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A sad day


jeepdelfuego

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Today was a sad day because the Anza Borrego park has asked the Hemet Jeep Club to remove Metered Exposure. The Eco-Nazi's have succeded once again in closing more trails. Anza Borrego has stolen 1/2 of Truckhaven from us and they are in the process of getting rid of all geocaches there. So, I will be the last person to log a find for this geocache, what a shame!

 

RIP GC18AY3

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Are all the caches being removed from the area? I didn't look at all the nearby caches, but none of them have logs that indicate that they are being asked to be archived. After reading the cache page and logs, I'm inclined to think that this likely a parking meter that has been cemented into the rocks. Am I correct? If so, that should be reason enough to be told to remove it.

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I'm confused - are they banning the jeeps too?

 

Yes, they gave us special permission to go out there and remove our geocache. The Rangers are in the process of putting out road closure signs. They asked us, a Jeep Club, to help them with that. Why would we we want to close Jeep trails that have been used since the late 1940's?????

Edited by jeepdelfuego
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I'm confused - are they banning the jeeps too?

 

Yes, they gave us special permission to go out there and remove our geocache. The Rangers are in the process of putting out road closure signs. They asked us, a Jeep Club, to help them with that. Why would we would we want to close Jeep trails that have been used since the late 1940's?????

 

Just a wild guess... ecological impact?

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I'm confused - are they banning the jeeps too?

 

Yes, they gave us special permission to go out there and remove our geocache. The Rangers are in the process of putting out road closure signs. They asked us, a Jeep Club, to help them with that. Why would we would we want to close Jeep trails that have been used since the late 1940's?????

 

Just a wild guess... ecological impact?

I doubt it. The pressure governments are getting from environmentalist groups to close all areas to motorized and other forms of recreation. The environmentalists tend to go to the extreme that blocks access to hunters fishermen and even hikers. We all have a stake in what is happening through out the country on we will all loose as a result of the environmentalist deep pockets and organizational skills. If these trails have been around since the 1940's I am sure that if any damage has been done chances are they aren't going to reverse it. Management of the lands is the best way to keep it open for all to enjoy. Not just the environmentalist. People need to educate them selves and become aware of whats going on in their part of the country as far as land access of state and federal land. You may be surprised how much has already been closed and how much is slated for closure. These closures have hurt communities who rely on the money that these closed areas bring in in the form of recreation.

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I'm confused - are they banning the jeeps too?

 

Yes, they gave us special permission to go out there and remove our geocache. The Rangers are in the process of putting out road closure signs. They asked us, a Jeep Club, to help them with that. Why would we would we want to close Jeep trails that have been used since the late 1940's?????

 

Just a wild guess... ecological impact?

I doubt it. The pressure governments are getting from environmentalist groups to close all areas to motorized and other forms of recreation. The environmentalists tend to go to the extreme that blocks access to hunters fishermen and even hikers. We all have a stake in what is happening through out the country on we will all loose as a result of the environmentalist deep pockets and organizational skills. If these trails have been around since the 1940's I am sure that if any damage has been done chances are they aren't going to reverse it. Management of the lands is the best way to keep it open for all to enjoy. Not just the environmentalist. People need to educate them selves and become aware of whats going on in their part of the country as far as land access of state and federal land. You may be surprised how much has already been closed and how much is slated for closure. These closures have hurt communities who rely on the money that these closed areas bring in in the form of recreation.

 

Oh, it's those darn "environmentalists" again. Gotcha.

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I'm confused - are they banning the jeeps too?

 

Yes, they gave us special permission to go out there and remove our geocache. The Rangers are in the process of putting out road closure signs. They asked us, a Jeep Club, to help them with that. Why would we would we want to close Jeep trails that have been used since the late 1940's?????

 

Just a wild guess... ecological impact?

I doubt it. The pressure governments are getting from environmentalist groups to close all areas to motorized and other forms of recreation. The environmentalists tend to go to the extreme that blocks access to hunters fishermen and even hikers. We all have a stake in what is happening through out the country on we will all loose as a result of the environmentalist deep pockets and organizational skills. If these trails have been around since the 1940's I am sure that if any damage has been done chances are they aren't going to reverse it. Management of the lands is the best way to keep it open for all to enjoy. Not just the environmentalist. People need to educate them selves and become aware of whats going on in their part of the country as far as land access of state and federal land. You may be surprised how much has already been closed and how much is slated for closure. These closures have hurt communities who rely on the money that these closed areas bring in in the form of recreation.

