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How far from Cachetopia?


Tatooed Lady

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After reading a LOT of posts on how lousy many newbie caches are due to them not knowing the rules and guidelines (and some veteran cachers as well), I'd like to see a thread posted HELPING those who are without a clue...In a perfect world, coords would be dead-on for all caches, there would be no soggy logs, irate cache owners or seekers...or landowners...and the only way I see to help us get closer to Cachetopia is by offering a hand up to those who need a gentle nudge to get cache placement, container and info right.

Obviously, griping about these things online isn't effective...thinking that all the old-timers will drop everything to offer assistance round the clock is absurd...but this is a FORUM....a meeting of the minds, melding of ideas. What better place for someone (like me) to search out how to avoid the pitfalls of placing a GOOD cache for all to enjoy??? Let's use it to better the hobby!

 

I'd like to suggest that cache containers all be REALLY waterproof. Not a cassette case or CD sleeve...lock n lock containers, soda bottles (talk about waterproof!), most pill bottles I've seen, etc....let's remember that the great outdoors can be VERY hard on caches!!

 

PS-I know this isn't a unique idea for a post, but I'd like to think that others will see it and add wisdom for all.

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Use trackables correctly (logging, helping the mission, etc..) and only place them in established caches (at least several months) that haven't had muggle issues. A new cache is an unknown, although I'm sure there are exceptions. Use that as a rule of thumb.

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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

 

The coordinates are supposed to be accurate and not soft but there is a margin of error with all devices. You should never place a cache with purposely soft coordinates.

 

For the newbies, go to the events and don't be scared to e-mail the established cachers. I had great e-mail conversations with the person that owned the first cache I found. She was very helpful to me and my friend who started with me learning some of the ropes. Went to my first event last weekend and met a bunch of new people and got all sorts of information.

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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

Scary post. :(

 

Coordinates should be as accurate as possible. No exceptions.

 

If you want to make it more challenging you can:

  • Select a location with bad GPSr reception
  • Use quality camouflage
  • Put it in a difficult to access location

Using bad/poor coordinates is a poor man's way to make caching interesting. There are other ways to make the search challenging without spoiling the game with bad information.

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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

One more comment...

 

I've got one geocacher in my area that regularly posts coordinates that are 25-30 feet off (in an urban environment). My assumption is that the CO isn't that smart and doesn't know how to use their equipment. I never go out of my way to find their caches. Bad coordinates are NOT fun.

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we'll stay on topic on this one, I don't want arguing or disagreements to dilute the potential usefulness of this thread. :( Cachetopia, remember? *LOL*

Okay, that being said, I agree 110% with Chokecherry....get out and go to events or clinics...I've been to all of 2 clinics, and I met some really OBSESSED cachers...as in, they go out in the morning, POWER WALK (or run) from the vehicle to GZ, and truck on back to the vehicle or onto the next one if there are several close to each other, then repeat all day long...I'm not a numbers freak...but to meet other people with other skills and technique....PRICELESS.

Plus, those with a high number of finds can usually guide people like me to "think outside the box" on the trickier caches.

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Yes, bad coordinates are one of the hallmarks of a "Bad Hide"

 

within 25 feet is not acceptable, especially considering that the device's accuracy may be 25 feet, then you've got a 50 foot radius to search. Most people do not search out 50 feet.

 

Pill bottles do NOT make good waterproof containers, and neither do film cans.

 

There have been many threads devoted to "what makes a good geo-container"

 

Here is a page from Groundspeak on Cache containers

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?p....page&id=75

 

(they do say that SOME pill bottles work, but the thing is, which ones?)

 

Ammo cans, Lock and Lock containers, "bison tubes" and a few others make good containers.

 

Things that don't make good containers:

Glass, film cans; glad ware or other cheap plastic food storage containers; bags (yeah, I've seen it),

 

It also makes a difference where you hide the container geographically. Some containers work in the desert regions, while some that work there won't work here in the Pacific Northwest.

Places where it freezes in the winter have to have containers that will stand up to that.

 

It also depends on WHERE you hide it.

A key holder is not waterproof and won't stand up under a small rain shower, yet I've seen them in totally protected areas where they have done just fine.

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The problem with threads like this is you very quickly have things stated as fact that others vehemently disagree with.

 

One person states that all cache containers must be 100% waterproof. Another states that no container is 100% waterproof.

