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Newbies placing caches


kennelbarb

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is a cache that is "too hard to find" a "bad cache"?
IMHO, it depends on why the cache is "too hard to find". Around here, we distinguish between "good evil" hides and "bad evil" hides. Both are extremely difficult to find, but for different reasons. A "bad evil" hide is something like a needle-in-a-haystack hide, such as an acorn with a blinker inside, hidden in a pile of acorns at the base of an oak tree. A "good evil" hide is well camouflaged, so you can look right at it and not recognize it for what it is. With a "good evil" hide, there isn't even a haystack to hide the needle in: after 10 minutes, you've searched "everywhere it could possibly be", and then you're left trying to figure out how and where the CO actually hid it.
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I hate going out after a new cache, spending 60-90 minutes in the woods searching every possible hiding spot within 100 ft of GZ with no luck. Then I come home to discover the the CO has only a few finds to his credit. Today the cache I searched for, had a CO with NO finds at all, not a single one.

 

It'd be really funny if, a newb went out for his 1st find and found this particular cache you couldn't find. :P:lol:

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is a cache that is "too hard to find" a "bad cache"?
IMHO, it depends on why the cache is "too hard to find". Around here, we distinguish between "good evil" hides and "bad evil" hides. Both are extremely difficult to find, but for different reasons. A "bad evil" hide is something like a needle-in-a-haystack hide, such as an acorn with a blinker inside, hidden in a pile of acorns at the base of an oak tree. A "good evil" hide is well camouflaged, so you can look right at it and not recognize it for what it is. With a "good evil" hide, there isn't even a haystack to hide the needle in: after 10 minutes, you've searched "everywhere it could possibly be", and then you're left trying to figure out how and where the CO actually hid it.

 

For me I don't think too hard to find is so much of an issue for making something a bad cache. For me uninspired (bison tube hanging from a pine tree in the middle of a nice forest for example) is more of a mark of a bad hide. Or the nano in a heavily wooded area with bad reception was one I considered to be not that great of a hide. For me if the area can hold a larger cache it should hold a larger cache. But I know not everyone feels the same but if you're going to insist on hiding a tiny cache at least give it some inspiration.

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Groundspead is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups.

<snicker> OK, let's hear it from you overly sensitive types!! </snicker>

 

There are plenty out there, I'm sure they will.

 

P.S. and yes, it was worded that way to be a little bit of a goad. :angry:

One thing the forum regulars have never been accused of is being overly-sensitive. Thick-skinned is more like it.

 

Some regulars however are thin skinned, they summon a power hungry moderator and beg for the thread to be ended. Been there, had that happen (present company excepted).

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Groundspead is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups.

<snicker> OK, let's hear it from you overly sensitive types!! </snicker>

 

There are plenty out there, I'm sure they will.

 

P.S. and yes, it was worded that way to be a little bit of a goad. :angry:

One thing the forum regulars have never been accused of is being overly-sensitive. Thick-skinned is more like it.

 

Some regulars however are thin skinned, they summon a power hungry moderator and beg for the thread to be ended. Been there, had that happen (present company excepted).

 

Our moderators are not power hungry. That is why they are called "moderators". They moderate. How many points did I just earn?

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Groundspead is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups.

<snicker> OK, let's hear it from you overly sensitive types!! </snicker>

 

There are plenty out there, I'm sure they will.

 

P.S. and yes, it was worded that way to be a little bit of a goad. :angry:

One thing the forum regulars have never been accused of is being overly-sensitive. Thick-skinned is more like it.

 

Some regulars however are thin skinned, they summon a power hungry moderator and beg for the thread to be ended. Been there, had that happen (present company excepted).

 

Our moderators are not power hungry. That is why they are called "moderators". They moderate. How many points did I just earn?

 

 

As I posted a few pages ago, I'm overly sensitive (look for the post with the raised hand)

But I still want some tighter guidelines on new cachers hiding caches.

No one should be able to hide a cache if they've never found one. Period.

The best would be to have found at least 50 before you hide one, preferably 100.

People don't get a feel for the game until after 100 caches.

 

Now we'll get all sorts of thick-skinned sorts saying that some new cachers are great hiders.

But the majority AREN'T.

It isn't the old cachers who are out there hiding with I-phones or google maps.

It isn't the old cachers using baggies or garbage bags to hide caches in.

 

I'm glad Groundspeak is looking into people having to take a course before they can hide a cache. That sounds like a great solution.

Then it's about the knowledge, not about the numbers.

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I have almost 300 finds and yes I have hunted quite a few differnet types of hides. Am I ready to hide my first cache? Nope. I feel that I still need more experience since I have gone after what are classed as easy finds to have to go back and look again since I didn't find it the first time. I have had ones classed as much harder and found without much trouble. With this I'm not sure if I would hide a good cache or not. If I hide a cache I want it to be one that people going for it are going to enjoy. Guess I'm being picky but I don't want to have a cache be something of a lemon. I have places in mind for my first but I'll checking these places out during all weather conditions so I have the best of coordinates and also to see if my cache place is a good one at all times.