 

Oh, it's those darn "environmentalists" again. Gotcha.

No just the misguided environmentalist. I protect the environment as much as any one. But I also understand the impact that TOTAL closure has on the economy. As a tax payer who pays for public lands I would like to be able to continue to have access. I would like to see my children and grandchildren be able to enjoy the public lands as well. Everybody has their own opinions and I guess you have to get out their and see what is happening to decide what you believe is the best course of action. I have been heavily involved in our area trying to keep access open and it's sad what has been happening. I don't just fight for motorized access as I am an avid hunter and fisherman.

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...I'm inclined to think that this likely a parking meter that has been cemented into the rocks.

No, that can't be true. That would be a moronic violation of the guidelines, and we know geocachers never break those.

Especially in areas where groups that are less than friendly to us might be watching and taking notes.

[/sarcasm]

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We heard that they were doing studies out there to close that area. I know the eco-group was out there video recording people just climbing up hills and creating NEW trails. That had a lot to do with the impact study. It's a shame the area is really cool and there is a lot to see out there. Glad we were able to see the beauty before they closed the area. Truly a sad day. :rolleyes:<_<

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This has been going on for well over two years, ABSP not allowing caches within their boundries. I'm not familiar with the new area that has been aquired by them in the north, but the southern part of their managed area close to the 8 has been like this for quite a while. Yes, you will still see a few hold-over caches still in that area, but is a small number compared to what used to be placed. Funny thing is they still allow street legal vehicles on their trails in most of the places that caches where placed?

 

As a side note, the area just below the newly aquired lands OWSVRA, is extremely cacher friendly, they even host an annual event for caching Roughneck.

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As a side note, the area just below the newly aquired lands OWSVRA, is extremely cacher friendly, they even host an annual event for caching Roughneck.

 

I missed it last year, but I understand that the park rangers place the caches for the event and then take them down. The bulk of the caches are never actually published. That keeps the impact to a bare minimum.

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As a side note, the area just below the newly aquired lands OWSVRA, is extremely cacher friendly, they even host an annual event for caching Roughneck.

 

I missed it last year, but I understand that the park rangers place the caches for the event and then take them down. The bulk of the caches are never actually published. That keeps the impact to a bare minimum.

 

Yes, a number of the caches are "Event Only" to further whatever the focus of the year's event theme is, and are not published. But, normally there are a number of caches that stay, not to mention the ones placed by the Staff through the year.

 

But OWSVRA is a cache-dense area anyhow, if you enjoy off-roading and caching it can be a fun place. I just made mention of them to show the contrast to their neighbors {ABSP} and as an alternative to ABSP as they start aquiring more land.

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Today was a sad day because the Anza Borrego park has asked the Hemet Jeep Club to remove Metered Exposure. The Eco-Nazi's have succeded once again in closing more trails. Anza Borrego has stolen 1/2 of Truckhaven from us and they are in the process of getting rid of all geocaches there. So, I will be the last person to log a find for this geocache, what a shame!

 

RIP GC18AY3

 

Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

It also says a lot about the strength of your argument - someone with intelligence and a good argument argues the facts instead of calling people they disagree with Nazis.

 

When I read your log for the cache also calling people Nazis, I agree with their decision to close down the area. Why would any land manager want to allow caching when there are users who if they don't get their way call people Nazis? What land manager would consider someone like this (and those ORVs riders who ignored this comment) responsible users? If a land manager wanted to not allow caching, they could use your log as a good reason to not allow it.

 

I've been chased in a canoe by ORVs. I've seen many of the places I used to enjoy going to destroyed by ORVs. I've been almost ran over by illegal ORV riders multiple times. I have friends who have been assulted by illegal ORV riders. I've seen countless places where ORVs have defied the rules and caused massive devastation by creating new hill climbs. I know many people who have had ORVs trespass and tear up their private property. But I do NOT think ORV riders are Hitler or Nazis.

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In my younger, wilder, less responsible life I used to be an avid ORV aficionado. Fortunately, in my part of the world, there are more miles of logging roads than paved roads. However, it seemed that many offroaders that I became acquainted with preferred more “challenging” routes that disregarded private roads, environmentally sensitive areas and decommissioned roads. In addition, most of the organized offroad expeditions that I participated in seemed to be an excuse to "party hearty" and were fueled by beer and loud music.

