Why are national historic parks considered national parks?

[+Coldgears]

Doesn't make sense, national historic parks are lame and boring, no wildlife just a lot of history. There is no way anyone could disturb nature in one of these parks, let alone have a cache ruin the one or two trees in there so called, "National Parks". I think they need to make exceptions for these because while the history is enjoyable the first time through, the area's get boring without a carrot-on-a-stick.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Coldgears

[+Harry Dolphin]

The ban is not on 'National Parks', but rather 'areas administered by the National Park Service'. There are eighteen 'types' of areas administered by NPS, from National Parks to National Recreation Areas to National Monuments &c. It is the NPS that has put up the ban (with some exceptions determined by the manager of the individual park). Just because you find some boring does not remove it from NPS administration. Independence ay be a small park, but most of the NHPs are quite a bit larger.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Doesn't make sense, national historic parks are lame and boring, no wildlife just a lot of history. There is no way anyone could disturb nature in one of these parks, let alone have a cache ruin the one or two trees in there so called, "National Parks". I think they need to make exceptions for these because while the history is enjoyable the first time through, the area's get boring without a carrot-on-a-stick.

 

Are you joking or trolling?

[+Coldgears]

Doesn't make sense, national historic parks are lame and boring, no wildlife just a lot of history. There is no way anyone could disturb nature in one of these parks, let alone have a cache ruin the one or two trees in there so called, "National Parks". I think they need to make exceptions for these because while the history is enjoyable the first time through, the area's get boring without a carrot-on-a-stick.

 

Are you joking or trolling?

I'm serious, I wouldn't go to virtually any parks without geocaching. So I think that NPS needs to ease up on there historic parks because they desperately need more real geocaches, I mean how can they disturb nature?

[+John in Valley Forge]

Doesn't make sense, national historic parks are lame and boring, no wildlife just a lot of history. There is no way anyone could disturb nature in one of these parks, let alone have a cache ruin the one or two trees in there so called, "National Parks". I think they need to make exceptions for these because while the history is enjoyable the first time through, the area's get boring without a carrot-on-a-stick.

 

Are you joking or trolling?

I'm serious, I wouldn't go to virtually any parks without geocaching. So I think that NPS needs to ease up on there historic parks because they desperately need more real geocaches, I mean how can they disturb nature?

 

There are two National Historical Parks in SE PA; Independence National Historical Park and Valley Forge National Historical Park. I'm not sure what is so boring about either location.

 

Independence NHPS is located in the heart of Olde City Philadelphia. Admittedly it is hard not to notice historical things in the birthplace of our nation. There are lots of other attractions in that area including top notch restaurants, bars and shopping. The architecture in the area is spectacular. There are two buildings down town that were, at the time of construction, the tallest building in the world. You can visit the US Mint, Jeweler’s Row, and the river front at Penn’s Landing, the Walnut Street Theatre or a few blocks south to South Street which is a mecca of all things odd and strange. Plenty of "wild life" around here. You can even eat lunch in the childhood home of Larry Fine at the corner of 3rd & South. I've avoided mentioning any of the historic sites but there are many.

 

As far as caches, there are about 30 in a 1 mile radius from the site of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Widening to a 2 mile radius increases the cache count to 61. Many of these are of a low D/T nature so they can likely be found quickly (I've not been down there caching, but I used to work within sight of the Liberty Bell).

 

Valley Forge NHPS is a more traditional park-like setting. It has 19 miles of marked hiking trails, another 20 miles of bike trails and the terminus of the Horseshoe Trail. There are picnic areas and even a public boat ramp. There is a section of the park that I call the airport. Model airplane enthusiasts gather here to fly their planes. In the evening there are often meetings of astronomy clubs, due to the diminished light pollution afforded by such a large piece of green space in the center of suburbia. You can fly-fish in Valley Creek, although only catch and release is allowed (because the fish have been found to have high levels of mercury).

 

For Geocaching, there are 2 virtuals and 3 earth caches within the 3,000 acres of the park. Sadly the virtuals involve reading about history. The one virtual has over 600 found logs and the other more than 500, so apparently someone liked it.

