Am I "in bad form"

[+jhuoni]

Here's the story...

 

After traveling to the end of the earth to find a cache, I can't find it. I get back home and bring it up on Geocaching.com and see that the last time it was found was a YEAR ago, and there are 3000 DNF's logged. I now know to check the logs BEFORE I set out. (and that's what those little red boxes on GSAK mean.

 

I'm a newbie, only 3 months in, with just over 70 finds.

 

Here's my question or you might say retraction:

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

It would read something like this:

I'm trying to clean up the caches in the area.

This cache hasn't been found since January 2008.

Please verify it is still there or archive it.

 

Then after realizing that someone might mistake me for GeoCache Staff, I added: I am just a cacher who is tired of caches that are no longer there. I am not GeoCache Staff.

 

What do you think? Is it in bad taste, or is it something that needs to be done?

 

If this sounds familiar, I am also the guy who was complaining about TB's and GeoCoins showing in cache inventories and they have not been there for ages.

[+popokiiti]

I think after my DNF log I would place a Needs Maintenance (NM) log. I would put the cache on my watchlist, plus a sticky near my computer and if nothing is done in about 6 weeks, then I would consider the NA. We tried to find a cache that was a three hour round trip away. It was never found, even by cachers with finds in the 1500, and 2000+ range. No action was taken with the DNFs or the NMs that were placed. Unable to contact the cache owner directly, I eventually placed the NA log.

I would go the NM route first in this case, maybe also ask the cache owner if they can check on it? My friend's husband recently got a FTF on a cache that was also a long hike and climb...it had been in place for about a year. Could be that this cache doesn't get the attention of the less fit - like me!

[+BlueDeuce]

To be blunt, we'll all new. Occasionally you can find someone who is less new than others.

 

Deciding that a cache needs to be archived takes a bit of insight and experience. It's okay to ask in the forum, but sometimes you can get a better answer from a regional cacher. Contact a long time cacher in your area and see what they suggest. There might be a bit more background information that you need to know about the cache in question.

[+Prime Suspect]

You can post a NA log, if you actually looked for the cache and didn't find it (i.e., don't be an armchair cache cop), and there is a continuous string of DNFs well out of proportion to the Difficulty level. An exception to the latter would be if you know it's gone, because you've found it before, or otherwise have concrete evidence.

[mtbikernate]

NM first, NA later. I have posted a few NM logs. Where I live now, it seems hurricane/storm damage and forest fires take out a lot of caches and there are some CO's who don't pay attention to the logs (and it seems reviewers don't pay a lot of attention to my area). On of my NM's got addressed recently (archived b/c the cache was burned up), but I'm keeping an eye on a couple others. I'd like for someone else to try for them before I try again and/or post a NA log.

[+jhuoni]

Here's my question or you might say retraction:

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

After only three responses, I went back and changed the NA to NOTE. You can't change a NA to a NM.

Only question now is: Does the CO get then NOTE or do they have to read the log to see it?

 

Just like I have said in the past, I might be getting a little OCD here, but the caches in question were in town or in highly muggled areas.

 

Your patience is appreciated, I'm just trying to make a perfect world more perfect.

[+BlueDeuce]

Changing the Post/Note/NM/NA doesn't resend the email.

 

The question you have is what should you have posted on the cache. I don't know, what cache is it?

[+dfx]

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

After only three responses, I went back and changed the NA to NOTE. You can't change a NA to a NM.

Only question now is: Does the CO get then NOTE or do they have to read the log to see it?

a CO gets an email for every new log posted. they will NOT get an email when the log type for an existing log is changed or the log otherwise edited. this is also true for every user who has the cache on their watchlist.

 

the thing with the NA log is that not only CO and watching users get the log as email, the reviewers do also. you only wanna do that if you really know for sure that there's a serious issue.

[jholly]

Here's my question or you might say retraction:

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

After only three responses, I went back and changed the NA to NOTE. You can't change a NA to a NM.

Only question now is: Does the CO get then NOTE or do they have to read the log to see it?

 

Just like I have said in the past, I might be getting a little OCD here, but the caches in question were in town or in highly muggled areas.

 

Your patience is appreciated, I'm just trying to make a perfect world more perfect.

NA logs are a bit like toothpaste. Once you squeeze the tube you can't put it back. As soon as you click the submit button on a NA log an email is sent to both the cache owner and the reviewers. You can change your log and the CO can delete your log but the email has already been sent.

