Too Harsh?

1.4k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

October 21, 2010

Not too harsh but if you put your Point #1 together with Point #2 it might be that the coin was stolen along with the cause of his cache being in need of repair. Just a thought.

10.2k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

I would vote for not too harsh. That is if you're going to haul off and scold a teen cache placer via email. And believe me, I've seen many over the years that needed to be scolded. I have seen some pretty brutally horrible "teen hides" over the years, and maintenance is almost always lacking. I'm sure some will tell you that you stepped over the line by even emailing them, but I can definitely understand the frustration that led you to do it.

October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

I would vote for not too harsh. That is if you're going to haul off and scold a teen cache placer via email. And believe me, I've seen many over the years that needed to be scolded. I have seen some pretty brutally horrible "teen hides" over the years, and maintenance is almost always lacking. I'm sure some will tell you that you stepped over the line by even emailing them, but I can definitely understand the frustration that led you to do it.

Definitely not too harsh> I also don't know anyone who thinks cachers should not email each other to resolve problems before getting reviewers involved. I love this game/sport and hate when people get involved and don't want to do it the right way so others can enjoy it. I am one who thinks cachers should not hide a cache until they have achieved a certain number of finds so they can see how others do it. We have many in our area that hide caches after finding 5 or 6 caches and often their caches are not waterproof and poor quality. They also do not get maintained.

19k · October 21, 2010

Sounded fine to me, as well. You simply told the truth, and you did it as gently as you could without sugar-coating it.

October 21, 2010

Just remember, if you are not a teen, you do not exist. You are invisible.

1.5k · October 21, 2010

Mr. Yuck is right, someone will criticize you for 'policing.

IMO, what you wrote was reasonable, helpful, and polite. You have my support and I appreciate your looking after someone else's trackable. I hope he forwards it along.

14k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

I don't think it's too harsh, but if you've already sent the email that doesn't really matter. There are a couple of things about the email though.

Unless the coin you mention is one of your own it's not really your place to tell the teen how to handle it. The owner of the coin may not really care if the teens has held onto it for a long time.

There many be others that might have a problem with this sentence: "You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way." It's pretty obvious from reading the forums over the past few years and watching how others place the game that there isn't a standard definition of doing it the right way. Instead I would have written something like:

"This is a hobby that many people enjoy. There are guidelines which should be followed which allow others to enjoy the game, including properly maintaining the caches you put out and passing along trackable items as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

1.4k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

I don't think it's too harsh, but if you've already sent the email that doesn't really matter. There are a couple of things about the email though.

Unless the coin you mention is one of your own it's not really your place to tell the teen how to handle it. The owner of the coin may not really care if the teens has held onto it for a long time.

There many be others that might have a problem with this sentence: "You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way." It's pretty obvious from reading the forums over the past few years and watching how others place the game that there isn't a standard definition of doing it the right way. Instead I would have written something like:

"This is a hobby that many people enjoy. There are guidelines which should be followed which allow others to enjoy the game, including properly maintaining the caches you put out and passing along trackable items as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I disagree with the first part in bold. If someone were holding onto my trackable irresponsibly, I would appreciate another person trying to nudge it in the right direction. As far as the earlier post about not knowing whether he has it, it's listed in his inventory and he acknowledged grabbing it but not knowing what to do with it.

As far as the second line I bolded, you're correct. There is, however, a general consensus regarding what is the standard definition of doing things the wrong way. I think this pretty much meets those criteria.

I don't expect a response, I just felt the need to try one more time to address the problems with the cacher in question before NM and NA logs.

October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

I would have sugar coated it. Offered to fix the caches yourself, or meet with him/her to show how a hide should be done.

Again, politely explain about the coin. Explain that other people are counting on him to move it on. Make it that he is assisting someone else. You should have shown no irritation, condescension, or anger in your post.

If I was still a teenagar, I would have been annoyed by your email, probably would not cache again, and the coin would either earn a permanent place in the sock drawer, or be chucked into the nearest river.