 

There is a 5* terrain cache that is but isn't in the park (it is out in the river, which is technically not controlled by the NPS). There are 55 caches within a 3 mile radius of the Memorial Arch in the park (which is the closest thing I could come up with as the center point of the park). There are traditionals, multis and mysteries. Even a few lpcs in the nearby shopping centers. Several of the caches involve hikes beginning in the park (one can be upwards of a 25 mile hike depending on how you go). The hikes generally lead to a cache hidden just outside the park boundaries. On these hikes you will encounter more white tail deer than you can count. I've also seen fox, wild turkey and the obligatory groundhogs. For even more adventure, get a kayak and find any of the 7 5* terrain caches along the river. Or get a bike and ride the Schuylkill River Trail. I've lost count of the caches on it, somewhere over 60. Railroad buffs might enjoy the newly restored VF train station, built by the famed Reading Railroad in 1911, but that might be considered historical. You could visit the chapel area and hear the carillion play from the bell tower. There are lots of other things to do and see, but a lot of them involve history.

 

It wounds my heart that you feel the way you do about our country's National Historical Parks. There is more to the parks than history and Geocaching. To each his own.

[+edscott]

Lots of misinformation here.

 

Caches are not BANNED in national parks or historical sites. Permission may not be easy to obtain for a number of reasons but there is a document that describes the placement of caches and outlines the procedures involved in granting permission for such activities in areas controlled by the NPS titled "GPS-based Recreational Activities in National Park Areas". If the park manager is willing to consider caching and if the hider is willing to jump through a few hoops to satisfy the environmental concerns caches can be placed.

 

Valley Forge is not an example of a user friendly park. I'll not elaborate, but placement of traditional caches in that park probably won't happen soon.

 

However there is another National Historic Site less than 30 miles away that has 4 traditional caches, 2 of which were placed at their request. It is all about the philosophy of the park management of any given park. To some the park is their land and not ours.. a good day is a day with no visitors to cause work or issues while other more progressive managers consider the parks to be a resource to be shared with the people and welcome our participation in their educational and recreational programs.

 

If cachers develop a relationship with a local NPS site there is a strong chance of getting permission for placement of traditional caches especially if they can be tied into the historical or recreational mission of the park.

Edited November 18, 2010 by edscott

[+lil_cav_wings]

Seriously?

 

Our history isn't worth preserving, eh?

 

Try telling that to the National Park Service's dive team while they're conducting a mapping on the hull of the Arizona.

 

Please please please please tell me that you're joking.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Lots of misinformation here.

 

Caches are not BANNED in national parks or historical sites. Permission may not be easy to obtain for a number of reasons but there is a document that describes the placement of caches and outlines the procedures involved in granting permission for such activities in areas controlled by the NPS titled "GPS-based Recreational Activities in National Park Areas". If the park manager is willing to consider caching and if the hider is willing to jump through a few hoops to satisfy the environmental concerns caches can be placed.

 

Valley Forge is not an example of a user friendly park. I'll not elaborate, but placement of traditional caches in that park probably won't happen soon.

 

However there is another National Historic Site less than 30 miles away that has 4 traditional caches, 2 of which were placed at their request. It is all about the philosophy of the park management of any given park. To some the park is their land and not ours.. a good day is a day with no visitors to cause work or issues while other more progressive managers consider the parks to be a resource to be shared with the people and welcome our participation in their educational and recreational programs.

 

If cachers develop a relationship with a local NPS site there is a strong chance of getting permission for placement of traditional caches especially if they can be tied into the historical or recreational mission of the park.

 

That is extremely interesting, Ed. I had wondered how those ended up at the furnace.

We have to content with hides along the fence lines.

[+Coldgears]

I think you guys misunderstood me. These parks are great, I had a blast the first time I went to Valley Forge. As for the other park, that one I actually visited twice. The problem is I would like to come back to these parks, but the history alone can not convince me. This thread wasn't an arguement agaisnt National Historical Parks, but more gaisnt the fact that they are treated the same way as other NPS parks. I would love for them to make exceptions for these parks.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I think you guys misunderstood me. These parks are great, I had a blast the first time I went to Valley Forge. As for the other park, that one I actually visited twice. The problem is I would like to come back to these parks, but the history alone can not convince me. This thread wasn't an arguement agaisnt National Historical Parks, but more gaisnt the fact that they are treated the same way as other NPS parks. I would love for them to make exceptions for these parks.