 

As a result, more and more public lands have become off-limits to ORV’s and, now that I’m older and (hopefully) a bit wiser, I fully understand and support the restrictions on ORV’s that have been necessary to put into place. The most irksome trait I’ve come to discover about offroader’s is their sense of entitlement and their disdain toward anyone who disagrees with their “right” to tear up the back country. I’ve had more than one back country camping trip ruined by offroaders showing up at a campsite en masse, cranking up the tunes, disregarding the campfire restrictions and subjecting everyone else to their drunken, rowdy behavior. :unsure:

 

I don’t agree that being a taxpayer gives one the right to do whatever they want in a park or on crown land any more than being a taxpayer gives you the right to do whatever you want in the city. If bad behavior on the part of any special interest group causes restrictions aimed at those groups then, too bad.

 

Personally, I’m very happy about the restrictions being placed on offroad vehicles in our forests and parks. I think there should be more areas preserved from motorized vehicles.

 

I guess that makes me a Nazi in your eyes? ;)

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This isn't really about geocaching, is it? It would appear that you are actually more upset about the ban on off-road driving, of which geocaching is just one part... the part that you can use here to validate your thread.

 

Actually, I do understand your frustration and disappointment. I did my share of off-roading years ago, and loved it. I think what we are seeing is the same sort of extremes, divisiveness and unwillingness to compromise that is causing people to get fed up with our government. Sorry for your loss... really I am, but there is also plenty to be gained in letting an area return to wilderness. We have had a somewhat similar situation here in Minnesota between power-boaters and canoe/kayak enthusiasts in the Boundary Canoe Waters.

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That's the way things are. It's always the minority that takes liberties with the lack of direct supervision and abuses what we've been given access to. When the few ORV users tear up an area, it gets closed to everyone, often inclusive of hikers, bikers and equestrians. Most geocachers I know or have seen in action, are not any better. I have seen grassy areas dug up to hide a cache, I have seen objects cemented to rocks, and I have seen delicate flora stomped into pulp all in the name of geocaching. Once a cache is placed, people do not take the trail that is already there, they create a new trail taking the most direct and more importantly, the most destructive path to a destination. Trails are there for a reason. There are threads with people complaining about some forest/park areas charging for or heaven forbid, not allowing cache placement. With the budget cuts for administration of our recreation areas, how can anyone not expect additional fees or additional closures to protect our favorite areas? I do what I can whenever I am places participating in either (both usually at the same time) activity to make us look better to the powers that be by picking up after the last person to come before me. Ask yourself... When was the last time you stopped while on a trail ride or geocaching to pick up a bag of trash or a discarded tire from beside your favorite trail and disposed of it properly? We have the right to visit and enjoy the places we like to recreate in. We do not have the right to do whatever we want with them.

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Today was a sad day because the Anza Borrego park has asked the Hemet Jeep Club to remove Metered Exposure. The Eco-Nazi's have succeded once again in closing more trails. Anza Borrego has stolen 1/2 of Truckhaven from us and they are in the process of getting rid of all geocaches there. So, I will be the last person to log a find for this geocache, what a shame!

 

RIP GC18AY3

 

Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

It also says a lot about the strength of your argument - someone with intelligence and a good argument argues the facts instead of calling people they disagree with Nazis.

 

When I read your log for the cache also calling people Nazis, I agree with their decision to close down the area. Why would any land manager want to allow caching when there are users who if they don't get their way call people Nazis? What land manager would consider someone like this (and those ORVs riders who ignored this comment) responsible users? If a land manager wanted to not allow caching, they could use your log as a good reason to not allow it.

 

I've been chased in a canoe by ORVs. I've seen many of the places I used to enjoy going to destroyed by ORVs. I've been almost ran over by illegal ORV riders multiple times. I have friends who have been assulted by illegal ORV riders. I've seen countless places where ORVs have defied the rules and caused massive devastation by creating new hill climbs. I know many people who have had ORVs trespass and tear up their private property. But I do NOT think ORV riders are Hitler or Nazis.

 

thank you so much for this eloquent reply.

This reply and the one after it by the alien Gorak, who seems to care about the wilderness here more than many who LIVE on this planet, make me feel better among the ranks of these cachers.