 

One person states that baggies should be used to protect the log, regardless of the container. Another states that baggies are the hallmark of a bad container choice and only leads to fouled container seals, torn baggies, and wet logs.

 

One person states that a certain container is never a good choice (film can, PB jar, glass, key hide, LnL, et al). Another states that any of these may be an awesome container, in the right setting.

Edited by sbell111
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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

I think this is exactly the kind of newbie thinking that needs some correcting.

 

First of all - Our handhld units are only capable of somewhere around 15 to 25 foot accuracy under most conditions. Add that to the hiders unknown error and that is why you often find caches a bit off. So finding caches up to 40 and even 50 foot off should be considered normal - not lousy coordinates.

 

Second, all cachers should strive to privide the most accurate coordinates that we reasonably can. Wait for the EPE on your unit to get low, take multiple readings on several different days, do a reality check on the coordinates you come up with. Use more than 1 unit.

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Read the guidelines, Kowldge Books, and FAQ's. Almost every question has already been asked and answered.

 

Everything you need to know, or at least get a very good start, is in the resourses listed above.

Maybe folks should READ before they play.

There's also a section in the forums called, "Getting Started." Questions are answered there.

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Take more than one reading for the coordinates.
Once you have coordinates, verify them by walking away from the cache and using your device to return to the coordinates. The arrow should point to the cache no matter which direction you approach from. If not, then adjust the coordinates until the arrow does point to the cache no matter which direction you approach from.

 

Repeat this on a different day when the satellites are in a different configuration.

 

I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.
As others have said, the inaccuracy inherent in consumer GPS devices is plenty. Even under ideal circumstances, with coordinates as accurate as the cache owner could make them and with my device having a clear view of the satellites, I still need to search a 15' radius from GZ. The CO's coordinates should be as accurate as possible.
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One person states that baggies should be used to protect the log, regardless of the container. Another states that baggies are the hallmark of a bad container choice and only leads to fouled container seals, torn baggies, and wet logs.

Not to take away from your points, but I believe the comment was in regard to baggies BEING the container, not as an additional protection for the log.

 

I too have seen baggies AS containers.

 

Back on topic...

 

I believe it's reasonable to explain to newbies that there are good reasons why certain containers should not be used in specific situations.

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Use trackables correctly (logging, helping the mission, etc..) and only place them in established caches (at least several months) that haven't had muggle issues. A new cache is an unknown, although I'm sure there are exceptions. Use that as a rule of thumb.

 

I disagree. I like putting tbs and gcs in née caches because I know they will be hit by a lot of people, usually our best cachers. I know my bug will be safe and picked up quickly in a new cache...

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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

I think this is exactly the kind of newbie thinking that needs some correcting.

 

First of all - Our handhld units are only capable of somewhere around 15 to 25 foot accuracy under most conditions. Add that to the hiders unknown error and that is why you often find caches a bit off. So finding caches up to 40 and even 50 foot off should be considered normal - not lousy coordinates.

 

Second, all cachers should strive to privide the most accurate coordinates that we reasonably can. Wait for the EPE on your unit to get low, take multiple readings on several different days, do a reality check on the coordinates you come up with. Use more than 1 unit.

 

But the hider's coordinates can be improved immensely by using Google Earth to get a much more exact set of coordinates, assuming the landmarks can be identified from the sat photos.

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I wouldn't wan the coords to be spot on perfect. It wouldn't be much fun to walk right up to a cache using a GPS'r without ever having to hunt for it. However, I do agree they need to be accurate within 25 feet or so.

Scary post. :)

 

Coordinates should be as accurate as possible. No exceptions.

 

If you want to make it more challenging you can:

  • Select a location with bad GPSr reception
  • Use quality camouflage
  • Put it in a difficult to access location

Using bad/poor coordinates is a poor man's way to make caching interesting. There are other ways to make the search challenging without spoiling the game with bad information.

I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

Edited by TerraViators
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In a perfect world, coords would be dead-on for all caches, there would be no soggy logs, irate cache owners or seekers...or landowners...and the only way I see to help us get closer to Cachetopia is by offering a hand up to those who need a gentle nudge to get cache placement, container and info right.

 

In a perfect world, every cache would be my favorite kind of hide (interesting location, nice hike, large, easy-to-find cache) and everyone would leave a $50 bill for me to find in the cache. In the real world I'm just happy enough if if the cache placement doesn't encourage me to run home and put it on my ignore list.

 

Residential caches in full view of neighbors (who may or may not know about the game) are my least favorite and often end up on my ignore list.