 

And the answer is still the same. They are administered by the NPS, and fall under NPS regulations. Discuss the situation with your local NPS. Maybe you can convince the superintendant. But NPS is NPS, and requires specific permission.

Look up the river. I drive through, and hike in the DWGNRA. 70000 acres. As far as I can tell, three caches. Two virtuals, and a traditional hidden with permission. Seems sad. Big brouhaha a few years back, when someone hid a cache at Grey Towers NHS in Milford, Pa, without permission. Ended in a geocide. Express written permission required because it IS NPS.

So, take up your quandry with the local NPS, and remember it is a government bureaucracy.

[+John in Valley Forge]

I think you guys misunderstood me. These parks are great, I had a blast the first time I went to Valley Forge. As for the other park, that one I actually visited twice. The problem is I would like to come back to these parks, but the history alone can not convince me. This thread wasn't an arguement agaisnt National Historical Parks, but more gaisnt the fact that they are treated the same way as other NPS parks. I would love for them to make exceptions for these parks.

 

Why shouldn't they be treated as carefully as any other National Park if not more so?

 

Valley Forge National Historical Park is hallowed ground. Washington led the remnants of his army here after suffering a string of defeats at places you may have heard of, Brandywine, Chadds Ford, Paoli, Germantown and Whitemarsh. The suffering and privations endured by the soldiers were unthinkable. Men ate their own shoes for lack of real food. 15% of the army died of starvation and disease in those fields, where you would hide Tupperware. As you walk through the woods you may see the remains of the original defenses built by those desperate starving men (not the star redoubts, those are recreations, I'm talking about the inner line of defenses). I doubt that there is much if any land that was not occupied by one of those soldiers. Thanks to those soldiers you live in a free nation, not ruled over by a despotic king across the ocean.

Would Geocaching threaten the environment there? Absolutely. I see examples of it all the time. Geocachers create geotrails, which can lead to erosion. Change the water drains down Mt Joy and you could wash away those inner line ramparts.

 

By the "other park" are you referring to Independence National Historical Park? You must be, it is the only other National Historical Park in the region? Hypothetically, I do not think that it would be practical to hide a cache there. It is a city street. As I recall, after 9/11 they welded the manhole covers down. I doubt that lifting a lamp post skirt would go over well. Homeland Security would have a bit to say about that. Maybe we could put a Blinkie under the Liberty Bell. That would be a great idea.

 

It is also a spot that is sacred to the nation. It is depicted on the back of two different denominations of our paper currency. Independence Hall is on the back of the $100 and the Signing of the Declaration of Independence is depicted on the back of the $2. Two of the men associated with the building are depicted on the front of the $1 and $100 bills. Just a testament to the importance of the site where 56 men committed high treason against King George III.

 

 

Attitudes like the one you have displayed here are quite possibly the best argument against opening parks to geocaching. I like to think that all cachers are more environmentally aware than the average public. Clearly I am wrong.

[+Coldgears]

 

Maybe we could put a Blinkie under the Liberty Bell. That would be a great idea.

 

Better yet, paint it brown and put it in the crack! I wonder if they would actually allow this though.

 

EDIT: This is sarcasm as I have clearly lost the "battle".

Edited November 19, 2010 by Coldgears

[+edscott]

And the answer is still the same. They are administered by the NPS, and fall under NPS regulations. Discuss the situation with your local NPS. Maybe you can convince the superintendant. But NPS is NPS, and requires specific permission.

Look up the river. I drive through, and hike in the DWGNRA. 70000 acres. As far as I can tell, three caches. Two virtuals, and a traditional hidden with permission. Seems sad. Big brouhaha a few years back, when someone hid a cache at Grey Towers NHS in Milford, Pa, without permission. Ended in a geocide. Express written permission required because it IS NPS.

So, take up your quandry with the local NPS, and remember it is a government bureaucracy.

