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If you choose to make a game out of being FTF on new geocaches, that's fine, but it's completely unreasonable to assume that others are doing so as well.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to be courteous to other cachers and to expect the same of them. I don't play the FTF game anymore, but on the rare occasions I get one I make sure to log it asap, and I don't think it's some terrible burden for others to do so as well.

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If you choose to make a game out of being FTF on new geocaches, that's fine, but it's completely unreasonable to assume that others are doing so as well.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to be courteous to other cachers and to expect the same of them. I don't play the FTF game anymore, but on the rare occasions I get one I make sure to log it asap, and I don't think it's some terrible burden for others to do so as well.

 

My ASAP and your ASAP may be two whole different things. I'm not going to rearrange my schedule to log my caches. I will log them as I usually do and when I usually. If that means I can't get around to it for a few days or weeks that's just the reality of it.

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I've not been FTF yet, since they get found within 30 minutes of posting most of the time around here, and usually at dawn or in the night. But I rushed out to try and get one, ONE TIME and was 2nd to find, which was kinda thrilling just TRYING for it. And they had it logged by the time I got home. Rats, I was hoping to at least be FTL (first to log). :rolleyes:

 

But yeah, it would bother me a lot if someone waited all day long, on purpose to log a FTF. But how would I know, maybe they were just very busy that day?

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If you find a cache and someone else already logged it, did you not still have fun?

Exactly. Perhaps some players are getting too drawn in to this unsanctioned side game, to the point where it has devolved into a competition, replete with all the entitlement attitudes usually present in competitive activities. If I see a new cache published, and it looks like something I would enjoy, (AKA: out in the woods somewhere), and I'm not doing something else more important, I'll go hunt for it. As I have gotten fairly good at judging the proverbial book by its cover, it's likely that I will have a good time doing so. When I get to ground zero, my excitement goes up just a bit, as I commence my hunt, then I congratulate myself when I locate it. All these positive emotions occur before I ever open the cache. When I do open it, the presence of another signature in the logbook will not detract one iota from my hike, my search or my find.

 

If my name happens to be first, kewl! If not, kewl! I still had fun. When I get home, (which may be many, many hours later, as my jaunts through the woods are often pretty extensive affairs), if I'm not too tired, and not too sore, I'll take a shower, grab a bite to eat, fire up the Dell and log my find. Usually. There are about 3 or 4 dozen caches that I've found, but never logged, as I follow Thumper's theory of, "If you can't say nuthin' nice, don't say nuthin' at all". Since I prefer to be reasonably honest in my logs, if a cache sucks so bad that there is absolutely nothing nice I can say about it, I simply don't log it. Ever. Of these 3 or 4 dozen caches, at least 3 were FTFs.

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When I go out looking for caches, and I know it will be a while (more than a couple hours) before I can get to a computer, I will log it with my phone, especially if I am looking for 3 or more before I can get to a computer... this way I don't "forget" which ones I have found.... Also, if I happen to be a ftf a cache, I would just note it in the log.... I don't care where my name is in the online log entry....

Edited by ChrisEMT1
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Several people have referred to the FTF chase as being a side game, maybe a game within a game and I think that's a good description. But as a side game, played by some, it can be rewarding to those that play it. What's so wrong with a side game? Please don't hate because some of us might like to play this game within the game. Its a bit of a friendly rivalry between cachers in an area. It's something fun to talk about at gatherings, how the guy across the table beat ya by just a few seconds. Then everyone can laugh about it and order another round.

 

I certainly do not expect the online logs to be up to date with the paper logs. Unless everyone is carrying iPhones, you have to expect a delay. I mean, what if the FTF cache is found early in the morning? It is reasonable to think someone will quit their caching day to run home and log a find. No way! That would be nutz.

I've found many a cache with no online logs and half a dozen paper logs earlier in the same day. I still had the joy of opening a cache and signing the log and that's what counts.

 

I would be annoyed though, if I thought a cacher was purposely not logging an FTF just to trick people. That sounds like somebody just being mean for no good reason. I've never seen this happen. I can't imagine any of the local FTF hounds to do this.

 

A potential FTF might get me to hunt for that cache sooner than I might otherwise, but it is still a cache and if it looks interesting I will look for it. A find is a find, whether I am 1st to find or 100th to find. I've seen a few "second (or third or whatever) to find, first to log". No real bragging rights with that though I think. Well, maybe there is, like fishermen talking about the one that got away. :rolleyes:

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Why is this an issue?

