Pre-Sales of Geocoins

[+AtwellFamily]

I see a thread right now where it doesn't look like someone is delivery coins. I also see the thread about pre-sales on eBay, and then there are those who have taken money in the past conducting pre-sales again.

 

I am a bit confused...

 

Why do people continue to give their money to unknown strangers that are not willing or can't afford to finance the coins on their own. If they need your money to make the coin, does this not tell you that if something goes wrong it will be a while before you see your money or your coins. And in a numbers of cases recently, neither!

 

1. Can someone tell me why you would give your money to strangers, in hopes that 30-45 days or longer, they will produce a coin with no issues and then send you your order?

 

2. Outside of coins do you do this in other areas of your life, with other strangers that in most cases don't have a business license?

 

Thanks for your help understanding.

Mike

[+LionsLair]

I'm always asking these same questions when I see the words "pre-sale"

 

 

I think many are confused on the diference between "pre-sales" and "reservations"

 

 

...quite honestly, unless it is something from a vendor that has earned my respect, I get turned off by the whole "pre-sale" idea and often don't bother to try and aquire the coin even after it is minted... I will however jump on a reservation, knowing I'm not responsible to pay for anything until the coin has been minted and ready to ship, if I like the design....

[+lgass]

that helps the ones who are producing support the cost, but it also gives them an idea of how many people want the coin.

 

they can adapt the order to the minter to the amount of people who want the coin...

 

it also helps to save some money... one buys on a pre-sale for $10 and aftter 2 months for $12 or more...

[+BackBrakeBilly]

 

2. Outside of coins do you do this in other areas of your life, with other strangers that in most cases don't have a business license?

 

Thanks for your help understanding.

Mike

 

Actually Mike, I think just about everything you purchase over the internet would be somewhat of a presell. I can't ever remember getting a item and then paying for it, I have ALWAYs had to pay for it and then I receive it...

I have done several "Presells" of coins on here in the past with NO problems whatsoever! I guess it depends on who you deal with huh but they way you are putting this is that everyone who "presells" anything is a bad risk which just isn't the truth....

 

Try go buying a snuggie over the net without paying for it first and then waiting 3 weeks for delivery, it ain't gonna happen!!!

[+AtwellFamily]

 

2. Outside of coins do you do this in other areas of your life, with other strangers that in most cases don't have a business license?

 

Thanks for your help understanding.

Mike

 

Actually Mike, I think just about everything you purchase over the internet would be somewhat of a presell. I can't ever remember getting a item and then paying for it, I have ALWAYs had to pay for it and then I receive it...

I have done several "Presells" of coins on here in the past with NO problems whatsoever! I guess it depends on who you deal with huh but they way you are putting this is that everyone who "presells" anything is a bad risk which just isn't the truth....

 

Try go buying a snuggie over the net without paying for it first and then waiting 3 weeks for delivery, it ain't gonna happen!!!

I am not talking about delivery time. I am also not painting everyone with the same brush.

 

There are many times that someone says I am going to get this things made if I can just get the money from you first. In your example it would be ordering the snuggie and them saying, we haven't made them yet but one I get enough money to order 100 I'll make them, should take about 2-3 before I have the money, 4-6 for the production and depending on shipping location another 1-2, for a total of 7-11 weeks. Not sure anyone would order something from the internet if they were told that.

 

Mike

[+MustangJoni]

The problem that Mike is pointing out is that when you are buying a pre-sale for a coin that they are using your funds to mint, is that it is going to take between 30-45 days to get it. Paying via paypal, you only have 45 days to make a dispute and get your money back. In most of the pre-sales that have gone bad, I've seen the seller come on and make some excuse for lack of delivery just before the 45 days elapses.

 

But in the case of a snuggie, the item is manufactured, and you should receive it well within the 45 day paypal limit.

[+Jackalgirl]

I guess in my case, it's because the cost of manufacturing is pretty high, the volume is pretty low, and a lot of the people involved are very small-time professionals (or amateurs, in some cases). So I understand the desire to have the money in hand in order to pay the mint. No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor).