 

Orienteering is allowed in the water gap area so I'd guess with a bit of an effort a cache would be approved.. Making it fit their mission, showing people a spot the park would like to highlight... and placing it in an area that is not susceptible to environmental damage (the cache, the most likely route to GZ, and the area where most will park) will go a long way in making the process work. I 'll add that one of the concerns in the Water Gap is off trail travel up and down the very steep slopes that lead to the streams. Use the ridges or trails and there will be less concern.

Edited November 19, 2010 by edscott

[+lil_cav_wings]

I wouldn't say that you've lost the battle (thus resulting to sarcasm-- which is a tool I love too), but you just have to reorganize your forces on another front.

 

A National Historic Site is every bit as precious as the delicate ecology of a National Park or other environmental area, just like John in VF said. If they get destroyed or even slightly damaged, we don't get them back. You can't make more Gettysburgs (which is a good thing considering what happened to make it so important to our nation).

 

But there are many ways to make a geocache that aren't invasive to the surrounding area. Puzzle caches are an excellent example. I've seen puzzles that take someone all over to gather clues that lead you to the ending cache (which is placed off site in an area that isn't protected). You just have to be creative and considerate.

 

Find history that appeals to you personally and make it your goal to develop a geniunely unique puzzle. The more you research a place or part of history, you may find that you begin to appreciate the history of a place enough to make repeated visits without the need for cache.

Edited November 19, 2010 by lil_cav_wings

[+Michaelcycle]

The best reply I can make to this argument is that geocaching is a game. You can't play games everywhere and the people entrusted with caring for our national treasures are not required to allow us to play this game in and around these treasures just because they are "public" property. How about a nice game of floor hockey in Independence Hall, for example?

I am writing this after spending an afternoon and evening at the Smithsonian and on the National Mall. I have visited this area over 100 times in my life. Susancycle and I picked up a few Virtuals while we were there, as we sometimes do, but if there were no geocaches anywhere in D.C. I would still come to visit the Wall and see the Capitol and the Washington monument all lit up. If you find such places "boring" after one or two visits, fine. Don't go back. Just don't expect the custodians of these precious places to allow game playing as a way to entice return visits.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Perhaps some need to live through some more history to truly appreciate it.

[+briansnat]

I would certainly love to see the NPS lighten up on restrictions, particularly in NHPs and similar areas. They complain that visits are down in many of these parks. It's a good way to bring in some more people.

 

Also, as a whole Americans are woefully ignorant of our history and the ignorance is even worse with the younger generations. Perhaps a segment of cachers will visit for the cache and come away with a with a little better understanding of our nation's history and that is a good thing.

 

I have a cache in Morristown National Historic Park. It has a virtual stage in the park and the actual cache is right outside the boundary. It is fairly popular and I'm confident that many finders took away something more from the cache than just another another smiley and a trinket.

 

I'm sure there are environmentally sensitive areas in some of these parks, but we're not talking the Yellowstone backcountry. NHPs are generally designed to withstand a lot of visitors. The additional traffic coming from a few geocaches would be inconsequential to the environment as long as they are responsibly placed.

[+edscott]

....

I'm sure there are environmentally sensitive areas in some of these parks, but we're not talking the Yellowstone backcountry. NHPs are generally designed to withstand a lot of visitors. The additional traffic coming from a few geocaches would be inconsequential to the environment as long as they are responsibly placed.

 

Valley Forge did a study on the impact of deer traffic.. not browsing... to the vegetation in the park. One deer does more damage in a year than several thousand.. I'll need to find the study on my hard drive to get the exact number of thousands.. of visitors. Of course in VF they plan to spotlight and shoot most of the deer some night so cachers beware. []

[+John in Valley Forge]

....

I'm sure there are environmentally sensitive areas in some of these parks, but we're not talking the Yellowstone backcountry. NHPs are generally designed to withstand a lot of visitors. The additional traffic coming from a few geocaches would be inconsequential to the environment as long as they are responsibly placed.