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Sol seaker, your attitude towards new people is part of the problem! Lighten up a bit. The only thing that you are accomplishing is to get the new people angry because of the way you continually berate their abilities at geocaching. There are a lot of things that you aren't really looking at when you make your statements. If you would take some time to go back through your finds, I'd bet that you'll find a lot of the "old timers" caches have either been archived or flagged for maintenance as they tend to think that they need not do any maintenance on their caches. The other thing that I'll bet you'll notice is that these same guys that you think are the best are the ones that put a micro every 528 feet on a sign or a lamp post so they can inflate numbers. The cachers like you that are so in to your own numbers are the ones in here complaining about how my newbie cache had you looking for a whole 15 minutes (because it was actually hidden in a spot other than a lamp post, as there are no lamp posts in the woods) and you're angry because you couldn't move on to so and so's power cache route to inflate your numbers. Like I said before, a certain percentage of people will be murderes, thieves, and bad cache hiders. You might be one of them! My first hide is in the woods and it'll take about 20-30 minutes to get it. I guarantee that there's someone in my area that won't do it because it'll take too long and they won't get enough finds that day if they stop for mine! It's not the new guys that complain about length of time it takes to get a find, it's the guys that have been around for a while. I'll enjoy the woods and the scenery and 3-5 caches a day, you go for your LPC's and nano's ona sign to inflate your numbers, just quit complaining about the new people. We're all tired of hearing it!

 

IBTL! lol

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Groundspeak is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I'm positive that many new cachers hide great caches and many old time cachers hide crummy caches. I'm also equally sure that many iphone users have good logging etiquette and plenty of GPS users type "tftc" or the like, only. It's just more likely for certain types of cachers to have certain annoying habits. A new cacher is absolutely going to make more mistakes in several ways. A rookie in anything is more likely too. I don't understand what is hard to understand about that fact of life. People should just accept it and quit taking offense to it. If you are one of the exceptions, then kudo's to you. You are the exception, not the rule.

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I agree ! I'm new and I made a couple of mistakes yesterday, I went out today in the cold rain and snow and found one out of three (all day) I learned my lesson FAST ! I'm 61 years old and have been around the block (several) times over, so I learn fast. I can understand how people can get mad about Newbies BUT - It is (a game!) if They want to solve the problem - JUST DON'T GO LOOKING FOR CACHES THAT NEWBIES PLACE - (REAL SIMPLE ! ! DHA !) THAT WAS EAST ! ! ! !

Edited by msun3
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As I have only been caching for less than a month, and placed my first cache out approximately 1 week ago, I think I qualify as a newbie. Reading through this thread it's obvious that there are a few who would insist that I shouldn't yet be placing caches.

 

To that I would say that I visited my first site a number of times to assess it's potential as a hiding place and also to try and ascertain who owned the land. I then wrote to the landowner giving a brief outline of what Geocaching was all about, provided a link to the Geocaching website and outlined my proposal for which I was seeking permission.

 

Having received his permission I visited the site again to finalise my choice of hiding place, to take readings to determine an average and to take photos for possible inclusion in the listing. Having put the cache together, I finally returned to actually place the hide, and to also take more readings.

 

Having put the listing together, with a brief history of the site and additional notes with regard to parking, I submitted it for review. In the notes to the reviewer I gave details of the landowner and his contact number as well as highlighting that according to my research, the nearest existing cache was over a mile away.

 

The cache is in a small parkland that is easily overlooked by anyone not local to the area and I hope that it is a pleasant spot for anyone to visit. The cache is not just a clip lock box just tucked behind the nearest tree, but I have tried to put some thought in to the actual hiding place. I drive past the park on an almost daily basis, so maintenance should never be a problem (one of my pet hates - poorly maintained caches.)

 

The first person to find the cache says it is the best they have ever found (OK they are relatively new too, and haven't actually found many) so I am hopeful that others will enjoy it too. It's not a challenging cache by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd like to think that it fits the ethos of getting people out in to parts of the community that they might not otherwise visit, and gives them a fairly easy find (reward?) when they get there.

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I'm one of those ones that recommends that newbies wait awhile before placing a cache. Here's my reasons:

  • Container choice. The more caches you find, the more you realize how many environmental factors affect a container. Some containers don't do well in sun, rain, cold, or around animals.
  • Location choice. The more caches you've found the more you learn creative ways to hide caches. You also learn tricks to keep caches out of the hands of muggles.
  • The impulsive personality types. How many times have we seen a cacher enamored by Geocaching and dive in with both feet only to burn out after a few months when some other activity catches their eye? I see a lot of abandoned caches left by these individuals. Placing caches is for someone in it for the long haul.

Have new cachers placed good hides? Absolutely.

Have old-timers placed bad caches? Absolutely.

Do we see more issues with caches placed by newbies? Absolutely.

 

Do I wish newbies were banned from placing cache? Nope, but I'll continue to urge them to wait until they've developed some field experience before placing their first cache.

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As I have only been caching for less than a month, and placed my first cache out approximately 1 week ago, I think I qualify as a newbie. Reading through this thread it's obvious that there are a few who would insist that I shouldn't yet be placing caches.

