Skip the log sheet

[+sbell111]

<hiccup>

Edited October 27, 2010 by sbell111

[Dinoprophet]

So much fail...

 

There are very few actual 'rules' to geocaching, but signing the log book is one of them. I hope that all of those cache owners are deleting your logs.

There is actually no rule that says you must sign the log book in order to log a find online. (The puritans knew I would say this). There are rules that allow cache owners to delete logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or not within stated requirements. Should a cache owner decide to delete your log, do not expect Groundspeak to reinstate it if you didn't sign the log. There may even be cases where you did sign the log where Groundspeak will not reinstate your find, but at least if you have signed you may have some luck.

tozainamboku,

I wonder how many of your 4,000+ forum posts are dedicated to pointing out this fact?

 

**Only meant to be an rhetorical question to an observation I made. Not meant to be an attack on tozainamboku. Any post in a thread pointing out "the guideline" about signing the log is sure to have a post not long after by tozainamboku clarifying the guideline.**

+1. He does this all over the forum. It gets old. But HE knows

Seems like all those posts would prompt some people to actually learn the actual guidelines rather than twisting them into what they think they should be.

Show me where the actual guideline where it says to look at a cache from a distance, or not open the cache and you get a find. Show me.

Show me the actual guideline where it states that physical logs must be signed and that cache owners are required to delete online logs if the physical logs are not signed. Show me.

Never said anything about deleting a log. I showed you where it says to sign the log, but you seem to understand that to be a different meaning. So show me where it says you claim a find for seeing the cache from a distance or not even opening the cache to claim a find. YOU CAN"T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now go out and find some caches that you just drive by and get a find.......................What a joke!

Sbell and others (including myself) are arguing that there is NO guideline as to what you must do to log a find. You're asking him to disprove his own argument.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dinoprophet

[+the4dirtydogs]

So much fail...

 

There are very few actual 'rules' to geocaching, but signing the log book is one of them. I hope that all of those cache owners are deleting your logs.

There is actually no rule that says you must sign the log book in order to log a find online. (The puritans knew I would say this). There are rules that allow cache owners to delete logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or not within stated requirements. Should a cache owner decide to delete your log, do not expect Groundspeak to reinstate it if you didn't sign the log. There may even be cases where you did sign the log where Groundspeak will not reinstate your find, but at least if you have signed you may have some luck.

tozainamboku,

I wonder how many of your 4,000+ forum posts are dedicated to pointing out this fact?

 

**Only meant to be an rhetorical question to an observation I made. Not meant to be an attack on tozainamboku. Any post in a thread pointing out "the guideline" about signing the log is sure to have a post not long after by tozainamboku clarifying the guideline.**

+1. He does this all over the forum. It gets old. But HE knows

Seems like all those posts would prompt some people to actually learn the actual guidelines rather than twisting them into what they think they should be.

Show me where the actual guideline where it says to look at a cache from a distance, or not open the cache and you get a find. Show me.

Show me the actual guideline where it states that physical logs must be signed and that cache owners are required to delete online logs if the physical logs are not signed. Show me.

Never said anything about deleting a log. I showed you where it says to sign the log, but you seem to understand that to be a different meaning. So show me where it says you claim a find for seeing the cache from a distance or not even opening the cache to claim a find. YOU CAN"T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now go out and find some caches that you just drive by and get a find.......................What a joke!

If you are going to come from an emotional place, then there is no point discussing this.

 

The guidelines are for cache owners. They state very clearly when a log must be accepted. Cache owners may not delete the log if the book was signed. The guidelines do not address what a cache owner must do if the book wasn't signed. If the book is not signed, the guidelines leave it up to the individual cache owner to decide whether 'finds' are appropriate.

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed? You just write in circles. You play the game how you like and you interpert the guidelines how you like. Cache On.

[Dinoprophet]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

[+the4dirtydogs]

So much fail...

 

There are very few actual 'rules' to geocaching, but signing the log book is one of them. I hope that all of those cache owners are deleting your logs.