 

Valley Forge did a study on the impact of deer traffic.. not browsing... to the vegetation in the park. One deer does more damage in a year than several thousand.. I'll need to find the study on my hard drive to get the exact number of thousands.. of visitors. Of course in VF they plan to spotlight and shoot most of the deer some night so cachers beware. []

 

Brian, While I agree that the NHPs are probably more prepared for heavy traffic, I disagree that environmental damage wouldn't be caused. Any physical caches would have to be placed with a huge amount of forethought (not that I object to that). It would take a highly experienced cacher to do so. There are still inactive (due to funding cuts) archeological digs going on in the park. The caches that are listed in the park today are either virtuals (the arch in my avatar is one, along with a site that may or may not be something important), several earth caches, and stages to finals located a few steps outside the boundaries. While I like to think that caches inside the park would increase visitor traffic without causing any damage, I just do not have that much faith in all of my fellow cachers. I think visitors (from my experience walking in the park) tend to stay in the designated areas more than the deer do. That said, the area around the "maybe graves" virtual, although fenced off and well marked, showed evidence over the summer of people climbing over the fence to walk up and get a better look. You just can't underestimate the stupidity of the general public.

 

Ed, the white tails are a menace. The last study I read showed that the population of deer in the park is 10 times the sustainable levels. The deer are starving, mangy, tick ridden. They look pretty from a distance, but when you get close (which you can easily do, they have no fear of humans or speeding cars) they are a pitiful sight. As the surrounding farmland is sold to housing developers the problem only gets worse. They wander farther and farther outside the park at night, following the river and railroad track (they don't know about the 150ft rule) into neighboring towns. Local cops carry yard signs (like you see around elections) that say "DEER" to place along the road next to the carcasses of those hit by cars (I've hit two). Parts of Rt422's pavement are almost permanently stained brown with the blood of mashed deer.

 

VFNHP is no longer the wide open park it was 20 or 30 years ago. The park is bounded by two high speed highways, the PA Turnpike, Rt 422, the river (although it does extend to the other side) and residences. I've walked much of the perimeter, as part of a multicache. When you step over the park boundary you are likely standing in the back yard of a McMansion. Very high fences surround many of these. The deer have no place to go.

 

Hunts to cull the herd are ridiculously expensive, due to court challenges. Many have been proposed over the years. One was just approved by the federal courts, but I am not holding my breath to hear the rifle shots. I can just imagine animal rights groups flooding the park on the nights of the hunt to disrupt it. They have prevented hunts in the past through legal means. Some crazies well meaning but perhaps misguided persons proposed introducing coyotes to the area. Not exactly a natural animal in these parts and while I don't mind seeing a couple deer or a red fox in my yard (though they drive my dog nutzo), a coyote would not like. I mean, what would they do once the deer were eaten? Eat the rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks and wild turkeys? We wouldn't be lucky enough to have them eat the Canadian Geese, another local menace. I suspect they would hunt local pets.

 

The parks are off-limits now. They are just too precious to risk. As much as I like this game/sport/hobby, I would strenuously fight against opening it to caches without a tremendous amount of oversight. Since there is precious little funding for the parks, I do not envision them being able to do such oversight without serious volunteer efforts or monetary fees.

 

(edited to fix some spelling misteaks)

Edited November 20, 2010 by John in Valley Forge

[+Renegade Knight]

Seriously?

 

Our history isn't worth preserving, eh? ...

 

Not to the extent we are physically forced to do so.

[+briansnat]

Brian, While I agree that the NHPs are probably more prepared for heavy traffic, I disagree that environmental damage wouldn't be caused. Any physical caches would have to be placed with a huge amount of forethought (not that I object to that). It would take a highly experienced cacher to do so. There are still inactive (due to funding cuts) archeological digs going on in the park. The caches that are listed in the park today are either virtuals (the arch in my avatar is one, along with a site that may or may not be something important), several earth caches, and stages to finals located a few steps outside the boundaries.

 

I've been caching for going on 10 years and have seen little of the environmental damage that you seem to think is so common. Out of nearly 1,000 cache hunts I've seen maybe two dozen "geotrails" caused by the cache and without exception they were on caches that were very close (50 feet or less) to a road, parking or other easy access point. When they are close to an easy access point, people tend to turn off at more or less the same spot and it can create a faint path over time. I've not seen this happen when caches are placed a good distance from an easy access point.