 

To that I would say that I visited my first site a number of times to assess it's potential as a hiding place and also to try and ascertain who owned the land. I then wrote to the landowner giving a brief outline of what Geocaching was all about, provided a link to the Geocaching website and outlined my proposal for which I was seeking permission.

 

Having received his permission I visited the site again to finalise my choice of hiding place, to take readings to determine an average and to take photos for possible inclusion in the listing. Having put the cache together, I finally returned to actually place the hide, and to also take more readings.

 

Having put the listing together, with a brief history of the site and additional notes with regard to parking, I submitted it for review. In the notes to the reviewer I gave details of the landowner and his contact number as well as highlighting that according to my research, the nearest existing cache was over a mile away.

 

The cache is in a small parkland that is easily overlooked by anyone not local to the area and I hope that it is a pleasant spot for anyone to visit. The cache is not just a clip lock box just tucked behind the nearest tree, but I have tried to put some thought in to the actual hiding place. I drive past the park on an almost daily basis, so maintenance should never be a problem (one of my pet hates - poorly maintained caches.)

 

The first person to find the cache says it is the best they have ever found (OK they are relatively new too, and haven't actually found many) so I am hopeful that others will enjoy it too. It's not a challenging cache by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd like to think that it fits the ethos of getting people out in to parts of the community that they might not otherwise visit, and gives them a fairly easy find (reward?) when they get there.

 

Great job! Sounds like you have a handle on things.

 

Now compare this what I saw in the last week. Account is created on 1/29. 1/30, they hide their first cache, (with 0 finds). Cache description says, "cache is a garbage bag, off the side of the trail. I posted a NA, (not because I wanted it archived, but because I wanted to bring it to the reviewers attention), saying that a garbage bag is not a cache and as cachers we should be removing garbage from the hills, not adding it. I also noted that the cache is rated 3/3, yet appears to be in a houses front yard. CO puts a temp disable noting that the coords are wrong and that there is an actual container and the garbage bag is to keep it dry, (doesn't work). He also blanks out the entire description. Meanwhile, several others try to turn the cache page into a message forum by reaming me for comments, which shows their lack of understanding of the guidelines.

Edited by Don_J
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Sol seaker, your attitude towards new people is part of the problem! Lighten up a bit. The only thing that you are accomplishing is to get the new people angry because of the way you continually berate their abilities at geocaching. There are a lot of things that you aren't really looking at when you make your statements. If you would take some time to go back through your finds, I'd bet that you'll find a lot of the "old timers" caches have either been archived or flagged for maintenance as they tend to think that they need not do any maintenance on their caches. The other thing that I'll bet you'll notice is that these same guys that you think are the best are the ones that put a micro every 528 feet on a sign or a lamp post so they can inflate numbers. The cachers like you that are so in to your own numbers are the ones in here complaining about how my newbie cache had you looking for a whole 15 minutes (because it was actually hidden in a spot other than a lamp post, as there are no lamp posts in the woods) and you're angry because you couldn't move on to so and so's power cache route to inflate your numbers. Like I said before, a certain percentage of people will be murderes, thieves, and bad cache hiders. You might be one of them! My first hide is in the woods and it'll take about 20-30 minutes to get it. I guarantee that there's someone in my area that won't do it because it'll take too long and they won't get enough finds that day if they stop for mine! It's not the new guys that complain about length of time it takes to get a find, it's the guys that have been around for a while. I'll enjoy the woods and the scenery and 3-5 caches a day, you go for your LPC's and nano's ona sign to inflate your numbers, just quit complaining about the new people. We're all tired of hearing it!

 

IBTL! lol

I am amused by the fact that you joined the game before Sol seaker. :)

 

Sol seaker did start finding caches before you though. ;)

 

You make some valid points regarding the quality of caches and their maintenance. I will posit that more seasoned cachers do a better job of maintaining their caches than do those who place caches in their first month or two.

 

The real topic here, in my opinion, is that new cachers have a very high dropout rate and, in general, really should not be placing caches. There are always going to be exceptions but the standard advice is solid and well founded based on the first ten years of our game.

 

I would not advocate for any rules regarding who can place caches but I will strongly suggest that the game would be better off if no caches were placed by any cacher who has not been actively caching for at least one year.

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Sol seaker, your attitude towards new people is part of the problem! Lighten up a bit. The only thing that you are accomplishing is to get the new people angry because of the way you continually berate their abilities at geocaching. There are a lot of things that you aren't really looking at when you make your statements. If you would take some time to go back through your finds, I'd bet that you'll find a lot of the "old timers" caches have either been archived or flagged for maintenance as they tend to think that they need not do any maintenance on their caches. The other thing that I'll bet you'll notice is that these same guys that you think are the best are the ones that put a micro every 528 feet on a sign or a lamp post so they can inflate numbers. The cachers like you that are so in to your own numbers are the ones in here complaining about how my newbie cache had you looking for a whole 15 minutes (because it was actually hidden in a spot other than a lamp post, as there are no lamp posts in the woods) and you're angry because you couldn't move on to so and so's power cache route to inflate your numbers. Like I said before, a certain percentage of people will be murderes, thieves, and bad cache hiders. You might be one of them! My first hide is in the woods and it'll take about 20-30 minutes to get it. I guarantee that there's someone in my area that won't do it because it'll take too long and they won't get enough finds that day if they stop for mine! It's not the new guys that complain about length of time it takes to get a find, it's the guys that have been around for a while. I'll enjoy the woods and the scenery and 3-5 caches a day, you go for your LPC's and nano's ona sign to inflate your numbers, just quit complaining about the new people. We're all tired of hearing it!