 

If the cache is being found on a regular basis and you DNF it, you certainly should not NA it. If you went looking for a cache that has not been found for a while, with no DNF's, and you DNF it, I would not submit an archive log. If your looking for a cache that is less than 3 and it has a string of DNF's with no finds I would DNF it and also submit a NM asking the CO to check the cache. If it seems the CO is absent, then after 30 days or so I might submit a NA.

 

Just because *you* did not find it, it does not mean the cache is missing. I've DNF'ed a number of caches and a few weeks later I walk right up to the "missing" cache. I have a guard rail cache that had a string of four DNF's and then a NM. When I checked it was right where it was suppose to be. After my owner maintenance log it started being found again.

[Andronicus]

Here's the story...

 

After traveling to the end of the earth to find a cache, I can't find it. I get back home and bring it up on Geocaching.com and see that the last time it was found was a YEAR ago, and there are 3000 DNF's logged. I now know to check the logs BEFORE I set out. (and that's what those little red boxes on GSAK mean.

 

I'm a newbie, only 3 months in, with just over 70 finds.

 

Here's my question or you might say retraction:

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

It would read something like this:

I'm trying to clean up the caches in the area.

This cache hasn't been found since January 2008.

Please verify it is still there or archive it.

 

Then after realizing that someone might mistake me for GeoCache Staff, I added: I am just a cacher who is tired of caches that are no longer there. I am not GeoCache Staff.

 

What do you think? Is it in bad taste, or is it something that needs to be done?

 

If this sounds familiar, I am also the guy who was complaining about TB's and GeoCoins showing in cache inventories and they have not been there for ages.

That sounds like a perfect cache to slap a NA log on. You don't need that fancy log you showed us. Just say something like: Looks like this one is done. The reviewer will eventialy flag it and deal with it.

 

Remember that when you post a NA log, you are not archiving the cache. You are just posting your opinion, and sending a flag to the CO and the reviewer. The only one who can archive it is one of those two.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Andronicus

[+Ike 13]

There is no black and white, but only gray. In this specific case (not found in over a year with multiple DNF's from multiple cachers) I think a NA log was fine. Some would go the NM wait a month then a NA, but this cache does not beg for that.

 

As long as you don't go slapping NA's on caches that have been disabled for only 3 weeks owned by an active cacher who is known for maintaining their caches then I won't call you the cache police. (This happened to me recently just because a local cacher didn't want my caches that they hadn't found or even looked for on their map)

[+briansnat]

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

It would read something like this:

I'm trying to clean up the caches in the area.

This cache hasn't been found since January 2008.

Please verify it is still there or archive it.

 

While your intentions are good, leaving archive notes like this may generate some ill will. It is not your place to clean up caches. That is the local reviewer's job.

 

If you look for a cache and have a reasonable cause to believe it is missing, log a DNF and a NM. If, after 4-6 weeks the owner has taken no action then go ahead and log a NA, but please spare the language that makes it seem as if you are on some sort of crusade.

[+ngrrfan]

After spinning my wheels going to caches which aren't there any more, should I send an ARCHIVE note to the CO?

 

It would read something like this:

I'm trying to clean up the caches in the area.

This cache hasn't been found since January 2008.

Please verify it is still there or archive it.

 

While your intentions are good, leaving archive notes like this may generate some ill will. It is not your place to clean up caches. That is the local reviewer's job.

 

If you look for a cache and have a reasonable cause to believe it is missing, log a DNF and a NM. If, after 4-6 weeks the owner has taken no action then go ahead and log a NA, but please spare the language that makes it seem as if you are on some sort of crusade.

I agree with briansnat. A note like what you are proposing reeks of "cache police" or a self appointed reviewer. My initial reaction after reading it was "Who the heck does this person think they are?"

 

It isn't your job to "clean up the caches in the area", that is the job of the local reviewer.

[+Ecylram]

It isn't your job to "clean up the caches in the area", that is the job of the local reviewer.

The reviewer isn't going to know there is a problem unless it is reported.

[+Ecylram]

As someone who has posted NA's and NM's, my advise is for newbies is to avoid posting NA's. Cache owners don't put a whole lot of credence in newbie NA's and it can create some bad blood with cacher's you might meet later.

 

I'd suggest posting NM's, instead of NA's, asking for the CO to check on the cache. Even better, send a private note to the CO about the cache. If there is no response from the note and/or no response from the NM, give it a couple of months then file a NA.

 

So you know...

