. Then you don't have travel hundreds of miles to be disappointed when you don't find the cache. You would simply get a souvenir that says you met the challenge. And cachers that aren't interested in challenges won't have a bunch caches on their ignore list because they can't ever log them as found.

 

I don't know, I've only speculated about attempting a challenge cache. They seem interesting enough.

 

I get that it is some sort of reward cache, except that I still need to find the final cache.

 

Keep them, lose them, whatever but make them a milestone souvenir? Probably not enough incentive to find a cache in all the counties in my state. I'm definitely not interested in icon candy.

[+briansnat]

I have no interest in doing them, but people seem to like them so I have no problem with them. I'd really like to see them get their own icon to distinguish them from the puzzle/mystery category.

[+BlueDeuce]

Just so we get this out of the way now, I support valid logging that represents valid souvenir claims.

 

I know, it doesn't affect me so why should I care, and so on and so forth.

[+Ike 13]

I enjoy most of them. Obviously there are some I may never qualify for, but there's some traditionals that require free climbing, etc, that I may never qualify for. I'm find with that. Use the ignore list if need be.

 

Can you provide examples of a challenge cache that pushed the boundaries as you say?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Strikes me as odd that someone who continues to quibble about "Find cache, sign log, log on-line" would choose to argue about guidelines. Ya don't like the way other people play the game, don't impose your viewpoint on others? (Seem to have read something similar somewhere???)

 

Brian... If you don't like Challenge caches, then why did you hide one? Curious...

[sabrefan7]

I did a challenge cache to start off the year. Had a blast doing it but never found the final,,, I haven't had time to get to look for it again if I find great if not ,,, ,, I still had a blast doing it

[+narcissa]

I think challenges would be better served by souvenirs, or a similar sort of profile award system. I think we can all agree that what makes a challenge worthwhile is the challenge itself, and not the cache at the end of it. Challenge caches are limiting because the cacher has to be local to the actual cache in order to complete it. An award system would let the challenge owners open them up to a wider audience.

[+Chokecherry]

I understand why people like them.

 

For me there's no final cache anywhere near me for challenges. And the one I looked into doing would have me ultimately finding a micro next to a busy road after driving 200 miles. So I decided to just not do them at all in general. I'd want more of a reward after putting that effort in. In the meantime I just continue to find the caches I find and enjoy it very much.

[+BlueDeuce]

Challenge caches are maintained by our peers. If we want souvenirs call them something else. Achievement souvenirs.

[+addisonbr]

I think challenges would be better served by souvenirs, or a similar sort of profile award system. I think we can all agree that what makes a challenge worthwhile is the challenge itself, and not the cache at the end of it.

I don't mind challenge caches having a physical cache at the end; to me they're kind of like puzzle caches having a physical cache at the end.

 

But I also don't mind them being based on souvenirs. And I suspect that if geocaching.com were started from scratch today instead of 10 years ago, that's exactly how they would be implemented. Very similar to the FourSquare model where you get electronic achievement badges for doing things of varying degrees of arbitrary-ness.

 

mygeocachingprofile.com has something similar to souvenirs, although they're also called badges there. I've seen them displayed in a number of profile pages.

[+lamoracke]

as a person who has done nearly 50 challenges, I definitely think they have their place.

 

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

 

Yes, its disappointing to try and find a cache thats the end of a challenge or the last cache required for a challenge and its not there...but the same can be said about any cache. I hiked 14 miles round trip for one cache and it took me an hour to find. If it was not there, would I want the cache archived? No, I would just curse, mutter, bemoan and log my DNF unless I had the CO's number and permission to replace it (if missing).

 

Maybe some challenges are not exciting, but still, I think they are a great part of the hobby even if there is no crystal clear definition of what a challenge is. I have a definition in mind when I think of challenges though.

[+BlueDeuce]

Challenge caches will likely move to souvenirs.

 

I'll still have a hard time not cursing the name of the messenger.

[GOF and Bacall]

I understand why people like them.

 

For me there's no final cache anywhere near me for challenges. And the one I looked into doing would have me ultimately finding a micro next to a busy road after driving 200 miles. So I decided to just not do them at all in general. I'd want more of a reward after putting that effort in. In the meantime I just continue to find the caches I find and enjoy it very much.

 

This is the problem right here. No, not you Chokecherry, the popular attitude. The real reward is the journey, the accomplishment. It isn't that one more smiley or silly icon at the end. Be happy in the knowledge that you accomplished a goal. What you got for doing it just isn't important. This is geocaching, not retirement planning.