 

IBTL! lol

From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

 

If you cannot post constructively and respectfully, don't post. Thank you.

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You're right Keystone, I had some unconstructive comments in my post. I do believe that there were some constructive comments as well. I am trying to get across (without succes) that we shouldn't beat down the new guys. We're trying (I consider my self new as I started this 2 years before I actually had my first find, kids weren't ready yet) to become constructive, accomplished, and productive members of geocaching and this forum. I feel that time and time again, the new guys are being halted in the forums because someone with more posts gets upset that they aren't siding with them (in this specific case). I am trying to defend the little guy (and not being constructive about it, I realize that now), but it seems that nobody cares about them. When a debate that starts out with this topic opens, how can the newbie possibly defend himself? If we disconnect ourselves from the thread and look at both sides (newbie and veteran cachers) there are valid arguing points on both sides, yet the veterans are allowed to express theirs without any issues. When the new guy steps in, this happens. I felt offended by many of these posts, yet I do believe that we all have valid points that should be discussed. I guess what I'm asking for is a bit more support for the new guy. After all, we will be the verteran cacher soon! In any case, this isn't helping out with the topic, so I'd like to end it and start with the main topic. Thanks for taking the time to listen. I know it's not easy.

 

 

Everyone in this hobby can have a good or bad hide, good or bad container, or good or bad coordinates. The advent of the cellphone GPS certainly isn't helping, especially with the new crowd. It's giving cachers the false pretense that they are doing good. I have a GPS. I also have an iphone. I have the geocache app on it. When I go to a cache (using my GPS) and I pull out my iPhone, you wouldn't believe how far off it is. We aren't talking a few feet. The closest I have ever been with my iPhone is .006N off and .001W. Ridiculous. Now we can look at the newbie cacher that downloaded this app from Groundspeak, paying their $10 for it and place blame on them, but part of the blame should be on the app. Why would you put a product out that is so inferior to the real deal? I guess you have to start somewhere, and seemed like a good starting point.

 

Secondly, I have to wonder which GPS people are using? Maybe my GPS gets better recpetion then others. Maybe conditions were better on the day I went caching and I got better reception than the hider. I guess my point is that when you first started geocaching, most people didn't run out and buy the absolute best GPS available. They bought a cheap model to see if they would stick with it, then upgraded when they knew they were in it for the long haul. Could this be the reason for a lot of the poor newbie hides? It might be.

 

If we take a look back at some of the original geocaches, and walk out to that cahe with a new GPS, I'd bet that the original coordinates are quite a bit off. I think as technology has gotten better, this has allowed for greater accuracy. If we couple that with the low end beginner GPS, this could be causing this situation. I state this because I upgraded my GPS. When I hold it with my old GPS and 2 other new GPS's, the only one that reads any different is my beginner GPS. In fact, if you lok at my first cache, you'll notice that I updated my coordinates because they were off a tad.

 

In retrospect, maybe a lot of the early caches that everyone has placed haven't been the best. As technology gets better, so will our coordinates. As long as someone out there is using an older, low end, beginner GPS, this may be something that we, as a caching community, will have to deal with. In other words, it is what it is.

 

Now, just as we can use the newbie cacher with an older low end GPS, we can use the same scenario for a veteran cacher, still using his original older low end GPS, and he isn't able to make the find because the hider got much better coordinates with his newer better technolgy unit. It seems to be one huge debateable circle with no statistical evidence to back either side, yet there are more than two sides. Ic an count at least 4 different sides to argue.

 

I challenge all of us to go back to our very first caches and recheck your numbers. I wonder if we'll all find that they were quite a bit off. If you do this, respond back honestly so that we can see if there is a trend that the coordinates are getting better with time.

 

To sum all of this up, is it the newbie cacher or is it technology? I'm certain both play a role in all of this, just as having a veteran cacher with an older low end beginner GPS would have the same issues.

 

Thanks for steering me in the right direction Keystone, it's appreciated. Hope this helps a bit more than my last post.

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I have no hides. I spent last summer getting permission and am yet to get a decent container at a reasonable cost.

 

However, my only issues with mandating a certain number of finds before a hide are that it severely limits cache placement in areas without much cache saturation. So basically it's saying that the only people that can hide are those that can afford to travel to find cache. Another limitation is that physically many people can't get to a variety of terrains and hides so this will limit people who are physically unable able to get to 100 hides locally (such as people who are wheel chair bound or have mobility issues). There's any number of reasons why 100 arbitrary caches just doesn't make sense. I can honestly say it was with in my first 20 caches that I was pretty sure I had a good solid grasp on how to hide an ammo can or peanut butter jar. I really didn't need another 80 under my belt just to prove that point.