20.7k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

It's been my experience that any thread that begins with 'Was I too harsh', or 'Was I rude' or the like typically deserve a resounding 'Yes, you were too <whatever>.'

Your email was not harsh in any way, however.

2.1k · October 21, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If everything quoted here is true, I would have skipped the email and gone straight to the NA log. Caches in bad condition with absentee owners need to be put out of their misery.

19k · October 21, 2010

This thread is going way too smoothly. Is it ok if I change my opinion?

4.2k · October 21, 2010

This thread is going way too smoothly. Is it ok if I change my opinion?

Just be patient. Soon enough somebody will post the "wrong" opinion.

On topic: the note seemed fine to me. If I didn't see a response I'd probably go ahead and pull the trigger on the NA log.

1.8k · October 21, 2010

I'd have sugar-coated it more. I try to err on the side of hyper-polite, especially at first.

2.3k · October 21, 2010

If the caches were that bad I would have just done a NM or NA on them in the first place. In my experience working with teens to come at them in anyway vaguely confrontational, trying to show them the "right" way etc... goes over like a lead balloon and potentially ends up with some passive aggressive temper tantrums. Not all teens but a good many I've had to deal with.

For my own sanity I would have simply done the NM or NA.

October 21, 2010

Seems to me like it was a heads up. If the kid's half as sharp as some of the kids I've dealt with, they'll see it as such.

October 22, 2010

I vote it was perfect. I would not have taken offense to it if it would have came to me - just a little upset with myself that I dropped the ball enough for someone to call me out.

October 22, 2010

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

This paragraph jumped off the page at me. I would find it quite off-putting if you sent it to me. Excuse the sarcastic tone that follows but I would like to comment on your welcoming the CO to geocache but only if he does it the "right" way. (I read it as "My Way") How benevolent of you to welcome him to geocache. [/sarcasim]

I noticed that a common theme to the threads you have recently started is that caches are not up to your standards and it reduces the geocaching experience for you. It seems like a setup for disappointment if the experience relies on what other people do or not do.

Two answer your question, I think your message was a little "control freaky". I have archived a couple of perfectly good caches because I simply did not want to deal with people contacting me, posting logs saying things like "The cache is missing again." (The cache was never missing.) or the cache was not hidden properly and they hid it in a better spot. Perhaps I have fallen into a similar trap. It takes all kinds I guess.

22k · October 22, 2010

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

This paragraph jumped off the page at me. I would find it quite off-putting if you sent it to me. Excuse the sarcastic tone that follows but I would like to comment on your welcoming the CO to geocache but only if he does it the "right" way. (I read it as "My Way") How benevolent of you to welcome him to geocache. [/sarcasim]

I noticed that a common theme to the threads you have recently started is that caches are not up to your standards and it reduces the geocaching experience for you. It seems like a setup for disappointment if the experience relies on what other people do or not do.

That jumped out at me a bit too but sometimes like it or not, you need to be the parent in the situation.

First contact should be innocuous enough that you give them a chance to respond without accusing or laying blame. In my experience most people will respond to a “by the way, did you know, could you”. Those who don’t respond to first contact typically don’t respond to anything at all. .

Best foot forward. After that, good luck.

Edited October 22, 2010 by BlueDeuce

5.3k · October 22, 2010

.... to a local high schooler who started caching, placed 4 questionable (at best) caches, and has since disappeared. He's not responded to several emails in the past from several people, allthough he did respond via email to one of my logs.

If I don't get a response, I'll be posting NM and NA logs appropriately, just wanted some feedback from you guys on the message I sent.

"Hey, this is J The Goat. I have a couple of requests for you. First, please either check on your caches or close them out. One of them has become nothing but a plastic bag with a piece of paper inside. I'm pretty sure box of doom is gone.

Second, I think you still have a geocoin that you picked up. The purpose of those is to travel around to different caches and places. If you still have it, please put it in a cache. The owner of the coin didn't intend for it to be held onto for such a long time. You don't even have to log it if you don't want to, whoever finds it next can take care of that.