[+addisonbr]

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

I forgot about this.

 

Yeah, if challenge caches moved to souvenirs I would most definitely miss the logs. A significant percentage of the caches on my watchlist are challenge caches, for specifically this reason.

 

I'll take back what I said about not minding if challenges were based on souvenirs; I'd be bummed about the logs that will never get written.

[knowschad]

I am one that is not happy with the existence of challenge caches at all. It would not matter to me if the end result was a smiley (or not) from a final cache, or a souvenir... I find the whole concept contemptible. To me, a cache is a cache, and I am not interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops before I can find it.

 

However, it seems to me that I am in the minority in my region when it comes to this. I know a lot of cachers that love them. I can't understand why, but I will say that many of those cachers started the activity after challenge caches had emerged, so I guess that they just see it as an aspect that has "always" been there, just as I see micros as an aspect that has always been there.

[+addisonbr]

I am one that is not happy with the existence of challenge caches at all. It would not matter to me if the end result was a smiley (or not) from a final cache, or a souvenir... I find the whole concept contemptible. To me, a cache is a cache, and I am not interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops before I can find it.

I find that most of the challenge caches I am interested in go further back in time and seem (to me) a little less frivolous than many of the ones that have popped up in the last couple of years. I still think DeLorme challenges are pretty cool, for example, although I doubt I'll ever be able to complete one.

 

But there are others I am far less enamored with.

[GOF and Bacall]

I am one that is not happy with the existence of challenge caches at all. It would not matter to me if the end result was a smiley (or not) from a final cache, or a souvenir... I find the whole concept contemptible. To me, a cache is a cache, and I am not interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops before I can find it.

 

However, it seems to me that I am in the minority in my region when it comes to this. I know a lot of cachers that love them. I can't understand why, but I will say that many of those cachers started the activity after challenge caches had emerged, so I guess that they just see it as an aspect that has "always" been there, just as I see micros as an aspect that has always been there.

 

So go find the caches. Just log a note. "Nice little cache you have here. If I ever complete the challenge I'll log it as a find."

[+narcissa]

Another user summed it up best, they stated that the best logs you ever read are on folks who have completed various challenges, especially more challenging ones.

I forgot about this.

 

Yeah, if challenge caches moved to souvenirs I would most definitely miss the logs. A significant percentage of the caches on my watchlist are challenge caches, for specifically this reason.

 

I'll take back what I said about not minding if challenges were based on souvenirs; I'd be bummed about the logs that will never get written.

 

Maybe an award could have logs.

[sdarken]

What's the matter Toz, challenge caches leave a bad taste in your mouth? Some people enjoy that flavor.

 

That's the best post right there. I'd buy you a scoop of your favorite flavor for giving me a chuckle.

[+M 5]

I like having the option of doing a challenge cache if I want to. I don't need them, because I would make up my own challenges anyway, but it is nice to have someone else come up with the idea. I've read numerous challenge cache pages and picked out the ones I liked, even though almost all of them are located in places I am unlikely to go. I hiked and spent time in parks with my kids before geocaching. Geocaching just added to the experience. Same with challenge caches. I would refer to them more as goals. I am goal oriented and enjoy achieving them. It also adds to my travelling. I look for caches that fit certain challenges I am trying to complete and normally just do those caches, plus a few other cherry picked caches. It also can be a tool to find like-minded cachers. I have made some good friends and had a blast by chasing down the Difficulty/Terrain matrix with other geocachers. Not just in the finding of the caches themselves, but a lot of coordinating, travelling and planning was fun as well. I will probably make a cache for that challenge, it will probably only be done by a few, but most of mine only get done by a few anyway.

[knowschad]

What's the matter Toz, challenge caches leave a bad taste in your mouth? Some people enjoy that flavor.

 

That's the best post right there. I'd buy you a scoop of your favorite flavor for giving me a chuckle.

+10

[GOF and Bacall]

What's the matter Toz, challenge caches leave a bad taste in your mouth? Some people enjoy that flavor.

 

That's the best post right there. I'd buy you a scoop of your favorite flavor for giving me a chuckle.

 

Thank you no. I am lactose intolerant.

[+t4e]

i don't care for most challenge caches, there are only a few that seem appealing to me

afaic they're not affecting my caching in any way and they can continue to exist

 

the only thing that is annoying is the "i'm better than you" attitude of those that chose to complete them

[+BlueDeuce]

i don't care for most challenge caches, there are only a few that seem appealing to me

afaic they're not affecting my caching in any way and they can continue to exist

 

the only thing that is annoying is the "i'm better than you" attitude of those that chose to complete them

 

I have never, ever got that sort of attitude from any cacher. Ever.