I was trying to come up with a reply, but these two said it better than I could have.

Thank you!

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It is interesting how closures create a vicious cycle. State parks are being closed due to budget pressures. Then, the State has a ballot initiative to add a tax for the ostensible purpose of keeping the parks open. We, of course, do not really believe the new tax will keep the parks open. We figure that while the money from the new tax may go to the park system, at least for a while, the government will take other money from the parks and close them anyway. So, we vote against the tax. And, the government closes the park. Then it asks for money to keep parks open. And, we don't trust the government to keep the parks open.

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As an ORV enthusiast I understand the frustration of seeing trails that you have used LEGALLY (hopefully) for years closed. It is very sad that a small minority of inconsiderate riders have to ruin the sport for those of us that respect the land use rules. I would propose that we add stricter penalties for those few that choose to go off the designated trails. Perhaps their vehicles can be impounded and they can be given a huge fine, maybe even jail time. Here in Michigan I believe they get up to a 500 dollar fine if caugtht going off designated trails. This is not enough of a fine in my opinion since these rude riders make us legal riders look bad! Another problem is that, just like with geocaching, ORV riding has become very popular in recent years. It is up to those of us that engage in these sports to help educate others about how to share the public lands so that everyone from the backcountry hiker/geocacher to the dirt biker can enjoy our beautiful parks and forests. I'm all for having designated wildnerness areas. We have some really gorgeous wildnerness areas in Michigan that are off limits to motor vehicles, and as a backpacker, I'm all for that - we need those too! However, I don't want to see the amazing ORV routes and ATV trails that my family has used for years closed. I think the OP was upset about losing an ORV trail and a cool geocache that has been around for years due to the knee jerk reactions of a few. I can see the environmentalists going after people driving off designated trails. They just need to leave the already established ORV trails alone. We need to share our lands.

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Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

It also says a lot about the strength of your argument - someone with intelligence and a good argument argues the facts instead of calling people they disagree with Nazis.

 

When I read your log for the cache also calling people Nazis, I agree with their decision to close down the area. Why would any land manager want to allow caching when there are users who if they don't get their way call people Nazis? What land manager would consider someone like this (and those ORVs riders who ignored this comment) responsible users? If a land manager wanted to not allow caching, they could use your log as a good reason to not allow it.

 

I can sympathize with your sentiments, but to be fair calling someone a xyz-nazi has kind of entered the english vernacular... as popularized by the seinfeld soup-nazi. I haven't done any research... what is the official reason for closing off the area? Environmental impact?

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Welcome to California. Everything will be owned and run by the government, for the government before long here. It's a police (read: nanny) state that knows how to live our lives and spend our monies better than we do. Apparently, it also knows how to use our lands better than we do. Good thing we showed up in the voters booths earlier this month and really shook things up by re-electing EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN re-running for a major office this term...

 

I'm a good job short of being out of here. Thank God.

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Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

It also says a lot about the strength of your argument - someone with intelligence and a good argument argues the facts instead of calling people they disagree with Nazis.

 

When I read your log for the cache also calling people Nazis, I agree with their decision to close down the area. Why would any land manager want to allow caching when there are users who if they don't get their way call people Nazis? What land manager would consider someone like this (and those ORVs riders who ignored this comment) responsible users? If a land manager wanted to not allow caching, they could use your log as a good reason to not allow it.

 

I can sympathize with your sentiments, but to be fair calling someone a xyz-nazi has kind of entered the english vernacular... as popularized by the seinfeld soup-nazi. I haven't done any research... what is the official reason for closing off the area? Environmental impact?

 

The same can be said about racial slurs. Do you condone thier use? Are you saying it is ok to start a forum discussion calling people you don't agree with nazis?

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Today was a sad day because the Anza Borrego park has asked the Hemet Jeep Club to remove Metered Exposure. The Eco-Nazi's have succeded once again in closing more trails. Anza Borrego has stolen 1/2 of Truckhaven from us and they are in the process of getting rid of all geocaches there. So, I will be the last person to log a find for this geocache, what a shame!

