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Puzzle caches spoiled


maxkim

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Is it right to set a puzzle cache, then be told you have to post an attribute which will give the answer to part of the puzzle?? It seems strange to us ie Chirp caches or UV caches. :mad::angry:

 

I'd say it's entirely right. I must admit I'd be more than a little narked if I'd travelled any distance for a cache only to find I couldn't solve it because my GPS wasn't the right model.

 

To me it's no more significant than setting a terrain rating, and I suspect many people would be irritated if they'd planned to do a 1/1 rated cache only to find they couldn't get at it because they needed climbing ropes and a boat.

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Is it right to set a puzzle cache, then be told you have to post an attribute which will give the answer to part of the puzzle?? It seems strange to us ie Chirp caches or UV caches. :mad::angry:

 

Having done this cache this morning (FTF and a very nice prize - :P - thank you very much indeed)

 

I wouldn't class it as a Puzzle, It is (in my opinion) an offset multi which uses the Chirp as its first stage and is unfindable without a compatable GPSr - as such it should (again only my opinion) have the "beacon" atribute on the cache page (as per Groundspeaks recomendation)

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Is it right to set a puzzle cache, then be told you have to post an attribute which will give the answer to part of the puzzle?? It seems strange to us ie Chirp caches or UV caches. :mad::angry:

 

I'd say it's entirely right. I must admit I'd be more than a little narked if I'd travelled any distance for a cache only to find I couldn't solve it because my GPS wasn't the right model.

 

To me it's no more significant than setting a terrain rating, and I suspect many people would be irritated if they'd planned to do a 1/1 rated cache only to find they couldn't get at it because they needed climbing ropes and a boat.

 

(Written before I had read about the beacon attribute). OK, the special tool attribute is applicable here but how far do we go? I certainly don't expect to turn up and solve every puzzle cache on the spot fully accepting that I often need to get out my Wainwright guides, crack a code, do some research on Pokemon characters, etc. in advance. Everything just seems to be dumbed down for some of the iPhone generation who post DNFs because they can't find the box at what turns out to be an Earthcache and have minimum attention spans for solving puzzles.

Edited by MBFace
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Is it right to set a puzzle cache, then be told you have to post an attribute which will give the answer to part of the puzzle?? It seems strange to us ie Chirp caches or UV caches. :mad::angry:

 

Definitely right. If I turned up to do a multi or puzzle (or any other cache) that used a chirp and didn't have the icon for my PQ to ignore it, I would have no hesitation in slapping an SBA on it as it isn't doable for the majority of cachers and also posting a warning to others that it needs special equipment in my log as well

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Is it right to set a puzzle cache, then be told you have to post an attribute which will give the answer to part of the puzzle?? It seems strange to us ie Chirp caches or UV caches. :mad::angry:

 

I'd say it's entirely right. I must admit I'd be more than a little narked if I'd travelled any distance for a cache only to find I couldn't solve it because my GPS wasn't the right model.

 

To me it's no more significant than setting a terrain rating, and I suspect many people would be irritated if they'd planned to do a 1/1 rated cache only to find they couldn't get at it because they needed climbing ropes and a boat.

 

(Written before I had read about the beacon attribute). OK, the special tool attribute is applicable here but how far do we go? I certainly don't expect to turn up and solve every puzzle cache on the spot fully accepting that I often need to get out my Wainwright guides, crack a code, do some research on Pokemon characters, etc. in advance. Everything just seems to be dumbed down for some of the iPhone generation who post DNFs because they can't find the box at what turns out to be an Earthcache and have minimum attention spans for solving puzzles.

 

I think it's fair to assume that a puzzle cache is going to require some thought. But there's a difference between giving it some thought (which I can either do, or decide I don't want to do) and requiring a very specific piece of equipment.

 

If I've correctly solved the puzzle to identify the cache location, or even the starting point for a cache, to then leave me hunting at random because I don't happen to have the right GPS equipment makes the whole thing an exercise in futility. In such a situation you can expect a lot of DNF logs because people without chirp-enabled GPS units won't get the clue and won't even know what they are supposed to be doing.

 

I guess you could sum the whole thing up as giving people a sporting chance, and letting people know in advance if they might as well ignore the cache. I ignore caches that are 5/5 rated because I have neither the equipment nor the skill to retrieve them. In the same way I ignore chirp caches because my GPS doesn't support them. Where's the problem?

