The fee on PA state parks IS causing issues.

[+Coldgears]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

[+briansnat]

A $25 fee is absurd. It certainly would cause issues with me. Let's see, I have about 150 caches in state parks and forests. Add that up.

[+addisonbr]

Let's see, I have about 150 caches in state parks and forests. Add that up.

They probably did

[+DonB]

Don't feel bad, Wisconsin is one of the highest taxed states in the US and on top of it all we have to pay a yearly fee of $25.00 if we want to use our state parks.

[+weathernowcast]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

 

Where is this place they charge $25 per entrance?

[+briansnat]

Let's see, I have about 150 caches in state parks and forests. Add that up.

They probably did

 

If they think it's going to bring in money, they can think again. If that fee were in place in NJ my 150 number would probably be closer to zero.

 

NC state parks have had a fee for years. Result, there are not many caches in NC state parks.

 

A nominal fee of a few dollars to cover the cost of stickers I can see. $25 is effectively a ban on cache placement. Few people will pay that. Maybe that's their goal.

[+briansnat]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

 

Where is this place they charge $25 per entrance?

 

Not for entrance, for placing a cache.

[+3jokers]

That is just crazy! If it wasn't for geocachers placing cache's in the parks I would probably not visit this places. This just brings more people to the parks.

[+addisonbr]

$25 is effectively a ban on cache placement. Few people will pay that. Maybe that's their goal.

I suspect that's the case. They probably figure that a $25 fee will limit the number of caches, with the added bonus of making it likely that the average cache will be better thought-out.

[+Eagle56]

I agree the addition of a $25 fee might help eliminate some of the caches that are appearing and the over running of the parks, but i also believe that its going to affect the sport of Geocaching in a negative way, also if this starts to catch on people my stop making new caches.....

[+cerberus1]

There was no "over running" of caches in PA State parks.

DCNR always had a three year time limit on caches within their parks and forests. This supposedly helped "heal" the damage that traffic brings (geotrails.) Guess deer trails aren't the same.

The three year limit alone (and really having to get approval) kept caches within the parks to a minimum.

 

Like others have said, the $25. fee in parks seems to be just another step in keeping 'em out altogether. Or, someone within saw a way to add a coupla bucks to a budget-strapped department.

Either way, $25. (each cache) for three years doesn't seem like a good deal to me.

 

Supposedly there's a way to "work off" the fee, by maintaining trails and holding CITO events.

We CITO everywhere we go. Last year CJ sent three trailers of cans to the scrap yard (we use the cash to get kids stuff at events) and can't count the regular garbage we lugged home and paid to haul away.

- Not good enough for them (we checked.)

 

Seems the newer caches now are owned by folks who work within the park system.

'Course it must have been done on their own time. Wonder if they paid the fee...

[+KJcachers]

no fees in Virginia. They understand the income potential to their parks from cachers. In fact a few of my local parks have even hosted M&G events to bring in local cachers to their parks! They do have a 3 year rule on caches in the same spot but you can just move them and update the coordinates when the time comes.

[+Kepper34]

I own property bordering a PA State Park and in response to this unjustified taxation, I am going to place caches about 10 feet onto my property next to the state park border. The only logical way to reach this is by accessing them throught the park. I can thereby circumvent all DCNR rules, regulations, and fees. I believe that will be my suday project!

[+Kepper34]

I may even place a few on the neighbors property! That'll fix em!

Edited November 3, 2010 by Kepper34

[+Renegade Knight]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

 

Seems like their solution would be to replace the original under the original permit. No new fee.

 

If she has a problem though because her new and better spot is too far away. Put her in touch with me. I'll pay her fee. It's probably about time I gave back a little anyway.

[jinxeee]

"The Bureau of State Parks charges a $25.00 fee for placing a geocache on State Park lands. Sponsoring a CITO event or other volunteer effort can often be arranged with the park manager in lieu of this fee. Varies from park to park."

 

I think this would insure quality caches would be placed.

[+Klatch]

"The Bureau of State Parks charges a $25.00 fee for placing a geocache on State Park lands. Sponsoring a CITO event or other volunteer effort can often be arranged with the park manager in lieu of this fee. Varies from park to park."

 

I think this would insure quality caches would be placed.

From what I have seen it has pretty much insured no new caches would be placed in State Parks.

State Game Lands require no permit and have no official policy on geocaching. State Forest (also administered by DCNR) have a permit system, but no fee. Where would you look first to place a geocache in PA?

[Luckless]

When I first started geocaching New York State parks had just created a geocaching policy. When I called the park office I was told a cache would cost $10. There was some confusion on their end with the new policy because there was no fee for placing a cache in New York State Parks. Our reviewer, New York Admin, stepped right up and was able to clear up this mistake. I thought $10 was a lot, but $25-phew! Our caching group has twenty one caches in this park.