 

A while back I posted a NA on a cache that was pretty obviously missing. It had 11 months of DNF's (on a 1.5/1.5 that previously had a long string of finds) and an unanswered NM from 9 months before. The cache owner took great offense to the NA and deleted my DNF & NA. After several DNF's later, the CO eventually disabled the cache. Moral of the story...even if you're doing everything right, a CO may still get upset with you. Just be prepared.

[+kunarion]

As someone who has posted NA's and NM's, my advise is for newbies is to avoid posting NA's. Cache owners don't put a whole lot of credence in newbie NA's and it can create some bad blood with cacher's you might meet later.

 

I'd suggest posting NM's, instead of NA's, asking for the CO to check on the cache. Even better, send a private note to the CO about the cache. If there is no response from the note and/or no response from the NM, give it a couple of months then file a NA.

^

This. Just state the facts ("log book is moldy and soaked" or "container is full of cigarette butts" or "can't find it" or whatever), and at most, make a NM. If there are no other mentions of cache problems in the logs, the CO may not even know. If everyone DNFs it, there's a psychological thing where it will tend to get more DNFs, yet it may still be there just fine.

 

I almost never do a NM, due to some caches being somewhat grandfathered in that condition. They have a certain heritage of "the log is soaking wet", and hundreds of finders before me seem to have not considered it a real issue.

 

But you certainly can make a NM if it obviously Needs Maintenance. Make your entry light and positive, as if you assume the Cache Owner has been dropping by to spit-polish it every day, and it somehow developed a major problem this very minute (which, on any hint of an issue, our attentive CO is of course gonna rush out and fix immediately).

 

Regardless of how long you've been caching, and regardless of whether or not any given container still exists, if you see 3000 DNFs in a row, don't expect to find it.

Edited October 28, 2010 by kunarion

[+The Blorenges]

If it needs some sort of maintenance, post a NM log, letting the cache owner know what needs doing.

 

If there are a lot of DNFs, over a considerable time and the owner doesn't appear to have done any check on the cache, post a NM asking if the owner could kindly check the cache is still in place.

 

Put cache on watch.

 

If nothing useful/helpful/constructive happens over the next 2 months and the issues remain, post a NA.

 

The final decision lies with the reviewer. Not all reviewers have time to look out for every multi-DNF cache and/or long-time disabled cache within their areas but they will be notified of a NA and make an assessment of the on-going situation and act accordingly.

 

It's then out of your hands.

 

Forget it. You've done your bit.

 

MrsB

[+J the Goat]

I'd like to see the cache listing. I highly doubt it has 3000 DNF's and yours is the first NM or NA log.

 

I'll just come out and say it. You had no business posting an NA log so soon. The suggestions above about a need maintainence logs are good ones, but just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it needs to be shut down. It's not your job to "police" caches. Don't do that. While the final result may have ended up the same, the route you took is the wrong one.

[+jhuoni]

I'd like to see the cache listing. I highly doubt it has 3000 DNF's and yours is the first NM or NA log.

 

I'll just come out and say it. You had no business posting an NA log so soon. The suggestions above about a need maintainence logs are good ones, but just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it needs to be shut down. It's not your job to "police" caches. Don't do that. While the final result may have ended up the same, the route you took is the wrong one.

 

Mr. Goat:

 

No, there weren't 3000 DNF's, I will admit that was an LARGE EXAGERATION. I also was looking at time frame between last FOUND and the the date I DNF'd it.

 

I really don't want to single any caches out but if I am being assassinated:

 

WEST BOUND PICNIC AREA ON HIGHWAY 60 GC15A6W

FIRST CATTLE IN TEXAS PANHANDLE I I GC1Z29R

Deaf Smith Milky Way GC1KX6H

Deaf Smith Prayin an a Ropin GC1KX5V

The Biggest Texan GCVV98 - Archived

 

If you want to see what I've been up to, just check my profile. (Which I'm sure you have) I don't go to a cache and because I can't find it, mark it for NEEDS ARCHIVE. I will usually wait until my second trip to even mark it as a DNF. I guess my my question was more complex that I explained. I though maybe there were others who felt the same way.

 

******************

I appologize to anyone I have offended here. I will just keep my mouth shut, burn my spare log sheets for caches that have full logs, assume a different name and disppear into the mist.

 

Geocaching was fun until I TRIED TO HELP. Must be me.

John

[+jhuoni]

To be blunt, we'll all new. Occasionally you can find someone who is less new than others.