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Since it's a puzzle surely it's down to the person trying to solve it to work out wether or not they need to use anything extra or do certain tasks. How much help is given by the person who set it up increases or decreases the difficulty

 

Up to a point I'd agree, but how are you supposed to work out from the cache page that only a certain selection of GPS units will enable you to complete the task? It's one thing to have a fiendishly difficult puzzle but quite another thing to have a puzzle that's solvable only to find you still can't complete the find because you don't have a specific GPS unit.

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Since it's a puzzle surely it's down to the person trying to solve it to work out wether or not they need to use anything extra or do certain tasks. How much help is given by the person who set it up increases or decreases the difficulty

Yes, if someone chooses not to read the cache page or if they've done a PQ into their GPS and chooses not to look at the attributes but just goes off to the coordinates then bad luck!

 

If you want the cache found only using the chirp it must be an 'unknown' type and you must add the beacon attribute so people know. If you make it a traditional or multi cache using a chirp you must have an alternative way of finding it for people who don't have a chirp enabled GPS. For example you could have a straightforward 3 stage multi cache. Container 1 has coords for container 2 which has coords for the final. If you place a chirp by container 1 someone with a chirp enabled GPS could be given the coords for the final and thus save a long walk via container 2. It would then be up to people with a chirp enabled GPS to make sure their GPS was set to recieve a chirp in the hope there was one! The only thing I am not sure about (but will check) is whether you MUST use the beacon attribute or not. The guidance we have for trad/multi caches using a chirp is that the beacon attribute 'should' be added. It doesn't say it 'must' be added. Similarly do you have to say on the description it uses a chirp? I'll get back to you on these two questions.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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The only thing I am not sure about (but will check) is whether you MUST use the beacon attribute or not. The guidance we have for trad/multi caches using a chirp is that the beacon attribute 'should' be added. It doesn't say it 'must' be added. Similarly do you have to say on the description it uses a chirp? I'll get back to you on these two questions.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

Thanks for that, our cache has now been added to *mouse*'s UK Chirp bookmark list which is a giveaway if ever there was one... ;) Cheers MaxKim.

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I can see a day in the future, if the chirp thingys take off and become more common, and software is made available for phones to detect the 'cheep', and more people know that such things exist and may or may not be used in the construction of a cache, the rules may be relaxed a little.

It's a long way off but it probably will happen. It will become part of the process to check for chirps at GZ if all other obvious solutions don't work.

 

But at the moment, a chirp is very different to other bits of 'specialist equipment'. In my opinion.

 

I have done caches where you are told that specialist equipment is required and that 2 visits to a cache may be required to complete it. But in all of those, the specialist equipment can either be improvised on site, or is fairly easy to get hold of for a return visit.

 

A £200+ GPS with chirp capabilities is not that easy to get hold of. You can't just ask a mate if he has one in his tool box you can borrow. And even if you know a cacher who has one, will they let you have it for a day to go and find one cache when they might be using it themselves?

 

So to my mind it's the difficulty of getting hold of the kit that's the problem at the moment. But that will change as they become more widely used and phone software is developed.

 

In the meantime, if there are lots of caches out there that don't declare themselves to be 'chirp' caches I can see a lot of frustration.

People will end up hating chirps because they represent just another wasted trip to a cache that they have no way of completing but were not warned about in advance.

And people finding themselves at non chirp caches, getting a bit stuck and thinking "it must be one of those chirp things, lets go home" when in fact it isn't.

 

I have a number of caches on my ignore list. Caches I know I have no chance of getting because I don't do boats, or swimming, or climbing too high up trees.

That's fine, we don't have to find them all. But at least I am warned before going out there, and know in advance that they are ones I am not going to be able to tackle.

 

I look forward to the day when I have chirp software on my phone and can build that possibility into a search. It sounds like great fun.

But until they are in fairly common useage and most folk have reasonably easy access to a device that can receive the signal, I think the declaration needs to be there.

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Your cache is pretty local to me, and I put it on my watchlist because straight away it looked 'interesting'! I figured out from other your cache description that this would be tricky in a way, and something different - didn't take much from the name and description to figure out what it was. I'm in no way annoyed that I don't have the technology for it - it's one of those things, and if I was that bothered about finding it I could try and borrow what I needed. Can't see why people should complain - it's clear from the cache description more than one visit will possible be required.