 

I think a test of the guidelines is fine. I think a test for the experienced cachers and the newer caches is fine too. I have no quibble about containers as that is a part of experiential learning. If you don't want to maintain it all the time then put out a better container or find a container that works better in the environment and old and new cachers alike go through this learning process. Since most issues seem to be with guidelines then it makes more sense to me to look at that end of it versus looking at the finding end. A finder may never have cause to actually look at the guidelines for hiding a cache in which case what does finding 100 actually mean? Nothing.

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So you hit the NM or NA button after that, right?

The cache I believe the OP was refering to was eventually archived, with no finds. It appears the cache was never actually placed.

 

I'm one of those ones that recommends that newbies wait awhile before placing a cache. Here's my reasons:

  • Container choice. The more caches you find, the more you realize how many environmental factors affect a container. Some containers don't do well in sun, rain, cold, or around animals.
  • Location choice. The more caches you've found the more you learn creative ways to hide caches. You also learn tricks to keep caches out of the hands of muggles.
  • The impulsive personality types. How many times have we seen a cacher enamored by Geocaching and dive in with both feet only to burn out after a few months when some other activity catches their eye? I see a lot of abandoned caches left by these individuals. Placing caches is for someone in it for the long haul.

Have new cachers placed good hides? Absolutely.

Have old-timers placed bad caches? Absolutely.

Do we see more issues with caches placed by newbies? Absolutely.

 

Do I wish newbies were banned from placing cache? Nope, but I'll continue to urge them to wait until they've developed some field experience before placing their first cache.

 

Excellent summary.

 

I think it's clear that we need some kind of reform of the cache submission system for first time cache hiders. What kind, and how much is what is up for debate.

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I agree with what Don_J wrote in response to my submission, and also have a problem with poorly maintained caches. I have no doubt that there could be a number of reasons why a cache is poorly maintained, one of which is the newbie placed hide by someone who has moved on to other things after that first flush of excitement. For these I can only suggest that perhaps a more rigid regime be adopted for logs that contain a 'needs maintenance' note, and if the CO hasn't responded within two weeks to the NM note that the listing be suspended. If there is no response from the CO after a further two weeks, the cache gets archived.

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I am getting ready to put together my first cache to hide and I have a few questions that I didnt see listed on the site.... are there restrictions on containers (ie - size, how they open, things like that) and do you have to get permission? (like I have found several that -such as to not give locations away - that are... in or under public property - so would I have to get permission from the nearby business or city or anything like that??

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I am getting ready to put together my first cache to hide and I have a few questions that I didnt see listed on the site.... are there restrictions on containers (ie - size, how they open, things like that)
Some containers are better than others, and some containers are more appropriate for certain locations than others, but there are no hard and fast restrictions on what can and cannot be used.

 

The size can be as small as you can fit a log into, or as large as you can obtain and get permission to hide. But whatever size container you use, be sure to list it appropriately. The Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines describe the cache sizes as follows:

Micro - 35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L – typically containing only a logbook or a logsheet

Small - sandwich-sized plastic container or similar – less than approximately 1 quart or 1 L – holds trade items as well as a logbook

Regular - plastic container or ammo can about the size of a shoebox

Large - 5 gallon/20 L bucket or larger

Speaking of which, it's a good idea to read the Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines. Then go back and read them again. After you've read them twice, go back and read them a third time so you really understand them.

 

and do you have to get permission?
Again, according to the guidelines, "you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

What is "adequate permission"? That depends on the location. I own two caches that are on private property with explicit permission. Around here, a lot of parks don't require explicit permission for each cache, but all caches must comply with park guidelines that are more restrictive than this site's guidelines. Other parks don't have an official policy, neither prohibiting geocaching nor accepting any responsibility for geocaches that are discarded by employees. Other locations explicitly prohibit geocaches.

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I am getting ready to put together my first cache to hide and I have a few questions that I didnt see listed on the site.... are there restrictions on containers (ie - size, how they open, things like that)
Some containers are better than others, and some containers are more appropriate for certain locations than others, but there are no hard and fast restrictions on what can and cannot be used.

 

The size can be as small as you can fit a log into, or as large as you can obtain and get permission to hide. But whatever size container you use, be sure to list it appropriately. The Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines describe the cache sizes as follows:

Micro - 35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L – typically containing only a logbook or a logsheet

Small - sandwich-sized plastic container or similar – less than approximately 1 quart or 1 L – holds trade items as well as a logbook

Regular - plastic container or ammo can about the size of a shoebox

Large - 5 gallon/20 L bucket or larger

Speaking of which, it's a good idea to read the Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines. Then go back and read them again. After you've read them twice, go back and read them a third time so you really understand them.

 

and do you have to get permission?
Again, according to the guidelines, "you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

What is "adequate permission"? That depends on the location. I own two caches that are on private property with explicit permission. Around here, a lot of parks don't require explicit permission for each cache, but all caches must comply with park guidelines that are more restrictive than this site's guidelines. Other parks don't have an official policy, neither prohibiting geocaching nor accepting any responsibility for geocaches that are discarded by employees. Other locations explicitly prohibit geocaches.