 

I will hunt for caches that take me to locations that have no point (nothing to see, no history, no special reason for a cache to be placed there) but they don't fit in my vision for cachetopia. As others have described in detail, poor container choice and bad coordinates are problems that can be fixed relatively easily.

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Not what I said. I said I wouldn't want them to be "spot on perfect."

Why not? The GPSr the cacher is using, isn't. We've got a cache near here where *I KNOW* where the cache is within a 2.5 ft. square area. We've visited it at least seven times, with as many as four people and haven't found it yet. It's a good hide.

 

Before you think I'm Mr. Magoo, I've found a cache that was 250' off.

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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

My unit often takes me to within inches of a cache, and I still find caching fun...

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I've seen caches with purposely soft coordinates and what happens when cachers en masse begin looking for it. It is not long before everything is trampled down or tore up and heaven forbid it's in a city (perhaps in a city garden). Not all geocachers are careful. Some are just there for a find regardless of damage done. Potentially there is always damage but it doesn't have to be exacerbated by bad coordinates. It's not usual here for people to post how far off the coordinates are and in what direction.

 

Along with going to events and such I suggest to the new folks to be a good steward of geocaching.

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Not what I said. I said I wouldn't want them to be "spot on perfect."

Why not? The GPSr the cacher is using, isn't. We've got a cache near here where *I KNOW* where the cache is within a 2.5 ft. square area. We've visited it at least seven times, with as many as four people and haven't found it yet. It's a good hide.

 

Before you think I'm Mr. Magoo, I've found a cache that was 250' off.

Again, I didn't say I don't think the coords should be off. I clearly said I don't want to walk right up to a cache and see it right away. I enjoy the hunt more than the find.

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Read the guidelines, Kowldge Books, and FAQ's. Almost every question has already been asked and answered.

 

Everything you need to know, or at least get a very good start, is in the resourses listed above.

Maybe folks should READ before they play.

There's also a section in the forums called, "Getting Started." Questions are answered there.

 

Agreed, HOWEVER...sometimes we can't see what's in front of us because it's sat there so long. We need things revamped to keep our interest (like ferrets liking shiny objects, it is what it is)...so this is old stuff reposted with a new look, plus it's commented on by people who are known in the caching community...maybe these friends can "dumb it down" or condense all that information into quicker, smaller tidbits which can have more impact on those like me who want it all, want it now and get easily distracted. At any rate, so far we've had some great ideas and feedback to the thread, so why stop sharing ideas? Wow, I feel the LOVE here!! :)

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Read the guidelines, Kowldge Books, and FAQ's. Almost every question has already been asked and answered.

 

Everything you need to know, or at least get a very good start, is in the resourses listed above.

Maybe folks should READ before they play.

There's also a section in the forums called, "Getting Started." Questions are answered there.

 

Agreed, HOWEVER...sometimes we can't see what's in front of us because it's sat there so long. We need things revamped to keep our interest (like ferrets liking shiny objects, it is what it is)...so this is old stuff reposted with a new look, plus it's commented on by people who are known in the caching community...maybe these friends can "dumb it down" or condense all that information into quicker, smaller tidbits which can have more impact on those like me who want it all, want it now and get easily distracted. At any rate, so far we've had some great ideas and feedback to the thread, so why stop sharing ideas? Wow, I feel the LOVE here!! :)

 

There's no end of help for new geocachers, here in the "Getting Started" section of the forum, or in the numerous local forums for geocachers all over the world. There are all kinds of geocaching blogs out there as well. If you are willing to take some initiative, there's no end of help and advice for new geocachers. Starting a vague thread that's probably in the wrong section of the forum and then trying to control the discourse that occurs here is likely not the best course of action if you sincerely want to learn the ropes.

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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

There are no units that lead you inches away. Even if there were, everybody would have to be using them when hiding as well as seeking. They're interpreting it that way because that's what it sounds like.

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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

There are no units that lead you inches away. Even if there were, everybody would have to be using them when hiding as well as seeking. They're interpreting it that way because that's what it sounds like.

 

There are no consumer grade, handheld units that consistently bring you within a few inches (besides that, the most precise unit of measure my GPS tells me is metres or feet) but it does happen that I zero out on a spot and the cache is right there. And I was pretty impressed this summer to find a survey benchmark and see my GPS reading 0 metres from the coordinates for the marker.