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

I tried to keep it pretty civil, but it took quite an effort...

just post a should be archived log and let the local reviewer take it from there.

1.4k · October 22, 2010

I noticed that a common theme to the threads you have recently started is that caches are not up to your standards and it reduces the geocaching experience for you.

I'm curious as to what threads you're speaking of. I've started this one and one other regarding one of my caches that I was looking for feedback on.

1.4k · October 22, 2010

This thread is going way too smoothly. Is it ok if I change my opinion?

No, you've already stated it and it's against the rules to change it. So there.

October 22, 2010

I noticed that a common theme to the threads you have recently started is that caches are not up to your standards and it reduces the geocaching experience for you.

I'm curious as to what threads you're speaking of. I've started this one and one other regarding one of my caches that I was looking for feedback on.

I am of course, wrong. I should have checked before I posted. There was another similar thread but by another member. My apologies.

October 22, 2010

I don't consider your mail too harsh. However, there are some points to be considered:

- some people, no matter how sugar coated is your message, will consider it too harsh, and might become confrontational. I'm OK for debates, but I try to avoid debates with that kind of people.

- some people will ignore the harshness, but will think it's not your business to tell them what to do. They might either disregard the message altogether, or they might become confrontational. I would have avoided using the word "request" in the beginning of your mail.

It is difficult to determine beforehand what kind of person you're dealing with. If they belong to the above types, contacting them might do more harm than good. If they are an OK person, then contacting them will give them a nudge in the right direction. For those in between, you need to "sugar coat" your message.

When I contact other persons, I initially send a polite but short message, telling them about one or two of my concerns. I postpone the details and the less important issues for future emails.

1.4k · October 22, 2010

I noticed that a common theme to the threads you have recently started is that caches are not up to your standards and it reduces the geocaching experience for you.

I'm curious as to what threads you're speaking of. I've started this one and one other regarding one of my caches that I was looking for feedback on.

I am of course, wrong. I should have checked before I posted. There was another similar thread but by another member. My apologies.

No worries.

6.7k · October 22, 2010

... I also don't know anyone who thinks cachers should not email each other to resolve problems before getting reviewers involved.

You do now.

October 22, 2010

Gosh, if you think that's harsh, J., then you should read some of *my* emails when I'm peeved! No: it's not. I agree that putting the two points together makes sense and would make sense to someone reading it. Everyone geocaches in a different way, but helping people understand the fundamentals -- as you're doing very nicely here -- is essential.

Jeannette

19k · October 22, 2010

This thread is going way too smoothly. Is it ok if I change my opinion?

No, you've already stated it and it's against the rules to change it. So there.

Now can I, or did JohnX take my chance from me?

Have you had a response from the cache owner yet?

1.8k · October 23, 2010

Having recently cached in the fair town of Ukiah, Calif. and after visiting the cache noted by the OP, I share his angst. I contacted the cache owner with a most pleasant communication covered in sugar. Zero response, sooooo I think I will sneak into his back pack and eat his homework next time. That should fix him right up.

NM or NA appeal to me in this instance.

4.2k · October 23, 2010

This is a hobby that many people enjoy. You're more than welcome to enjoy it as well, but please do it the right way. Maintain the caches you put out. Pass along trackables as they're intended. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to answer them and help in any way I can."

This paragraph jumped off the page at me. I would find it quite off-putting if you sent it to me. Excuse the sarcastic tone that follows but I would like to comment on your welcoming the CO to geocache but only if he does it the "right" way. (I read it as "My Way") How benevolent of you to welcome him to geocache. [/sarcasim]

to me there's nothing wrong with that paragraph at all, it just offers advice and help, but i wasn't born and raised in a country that finds it unacceptable to criticize so i don't get it, even if the person you're addressing seriously lacks any aptitude

its beyond me why would the society encourage praising someone that is totally clueless

one huge reason why we have the overconfident/arrogant/i'm entitled young generation, but that's the subject for another thread

Edited October 23, 2010 by t4e

Too Harsh?

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