 

While it may not be a "hard and fast" rule, there is one container that should be avoided, especially in an urban area. A PVC tube with end caps should be avoided at all costs. Putting a wire in one of the caps to hang it means the bomb squad get to blow something up.

Edited by Don_J
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I hate going out after a new cache, spending 60-90 minutes in the woods searching every possible hiding spot within 100 ft of GZ with no luck. Then I come home to discover the the CO has only a few finds to his credit. Today the cache I searched for, had a CO with NO finds at all, not a single one. Part of it is my fault for not researching the CO's before I head out. But it makes a lot of sense to me, to require a minimum amount of caching experience before new cachers place their first cache. They would learn what size a 'regular' really is, terrain ratings, how to read coordinates and why they're important. Even if they've only made 10-12 finds, they have some idea of what this sport is really like. I don't want to make this elitist or discourage new cachers, but it wouldn't be hard to require 'some' experience. JMO

 

i would agree with having some sort of minimum finds before hiding a cache... i recently showed a friend geocaching for the first time and just from the explanation of geocaching, she was ready to hide 10+ around our city. annoyed, i told her i should take her out for a day or so at least to find some, so she understands how they are hidden, and to understand "courteous" places to put caches as opposed to very inconvenient places. now im not using courteous to mean easy, by all means make a hide difficult and secluded in the woods if thats what youd like to do, but to place one in a very suspicious area that will surely get people stopped by police, no parking for miles near the cache, and somewhere where it is only safely accessible for monkey-like climbers at the top of a large tree are places i wouldnt put a cache. so, we went out for a day and found about 15 caches. the next day she hid 4 immediately: one in her gated community (which needs a passcode) outside of a random persons house, the second inside a generator at a public park where the rangers like to patrol 24/7, and a couple more in other not-so-good places. ive been caching for about a year, logged 70+ and still havent hidden any. so maybe im biased because of my experiences, but i think there should be some sort of requirement to stop situations like these from happening.

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i would agree with having some sort of minimum finds before hiding a cache... i recently showed a friend geocaching for the first time and just from the explanation of geocaching, she was ready to hide 10+ around our city. annoyed, i told her i should take her out for a day or so at least to find some, so she understands how they are hidden, and to understand "courteous" places to put caches as opposed to very inconvenient places. now im not using courteous to mean easy, by all means make a hide difficult and secluded in the woods if thats what youd like to do, but to place one in a very suspicious area that will surely get people stopped by police, no parking for miles near the cache, and somewhere where it is only safely accessible for monkey-like climbers at the top of a large tree are places i wouldnt put a cache. so, we went out for a day and found about 15 caches. the next day she hid 4 immediately: one in her gated community (which needs a passcode) outside of a random persons house, the second inside a generator at a public park where the rangers like to patrol 24/7, and a couple more in other not-so-good places. ive been caching for about a year, logged 70+ and still havent hidden any. so maybe im biased because of my experiences, but i think there should be some sort of requirement to stop situations like these from happening.

 

This is why we also need a time-restraint. About 3 months wait after registration. The first glow of enthusiasm will subside and newbies like in your example will probably not bother if they have to wait 3 months. Gives them time to think about their hides, read the guidelines over, find a few caches, read a few comments and then place a cache once they have some experience under their belt.

Edited by Lone R
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This has all been very eye opening. As a newbie myself (35 finds to date) I've been thinking if hiding my own cache. I've seen the guidelines and intend on following them. As a show of respect for the geocaching community I wanted to be fully aware of the information available for hiding a cache so as not to cause any issues. I do think it is important for a newbie to know the guidelines because a poorly hidden cache can be discouraging to other newbies who can't find them.

 

On the other hand, why would someone want to hide a cache when they've never seen searched, found, and seen one before? :blink:

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I started another thread awhile ago asking if we were newbies or not. Nobody could understand why we cared. Saw this one and realized it was this thread that placed that question in our heads. Oh, and TFPTB unequivocally voted that newbies are newbies until they don't think they are newbies anymore. So lay off the newbies. They are empowered! :P

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We don't hunt caches owned by n00bs, ever.

 

After we hunted the 3rd n00b owned cache that wasn't even placed yet at the time of publishing, we vowed to never do it again and before you say we were n00bs hiding caches at one time, we weren't !

 

We didn't hide our first cache until we had 552 finds.

 

We wanted to be sure we knew the game before we hid our first cache.

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Simple answer. Research the cache look for recent activity etc. I always do this as I find a lot of hides receive little care and eventually become lost. If it is a one star that no one can find that is a pretty good clue. That said this site needs some flags when they start getting cache maint required that are several months old and no response they need to start disabling them until the owner responds.

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I'm more apt to filter out caches hidden by an old-timer in this area before I'd filter out new cachers.

 

I waited until I had over 100 finds to hide a cache. Interesting enough, though, I had only been at the hobby for a little over a month when I hit that find number. Don't underestimate a new caching addict. Some of us DO read the guidelines and DO take notes from our finds early on. Some may also get involved in caching circles early on, also. I wouldn't automatically give all newbs a bad name just because of length of time in the game or number of finds.