 

Why don't we stay on topic.

Edited November 30, 2010 by BlueDeuce

[+tozainamboku]

What's the matter Toz, challenge caches leave a bad taste in your mouth? Some people enjoy that flavor.

 

That's the best post right there. I'd buy you a scoop of your favorite flavor for giving me a chuckle.

+10

I should point out that so far I'm not calling for the ban on challenges. I've just indicated my preference that they be handled with something akin to souvenirs instead of with caches. I started the thread to see what others think. I objected to the grandfathering of virtuals and to the ban on ALRs when these first happened, but in both case came to the conclusion that these caches were causing problems for reviewers and other cachers and that the status quo couldn't be maintained. It may be that we are beginning to see problems with challenge caches and I think we can discuss alternatives that may work better.

 

I understand there are some caches not everyone will do. I like puzzle but I know some people skip them, just as some people won't go on long hikes or find a five star tree hide, and others will avoid any hide in a parking lot. So when there is a challenge I'm not going to do I can just ignore it. But I guess I feel like the dog with glasses that despite this it just feels as if someone put out a cache with a challenge just to make me jump through hoops.

 

i don't care for most challenge caches, there are only a few that seem appealing to me

afaic they're not affecting my caching in any way and they can continue to exist

 

the only thing that is annoying is the "i'm better than you" attitude of those that chose to complete them

 

I have never, ever got that sort of attitude from any cacher. Ever.

 

Why don't we stay on topic.

+10

 

Even the challenges I think are ridiculous seem to be worth doing for some people and they will tell me that they had fun doing it. I don't think they have an "I'm better than you" attitude when I say I'm not interested in doing it or that I'll log the challenge if someday I happen to meet the requirement but I'm not going out of my way to do it.

[+lamoracke]

I cant fathom how a souvenir can replace a challenge cache. Souvenirs are very specific, either to an area, or a specific cache, or a way of logging them.

 

There are about 60 challenge caches in Washington, about the same amount in Oregon...and in most cases, totally different from each other. I seriously doubt Geocaching folks are going to create a souvenir for each Challenge that anyone makes, ranging from the standard Delorme, County, or Fizzy challenges to the really strange ones like log 40 non-micros in a row, or log a cache with a different letter of the alphabet with an animal name, etc etc.

 

I can think of 5 or more other reasons but why go on, I have typed enough.....so, maybe souvenirs could work with certain challenges, but I cant fathom simply replacing them.

 

And if you are going to remove challenges as a whole, or at least going forward....you are going to have to be clear what is a challenge vs a series.

[+WRASTRO]

To me a challenge cache is just that. Each cacher can choose to undertake the challenge or ignore it. I have done one challenge cache and enjoyed it but I do not expect to do any others. I certainly am not bothered in any way by the existence of challenge caches. I actually like the idea. Kind of like the arguments for and against puzzles, multis, micros, etc., etc., etc. ...

[+Sol seaker]

Hey, I like my souvenirs, but I would not go through all the trouble of a challenge cache just to get one!!

 

I say, if you don't like challenge caches don't do 'em. I won't interrupt anyone elses fun just because I didn't like 'em.

 

I do, however, like the idea of them having their own icon. I think that is a great idea.

[+niraD]

One of the definitions of ALRs (to distinguish them from tree climbing caches or puzzle caches) was that the the additional logging requirement was for something you had to do after finding the cache in order to log the find.

Just a quibble: I don't think doing the ALR after finding the cache is part of the definition of an ALR. I think the definition of an ALR is that it is a task that must be done in addition to whatever you need to do to find the cache. Logistically, that means that most ALRs will be done after the cache is found, but that's a consequence of the definition, not part of the definition. But enough quibbling...

 

I'd much prefer the new souvenir feature be used for challenges instead of caches. Then you don't have travel hundreds of miles to be disappointed when you don't find the cache. You would simply get a souvenir that says you met the challenge.

I agree that it makes more sense to handle geocaching challenges as souvenirs or some other sort of badge system than as the current system of challenge caches.

 

I don't mind challenge caches having a physical cache at the end; to me they're kind of like puzzle caches having a physical cache at the end.

Hmm... I don't think it's the same at all. Solving the puzzle is part of finding the cache. You may or may not solve it the way the cache owner expected, but you have to solve the puzzle to find the cache.