There is actually no rule that says you must sign the log book in order to log a find online. (The puritans knew I would say this). There are rules that allow cache owners to delete logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or not within stated requirements. Should a cache owner decide to delete your log, do not expect Groundspeak to reinstate it if you didn't sign the log. There may even be cases where you did sign the log where Groundspeak will not reinstate your find, but at least if you have signed you may have some luck.

tozainamboku,

I wonder how many of your 4,000+ forum posts are dedicated to pointing out this fact?

 

**Only meant to be an rhetorical question to an observation I made. Not meant to be an attack on tozainamboku. Any post in a thread pointing out "the guideline" about signing the log is sure to have a post not long after by tozainamboku clarifying the guideline.**

+1. He does this all over the forum. It gets old. But HE knows

Seems like all those posts would prompt some people to actually learn the actual guidelines rather than twisting them into what they think they should be.

Show me where the actual guideline where it says to look at a cache from a distance, or not open the cache and you get a find. Show me.

Show me the actual guideline where it states that physical logs must be signed and that cache owners are required to delete online logs if the physical logs are not signed. Show me.

Never said anything about deleting a log. I showed you where it says to sign the log, but you seem to understand that to be a different meaning. So show me where it says you claim a find for seeing the cache from a distance or not even opening the cache to claim a find. YOU CAN"T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now go out and find some caches that you just drive by and get a find.......................What a joke!

Sbell and others (including myself) are arguing that there is NO guideline as to what you must do to log a find. You're asking him to disprove his own argument.

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line. I really don't know how you people say it's not in the guidelines. What's the deal. I understand if the log is wet, you can't open the container because it's smashed, rusted, etc.....then th Co will give you a find and hopefully do some maintence. The object of the game is to input the coords go find the cache and sign the log. Seems to be no arguement there, but I'll keep going back and forth with you all.

[Dinoprophet]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line. I really don't know how you people say it's not in the guidelines. What's the deal. I understand if the log is wet, you can't open the container because it's smashed, rusted, etc.....then th Co will give you a find and hopefully do some maintence. The object of the game is to input the coords go find the cache and sign the log. Seems to be no arguement there, but I'll keep going back and forth with you all.

No, obviously it's not clear at all. That's why Castle Mischief and I agreed it should be rewritten. I argue that in context, in the hiding guidelines and specifically in the section on ALRs, it means that once the log is signed, the hider must be allowed (i.e. "can") log Found. That guideline wasn't there until ALRs were banned.

[+Avernar]

Sbell and others (including myself) are arguing that there is NO guideline as to what you must do to log a find.

I agree. BUT. Others are using it as an argument that it's OK to skip the physical log if it's too much of an inconvenience because the online log is good enough.

[+the4dirtydogs]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

[+sbell111]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line. I really don't know how you people say it's not in the guidelines.

What is not in the guidelines is whether or not a cache can be logged as found if the log doesn't get signed.

What's the deal. I understand if the log is wet, you can't open the container because it's smashed, rusted, etc.....then th Co will give you a find and hopefully do some maintence. The object of the game is to input the coords go find the cache and sign the log. Seems to be no arguement there, but I'll keep going back and forth with you all.

There's no point in going back and forth, because you have come to agree with us. The cache owner determines whether a 'find' can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed. Welcome to the dark side.

Edited October 27, 2010 by sbell111

[+Avernar]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

[+sbell111]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

No one has stated that writing your name is an ALR.

[+BuckeyeClan]

Let us not confuse ASD-level tenacity and compulsion with logic.

 

I challenge you to find a posting by Toz that is not logically sound.

[+Avernar]

But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

It is stated to sign the log. What's not stated is what happens if you don't.

[Dinoprophet]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

Now it's clear. You've completely misunderstood what we're saying about ALRs.

 

No one has said signing the log is an ALR. The guideline says that the cache owner must allow a Found log once the physical log is signed. Again -- once the physical log is signed, the cache owner cannot delete a Found log*.