 

If you find a cache and someone else already logged it, did you not still have fun? Does it really matter if the other guy found it five minutes faster or five days/weeks?

 

Amen. I agree with sbell 100% here.

 

And further, do I now have to change the way I enjoy geocaching to condone your competitive little game? I like geocaching precisely because it is not competitive. FTF hounds are always telling the rest of us not to play if we don't like it. Asking everyone else to accommodate your attempt to turn geocaching into some kind of competition is pretty hypocritical.

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What's so wrong with a side game?

I don't think anyone has made any claims to the contrary. Certainly, there has been no "hate", as you claim. If you wish to play that game, by all means, have at it. You can pretend that the FTF is important, and it becomes important, to you. You could also play any number of other side games. You are free to do as you wish, so long as you don't impose upon others. In reading this thread, the only umbrage I see being taken is with those, in the FTF crowd, who expect the rest of us to change how we play, simply to accommodate them. That sort of entitlement is crass, at best.

 

Thanks for that. :)

Uh... You are angry because of these two adventures? Judging by these few quotes from your logs, "an interesting place", "a fantastic trip", "It was fascinating", "I enjoyed the hike", "enjoyed a lunch break there", "a well-chosen spot", "a great view", "Fascinating area", "the only outcropping of volcanic rock in the whole mountain range!", combined with the 48 pictures you took, one might get the impression that you actually enjoyed yourself. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong? If I could stuff myself full of entitlement, perhaps then I could take what appears to be two absolutely amazing journeys, and whine because there was another signature on the logs. :anicute:

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I'm not into numbers or FTF's, but when I am FTF I wait for another user to log their find first. We used a "Newbies" account once and posted, Thanks for the cache, will rehide soon and post coordinates. We just did it to be silly, you should have seen the emails that other cachers sent the account. The next person that found it posted that the cache was in place. The coordinates were off quite a bit, so we reaveraged them and posted that we had re-hid the cache at the listed coordinates. I am also bad about listing ammo can hides, if my listing does not have a container size listed, or state on the cache page it is a 7.62mm or .50 cal, it is likely a .177 cal pellet gun ammo can. Have fun, make geocaching more interesting. :):anicute:

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If you find a cache and someone else already logged it, did you not still have fun?
It really depends on my mood. Sometimes it's about the journey and the location, other times it might definitely *not* be about those things but is about the hide and the camo (several in some questionable neighborhoods in Queens and Brooklyn fall under this category). Sometimes I'm in the mood for a friendly "race", sometimes I'm not. People often say on these boards that everyone likes different flavors of ice cream; I find that I like different flavors of ice cream on different days myself.

 

Perhaps some players are getting too drawn in to this unsanctioned side game, to the point where it has devolved into a competition, replete with all the entitlement attitudes usually present in competitive activities... the only umbrage I see being taken is with those, in the FTF crowd, who expect the rest of us to change how we play, simply to accommodate them. That sort of entitlement is crass, at best.
And further, do I now have to change the way I enjoy geocaching to condone your competitive little game? ... Asking everyone else to accommodate your attempt to turn geocaching into some kind of competition is pretty hypocritical.
I enjoy going for FTFs in my neighborhood, but I don't think it's corrupted with entitlement or hypocrisy. I'd prefer for people to place containers before submitting them for publication. I'd prefer for people not to go out of their way to withhold logs (i.e., change their behavior, just to affect someone else's side game). But I don't expect folks to rush home and log just because they happened to be first on a new listing, any more than I expect a CO to feel his D/T ratings are locked in place just because someone else decided to use it for a Fizzy grid.

 

I like to wait to log an online find for the FTF to do it first, but if it's been a little while I'll sometimes post a note to the cache page as a courtesy to other cachers.

 

It's just a bit annoying if you've say, climbed a mountain or hiked for two days to a potential FTF, only to find the signature of somebody who'd found the cache a year earlier without bothering to log it online.
I have a couple of friends who never log anything online. There are some who feel that an online log is owed to the CO in consideration for the cache being placed in the first place, but I'm not in that camp. If someone doesn't log caches for some reason - doesn't feel the need to validate his experience electronically, doesn't want to say something publicly negative, etc. - I can work around that. I'll be honest that I'd be a little bummed if the only reason someone didn't log it was because he wanted to affect other folks' side games.