 

In contrast, except for the grandfathered challenge caches where the cache owner emails you the coordinates after you demonstrate that you've completed the challenge, you can find challenge caches whether or not you've completed the challenge. You just can't log your find online without having your log deleted by the cache owner.

 

I cant fathom how a souvenir can replace a challenge cache. Souvenirs are very specific, either to an area, or a specific cache, or a way of logging them.

Currently, if you find a cache in a specific area, you get a souvenir. Or if you find a cache on a specific date, you get a souvenir. Or if you find certain notable caches, you get a souvenir. And so on.

 

Is it really that big a stretch to imagine that you could also get a souvenir if you fill your difficulty-terrain grid? Or if you log finds on 6 caches with different icons on the same day? Or if you log finds on 26 caches, one starting with each letter of the alphabet? Or if you log a find in every county of a state? Or if you log finds on 55 5-star caches? Or whatever.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

I cant fathom how a souvenir can replace a challenge cache. Souvenirs are very specific, either to an area, or a specific cache, or a way of logging them.

Currently, if you find a cache in a specific area, you get a souvenir. Or if you find a cache on a specific date, you get a souvenir. Or if you find certain notable caches, you get a souvenir. And so on.

 

Is it really that big a stretch to imagine that you could also get a souvenir if you fill your difficulty-terrain grid? Or if you log finds on 6 caches with different icons on the same day? Or if you log finds on 26 caches, one starting with each letter of the alphabet? Or if you log a find in every county of a state? Or if you log finds on 55 5-star caches? Or whatever.

 

I asked about accomplishment based souvenirs just after they came out and have probably mentioned the idea in a couple of other souvenir related threads but I haven't heard a peep out of GS about whether it's something they're considering. It would seem to make a lot of sense to me, much more that getting a souvenir merely by clicking on a button in a mobile phone app.

 

I know that there is a Delorme challenge and all counties in NY but I have no idea where the finals are. There's probably a fizzy challenge and busy day challenge somewhere in the state as well, but they've never shown up on any of my PQs. I've never heard of any of the more obscure challenges like 100 days in a row, or find a cache starting with each letter other than in the forums. There *are* a couple of local challenge caches. One was to find 10 of the oldest caches in the area, and the other was to find at least one cache in several of the many gorges in the area. In both cases, I had satisfied the requirements before the challenge was released. I've never attempted to do any other challenges, and don't really care that they exist. It's pretty easy to avoid any of the drama that comes with some of them simply by not participating.

[+Isonzo Karst]

It's pretty easy to avoid any of the drama that comes with some of them simply by not participating.

 

conversely, you can have the fun of doing a challenge that appeals to you, without necessarily ever finding an associated cache!

 

I read about the Jasmer and have been workin' on it since. Jasmer: find a cache placed in each month since the beginning of geocaching - I need a couple of months from the fall of 2000 -> and I got Georgia on my mind.

 

I have no idea where the nearest Jasmer cache might be, but I like working this challenge.

 

I'm sorta working on the Fizzy, though I'm ignoring the one the Fizzy Challenge nearest me, because its date restrictions make no sense (to me.)

 

Re Toz's OP, the notion of badges, or souvenirs for some recognized, worldwide available Challenges has been discussed at various times. yeah, I like it - but I'm not holding my breathe on it ...

[+addisonbr]

I don't mind challenge caches having a physical cache at the end; to me they're kind of like puzzle caches having a physical cache at the end.

Hmm... I don't think it's the same at all. Solving the puzzle is part of finding the cache. You may or may not solve it the way the cache owner expected, but you have to solve the puzzle to find the cache.

 

In contrast, except for the grandfathered challenge caches where the cache owner emails you the coordinates after you demonstrate that you've completed the challenge, you can find challenge caches whether or not you've completed the challenge. You just can't log your find online without having your log deleted by the cache owner.

I just mean in terms of there being some task or challenge or whatever, and then to commemorate the achievement, you actually go out and do something unique to this activity - get outside and find a geocache, sign a log book, record it online.

 

As opposed to just receiving some sort of ephemeral, electronic set of pixels like you do for most location-based games (Foursquare, etc.). I kind of enjoy the outdoor physicality of marking a geocaching puzzle or challenge by finding a geocache.

[+bflentje]

I am one that is not happy with the existence of challenge caches at all. It would not matter to me if the end result was a smiley (or not) from a final cache, or a souvenir... I find the whole concept contemptible. To me, a cache is a cache, and I am not interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops before I can find it.