 

I am waiting to gain more experience before hiding a multi-stage puzzle cache, however. I need to find and experience more of these cache types before hiding my own.

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Simple answer. Research the cache look for recent activity etc. I always do this as I find a lot of hides receive little care and eventually become lost. If it is a one star that no one can find that is a pretty good clue. That said this site needs some flags when they start getting cache maint required that are several months old and no response they need to start disabling them until the owner responds.

There is a flag: It's called a Needs Archived log. It's up to the users to set that flag when needed.

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Interesting thread. The OP asks a relevant question and the discourse IS SAID to be about bashing noobs, or that veteran = good while noob = bad. But I totally disagree. I believe it comes down to being informed or not.

 

How many noobs actually read the guidelines and follow them before heading out like a herd of elephants trampling all over the vegetation because their GPS directs them to? And how many ever read the instructions on how to place a cache? Some do and some don't.

 

It is OBVIOUS this topic IS NOT about the noobs who get themselves informed before jumping in and messing with people's minds. I mean, we cache because we want to have our minds messed with but the puzzle has to be solvable. Some noobs want to show that they are smarter than everyone else and place impossible caches or downright idiotic ones that depend on mugglers apathy not to bend over and toss the container in the trash. That does not mean ALL NOOB caches are like that.

 

So I want to say thank you to those noobs who look for and read the guidelines among the pages and pages that make up the Geocaching website and who make an effort to place something out there that is both fun and maybe a bit (or more) challenging. But I also would encourage the reviewers to question those cache submissions from interested parties with nary a find to their name. After all what motivation does a person with 0 Finds have to place a geocache? What possible understanding could they possess to adequately mark a location and entice people to wander around in futility without having had the experience of having done so themselves at least half or a dozen times themselves?

 

I always thought the cornerstone of geocaching was consideration. Consideration for the environment the cache is placed in, consideration for the people who hope to be finders, consideration for the hiders and finally consideration for the muggles and who might be freaked out by the regular appearance in their neighbourhood of strangers wandering around carrying electronic detection gadgets. So I believe the problem here is not with the labels of noob or veteran but of being considerate and not. One should expect an experienced player to be more considerate than someone who just got their gps and geocaching apps loaded in their smartphones and are looking for cool things to do with their new Swiss Army knife of gadgets. But one shouldn't underestimate the excitement of the noob who catches the bug.

 

FOR SALE, RENT or LEASE: Soapbox, little used but sturdy and functional. Enquire within.

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I must say "Thank you" to all those of you who have agreed that newbies to the hobby can indeed hide effective and well thought out caches. I myself am new to this wonderful world and have been bitten by the "I want to hide my own" bug. That doesn't mean that I am going to go off without having read the documentation and guidelines to creating a good cache. I thought this was all about consideration for the environment and rules and yes, about having fun. I don't see how enforcing a limit of finds before a person is eligible to hide is in keeping with that attitude. I have been to several sites of folks who have a good number of finds/hides and still were unable to locate the cache due to the cache being opened and contents spilled out, etc. Being a newbie doesn't mean that you will not obey the rules. Preventing us from hiding seems to be borderline elitist and (yes here it comes) "big brother"-ish. Next we will be banned from packing our own bag lunches for while we're out caching...oh wait...that has already happened in Chicago's public lunchrooms......hope that is not where the hobby is headed.

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Don't underestimate a new caching addict. Some of us DO read the guidelines and DO take notes from our finds early on. Some may also get involved in caching circles early on, also. I wouldn't automatically give all newbs a bad name just because of length of time in the game or number of finds.

 

Definitely, there are good newbie COs out there - especially those that have found a variety of caches, gained some experience, read the guidelines and feel committed to the game.

 

Over the years I've come to appreciate First-To-Finders. They are geocaching guinea pigs. I often put a watch on a questionable new cache and wait to see what the FTFers say about the find then either 'ignore' the cache or put it on my list of caches to find.

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Don't underestimate a new caching addict. Some of us DO read the guidelines and DO take notes from our finds early on. Some may also get involved in caching circles early on, also. I wouldn't automatically give all newbs a bad name just because of length of time in the game or number of finds.

 

Definitely, there are good newbie COs out there - especially those that have found a variety of caches, gained some experience, read the guidelines and feel committed to the game.

 

Over the years I've come to appreciate First-To-Finders. They are geocaching guinea pigs. I often put a watch on a questionable new cache and wait to see what the FTFers say about the find then either 'ignore' the cache or put it on my list of caches to find.

 

A group of us went in on a puzzle cache FTF over the weekend that ended up being about 11K worth of hiking and a number of TOUGH hides. The CO walked along on part of the hike to get our feedback on coordinates, solving the puzzle, the route, etc. I thought that was a pretty good idea. He didn't give us any hints though, lol.

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I think the single worse thing you can do is hide a cache before you have gotten a good breadth of knowledge of what is possible. We hid our first entirely too early and I often think of it as one of our more lame hides. Get out there and cache outside of your local community. Often if you are in a micro-dense area/film cannister dense area you really see just a small fraction of what can be done. If you end up placing what everyone is placing, you are doing yourself and the community a disservice. Bring your A game to a hide (as much as possible, at least). Even if it is just a cool looking container.