 

For geocoins, there are certain vendors whom I trust to deliver the goods. They have, essentially, given me their word that they will pay for and deliver the goods in a reasonable timeframe (reasonable = time to collect money + time to pay mint + manufacturing time + picking/packing/shipping time). Because I trust that word, I don't mind paying ahead of time. It also helps when the vendors in question do quality work that I feel will be valuable over time*. Most importantly, they have kept their word time and time again -- in other words, I've paid for the coins, and gotten the coins.

 

*Why? I don't know. It's not like I'll ever sell them. My preciouses.

 

Other vendors I trust a little less. I have to really, really, really like the coin design involved in order to even consider it.

 

Other vendors I don't even bother with.

 

I really don't like the idea of someone doing a pre-sale in order to gauge interest. It's a super bad idea. Because if there isn't enough interest to make the coin and if you've actually taken anyone's money, you now have to refund the money. It sounds simple, and I know that PayPal makes it pretty easy (if you're using PayPal), but it takes a disciplined and very organized person to make sure that it goes off without a hitch. If a new vendor is reading this: please don't use this method to gauge interest. Do reservations instead. Yeah, they're a huge pain also because you have to keep track of who reserved what, but no money is involved. MUCH, much less angst.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Jackalgirl

[+ECplus3]

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

 

I now do the presale thing. A few people have commented on threads that they would buy my coin if it wasn't a presale, but for the most part I haven't had complaints. For me the presale isn't because I don't have the money up front. It is a matter of protecting myself from getting stuck with inventory.

[+tsunrisebey]

A subject that makes me cringe, go back a couple years ago and read some of the nightmares on both sides of the coin regarding this issue (buyer/vendor).

 

Let's review a couple of facts about presales.

 

#1: As a vendor, if you get reported for doing a presale, your paypal account can be locked until you deliver each and every coin or refund each presale. I know this first hand. Pray this never happens to you as a vendor.

 

#2: What are you going to do if the vendor has something come up in their life at the moment they wrap up presales? How many times have we watched vendors here (even ones who were considered reliable) take the money and run? Definitely more than once, twice or three times.

 

If you engage in buying on a presale, don't whine or throw a fit down the road when your money gets taken because you're only engaging in gambling.

 

I know this is a harsh attitude but if you can't afford to make a coin with your own cash, then you shouldn't be making coins on your own. The big-time vendors have options for this reason. Everyone benefits.

 

tsun

[+LionsLair]

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

 

I now do the presale thing. A few people have commented on threads that they would buy my coin if it wasn't a presale, but for the most part I haven't had complaints. For me the presale isn't because I don't have the money up front. It is a matter of protecting myself from getting stuck with inventory.

 

 

I'll bite...

 

I've got to ask...

 

If you are worried about "getting stuck with inventory" then why are you minting coins for resale anyhow? I would think it was inherant risk for anyone that wanted to mint for resale?

 

Is there an unwritten law that says once minted they must all sell within XX number of days or the minting wasn't a success...?

 

...personally I've never understood the logic behind thinking this way. please explain, and help those like myself understand...

[+ECplus3]

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

 

I now do the presale thing. A few people have commented on threads that they would buy my coin if it wasn't a presale, but for the most part I haven't had complaints. For me the presale isn't because I don't have the money up front. It is a matter of protecting myself from getting stuck with inventory.

 

 

I'll bite...

 

I've got to ask...

 

If you are worried about "getting stuck with inventory" then why are you minting coins for resale anyhow? I would think it was inherant risk for anyone that wanted to mint for resale?

 

Is there an unwritten law that says once minted they must all sell within XX number of days or the minting wasn't a success...?

 

...personally I've never understood the logic behind thinking this way. please explain, and help those like myself understand...

 

I am minting coins because I like designing them. My profit on a sale is pretty slim, so if I'm left with extras because people backed out, then I'll be losing money and will eventually have to stop altogether. If I factor in the time it takes to design the coins, then I really am losing money.

 

For me, coins that don't sell in the initial run rarely ever sell. Period. If people back out on a reservation, I will likely never sell them through my store. I don't know if people just never visit my store except when I announce a presale or what it is (I am fairly far down on the approved vendor list).

[+LionsLair]

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

 

I now do the presale thing. A few people have commented on threads that they would buy my coin if it wasn't a presale, but for the most part I haven't had complaints. For me the presale isn't because I don't have the money up front. It is a matter of protecting myself from getting stuck with inventory.

 

 

I'll bite...

 

I've got to ask...