 

Deciding that a cache needs to be archived takes a bit of insight and experience. It's okay to ask in the forum, but sometimes you can get a better answer from a regional cacher. Contact a long time cacher in your area and see what they suggest. There might be a bit more background information that you need to know about the cache in question.

 

Don't know any one locally, just moved to this area. Plus I think I may have P.O.'s the locals by marking thier caches as NA... Gotten two nasty emails all ready.

 

Just goes to show you, don't fix it if it ain't broken.

 

To answer my own question: Yes, John. You are in bad form for marking caches NA.

(Even when some of them need to be)

[+jhuoni]

It isn't your job to "clean up the caches in the area", that is the job of the local reviewer.

The reviewer isn't going to know there is a problem unless it is reported.

 

That is my point exactly. How many reviewers are there? I'm sure that they have lives outside of caching.

[+ngrrfan]

It isn't your job to "clean up the caches in the area", that is the job of the local reviewer.

The reviewer isn't going to know there is a problem unless it is reported.

 

That is my point exactly. How many reviewers are there? I'm sure that they have lives outside of caching.

It's all in the wording.

 

"I tried finding this cache, even though it hasn't been found in several months. I think it needs looking into." and use the NM, or if that has previously been used then use the NA.

 

Use wording that leaves room for you to be wrong. Then it is up to the reviewer to determine what should be done.

[+J the Goat]

I'd like to see the cache listing. I highly doubt it has 3000 DNF's and yours is the first NM or NA log.

 

I'll just come out and say it. You had no business posting an NA log so soon. The suggestions above about a need maintainence logs are good ones, but just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it needs to be shut down. It's not your job to "police" caches. Don't do that. While the final result may have ended up the same, the route you took is the wrong one.

 

Mr. Goat:

 

No, there weren't 3000 DNF's, I will admit that was an LARGE EXAGERATION. I also was looking at time frame between last FOUND and the the date I DNF'd it.

 

I really don't want to single any caches out but if I am being assassinated:

 

WEST BOUND PICNIC AREA ON HIGHWAY 60 GC15A6W

FIRST CATTLE IN TEXAS PANHANDLE I I GC1Z29R

Deaf Smith Milky Way GC1KX6H

Deaf Smith Prayin an a Ropin GC1KX5V

The Biggest Texan GCVV98 - Archived

 

If you want to see what I've been up to, just check my profile. (Which I'm sure you have) I don't go to a cache and because I can't find it, mark it for NEEDS ARCHIVE. I will usually wait until my second trip to even mark it as a DNF. I guess my my question was more complex that I explained. I though maybe there were others who felt the same way.

 

******************

I appologize to anyone I have offended here. I will just keep my mouth shut, burn my spare log sheets for caches that have full logs, assume a different name and disppear into the mist.

 

Geocaching was fun until I TRIED TO HELP. Must be me.

John

 

No offense meant, sorry that my blunt response got to you. You should realize that in asking a question to a bunch of strangers, you're likely to get a response that doesn't go along with your line of thinking. I didn't take a look at your profile; I have no reason to.

 

Saying "here's what I did, and here's the cache in question" isn't singling out a cache. It gives those of us who are trying to answer your question a more complete picture.

 

Hopefully geocaching will stay fun for you. If you let one response to your question in the forums take the fun out of it though.....

 

I hope that was just another exageration.

[+TheLoneGrangers]

I agree with J the goat, being new myself I dont think he meant to offend you, and he is right, showing the more experianced cachers the cache in question is not calling anyone out.

[knowschad]

I really don't want to single any caches out but if I am being assassinated:

<snip>

 

I appologize to anyone I have offended here. I will just keep my mouth shut, burn my spare log sheets for caches that have full logs, assume a different name and disppear into the mist.

 

Geocaching was fun until I TRIED TO HELP. Must be me.

John

Sorry, but I don't see any attempted assassinations here. I see some answers to your question, including some that disagree with you. But if being disagreed with in the forums makes geocaching no fun for you anymore, then there isn't much we can do to help with that.

 

I looked at some (the first three) of the caches that you mentioned. Both cache owners of those three caches have logged in as of yesterday, and one of them has logged caches this month. The other one hasn't logged a find in over a year, but has had a new cache published just last month, so I think it is pretty clear that both are active cachers. Given that, you probably would have been better off at least trying to work through them first before posting multple NA logs. But that's just my opinion.

[+John in Valley Forge]

I'd say you probably jumped the gun on a few. Others look OK.

 

Like someone else said, you probably didn't make a lot of friends locally doing it.

 

Live and learn. Move on and find some more. Let things blow over.