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And, thus it happens, I am working on coloring in my calendar. One more day for 365 days colored in. (Yeah. I got to wait until next year for Feb 29...)So, for which cache should I go looking on Thursday on my 45-minute lunch? Cache A by a newbie (about whom I know nothing?). Or cache B by an oldie (I have found many of his caches. Coords seem a bit soft to me, but that's not usually a problem.) I've found most of the nearby cache. Nearest caches would be 45 minutes round trip.

Yup. I'm going for the oldie's cache. Call it more confidence. I'll save the newbie cache for a time when I have more time.

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On the Getting Started forum, a noob asked this: Just got my delivery of geocaching supplies. Can't wait to get started. But on the Official Geocaching label, there is a line for GC code. What is that and where would I locate that?" I have to question the reason why they had to rush into placing a cache w/o knowing one of the very basics.

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Groundspead is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups.

<snicker> OK, let's hear it from you overly sensitive types!! </snicker>

 

There are plenty out there, I'm sure they will.

 

P.S. and yes, it was worded that way to be a little bit of a goad. :angry:

One thing the forum regulars have never been accused of is being overly-sensitive. Thick-skinned is more like it.

Just don't mention firearms!

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Groundspead is already considering some guidelines for placing caches.

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...cours?ref=title

 

I always find it amusing that everytime someone brings up a topic like, "newbies placing caches" or "iphone users bad logging techniques" the overly sensitive types come out and try to defend said groups.

<snicker> OK, let's hear it from you overly sensitive types!! </snicker>

 

There are plenty out there, I'm sure they will.

 

P.S. and yes, it was worded that way to be a little bit of a goad. :angry:

One thing the forum regulars have never been accused of is being overly-sensitive. Thick-skinned is more like it.

 

Some regulars however are thin skinned, they summon a power hungry moderator and beg for the thread to be ended. Been there, had that happen (present company excepted).

 

Our moderators are not power hungry. That is why they are called "moderators". They moderate. How many points did I just earn?

 

 

As I posted a few pages ago, I'm overly sensitive (look for the post with the raised hand)

But I still want some tighter guidelines on new cachers hiding caches.

No one should be able to hide a cache if they've never found one. Period.

The best would be to have found at least 50 before you hide one, preferably 100.

People don't get a feel for the game until after 100 caches.

 

Now we'll get all sorts of thick-skinned sorts saying that some new cachers are great hiders.

But the majority AREN'T.

It isn't the old cachers who are out there hiding with I-phones or google maps.

It isn't the old cachers using baggies or garbage bags to hide caches in.

 

I'm glad Groundspeak is looking into people having to take a course before they can hide a cache. That sounds like a great solution.

Then it's about the knowledge, not about the numbers.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I think anyone should be able to make a hide, just read the listing before you go and if they are newbies, skip it. I have less than 150 finds and only three hides. My first hide I did with 30 something finds and all three hides with less than 150 finds. Anyone can read the logs on my hides and judge for themselves if they are quality or not. My idea of what makes a good hide I descerned after my first hide and I have not changed my idea of a quality hide one bit. Further, it is my feeling that each person has his or her idea of how to enjoy geocaching and others should not be deciding for them on how they should enjoy the hobby. If a newbie wants to hang a bison tube in a bush they should be able to, as long as they follow the rules. Whatever is fun for the individual player, as long as the rules are followed, should be allowed.

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I wish ya'll would just post a set standard or something as a minimum. This way there is a goal to strive for and it'd weed out the people that join one day and quit a week later. And those of us who like to put some time and effort into making a cache, would know that after spending a month designing, building, moving, establishing and hiding a good cache, would get people out there looking for it and not staying away because it was done by a n00bie.

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If a newbie wants to hang a bison tube in a bush they should be able to, as long as they follow the rules. Whatever is fun for the individual player, as long as the rules are followed, should be allowed.

 

Ah, but then you'd take away the oldbies' fun of putting other people down! :D More seriously, the line about a bison tube in a bush made me chuckle; most of the hides like that in my area are put up by fairly experienced cachers.

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I'm just a itching to place my first cache but due to how people feel about us n00bies, I've held back and working on aquiring enough finds to warrent non-n00b'ish status. It'' take awhile because of all the little magnetic containers that I won't touch around here placed by oldbies.

 

Go for it! You already have more finds than I had when I hid my first one, and I have had nothing but compliments in the logs. One team with several thousand finds said it was in their top five. Don't listen to the nattering nabobs of negativism (thanks Spiro).

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Just because an account doesn't have any finds on it doesn't mean that it is a newby cacher. It is not uncommon for teams to use a separate account for hiding caches and their personal accounts for logging them. I have caches hidden under my account and others hidden under a team account. If you look at the team account, it has zero finds and last logon is probably many months ago.

 

I've also found really bad hides and really lame caches hidden by cachers with thousands of finds.... :angry:

 

What he said. Agreed. :cool:

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