 

However, it seems to me that I am in the minority in my region when it comes to this. I know a lot of cachers that love them. I can't understand why, but I will say that many of those cachers started the activity after challenge caches had emerged, so I guess that they just see it as an aspect that has "always" been there, just as I see micros as an aspect that has always been there.

 

I respect your veteran philosophy but CONTEMPIBLE? Come on man. I've been around since before challenges and I love them for many reasons. The biggest thing I like about them is that they've expanded the variety of caches I've found and the places I would not have otherwise have cached in.

 

I see someone not liking challenges for a variety of reasons. But calling them contemptible? That's a big step over the edge.

[+briansnat]

Strikes me as odd that someone who continues to quibble about "Find cache, sign log, log on-line" would choose to argue about guidelines. Ya don't like the way other people play the game, don't impose your viewpoint on others? (Seem to have read something similar somewhere???)

 

Brian... If you don't like Challenge caches, then why did you hide one? Curious...

 

Because some people enjoy them.

[+hzoi]

...the only thing that is annoying is the "i'm better than you" attitude of those that chose to complete them

 

The "I'm better than you because I don't waste my time on challenge caches" attitude can be pretty annoying, too. (Not directed at the quoted poster, just an observation in general.)

 

I like challenge caches. When we were in Europe, they hadn't really taken root yet, so we just cached. Now that we're back in the land of the park and grab, it is nice to add an extra element to the game. I like to think that it makes up for all the skirtlifters and guardrail caches.

Edited November 30, 2010 by hzoi

[+The Jester]

Is it really that big a stretch to imagine that you could also get a souvenir if you fill your difficulty-terrain grid? Or if you log finds on 6 caches with different icons on the same day? Or if you log finds on 26 caches, one starting with each letter of the alphabet? Or if you log a find in every county of a state? Or if you log finds on 55 5-star caches? Or whatever.

My question is who would "award" these souvenirs? Different states have different challenge caches, so would an automated system really work? Or, what about the same challenge in different states (delorme for example)? It sounds like everyone in favor of this wants GC to handle the whole thing - but then there are all those complaints about how they are handling souvenirs now...

 

I like the idea of a cache page where you can read about others journey to finishing the challenge. If the only way to see who has done a challenge is to look at profiles, well there's another thread about profiles and privacy going on...

[+KDotBlueDot]

Challenges caches have gotten me to move around a bit to find caches to meet the criteria, so while I have only completed one, I really enjoyed the attempt.

 

Challenges with severe date restrictions I always ignore. Not for some moral outrage, but just because I don't have the time to devote to the challenge.

 

I do wish they would hurry up and decide what to do with them, because there is no easy way to identify challenges now, and trying to find them on the site is incredibly tough. I have to rely on trolling bookmarks.

[+narcissa]

What if the challenge was created, reviewed, and maintained similar to a geocache, but there's no container to find? The owner of the challenge could still confirm that the challenge was completed, people could still write cool logs, and they would be open to a wider range of geocachers.

 

Statistics like the difficulty/terrain matrix are neat, but Groundspeak doesn't generate those charts, nor do they host the software that does.

[+addisonbr]

Statistics like the difficulty/terrain matrix are neat, but Groundspeak doesn't generate those charts, nor do they host the software that does.

This is a very tangential point, but this may be changing according to the current "status" of this request:

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...-page?ref=title

[knowschad]

I cant fathom how a souvenir can replace a challenge cache. Souvenirs are very specific, either to an area, or a specific cache, or a way of logging them.

They can't, and they won't. Who is going to do the graphics for the souvenirs... Groundspeak? I don't think so. I don't have a count of how many active challenge caches we have in my caching area alone, but to be very conservative, it would be dozens. No... this whole conversation of getting a souvenir as the "reward" instead of a possibly missing final cache smiley is an exersize in mootiness. (I made that word up! )

[+Isonzo Karst]

What if the challenge was created, reviewed, and maintained similar to a geocache, but there's no container to find? The owner of the challenge could still confirm that the challenge was completed, people could still write cool logs, and they would be open to a wider range of geocachers.

 

This notion, of a cache page with no cache - comes close to a some of the old Locationless. Some of the Locationless were for "actions" - Catch a Fish, Get a Speeding Ticket, Meet Your Government Officials...

 

Just a rather pointless observation. I don't foresee the return of any form of Locationless, or "boxless" challenge caches, either.

[Andronicus]

I have no interest in doing them, but people seem to like them so I have no problem with them. I'd really like to see them get their own icon to distinguish them from the puzzle/mystery category.