 

All but maybe half a dozen of these geotrails were essentially either trampled grass or a barely discernible path through underbrush, no different from the numerous game trails that lace the woods and of the type that would disappear soon after the cache was gone. The half dozen or so cases where there was a compacted treadway were caches that were just a few steps from a parking lot or road, hardly a "sensitive" area.

 

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

 

So I really don't see an issue with cache placements in these places as long as cachers work with park officials to determine whether a location is appropriate, which I'm sure would be a requirement if they were ever allowed.

Edited November 20, 2010 by briansnat

[+addisonbr]

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, my experience has been that virtual caches have a very different foot pattern than traditional caches, especially traditional caches that are reasonably well camo'd. Most of the time the information you're looking for to solve a virtual cache isn't particularly hard to find, but a small cache container that's well hidden can have people walking back and forth over the same patch of ground for 15-30-45 minutes or more.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, my experience has been that virtual caches have a very different foot pattern than traditional caches, especially traditional caches that are reasonably well camo'd. Most of the time the information you're looking for to solve a virtual cache isn't particularly hard to find, but a small cache container that's well hidden can have people walking back and forth over the same patch of ground for 15-30-45 minutes or more.

 

And the virtuals at VFNHP are in paved areas.

[+Coldgears]

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, my experience has been that virtual caches have a very different foot pattern than traditional caches, especially traditional caches that are reasonably well camo'd. Most of the time the information you're looking for to solve a virtual cache isn't particularly hard to find, but a small cache container that's well hidden can have people walking back and forth over the same patch of ground for 15-30-45 minutes or more.

 

And the virtuals at VFNHP are in paved areas.

Why can't we have a nano placed on a cannon. Or a film can in the parking lot. Why are these off limits?

[+John in Valley Forge]

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, my experience has been that virtual caches have a very different foot pattern than traditional caches, especially traditional caches that are reasonably well camo'd. Most of the time the information you're looking for to solve a virtual cache isn't particularly hard to find, but a small cache container that's well hidden can have people walking back and forth over the same patch of ground for 15-30-45 minutes or more.

 

And the virtuals at VFNHP are in paved areas.

Why can't we have a nano placed on a cannon. Or a film can in the parking lot. Why are these off limits?

 

Because it is the rules and organized societies abide by the rules set down by the governments they elect. If you don't like it, you can vote to elect a new government.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Because it is the rules and organized societies abide by the rules set down by the governments they elect. If you don't like it, you can vote to elect a new government.

 

It's not that simple actually.

 

You get to chose from two candidates that have a shot at winning. They are the ones who survive the party telling them what they think and will do plus do the best courting special interests to get the funds to pay for the advertising that tells us who to vote for.

 

By the time we are allowed to vote we are given a choice between the best schmoozers and players either party has in it's ranks and not so much the best for the goals and interests we as voters actually have.

 

The only way that's going to change is for us to play hardball just like everyone else.

[+briansnat]

Regarding virtual vs. real caches, I don't think the vegetation cares if you are there to look for a virtual or a real cache, so if a virtual or earthcache can be supported at the location, there is no reason a real cache can't be there.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, my experience has been that virtual caches have a very different foot pattern than traditional caches, especially traditional caches that are reasonably well camo'd. Most of the time the information you're looking for to solve a virtual cache isn't particularly hard to find, but a small cache container that's well hidden can have people walking back and forth over the same patch of ground for 15-30-45 minutes or more.

 

And the virtuals at VFNHP are in paved areas.

Why can't we have a nano placed on a cannon. Or a film can in the parking lot. Why are these off limits?

 

Because it is the rules and organized societies abide by the rules set down by the governments they elect. If you don't like it, you can vote to elect a new government.

 

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

[+Michaelcycle]

 

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

 

That's a commonly repeated fiction. All government policy makers are ultimately responsible to elected officials.

The park supers report to the head of the NPS. The head of the NPS reports to Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar. Mr Salazar was proposed for office by President Obama and approved by a majority of the US Senate.

 

Most of the time the land managers are trying to do what they think the politicians want them to do (as the elected representatives of the people, regardless of the degree you or I think those elected officials represent you or I) And, by the way, every one of those so-called bureaucrats functions within a budget that must be approved by the House and the Senate.