 

It's something fun to talk about at gatherings, how the guy across the table beat ya by just a few seconds. Then everyone can laugh about it and order another round.
One of my very best friends in caching I first met on FTF hunts, where, usually, he would be the guy beating me by a few minutes. It's pretty much the only time I get to meet other cachers on the trail (which I like to do) - a new listing is one of the only times I can predict a pretty good probability of meeting other cachers.
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My ASAP and your ASAP may be two whole different things. I'm not going to rearrange my schedule to log my caches. I will log them as I usually do and when I usually. If that means I can't get around to it for a few days or weeks that's just the reality of it.

 

If you have time to create pocket queries and download gpx files and load them into your gps and go geocaching, then you have time to take a minute and write a quicky log. You have the time, you just choose not to take it. And that's your choice, but let's be honest about the reality of it.

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My ASAP and your ASAP may be two whole different things. I'm not going to rearrange my schedule to log my caches. I will log them as I usually do and when I usually. If that means I can't get around to it for a few days or weeks that's just the reality of it.

 

If you have time to create pocket queries and download gpx files and load them into your gps and go geocaching, then you have time to take a minute and write a quicky log. You have the time, you just choose not to take it. And that's your choice, but let's be honest about the reality of it.

 

I don't run PQ's. Ok that's a lie I did 2 in June for a trip but other wise do not run PQ's. I don't cache daily. I plan my caching trips well in advance and load the GPS at those times. Not in the morning or the night after I get home. I do have a job and responsibilities that take precedence over my logging my finds which I typically get to in a week but dude this is merely a hobby for me. Something to do in my FREE time. I do not schedule time outside of going on the actual trip to do this.

 

And I certainly will not stop doing something in my real, non-hobby, life because someone thinks I need to log online faster.

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Several people have referred to the FTF chase as being a side game, maybe a game within a game and I think that's a good description. But as a side game, played by some, it can be rewarding to those that play it. What's so wrong with a side game? Please don't hate because some of us might like to play this game within the game. Its a bit of a friendly rivalry between cachers in an area. It's something fun to talk about at gatherings, how the guy across the table beat ya by just a few seconds. Then everyone can laugh about it and order another round.

 

That's fine. In return, please don't assume that everybody wants to be part of the side game.

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My ASAP and your ASAP may be two whole different things. I'm not going to rearrange my schedule to log my caches. I will log them as I usually do and when I usually. If that means I can't get around to it for a few days or weeks that's just the reality of it.

 

If you have time to create pocket queries and download gpx files and load them into your gps and go geocaching, then you have time to take a minute and write a quicky log. You have the time, you just choose not to take it. And that's your choice, but let's be honest about the reality of it.

 

Some people don't want to litter the site with short logs, and prefer to wait until they have time to write good logs.

 

Some people use the same PQ for long periods of time.

 

Some people don't use PQs at all.

 

Let's be honest about the reality of it - we don't all cache the same way.

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Ooooh. I was first to find on several caches... I didn't include FTF in my log, is that a boo boo?

 

 

 

:anicute:

 

That's up to you.

My FTF game is if my boots are on or off. If I'm settled down for the night and an email says that new cache just went live, well, have at it boys.

 

If I do get a FTF, I usually post

:):) FTF :D:unsure:

I'm not trying to stick it into anyone's face. I'm simply trying to draw attention to my accomplishment.

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Why is this an issue?

 

If you find a cache and someone else already logged it, did you not still have fun? Does it really matter if the other guy found it five minutes faster or five days/weeks?

 

Amen. I agree with sbell 100% here.

 

And further, do I now have to change the way I enjoy geocaching to condone your competitive little game? I like geocaching precisely because it is not competitive. FTF hounds are always telling the rest of us not to play if we don't like it. Asking everyone else to accommodate your attempt to turn geocaching into some kind of competition is pretty hypocritical.

 

Interesting. When I get notice of a new cache, I either go for it, or I go to bed. If I go to bed, I'll keep an eye on the listing. It is always the same cachers that show up en-mass, for the new cache. Sometimes 25 in a day.

 

I prefer to wait a week and give the neighbors some time to settle down.

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Why is this an issue?

It seems that the forum is going a bit crazy

 

I went on a FTF hunt a week ago. I arrived at a park, 3 miles away, that I never knew existed.

 

I found the cache, and when I found the log, I realized it had been sighed ten minutes earlier.

 

I just laughed and grinned. It was their first FTF and I'm happy for them

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I don't go out of my way for a FTF. Around here it might be a while before somebody attempts a FTF on an easy hide. One of my newer hides just had a FTF - 4 months after I placed it! (I admit that this one wasn't easy to reach) There's a couple of nearby 12 day old hides that still need FTF's on the shoulder of a major highway in this area. I DNF'd one of them a couple of days ago but may try again in a few days. I'm the only attempt on this hide and the other has no logged attempts.