 

If you are worried about "getting stuck with inventory" then why are you minting coins for resale anyhow? I would think it was inherant risk for anyone that wanted to mint for resale?

 

Is there an unwritten law that says once minted they must all sell within XX number of days or the minting wasn't a success...?

 

...personally I've never understood the logic behind thinking this way. please explain, and help those like myself understand...

 

I am minting coins because I like designing them. My profit on a sale is pretty slim, so if I'm left with extras because people backed out, then I'll be losing money and will eventually have to stop altogether. If I factor in the time it takes to design the coins, then I really am losing money.

 

For me, coins that don't sell in the initial run rarely ever sell. Period. If people back out on a reservation, I will likely never sell them through my store. I don't know if people just never visit my store except when I announce a presale or what it is (I am fairly far down on the approved vendor list).

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't buy all that...

 

the reason you don't factor in your time should be because you enjoy designing them, you mint them for resale to make $.... The only way you could lose money is through "over minting" or not selling about 1/2 of what you do mint.... if your losing money I would suggest not minting them at all, but simple answers would be to mint fewer (start small and remint if neccessary) or feel the design out and see if it appeals to potential customers... however, if you are worried about either of those then again I ask "why mint coins for resale?"

 

it seems having them readily available to potential customers can only help you in the long run, If someone comes to your site and sees them available then they may be back in a day/week or two to purchase. If they see they are sold out or only available through pre-sales then they may not return.

 

As stated before it's a risk you take as a producer of coins. I don't think that risk should be on your customers through pre-sales and financing your coins before they are minted.

 

it works on the same principle that nobody should buy a bottle of wine before the grapes are picked or buy a burger while the cow is still grazing....

[+AtwellFamily]

...No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor)...

What makes geocoins so different?

 

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

Those numbers seem pretty high. I have been doing reservations (take order but no money) for 3 years now and the most I got stuck with was 10% and that was because a large order backed out. On average I have 3-4 people that back out which under 5% of the orders. I can easily sell the rest in the open market and events.

 

... How many times have we watched vendors here (even ones who were considered reliable) take the money and run? Definitely more than once, twice or three times.

 

If you engage in buying on a presale, don't whine or throw a fit down the road when your money gets taken because you're only engaging in gambling...

 

I guess I have seen this to many times and I see new people here trying pre-sales again and new victims. Some people who burned those in the past are back at it again (pre-sales that is), only time before they take money again (just my opinion).

 

 

I have never paid for a coin via pre-sales. I know I can get it some time if it is that important. I woudl just like to hang unto my money as long as possible.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Atwell Family

[+Manville Possum]

I see a thread right now where it doesn't look like someone is delivery coins. I also see the thread about pre-sales on eBay, and then there are those who have taken money in the past conducting pre-sales again.

 

I am a bit confused...

 

Why do people continue to give their money to unknown strangers that are not willing or can't afford to finance the coins on their own. If they need your money to make the coin, does this not tell you that if something goes wrong it will be a while before you see your money or your coins. And in a numbers of cases recently, neither!

 

1. Can someone tell me why you would give your money to strangers, in hopes that 30-45 days or longer, they will produce a coin with no issues and then send you your order?

 

2. Outside of coins do you do this in other areas of your life, with other strangers that in most cases don't have a business license?

 

Thanks for your help understanding.

Mike

I have to agree with you Mike. I got scammed in a presale along with many other users by the same company that did not have a business license. There is a thread in this forum in the vendors ratings. We have contacted the BBB, IC3 for internet crime, and NOTHING can be done to recover our money. The presale turned out to be a take your money and run, with no futher contact, and shut down the web site.

 

Presales are a bad idea, only do business with known and trusted companys. Check the geocoin vendor feedback threads. Use PayPal and open a dispute before the time limit runs out, use caution when dealing with strangers. Don't get ripped-off like I did! And YES, these same people also use Ebay. Check a sellers ratings and feedback.

[+MustangJoni]

The first two coins I produced myself I did reservation style: I took orders, had the coins minted, and sent invoices once I had the coins in hand. On the first coin, just over 10% of those who reserved a coin backed out. On the second one, nearly 30% backed out. That is a huge number of coins to be left with for a small operation like myself.