Want to wager on the results of a Senate vote on hiding physical geocaches on NPS land?

[+edscott]

John.. I agree the deer are a problem.. way more of a problem than the 20 or 30 people that might visit an orienteering control point at an Orienteering event or the couple hundred that might visit a cache over a the few years of its expected lifetime.

[+edscott]

 

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

 

That's a commonly repeated fiction. All government policy makers are ultimately responsible to elected officials.

The park supers report to the head of the NPS. The head of the NPS reports to Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar. Mr Salazar was proposed for office by President Obama and approved by a majority of the US Senate.

 

Most of the time the land managers are trying to do what they think the politicians want them to do (as the elected representatives of the people, regardless of the degree you or I think those elected officials represent you or I) And, by the way, every one of those so-called bureaucrats functions within a budget that must be approved by the House and the Senate.

Want to wager on the results of a Senate vote on hiding physical geocaches on NPS land?

 

It isn't fiction... and if the elected officials were to spend their time as you suggest, micromanaging every department at every level, our government would be more dysfunctional than it already is.

[+briansnat]

 

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

 

That's a commonly repeated fiction. All government policy makers are ultimately responsible to elected officials.

The park supers report to the head of the NPS. The head of the NPS reports to Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar. Mr Salazar was proposed for office by President Obama and approved by a majority of the US Senate.

 

Most of the time the land managers are trying to do what they think the politicians want them to do (as the elected representatives of the people, regardless of the degree you or I think those elected officials represent you or I) And, by the way, every one of those so-called bureaucrats functions within a budget that must be approved by the House and the Senate.

Want to wager on the results of a Senate vote on hiding physical geocaches on NPS land?

 

It isn't fiction... and if the elected officials were to spend their time as you suggest, micromanaging every department at every level, our government would be more dysfunctional than it already is.

Correct, it's not fiction, the rules are made by unelected bureaucrats. Michaelcycle is technically correct in that they ultimately answer to the politicians, but rarely do the politicians intervene in routine governmental operations unless there is legislation that effects it or it is in their political self interest to do so (usually in the form of "constituent service").

 

A bureaucrat with a 24 year career may may see the terms of several different presidents, senators and 12 congresses over the course of that career, with swings to the left and right over the course of that time. It can take years for a policy decision to be made and by the time it is, the political winds may have shifted, perhaps several times over the course of the decision making process. Google snowmobile ban Yellowstone to see how long that has been going back and forth.

Edited November 21, 2010 by briansnat

[+weathernowcast]

 

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

 

That's a commonly repeated fiction. All government policy makers are ultimately responsible to elected officials.

The park supers report to the head of the NPS. The head of the NPS reports to Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar. Mr Salazar was proposed for office by President Obama and approved by a majority of the US Senate.

 

Most of the time the land managers are trying to do what they think the politicians want them to do (as the elected representatives of the people, regardless of the degree you or I think those elected officials represent you or I) And, by the way, every one of those so-called bureaucrats functions within a budget that must be approved by the House and the Senate.

Want to wager on the results of a Senate vote on hiding physical geocaches on NPS land?

 

It isn't fiction... and if the elected officials were to spend their time as you suggest, micromanaging every department at every level, our government would be more dysfunctional than it already is.

Correct, it's not fiction, the rules are made by unelected bureaucrats. Michaelcycle is technically correct in that they ultimately answer to the politicians, but rarely do the politicians intervene in routine governmental operations unless there is legislation that effects it or it is in their political self interest to do so (usually in the form of "constituent service").

 

A bureaucrat with a 24 year career may may see the terms of several different presidents, senators and 12 congresses over the course of that career, with swings to the left and right over the course of that time. It can take years for a policy decision to be made and by the time it is, the political winds may have shifted, perhaps several times over the course of the decision making process. Google snowmobile ban Yellowstone to see how long that has been going back and forth.

 

Snat is correct again!

I may add: Neither is the public involved with most written or verbal policy decisions. If this were a law or a regulation, the legislators would be involved or the public allowed to voice their opinion.