 

RIP GC18AY3

 

Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

 

First of all, the statement that I made does not say anything about me other than the fact that I am upset that misguided environmentalists have once again closed another trail. As for insinuating that I have insulted your two uncles, that is non-sense too. As for passing a history test, I have passed many. Did you know the following:

 

Admiration of nature was a strong theme of the German Nazi party and the Wagnerian German romanticism that predated it, and is also a key issue for some modern fascist movements. The Nazi government also investigated sustainable forestry. The Nazis were at the forefront of conservationism, with Nazi Germany having some of the first legally protected wilderness reserves. During their rise to power, the Nazis were supported by German environmentalists and conservationists...

 

The terms Eco-terrorist and Eco-nazi have entered the popular vernacular in the United States, Canada, Australia, and Great Britain. If you mention these terms to anybody, they don't immediately think of Osama Bin Laden or of the Holocaust. People will think of some hippie in Birkenstocks who doesn't eat meat and will rather sacrifice a human for a tree. Not that this have to do with anything; but, did you know that Birkenstocks were invented in Germany too.

 

The Holocaust is the best example of the wickedness of man. Please don't degrade the memory of your uncles and the six million Jews and millions of others who were murdered by the Nazi's by feigning insult in order to change the subject.

 

So, let's bring it back to the subject at hand. A large area of desert is being closed off after being used for over half a century (60+ years) for off-roading. Has it been decimated over this time? No. Does our club enjoy destroying the landscape? No. Does our club run over bambi or big horn sheep? No.

 

We enjoy the outdoors and some of the areas which we frequent are not accessible without a 4 wheel drive vehicle. It doesn't mean that we want a trail going to every inch of the desert or the mountains. We love being some place in the outdoors far from civilization where we can see thousands of stars, and enjoy the company of our friends and family next to a campfire. As for drinking, WE OUTLAW DRINKING for our club runs. If you drink while going out on runs, you get booted out of our club. We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

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We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

There's that sense of entitlement I was talking about... :unsure:

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We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

There's that sense of entitlement I was talking about... :unsure:

Of course we are entitled to use the land. It's always the few that mess everything up for the rest of the offroading community. Your just one of those people that like to label all offroaders as bad users of the land. So narrowed minded. Really sad

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Your just one of those people that like to label all offroaders as bad users of the land. So narrowed minded. Really sad

No, it's just been my experience with offroaders over the past 35 years that the majority of them fit that mold. I know there are also small segments of responsible offroaders, as well. However, bad behaviour by the majority eventually ruins it for all. Life is like that.

 

Your statement above is hypocritical. You claim that I ("one of those people") am generalizing that all offroaders are bad yet at the same time you're generalizing that all people who support vehicle restrictions in the backcountry are "narrow minded". :unsure:;) I suppose it's easier to attack me than my position.... ;)

 

Note the proper usage of your and you're.

Edited by Gorak
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Your just one of those people that like to label all offroaders as bad users of the land. So narrowed minded. Really sad

No, it's just been my experience with offroaders over the past 35 years that the majority of them fit that mold. I'm know there are also small segments of responsible offroaders, as well. However, bad behaviour by the majority eventually ruins it for all. Life is like that.

 

Your statement above is hypocritical. You claim that I ("one of those people") am generalizing that all offroaders are bad yet at the same time you're generalizing that all people who support vehicle restrictions in the backcountry are "narrow minded". B):laughing: I suppose it's easier to attack me than my position.... :P

 

Note the proper usage of your and you're.

Im saying you put a label on offroaders as being bad and thats not true. I never said anything about people who support vehicle restriction as being narrow minded just that YOU are for calling all of us not responsible. Thanks for fixing my typo, smart one. :lol::P:D;):unsure:;)

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Im saying you put a label on offroaders as being bad and thats not true. I never said anything about people who support vehicle restriction as being narrow minded just that YOU are for calling all of us not responsible. Thanks for fixing my typo, smart one. B):P:D;):unsure:;)

Thanks for the clarification. I'll accept the personal slag if you can point out where I stated that all offroaders are irresponsible. I also accept your apology for the personal attack when you cannot find any such statement. :laughing::lol::P:P Like that is ever going to happen! If you think it will further your cause, continue to attack and belittle your detractors. I believe, however, that your real beef is with your compatriots who ruined it for you, not the people who took action against their systemic bad behaviour.