 

Still, I think I might have a few hundred FTF's but good luck seeing that in my logs. I almost never state that I had the FTF. I'm in this game for the hunt and for the hikes and vistas. My logs will tell the story. I once traveled over 400 miles to do ONE cache hidden in the mountains. It was a great adventure with the last 3 hrs of night hiking done with a penlight bushwhacking all the way. I was home by 3am and went to work the next morning at 6am. I have very fond memories of this hunt. The cache? - I logged a DNF.

 

My logging is usually done within a day or two including any FTF's. I could never understand the reasoning behind a time stamp on the FTF. The first name on the log sheet is the FTF. Simple, isn't it.

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Rant On: One of the things that irritates me is someone finding a FTF and then waiting several days to post their find. :anicute:

 

On more than one occasion I have been second to find and can understand the logs not being updated for an hour or so, but for the find not to posted as found in a timely manner even days later and in one case over 2 weeks before the finder posted his FTF log is inconsiderate of other cachers.

 

Ok Rant OFF.

 

Even if a cache has gone unclaimed for a few days I assume someone is going to find it five minutes before I get there. Five minutes, 2 weeks - the result is the same.

 

The only complaint I see here is that you had the expectation to be first and you feel you were tricked. Maybe you should rethink your approach so the inevitable angst that goes along with the FTF game doesn't impact your enjoyment. If you are going to get upset over someone's behavior. I'm not sure what you expect the rest of us to do about it.

 

I say ignore the angst and in the long run you'll have more fun and satisfaction than any FTF could give you.

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My pet peeve is bad spelling.

 

Anyone else?

come on, what did this add to the conversation?

Don't be a jerk. If you don't have anything legitimate to add then don't add anything at all.

 

I can understand the OP's frustration but I am pretty sure that the online log does not matter, its only the physical log that matters.

 

legitimate? how is the OP even legitimate?

 

the next thing they are going to complain about is the COs not recognizing them as "FTF" on the cache listing.... or the person that is FTF didn't use enough exclamation marks or smilies in their postings.

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I could never understand the reasoning behind a time stamp on the FTF. The first name on the log sheet is the FTF. Simple, isn't it.

Back when I was a bit more enthusiastic in my FTF'ing, I was once asked at an event by the wife of a caching team if I could add the time to my logs, so that they could know by how long they missed me. They were pretty nice about it, and it seemed like a simple enough request, so I was happy to oblige. I hadn't known anyone cared, but when I found out it felt like a courteous gesture.

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My pet peeve is bad spelling.

 

Anyone else?

come on, what did this add to the conversation?

Don't be a jerk. If you don't have anything legitimate to add then don't add anything at all.

 

I can understand the OP's frustration but I am pretty sure that the online log does not matter, its only the physical log that matters.

 

legitimate? how is the OP even legitimate?

 

the next thing they are going to complain about is the COs not recognizing them as "FTF" on the cache listing.... or the person that is FTF didn't use enough exclamation marks or smilies in their postings.

 

While maybe not as vehement about it, I have to agree with BullDogDlitz. There really was nothing really more "legitimate" about the OP than AZcachemeister's post.

 

Why complain about someone not posting their find quickly since not doing so only impacts them, not any subsequent finders? If I am the 32nd finder it is every bit as significant as the person who is first to find it after it is hidden. No difference. I was brought to the intended location, presumably had fun looking for the cache and my name appears in the log.

 

I don't get/do the FTF thing. I also don't trade swag. As a result, when I have stumbled upon an unfound cache, I leave the FTF prize, whatever it is. Not only have I had complaints form subsequent finders for not taking it, twice I have had someone in the area find the cache after me and drop off the item at my office. I appreciate the sentiment, however I left it because 1. it holds no significance for me over any other swag in any other cache and 2. I know there are many who enjoy swag, so I left it for them to have their fun.

 

Since I don't get to cache as much as I like, we generally go out on 50, 60 or even 100 cache runs. Sitting down and logging them right away is not a priority since I have a life outside of caching. Logging online is something done for my benefit, documenting my experience. As such, when I get to logging a find, whether it be a week, a month or a year, is dictated by me and is well within the guidelines put forth by Groundspeak. If I happen to be the first to find a cache after it is hidden, when i log it does not impact that fact or anyone else who may find it.

Edited by baloo&bd
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My pet peeve is bad spelling.

 

Anyone else?

come on, what did this add to the conversation?