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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

There are no units that lead you inches away. Even if there were, everybody would have to be using them when hiding as well as seeking. They're interpreting it that way because that's what it sounds like.

 

There are no consumer grade, handheld units that consistently bring you within a few inches (besides that, the most precise unit of measure my GPS tells me is metres or feet) but it does happen that I zero out on a spot and the cache is right there. And I was pretty impressed this summer to find a survey benchmark and see my GPS reading 0 metres from the coordinates for the marker.

 

The local geocaching group, where I live, had a professional surveyor get coordinates for a post at the beginning of a nature trail. We call it the accuracy checker. You can do that with benchmarks, but this is easier for most cachers. It works well, because its part of a geo-skills series to teach new cachers many skills needed for caching. Accuracy changes every day (even throughout the day), so you can see how far your GPS is off the accuracy post and then complete the trail using the direction and distance you are off to help in the finds for that day. It's not perfect, but all the hides were done on the same day as the post was surveyed and there is a good chance they will all err close to the same. Here is the cache if anyone is interested. GC250JF

Edited by M 5
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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

There are no units that lead you inches away. Even if there were, everybody would have to be using them when hiding as well as seeking. They're interpreting it that way because that's what it sounds like.

 

I'm with TerraVisitors. If my GPS put me dead on the cache every time it would take away some of the challenge. Hiding a cache with intentionally soft coordinates is bad. The inherent inaccuracy of consumer grade GPS units provides soft enough coordinates even if you try your best to provide good coords.

Edited by briansnat
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The local geocaching group, where I live, had a professional surveyor get coordinates for a post at the beginning of a nature trail. We call it the accuracy checker. You can do that with benchmarks, but this is easier for most cachers. It works well, because its part of a geo-skills series to teach new cachers many skills needed for caching. Accuracy changes every day (even throughout the day), so you can see how far your GPS is off the accuracy post and then complete the trail using the direction and distance you are off to help in the finds for that day. It's not perfect, but all the hides were done on the same day as the post was surveyed and there is a good chance they will all err close to the same. Here is the cache if anyone is interested. GC250JF

That is a brilliantly cool idea.

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Read the guidelines, Kowldge Books, and FAQ's. Almost every question has already been asked and answered.

 

Everything you need to know, or at least get a very good start, is in the resourses listed above.

Maybe folks should READ before they play.

There's also a section in the forums called, "Getting Started." Questions are answered there.

 

Agreed, HOWEVER...sometimes we can't see what's in front of us because it's sat there so long. We need things revamped to keep our interest (like ferrets liking shiny objects, it is what it is)...so this is old stuff reposted with a new look, plus it's commented on by people who are known in the caching community...maybe these friends can "dumb it down" or condense all that information into quicker, smaller tidbits which can have more impact on those like me who want it all, want it now and get easily distracted. At any rate, so far we've had some great ideas and feedback to the thread, so why stop sharing ideas? Wow, I feel the LOVE here!! :)

 

There's no end of help for new geocachers, here in the "Getting Started" section of the forum, or in the numerous local forums for geocachers all over the world. There are all kinds of geocaching blogs out there as well. If you are willing to take some initiative, there's no end of help and advice for new geocachers. Starting a vague thread that's probably in the wrong section of the forum and then trying to control the discourse that occurs here is likely not the best course of action if you sincerely want to learn the ropes.

 

I've read a lot of what's put in the getting started section. I've read books on geocaching. I've READ a lot of posts that jump around topic to topic, and always seem to veer off the main thought. Like this thread. It started as a quest for current cachers to post hints and tips. It's veered off to the ditch more than once, and if you think that my trying to push it back toward the main reason I'd started it as being an attempt to control discourse? Maybe it is. BUT...why can't we all just OCCASIONALLY post helpful tidbits without complaining? No one HAD to post anything on this thread, it can be passed by as easily as any other. And while this thread was intended more for NEW geocachers, I'd bet my left eyetooth that there are veterans who could learn a thing or two from this.

 

M 5, about the professional surveyor....that sounds like an interesting way to check accuracy...have you done that particular group of caches? How'd it work for you?

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Yes, bad coordinates are one of the hallmarks of a "Bad Hide"

 

within 25 feet is not acceptable, especially considering that the device's accuracy may be 25 feet, then you've got a 50 foot radius to search. Most people do not search out 50 feet.