+1

Having finds the the "Challange" catagory would be a sufficient trophy to flaunt to your friends. No need for souveniers.

[Andronicus]

It's pretty easy to avoid any of the drama that comes with some of them simply by not participating.

 

conversely, you can have the fun of doing a challenge that appeals to you, without necessarily ever finding an associated cache!

 

I read about the Jasmer and have been workin' on it since. Jasmer: find a cache placed in each month since the beginning of geocaching - I need a couple of months from the fall of 2000 -> and I got Georgia on my mind.

 

I have no idea where the nearest Jasmer cache might be, but I like working this challenge.

 

I'm sorta working on the Fizzy, though I'm ignoring the one the Fizzy Challenge nearest me, because its date restrictions make no sense (to me.)

 

Re Toz's OP, the notion of badges, or souvenirs for some recognized, worldwide available Challenges has been discussed at various times. yeah, I like it - but I'm not holding my breathe on it ...

I am also working on some personal challanges, but so far, no challange cache. There is one I would like to work on, but based on the amount of time I have to cache, it would take 5 years. Not sure I can keep my interest that long.

[+narcissa]

What if the challenge was created, reviewed, and maintained similar to a geocache, but there's no container to find? The owner of the challenge could still confirm that the challenge was completed, people could still write cool logs, and they would be open to a wider range of geocachers.

 

This notion, of a cache page with no cache - comes close to a some of the old Locationless. Some of the Locationless were for "actions" - Catch a Fish, Get a Speeding Ticket, Meet Your Government Officials...

 

Just a rather pointless observation. I don't foresee the return of any form of Locationless, or "boxless" challenge caches, either.

 

It doesn't need to count as a find, it would an "award" but with its own page so people could comment on it and someone could be responsible for making sure people fulfilled the criteria.

 

I think it would be tricky to implement challenges as a souvenir as it stands now, because the souvenirs seem to be based on a single variable (i.e. cached on a certain day, cached in a particular state). For a souvenir to be automatically awarded to your account for, say, filling a matrix, it would need to be programmed to detect that.

 

Having it in a format similar to a cache page would mean that the onus is on the geocacher to show that they've fulfilled the criteria of the challenge. You go, click "complete challenge" or whatever, write your celebratory post, and the person who owns the challenge can make sure it's right. Maybe the award could go on the same page as the souvenirs.

 

Just an idea. I'd probably be a little more interested in doing the challenges people set up if they didn't require me to find a less-than-stellar cache in Toronto or whatever to complete them. We have a great challenge in Ottawa that's been administered on someone's private website for years, and finishing that challenge together is how my soon-to-be-husband and I got to know each other.

[+niraD]

I am one that is not happy with the existence of challenge caches at all. It would not matter to me if the end result was a smiley (or not) from a final cache, or a souvenir... I find the whole concept contemptible. To me, a cache is a cache, and I am not interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops before I can find it.

 

However, it seems to me that I am in the minority in my region when it comes to this. I know a lot of cachers that love them. I can't understand why, but I will say that many of those cachers started the activity after challenge caches had emerged, so I guess that they just see it as an aspect that has "always" been there, just as I see micros as an aspect that has always been there.

I respect your veteran philosophy but CONTEMPIBLE? Come on man. I've been around since before challenges and I love them for many reasons. The biggest thing I like about them is that they've expanded the variety of caches I've found and the places I would not have otherwise have cached in.

 

I see someone not liking challenges for a variety of reasons. But calling them contemptible? That's a big step over the edge.

Maybe I'm misreading knowschad's post, but I don't think he's calling challenges contemptible. I think he's calling challenge caches contemptible. And the reason sounds like the same reason many oppose ALR caches: "I can find the cache, sign the physical log, trade items, etc., but an arbitrary rule (ALR, challenge, whatever) prevents me from logging my find online."

 

While I can understand and sympathize with this point of view, I don't entirely agree with it. For me, it's more a matter of consistency, and of using the right tool for the job.

[+Gamaliel]

What if the challenge was created, reviewed, and maintained similar to a geocache, but there's no container to find? The owner of the challenge could still confirm that the challenge was completed, people could still write cool logs, and they would be open to a wider range of geocachers.

 

As a big fan of challenge caches, I don't have a problem with replacing the cache with a souvenir if it is done this way. Custom owner-designed souvenir icons would be cool too.

 

It would be a big help to me since I seem to lose interest in the challenge after I complete it but before I go find the challenge cache itself.