 

At any rate, this topic really has very little to do with geocaching anymore. I'm off to get a new pair of Birkenstocks... B)

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Im saying you put a label on offroaders as being bad and thats not true. I never said anything about people who support vehicle restriction as being narrow minded just that YOU are for calling all of us not responsible. Thanks for fixing my typo, smart one. :P:P:P;):unsure::lol:

Thanks for the clarification. I'll accept the personal slag if you can point out where I stated that all offroaders are irresponsible. I also accept your apology for the personal attack when you cannot find any such statement. B):lol::lol::P Like that is ever going to happen! If you think it will further your cause, continue to attack and belittle your detractors. I believe, however, that your real beef is with your compatriots who ruined it for you, not the people who took action against their systemic bad behaviour.

 

At any rate, this topic really has very little to do with geocaching anymore. I'm off to get a new pair of Birkenstocks... B)

I didn't apologize :lol::P I didn't attack you i was making a statement. Maybe your probe is in a little too far today. ;):lol::DB) You should get some caches instead of some more Birkenstocks :laughing::lol::P

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Admiration of nature was a strong theme of the German Nazi party and the Wagnerian German romanticism that predated it, and is also a key issue for some modern fascist movements. The Nazi government also investigated sustainable forestry. The Nazis were at the forefront of conservationism, with Nazi Germany having some of the first legally protected wilderness reserves. During their rise to power, the Nazis were supported by German environmentalists and conservationists...

 

Source?

 

Nevermind, found it: http://books.google.com.ec/books?id=erLXrJhsk5gC&dq

 

EDIT AGAIN: However, what you've quoted here is out of context and is a misrepresentation of the facts presented in that book:

 

However, environmentalists soon realized that the rhetorical attention that they received from the regime did not always translate into action. By the late 1930s, nature and the environment became less pressing concerns as Nazi Germany prepared and executed its extensive war.

 

Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

Edited by Castle Mischief
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I didn't attack you i was making a statement.

Again, thanks for the clarification. Going forward I'll interpret being called "narrow minded" as a compliment and not a personal slag. :unsure:

 

As for probes, we've recently relegated that task to the TSA. Resistance is futile. ;)

 

;):DB)

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I didn't attack you i was making a statement.

Again, thanks for the clarification. Going forward I'll interpret being called "narrow minded" as a compliment and not a personal slag. ;)

 

As for probes, we've recently relegated that task to the TSA. Resistance is futile. B)

 

:laughing::lol::P

It wasn't a compliment either so take it how you want too. :D:unsure:;)

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Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

It is always easier to attack, insult and attempt to discredit your detractors than it is to address issues. It is an often effective tool to detract and draw attention away from an indefensible position. See how well it has worked in this thread?

Edited by Gorak
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Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

It is always easier to attack, insult and attempt to discredit your detractors than it is to address issues. It is an often effective tool to detract and draw attention away from an indefensible position. See how well it has worked in this thread?

dbl post

Edited by the4dirtydogs
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Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

It is always easier to attack, insult and attempt to discredit your detractors than it is to address issues. It is an often effective tool to detract and draw attention away from an indefensible position. See how well it has worked in this thread?

Thought you were going to get some Birkenstocks. :unsure:;)

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Today was a sad day because the Anza Borrego park has asked the Hemet Jeep Club to remove Metered Exposure. The Eco-Nazi's have succeded once again in closing more trails. Anza Borrego has stolen 1/2 of Truckhaven from us and they are in the process of getting rid of all geocaches there. So, I will be the last person to log a find for this geocache, what a shame!

 

RIP GC18AY3

 

Calling people you don't agree with Nazis says a lot about you. Comparing Nazis to someone who disagrees with you is an insult to the victims of the Nazis. It is an insult to people like my two uncles who were killed fighting the Nazis. When you make these kinds of comparisons, it insults the intelligence of anyone with half a brain that has passed a history test.

 

 

First of all, the statement that I made does not say anything about me other than the fact that I am upset that misguided environmentalists have once again closed another trail. As for insinuating that I have insulted your two uncles, that is non-sense too. As for passing a history test, I have passed many. Did you know the following:

 

Admiration of nature was a strong theme of the German Nazi party and the Wagnerian German romanticism that predated it, and is also a key issue for some modern fascist movements. The Nazi government also investigated sustainable forestry. The Nazis were at the forefront of conservationism, with Nazi Germany having some of the first legally protected wilderness reserves. During their rise to power, the Nazis were supported by German environmentalists and conservationists...