 

In my opinion (it really should be unnecessary be a post with those words) 25' is perfectly acceptable when there few possible hiding location *and* the cache is rated correctly. I have a couple of hides that are hidden amongst the branches of a lone tree with nothing but a grass field for at least a 100 foot radius around it. It's clearly obvious that one must search the tree to find it. Before anyone responds that it wouldn't be fun because it would be too easy:

 

I don't consider "easy" caches to be necessarily bad as long as they have something else going for them.

 

In both cases some natural camo is used.

 

If someone finds the cache within seconds that just gives them more time to enjoy a couple of the best scenic views in the area.

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In my opinion (it really should be unnecessary be a post with those words) 25' is perfectly acceptable when there few possible hiding location *and* the cache is rated correctly.

I think we're in general agreement. I draw a (subtle) distinction between the following:

 

1) coordinates that represent my best guess, and although I know they may not be spot-on I'm fairly confident that they're within 25 feet

 

2) coordinates that are intentionally fudged by the CO to be 25 feet away from what (s)he thinks is correct

 

The former is good faith best efforts; the latter I can't support.

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I think some folks have interpreted my statement that I don't want to walk right up to GZ, look down, and see a cache as encouraging inaccurate coords. No where in my statement do I say that. My point is that how fun would it be to have your unit lead you inches away from a cache? IMO, not fun.

 

My unit often takes me to within inches of a cache, and I still find caching fun...

 

Sometime my unit tells me I'm within inches of a cache and I still have trouble finding it.

 

I was looking for a cache a year or so ago that had a hint that it was magnetic. I followed my GPS to a spot where it said I was within 12-15' where there was a telephone pole with metal guy wires in the ground. I searched them thoroughly and started to think it might be missing. Then I figured I'd search the large metal bridge that was about 100' away "just in case". When I got close to the bridge (where I found the cache stuck under a metal rail) I looked at me GPS again and it said I was 10-15 feet away from GZ. I'm guessing I got some sort of signal bounce off of the metal bridge that had me searching the first area.

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I have found a lot of caches that contain a pen or sharpened pencil in the plastic bag with the log. The writing instrument quickly punches a hole in the bag nullifying any water protection qualities of the baggie. I would suggest log in baggie and sharp objects elsewhere. Now we are just a little closer to Cachetopia.

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I have found a lot of caches that contain a pen or sharpened pencil in the plastic bag with the log. The writing instrument quickly punches a hole in the bag nullifying any water protection qualities of the baggie. I would suggest log in baggie and sharp objects elsewhere. Now we are just a little closer to Cachetopia.

It seems so obvious when you say it out loud and yet... I never really thought about that. I always throw the pencil in with the log book. I going to have to stop doing that.

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I've read a lot of what's put in the getting started section. I've read books on geocaching. I've READ a lot of posts that jump around topic to topic, and always seem to veer off the main thought. Like this thread. It started as a quest for current cachers to post hints and tips. It's veered off to the ditch more than once, and if you think that my trying to push it back toward the main reason I'd started it as being an attempt to control discourse? Maybe it is. BUT...why can't we all just OCCASIONALLY post helpful tidbits without complaining? No one HAD to post anything on this thread, it can be passed by as easily as any other. And while this thread was intended more for NEW geocachers, I'd bet my left eyetooth that there are veterans who could learn a thing or two from this.

 

M 5, about the professional surveyor....that sounds like an interesting way to check accuracy...have you done that particular group of caches? How'd it work for you?

 

Worked great for me. The entire series is well done and well written. I think the important part is for cachers to realize that you don't walk to GZ, lift up your foot and there it is. I have seen many many many logs, mostly by newer cachers, claiming that the coords are off by X number of feet. Only because they don't understand the inaccuracies in GPSr's. Here is a exerpt from the cache page. "Even with the most current GPSr units, any two will rarely agree on an EXACT location. Even units of the same make and model, or a single unit at a different time and under different conditions, will disagree."

I don't pretend to understand everything about GPS's, but I know the surveryor had a chart with Date and Time to help determine accuracy.

Edited by M 5
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--No matter how waterproof you think your container is, put your log in a ziplock bag.

 

I must respectfully disagree. If your container is truly waterproof, no ziplock is needed. And if some stray moisture does get in (say, from someone signing the log while it's raining) the bag will only guarantee that the log will never dry.

 

--Do a reality check of your coords using satellite images.

 

Depends on the location. Where I am, that's usually a good idea. In some locations that I've seen, the Google Earth/Google map aerial images are off more than a newbies iPhone coordinates.

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