The year after I was mistakenly told a cache would cost $10 there was a new park manager in charge. He'd never heard of geocaching- ahha, I got to educate him. He is a very good friend of the geocaching community and recently mentioned his surprise at the number of people who comment on the caches hidden in the park.

[+addisonbr]

"The Bureau of State Parks charges a $25.00 fee for placing a geocache on State Park lands. Sponsoring a CITO event or other volunteer effort can often be arranged with the park manager in lieu of this fee. Varies from park to park."

 

I think this would insure quality caches would be placed.

From what I have seen it has pretty much insured no new caches would be placed in State Parks.

I currently maintain 14 listings. I'd pay $8.33 a year for about 11 of them, I think.

[+Shoob&Sheeb]

We have quite a few on the PA SGL. The game lands for now have no policy. We do disable all caches during bear and rifle deer season to respect the hunters that bought the land. Us being one of them. As far as the 25$ fee the mismanagers are doing the proverbial shot in the foot.

[+John in Valley Forge]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

 

Just curious, which cache/park was it? Are individual park managers enforcing this equally? There seems to be at least some latitude in waiving the fee.

[+emtfire10]

The $25 fee is being applied through all of the State Parks in the Commonwealth of Pa.

 

Just curious, which cache/park was it? Are individual park managers enforcing this equally? There seems to be at least some latitude in waiving the fee.

[+John in Valley Forge]

The $25 fee is being applied through all of the State Parks in the Commonwealth of Pa.

 

Just curious, which cache/park was it? Are individual park managers enforcing this equally? There seems to be at least some latitude in waiving the fee.

 

No, you misunderstand. I am hoping the OP will clarify the source of his original statement. What cache is he talking about that is about to be lost. I was wondering also why the cacher didn't replace their missing cache under their original permit.

If it is a true monetary need situation, I would be willing to pay it for them. I have made this offer in the main Geocaching Topic Thread on this same subject and wish to extend it to this cacher.

[+Coldgears]

Heres the cache.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...62-e59fb757af01

 

I'd recommenced not bothering her. If you do don't mention it was me. Thanks.

[+John in Valley Forge]

There is a local cacher who his a cache in a state park. It went missing before I could find it. She said in the log she was going to place a new, better one. I was really looking foward to this. I e-mailed 6 months later about why it has not been published and she said that she couldn't pay the 25$ fee. Sad, she only hid one ever.

 

The cache you reference was placed in 2003 by a cacher that may have moved from the area. His last log entry on the cache was in 2008. I don't think he still actively caches. I will call him the Natural Cache Owner or NCO.

 

It was then reported DNF on March 7 of this year. Another local cacher, who visitied this cache a few times before adopted it on April 12. This Adoptive Cache Owner, or ACO had no caches of her own placed, although ACO has many many finds (over 700 since 2007). ACO was then contacted by the park rangers that the area the cache was in had been designated as a "Natural Area" and the cache permission revoked. The ACO archived the cache immediately, April 15.

 

The ACO may or may not have actively explored the options of placing a new cache there, I have no way of knowing that.

 

Is it possible that ACO, who has never placed a cache, might have been discouraged by the $25 fee? Sure, it is possible. But there is no mention of it in the logs.

 

I really think this does not rise to the level of proving that the $25 fee is causing problems. I suspect the ACO just decided they did not want to place a cache at all, but that is purely speculation on my part.

[+Coldgears]

I e-mailed her asking why she didn't hide another and she responded, "I had planned on putting another cache in the park but then they went and changed the policy to now charge $25 per cache...such a shame because it is such a great little part with many possibilities.

 

Previous cache is gone.

 

Lisa"

 

So yeah, that's how I know. I didn't just assume.

[+John in Valley Forge]

I e-mailed her asking why she didn't hide another and she responded, "I had planned on putting another cache in the park but then they went and changed the policy to now charge $25 per cache...such a shame because it is such a great little part with many possibilities.

 

Previous cache is gone.

 

Lisa"

 

So yeah, that's how I know. I didn't just assume.

 

Well then my speculation is clearly wrong as you have provided Proof Positive.

[+edscott]

I currently have 9 caches in Pennsylvania State Parks. If I am asked to pay a fee for them they will be archived.

[+ChinCache]

A cache can't be placed there, however it is okay for young adults and teens to drink , do drugs and have sex in that "natural" area when they visit the park with their families.

And before any one says anything I grew up abutting this park. I am thinking of hiding a 25 part multi in a state park so it would equal out to a dollar per stage. I figure if they say it is to insure the integrity of the flora and fuana they should have to earn it.

[+addisonbr]

A cache can't be placed there, however it is okay for young adults and teens to drink , do drugs and have sex in that "natural" area

Without knowing for absolute sure, I'm guessing those things are not okay with the land manager either.

[+edscott]

A cache can't be placed there, however it is okay for young adults and teens to drink , do drugs and have sex in that "natural" area

Without knowing for absolute sure, I'm guessing those things are not okay with the land manager either.

 

But are they Charging $25 for people to do it?