 

The terms Eco-terrorist and Eco-nazi have entered the popular vernacular in the United States, Canada, Australia, and Great Britain. If you mention these terms to anybody, they don't immediately think of Osama Bin Laden or of the Holocaust. People will think of some hippie in Birkenstocks who doesn't eat meat and will rather sacrifice a human for a tree. Not that this have to do with anything; but, did you know that Birkenstocks were invented in Germany too.

 

The Holocaust is the best example of the wickedness of man. Please don't degrade the memory of your uncles and the six million Jews and millions of others who were murdered by the Nazi's by feigning insult in order to change the subject.

 

So, let's bring it back to the subject at hand. A large area of desert is being closed off after being used for over half a century (60+ years) for off-roading. Has it been decimated over this time? No. Does our club enjoy destroying the landscape? No. Does our club run over bambi or big horn sheep? No.

 

We enjoy the outdoors and some of the areas which we frequent are not accessible without a 4 wheel drive vehicle. It doesn't mean that we want a trail going to every inch of the desert or the mountains. We love being some place in the outdoors far from civilization where we can see thousands of stars, and enjoy the company of our friends and family next to a campfire. As for drinking, WE OUTLAW DRINKING for our club runs. If you drink while going out on runs, you get booted out of our club. We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

 

If you would have started your thread calling the people you disagree with "misguided environmentalists" instad of Nazis, that would have complied with the forum guidelines and indicated a reasonable person. Equating someone you disagree with to mass murderers does not indicate a reasonable person to me. It demonstrates ignorance and hate mongering. It says to me the person does not want to have a reasoned discussion-they just want to hate and call people they disagree with offensive names. And you have the gall to claim I am trying to change the subject to avoid the real issues. Well, if you want to have a discussion, don't call the people you disagree with Nazis. You should be apologizing for using offensive language and violating the forum guidelines. Why would someone want to try to have a discussion with someone who equates closing an area to ORVs with murdering 6 million Jews?

 

Do you know that Hitler and Nazis drove jeeps off roads? Does that make you and all ORVers Nazis? Hitler spread his hate by generalizing all Jews as horrible people. Does your generalizations against environmentalists make you a Nazi?

 

Lots of people use racial slurs, do you also condone their use since they are in the popular vernacular?

 

I told you all the experiences I have had with ORVers. Would it be OK for me to start a thread about "ORV terrorists?"

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Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

It is always easier to attack, insult and attempt to discredit your detractors than it is to address issues. It is an often effective tool to detract and draw attention away from an indefensible position. See how well it has worked in this thread?

Thought you were going to get some Birkenstocks. :unsure:;)

Basically, your whole exchange has devolved into bickering at this point.

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Just because the Nazi party tried to bring in some environmentalists into the fold by telling them what they wanted to hear, does not equate Nazis to environmentalists nor does it justify the wholesale usage of the term for any group that does not agree with you.

It is always easier to attack, insult and attempt to discredit your detractors than it is to address issues. It is an often effective tool to detract and draw attention away from an indefensible position. See how well it has worked in this thread?

Thought you were going to get some Birkenstocks. ;);)

Basically, your whole exchange has devolved into bickering at this point.

I was making a joke. :D Isn't the forums about nothing but bickering anyway. :unsure:

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We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

There's that sense of entitlement I was talking about... :unsure:

Of course we are entitled to use the land. It's always the few that mess everything up for the rest of the offroading community. Your just one of those people that like to label all offroaders as bad users of the land. So narrowed minded. Really sad

 

When one of your fellow ORVers started this thread calling people he disagreed with Nazis, you did not object. This seems like a double standard to me.

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We have just over 100 families in our club and have been off-roading in the same areas for the past 61 years. Our group consists of many active and retired firemen, policemen, Marines, and other soldiers, teachers, businessmen and women who are actively involved in the community. Some of these people have fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, & Afghanistan. Do you want to guess what they (we) call the people who wantonly close our trails?

There's that sense of entitlement I was talking about... :unsure:

Of course we are entitled to use the land. It's always the few that mess everything up for the rest of the offroading community. Your just one of those people that like to label all offroaders as bad users of the land. So narrowed minded. Really sad

 

When one of your fellow ORVers started this thread calling people he disagreed with Nazis, you did not object. This seems like a double standard to me.

Why would I object. I thought it was rather funny. Maybe I'm not as uptight as you are. I don't see the double standards. It's always bad when the state takes riding land away in California, we don't have much left. Hope they never take away the Hammers.

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