 

I now do the presale thing. A few people have commented on threads that they would buy my coin if it wasn't a presale, but for the most part I haven't had complaints. For me the presale isn't because I don't have the money up front. It is a matter of protecting myself from getting stuck with inventory.

 

 

I'll bite...

 

I've got to ask...

 

If you are worried about "getting stuck with inventory" then why are you minting coins for resale anyhow? I would think it was inherant risk for anyone that wanted to mint for resale?

 

Is there an unwritten law that says once minted they must all sell within XX number of days or the minting wasn't a success...?

 

...personally I've never understood the logic behind thinking this way. please explain, and help those like myself understand...

 

I am minting coins because I like designing them. My profit on a sale is pretty slim, so if I'm left with extras because people backed out, then I'll be losing money and will eventually have to stop altogether. If I factor in the time it takes to design the coins, then I really am losing money.

 

For me, coins that don't sell in the initial run rarely ever sell. Period. If people back out on a reservation, I will likely never sell them through my store. I don't know if people just never visit my store except when I announce a presale or what it is (I am fairly far down on the approved vendor list).

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't buy all that...

 

the reason you don't factor in your time should be because you enjoy designing them, you mint them for resale to make $.... The only way you could lose money is through "over minting" or not selling about 1/2 of what you do mint.... if your losing money I would suggest not minting them at all, but simple answers would be to mint fewer (start small and remint if neccessary) or feel the design out and see if it appeals to potential customers... however, if you are worried about either of those then again I ask "why mint coins for resale?"

 

it seems having them readily available to potential customers can only help you in the long run, If someone comes to your site and sees them available then they may be back in a day/week or two to purchase. If they see they are sold out or only available through pre-sales then they may not return.

 

As stated before it's a risk you take as a producer of coins. I don't think that risk should be on your customers through pre-sales and financing your coins before they are minted.

 

it works on the same principle that nobody should buy a bottle of wine before the grapes are picked or buy a burger while the cow is still grazing....

 

You could also try submitting your design to one of the companies. That way, you have no money tied up, and you get some of your coins for free.

[+AtwellFamily]

...it works on the same principle that nobody should buy a bottle of wine before the grapes are picked or buy a burger while the cow is still grazing....

 

Could not have said it better myself.

[+anne.and.eli]

E&C: You might consider other markets for the coins. I find that when sales slow on my website I can usually sell the rest to the ebay crowd. As others mentioned you can also take them to events if you have approval to sell them. I sold some of my coins at our 10-10-10 event. Not huge, but I don't buy huge amounts so it sold out some of my remaining stock.

 

Reservations are a ginormous PITA. But I'd rather do them than a pre-sale. That's too much pressure for me! (Additionally, I like getting the money at the END of all the work, not before you've done it all...)

[+Jackalgirl]

...No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor)...

 

What makes geocoins so different?

 

Shiny metal preciouses. That's the only way I can describe it.

 

I won't comment on the rest; my own philosophy is to do reservations only. An exception to this was (and will be) the Mini-Doubloon project. I do ask for money up front for those, but only when we're ready to actually place the order (after all the designing and stuff is done). So anyone whose heart really isn't in it can back out at any time up to that point.

 

Could I pay for the whole order up front and collect money when they're ready to ship? Probably. For project coins, though, I'd rather not. They're highly personalized and I'm not sure how successful they'd be if I had a handful of, say, "Schmuckcacher" doubloons that Schmuckcacher decided not to pay for. I am liable to think that people (other than rabid coin collectors) would rather have their own personal coins, and not someone else's.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Jackalgirl

[+MustangJoni]

...No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor)...

 

What makes geocoins so different?

 

Shiny metal preciouses. That's the only way I can describe it.

 

I won't comment on the rest; my own philosophy is to do reservations only. An exception to this was (and will be) the Mini-Doubloon project. I do ask for money up front for those, but only when we're ready to actually place the order (after all the designing and stuff is done). So anyone whose heart really isn't in it can back out at any time up to that point.

 

Could I pay for the whole order up front and collect money when they're ready to ship? Probably. For project coins, though, I'd rather not. They're highly personalized and I'm not sure how successful they'd be if I had a handful of, say, "Schmuckcacher" doubloons that Schmuckcacher decided not to pay for. I am liable to think that people (other than rabid coin collectors) would rather have their own personal coins, and not someone else's.