[+addisonbr]

But are they Charging $25 for people to do it?

Hahaha, that would be a fun permit application to fill out

[+ChinCache]

hey, that's cheaper than a hotel room.

[+alien55]

That is just crazy! If it wasn't for geocachers placing cache's in the parks I would probably not visit this places. This just brings more people to the parks.

 

I contacted DCNR to complain about the fee and the reply I recieved is below.

 

"Thank you for contacting DCNR. I’ve been asked to respond to your request. We do understand your concerns regarding the fee for placing geocaches within State Parks. Please know that the $25 administrative fee for new geocaches in state parks is used to cover the costs associated with approving a cache. This includes reviewing the cache site, performing an environmental review, and processing the necessary paperwork. The new fee is not retroactive for caches that are currently active and in place. However, any subsequent renewals and all new caches are subject to the fee. Most geocache agreements are issued for three-years, equating to about $8.33 per year.

>

> It’s also important to know that any geocaches that are partnered with State Parks, also referred to as "park sponsored", are not subject to the administrative fee what-so-ever. This includes CITO (cache in trash out) events or other volunteer-related events.

>

> We are certainly not looking for a way to discourage geocaching in State Parks. The administrative fee is only meant to help offset the costs associated with administering the program. You may be aware that our agency is under significant financial constraints. In addition, the administrative fee for geocaches is now in line with other event requests that occur within State Parks in which an administrative fee is also charged (i.e. weddings and small events)."

 

I wrote back pointing out that neither Delaware nor New Jersey charge fees for placing caches in their state parks. I also said that it's inappropriate to compare placing a geocache with a wedding. To demonstrate how the $25 fee is prohibiting cache placement in PA state parks, I asked the DCNR representative to visit geochaching.com and compare the number of caches placed along the Delaware Canal with the number placed along the Delaware and Raritan Canal just across the Delaware River in New Jersey. There is quite a contrast. I ended my reply be requesting a reduction in the fee (elimination is unlikely). I'm still waiting for a reply but I encourage others to contact DCNR to make a complaint about the fee. There is a contact section on the DCNR website. Make your opinions about this outrageoius fee known!

[+Team Pixos]

Why is 8.33 a year prohibitive?

[+Cardinal Red]

I had a fairly good relationship with the local DCNR land manager before he retired. I usually saw him several times a year at weekend volunteer activities. He retired before this new permit fee was instituted. I only worked through the permit process with him twice because I didn't want to push our good relationship by trying to flood the Park with caches. I would like to think that if he was still here, I would know exactly where I stand on the process of exchanging volunteer work for a free permit.

 

As it is now, I still interact with several DCNR subordinates at those same weekend volunteer activities, but I have only met the new land manager one time. It's not uncommon among volunteers themselves to discuss what it is that draws them to assisting the Park through volunteer activity. Sometimes the DCNR staff is part of those discussions. I usually give the condensed version about geocaching and that I wanted to show my appreciation for their cooperation with me as a geocache hider. I also express my concerns about the new permit fee and that it will kill geocaching in DCNR Parks. Of course they are not in charge and don't offer any real opinions. I appreciate when they take the time to send personal thanks for my participation, but frankly if they want to say thanks, award me a permit.

 

The one time I did meet the land manager it was quickly obvious that it was a program they had very little knowledge of. Without being overly pushy I did my best to offer a quick education and how I was interested in learning how I could earn a free permit. I came away with the impression that it wasn't something she wanted to look into very deeply. I asked if she had any idea how many Letterboxes had been placed in the Park that totally flaunted the permit process, and that such un-permitted placements were likely to continue. Letterboxing seemed to be an alien concept to her but not surprisingly it was also something she was not going to look into.

 

I recently did get serious about tracking down online Letterbox listings in the Park. It is even a bigger problem than I thought. I found more than 20 supposedly active LB listings and have physically tracked down about half of them. That compares to only four total geocaches EVER placed there. Two are archived and removed. One is a GC Multicache (with several painted rocks and only one container) and one GC Traditional.

 

While the Leterboxing sites play the game well and indicate they are subject to all Park placement restrictions, it's obvious they don't lift a finger to enforce them. As of now they are getting a free ride and I can't even earn a free permit. I have not given up yet, but what is it going to take to get the Parks to hold Letterboxers to the same standard as Geocachers.

[Keystone]

Without offering any opinion or criticism of the State Parks' policy, I'm writing to validate two facts:

 

1. From discussions with other reviewers and with land managers, containers similar in nature to Groundspeak-listed geocaches generally "fly under the radar" much as Cardinal Red describes - this includes letterboxes, caches posted on other listing site, and related alternative games. This is not unique to PA State Parks.

 

2. The practical effect of the fee system has been a near total halt in new State Park placements, and a gradual trend to archive existing caches when their current permits run out, all to avoid paying the fee. For every cache you see published in a PA State Park - which is a fraction of prior volume - there are two more that never get published once the reviewer advises the owner of the permit requirements.