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Your cache is pretty local to me, and I put it on my watchlist because straight away it looked 'interesting'! I figured out from other your cache description that this would be tricky in a way, and something different - didn't take much from the name and description to figure out what it was. I'm in no way annoyed that I don't have the technology for it - it's one of those things, and if I was that bothered about finding it I could try and borrow what I needed. Can't see why people should complain - it's clear from the cache description more than one visit will possible be required.

cache hunting is with a GPS clues and such are all fun but if u ent got an iphone then with such apps then say so,we'l all stay clear, ;)

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cache hunting is with a GPS clues and such are all fun but if u ent got an iphone then with such apps then say so,we'l all stay clear, :)

 

Could someone translate this for me please? :D

it seams that plp are adding clues to a multi with iphone apps! y? we use a bog strand GPS! no?

Glad that's been clarified.

For some reason, I've suddenly been reminded of Professor Stanley Unwin.

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Since it's a puzzle surely it's down to the person trying to solve it to work out wether or not they need to use anything extra or do certain tasks. How much help is given by the person who set it up increases or decreases the difficulty

Yes, if someone chooses not to read the cache page or if they've done a PQ into their GPS and chooses not to look at the attributes but just goes off to the coordinates then bad luck!

 

If you want the cache found only using the chirp it must be an 'unknown' type and you must add the beacon attribute so people know. If you make it a traditional or multi cache using a chirp you must have an alternative way of finding it for people who don't have a chirp enabled GPS. For example you could have a straightforward 3 stage multi cache. Container 1 has coords for container 2 which has coords for the final. If you place a chirp by container 1 someone with a chirp enabled GPS could be given the coords for the final and thus save a long walk via container 2. It would then be up to people with a chirp enabled GPS to make sure their GPS was set to recieve a chirp in the hope there was one! The only thing I am not sure about (but will check) is whether you MUST use the beacon attribute or not. The guidance we have for trad/multi caches using a chirp is that the beacon attribute 'should' be added. It doesn't say it 'must' be added. Similarly do you have to say on the description it uses a chirp? I'll get back to you on these two questions.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

 

I've sought guidance on this and the beacon attribute must be used on any cache that is using a chirp device as either the only means or one way of finding the cache. You don't have to include information in the description that the cache uses a chirp if you don't want to. The beacon attribute will tell people that it is being used. The 'how' could be up to the finder to work out.

I hope this clarifies things.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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Your cache is pretty local to me, and I put it on my watchlist because straight away it looked 'interesting'! I figured out from other your cache description that this would be tricky in a way, and something different - didn't take much from the name and description to figure out what it was. I'm in no way annoyed that I don't have the technology for it - it's one of those things, and if I was that bothered about finding it I could try and borrow what I needed. Can't see why people should complain - it's clear from the cache description more than one visit will possible be required.

cache hunting is with a GPS clues and such are all fun but if u ent got an iphone then with such apps then say so,we'l all stay clear, :)

 

Pardon? Not sure what this means or how it responds to what I said?

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Perhaps we are using the common 'Puzzle' name for these caches, but from memory they are mystery caches, which is a coverall for these caches. I have done them where you have to solve a problem to get the coordinates. This is what I would refer to as a 'Puzzle' cache.

 

Equally I have done bonus caches, which have required reading coordinates off a travelbug, or collecting the parts of the coordinates from other caches. There are no puzzles included in these variety of mystery caches, just the challenge of collecting this information.

 

Night caches also are often in the 'puzzle' category. The phrase 'night cache' indicates the need for a torch, and as such this should be indicated, I would be miffed if I turned up to find a cache and once at GZ realised I needed a specialised piece of kit. If I were looking for a chirp based cache (not having a chirp enabled GPSr) I would be very upset. These things should be mentioned in the rubric

 

Lets leave the Puzzle to be a subset of Mystery caches.

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If the cache is a diff5 puzzle cache I see no need to enter an attribute regarding the chirp device as long as you are able to work this out from the puzzle.. :angry:

 

I agree.

 

If the OP's cache is the one I am thinking of I realised straight away from the page what I would be looking for even without said attribute. I would not be able to do the cache without begging or borrowing the required equipment, that's not really a problem there are many caches where specialist tools are required.

 

The difficulty and terrain level of a cache indicate that it may take more than one trip and specialist equipment is required. Part of this is surely the persons ingenuity in obtaining the right equipment?

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