 

However, this an improved process does exist in places! I believe a formal public opinion request is currently open regarding parkland managed by a northern New Jersey county. I hope all who comment here participate in that public format so your voice or words are heard. It should be educational for all involved and that is a great thing! A seperate post exists on that topic.

[+John in Valley Forge]

John.. I agree the deer are a problem..

 

I was told by a very trusted source that there were 8 dead deer and a dead fox on Rt 422 in the stretch between the Betzwood bridge and the Limerick outlet mall.

[+Harry Dolphin]

The Jockey Hollow section of Morristown National Historic Park has an interesting demonstration on the damage done by deer. They have several 'deer cages' along the trails. Cages that the deer cannot get into. "This is what the park would look like without deer." Moat of the park is clear from ground level to about sic feet up (except for the alien invasive Japanese barberry.)

[+John in Valley Forge]

The Jockey Hollow section of Morristown National Historic Park has an interesting demonstration on the damage done by deer. They have several 'deer cages' along the trails. Cages that the deer cannot get into. "This is what the park would look like without deer." Moat of the park is clear from ground level to about sic feet up (except for the alien invasive Japanese barberry.)

 

Valley Forge has several areas like that too, fenced off to keep the deer out. The spots really do completely different from the surrounding areas.

[+lil_cav_wings]

It's not elected officials who make these rules, it's unelected bureaucrats.

 

Briansnat is right. Those are government selected jobs which are filled with GS employees on a graduated scale. Working for the National Park Service is like any other government job... you're part of a massive beaucratic nightmare which makes regulatory adjustments tough. It is possible to lobby to change regs at the national level, but it takes time, research and persistance.

 

With that said, the reason you can't hide a nano in a canon on a battlefield full of cannons isn't because your average GS-8 park ranger thinks geocaching is the root of all evil. It's because of lowest common denominator: once you allow a little online community like this one to place a magnetic container the monuments, you have to allow for everyone else to have the same benefits...

[+edscott]

 

With that said, the reason you can't hide a nano in a canon on a battlefield full of cannons isn't because your average GS-8 park ranger thinks geocaching is the root of all evil. It's because of lowest common denominator: once you allow a little online community like this one to place a magnetic container the monuments, you have to allow for everyone else to have the same benefits...

 

But if it is done by a "park volunteer" (you) and done to promote the visiting of those same cannons it becomes part of their program and a great promotional idea that they have managed to get in their park at absolutely no cost to them. It is all in how you approach it.

[+ChinCache]

aahhh, just stick a "chirp" in a deer a** and see if anyone logs it!

[+John in Valley Forge]

aahhh, just stick a "chirp" in a deer a** and see if anyone logs it!

 

LOL, the Chirp might end up in the food bank though, the sharpshooters are clearing them out pretty well this month.

[+edscott]

aahhh, just stick a "chirp" in a deer a** and see if anyone logs it!

 

LOL, the Chirp might end up in the food bank though, the sharpshooters are clearing them out pretty well this month.

 

I wonder if the sharpshooter are off the trails and walking on the vegetation? We've been told that's illegal by TPTB at VF.

[+John in Valley Forge]

aahhh, just stick a "chirp" in a deer a** and see if anyone logs it!

 

LOL, the Chirp might end up in the food bank though, the sharpshooters are clearing them out pretty well this month.

 

I wonder if the sharpshooter are off the trails and walking on the vegetation? We've been told that's illegal by TPTB at VF.

 

I imagine that they get a special pass to walk where they want to. The deer seem to bunch up around the Artillery Park, the Grand Parade and the meadows in between. I think it would be easier to shoot them there than to stalk them in the woods.

[+WVangler]

There are physical caches at Harpers Ferry National Historic Park and at New River National River in West Virginia. Just sayin'. Both of these caches are 'owned' by ExploreWV which is administered by a state agency (The WV Division of Education and the Arts) so no doubt that had some sway in getting them approved by the NPS.

[+eightwednesday]

WVangler, I know a cacher who has been successful at getting caches in the New River National River area. For that area, you simply need to get permission from the managers of the area, approval of your coordinates, and include educational materials pertinent to the area/location of the cache.

 

It really comes down to the individual managers and the individual parks in the country. Some managers are more progressive than others.