 

Project coins are a different ballgame. I would always expect to pay for personalized coins in advance.

[+LionsLair]

...No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor)...

 

What makes geocoins so different?

 

Shiny metal preciouses. That's the only way I can describe it.

 

I won't comment on the rest; my own philosophy is to do reservations only. An exception to this was (and will be) the Mini-Doubloon project. I do ask for money up front for those, but only when we're ready to actually place the order (after all the designing and stuff is done). So anyone whose heart really isn't in it can back out at any time up to that point.

 

Could I pay for the whole order up front and collect money when they're ready to ship? Probably. For project coins, though, I'd rather not. They're highly personalized and I'm not sure how successful they'd be if I had a handful of, say, "Schmuckcacher" doubloons that Schmuckcacher decided not to pay for. I am liable to think that people (other than rabid coin collectors) would rather have their own personal coins, and not someone else's.

 

 

This point about project coins I understand, when ordering individualized custom work, a pre-sale is the only way a coin producer has to protect themselves from "Schmuckcacher" not paying for something they asked to be minted, but IMHO this should be the only exception to "pre-sales"

[+AtwellFamily]

...No, I wouldn't buy other goods this way, generally speaking (I guess it depends on the product and the vendor)...

 

What makes geocoins so different?

 

Shiny metal preciouses. That's the only way I can describe it.

 

I won't comment on the rest; my own philosophy is to do reservations only. An exception to this was (and will be) the Mini-Doubloon project. I do ask for money up front for those, but only when we're ready to actually place the order (after all the designing and stuff is done). So anyone whose heart really isn't in it can back out at any time up to that point.

 

Could I pay for the whole order up front and collect money when they're ready to ship? Probably. For project coins, though, I'd rather not. They're highly personalized and I'm not sure how successful they'd be if I had a handful of, say, "Schmuckcacher" doubloons that Schmuckcacher decided not to pay for. I am liable to think that people (other than rabid coin collectors) would rather have their own personal coins, and not someone else's.

Wouldn't expect you to fund a group project. I haven't done that either. I take money up front for a personal coin project like that. I got burned once and it won't happen again. Someone told me they were in and that the money would be sent next week so I placed the order. Never got paid but got stuck with personal coins.

 

Bad situation!

[+scavok]

I guess this thread may be why I got so many paypal disputes this week j/k.

 

I guess I'm one of few, but I still presell. I presell a LOT, and do it successfully. Nothing ever goes 100% according to plan, sometimes a minting takes longer than expected, but I have never had a single dispute I haven't been able to work out by communicating with the buyer.

 

I presell because I like to keep my geocoin money completely separate from my personal money. I do have personal funds available if something were to go wrong, but involving a single penny of my personal money just doesn't happen (sorry). Just like I hope my customers realize that using a single penny of presale money for personal use is unjustifiable. The money even has its own account - I don't let the funds sit in a paypal account (nobody should ever store money there). When the seller is reputable, the presale process protects both parties due to this separation - this is why i presell.

 

I personally call and verbally speak with paypal reps to verify that I meet their standards and they occasionally call me to check in as well. I have a good relationship with them. In handling ~500 orders for coins every couple months, I have more issues with the post office than I ever do with paypal

 

I have good communication with my customers in responding to them as well as posting in the forums and on my website with information as I receive it. When news is bad (like a delay) I don't just ignore emails; I post the info before people even need to wonder.

 

By all means, common sense and caution should be used when buying items on the internet, or anywhere for that matter. Talk to the seller before you order, check their reputation and absolutely verify their forms of communication (I don't even use a P.O. box as a seller).

 

I don't consider this my profession by any means. When I show up at the post office with 4 or 5 of their white tubs full of padded mailers I just tell them its a hobby that has gotten out of control . But I am an accomplished art student, computer science student, was a webmaster for an ISP in Denver, and ran my own business for a number of years before going for a 3rd round of school. I'm not just some random guy trying to hock stuff on the interweb.

 

It is not my intention to say that I am better than anyone else. The only thing I am trying to get across is that there ARE GOOD pre-sellers out there, and I hope somebody else backs up this opinion.

[+Chokecherry]

As a buyer I'm fine with reserving a coin but I'm not handing money over without the product in stock and on its way.

 

I'm sure there are good pre-sellers out there but there's no way at all to weed them out from the bad ones.