Don't be a jerk. If you don't have anything legitimate to add then don't add anything at all.

 

I can understand the OP's frustration but I am pretty sure that the online log does not matter, its only the physical log that matters.

 

legitimate? how is the OP even legitimate?

 

the next thing they are going to complain about is the COs not recognizing them as "FTF" on the cache listing.... or the person that is FTF didn't use enough exclamation marks or smilies in their postings.

 

While maybe not as vehement about it, I have to agree with BullDogDlitz. There really was nothing really more "legitimate" about the OP than AZcachemeister's post.

The reason that the OP's post was more legitimate is because it was on-topic.
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when I have stumbled upon an unfound cache, I leave the FTF prize, whatever it is. Not only have I had complaints form subsequent finders for not taking it

Wow, that's interesting. What was the basis for them (the complaints)?

 

I used to love FTF prizes. Then I started feeling a little self-conscious about taking a lot of them (I went through a real FTF phase a while back) and started leaving them for the next finder. Then my wife gently suggested that it might get taken the wrong way by the CO, like they were offering me a gift and I refused because I didn't like it or something. I hadn't thought about it that way; since then I usually go out of my way to say something nice and complimentary about any prizes in the cache, even if (or especially if) I'm leaving them for the next finder to enjoy.

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Let's be honest about the reality of it - we don't all cache the same way.

 

Nope, we don't. And I wish cachers would me more conscious about those differences and how they affect other people playing the game. When I place a cache I try to think about how different types of cachers would approach it and design my hide accordingly. When I log a cache I think about the things I noticed that might affect the finder after me, even if they didn't affect me because of the way I cache. I don't really get why certain types of cachers are so indignant and obstinate about the way other cachers play the game and insist on deliberately attempting to obstruct how they play that game. And I don't get why some of those cachers make up strange justifications for that behavior instead of just admitting it.

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Let's be honest about the reality of it - we don't all cache the same way.

 

Nope, we don't. And I wish cachers would me more conscious about those differences and how they affect other people playing the game. When I place a cache I try to think about how different types of cachers would approach it and design my hide accordingly. When I log a cache I think about the things I noticed that might affect the finder after me, even if they didn't affect me because of the way I cache. I don't really get why certain types of cachers are so indignant and obstinate about the way other cachers play the game and insist on deliberately attempting to obstruct how they play that game. And I don't get why some of those cachers make up strange justifications for that behavior instead of just admitting it.

 

I agree

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Nope, we don't. And I wish cachers would me more conscious about those differences and how they affect other people playing the game. When I place a cache I try to think about how different types of cachers would approach it and design my hide accordingly. When I log a cache I think about the things I noticed that might affect the finder after me, even if they didn't affect me because of the way I cache. I don't really get why certain types of cachers are so indignant and obstinate about the way other cachers play the game and insist on deliberately attempting to obstruct how they play that game. And I don't get why some of those cachers make up strange justifications for that behavior instead of just admitting it.

Well said.

 

This is a broad game which covers many styles of play.

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I don't really get why certain types of cachers are so indignant and obstinate about the way other cachers play the game and insist on deliberately attempting to obstruct how they play that game. And I don't get why some of those cachers make up strange justifications for that behavior instead of just admitting it.

Agreed. Perhaps Groundspeak could issue chill pills for the FTF crowd to prevent this behavior? :(

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If you're in my end of town, you'd better be prepared to accept the fact that I log caches when I get home

 

Why do people keep saying things like this? Has anyone ever expressed the expectation that a cacher should stop his caching trip and immediately go home to log a cache?

 

A quick search of the forums will result in a significant amount of FTF-Hound-wannabes whining about various things such as..

 

1. Leave FTF for me too.

2. How come I don't get instant notifications.

3. Log FTF right away so my feelings don't get hurt.

 

As said before, I'll say it again. If you want to be part of the FTF game, stop yer whining and develop your own strategy. As for logging, I log FTFs just like any other cache.. when I am good and ready. If you (the collective) think that's being uncontientious, too bad. Call me all the names you like. Whining says more about the whiner than it does about the FTF-hound.

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I don't really get why certain types of cachers are so indignant and obstinate about the way other cachers play the game and insist on deliberately attempting to obstruct how they play that game. And I don't get why some of those cachers make up strange justifications for that behavior instead of just admitting it.

Agreed. Perhaps Groundspeak could issue chill pills for the FTF crowd to prevent this behavior? :blink:

And some cheese for all the whiners about the FTF crowd. :):(

Edited by the4dirtydogs
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