 

* there are content-related reasons they may still delete a log, but that applies to all log types

[+BuckeyeClan]

It doesn't. And never, in all of his 4000+ posts, has Toz ever claimed that it does. If you don't understand the argument that Toz repeatedly makes, then you don't understand logical reasoning, or at least are refusing to understand it. Toz's posts are always logically sound and technically correct.

 

I understand logical reasoning. I also understand brevity.

 

Then you understand that logical reasoning need not be brief! I never said Toz was succinct. But really, he does a good job of giving background info and explains things well. I often think that it's too bad that more people don't actually *read* what he posts. The background concerning ALR's and such--I've learned quite a bit from reading his posts.

[+the4dirtydogs]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

[+tozainamboku]

I'm just saying that with a few re-writes all this could be avoided. I'm not saying that the guidelines should be lawyered up to infinity, but a few well placed qualifiers here and there would go a long way.

I agree with that.

 

Awesome. Thanks for the rational discussion.

Actually I think the guidelines are fine as they are. People need to stop reading into them things that are not there. The oft quoted

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

does not say when the cache cannot be logged online as Found, nor does it say anything about when a cache owner may or may not delete the log or about when Groundspeak may or may not reinstate a log if it was deleted. It was added to guidelines simply to indicate that starting April 4, 2009 the finder did not have to meet any additional logging requirements in order to log their find.

 

Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed? You just write in circles. You play the game how you like and you interpert the guidelines how you like. Cache On.

There are lots of reasons for a CO to delete a found log. It may have spoilers. It may contain inappropriate language. It may be off-topic. The CO may believe the signature in the logbook is bogus and the finder had never actually found the cache (the log is bogus or counterfeit).

 

If someone has legitimately found a cache and the log is not off-topic or inappropriate, the cache owner shouldn't be deleting the log. If the cache owner thinks the log looks bogus, they are certainly allowed to ask for more proof that the cache was found and they certainly can use the physical logbook to confirm a find if the finder claims they signed the book. If someone puts in the online log "I was driving past so I'm claiming this as find", I would delete their find log. I would tend to view someone who writes "Found the cache but I never sign the logs because it's not required" with suspicion. If they appear to be logging caches that they have never been to, I would delete their logs. But when someone writes "Found the cache but forgot a pen" and can describe something about the container or the way the cache was hidden, they have a legitimate find in my book. There is simply no guideline that makes it a requirement that the log must be signed in order for an online Found it log to stand.

[+sbell111]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

[+the4dirtydogs]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

Now it's clear. You've completely misunderstood what we're saying about ALRs.

 

No one has said signing the log is an ALR. The guideline says that the cache owner must allow a Found log once the physical log is signed. Again -- once the physical log is signed, the cache owner cannot delete a Found log*.

 

* there are content-related reasons they may still delete a log, but that applies to all log types

I was talking about just signing the log to get a find. Then you brought up ALR and deleting log which I've said nothing about deleting logs. Thats why I thought you were talking about signing the log as an ALR. My bad

[Dinoprophet]

<doop>

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dinoprophet

[Dinoprophet]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

Now it's clear. You've completely misunderstood what we're saying about ALRs.

 

No one has said signing the log is an ALR. The guideline says that the cache owner must allow a Found log once the physical log is signed. Again -- once the physical log is signed, the cache owner cannot delete a Found log*.

 

* there are content-related reasons they may still delete a log, but that applies to all log types

I was talking about just signing the log to get a find. Then you brought up ALR and deleting log which I've said nothing about deleting logs. Thats why I thought you were talking about signing the log as an ALR. My bad

Fair enough. I wasn't clear when I referred to the oft quoted guideline (that is, the one you cited while I was writing). I've gotten to the point of referring to it as "That Guideline".

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dinoprophet

[+sbell111]

I just think you like to argue with people. Why would a CO delete a log if it was signed?

Because someone didn't complete an ALR. Which is exactly why that part of the guidelines is there, in the Hiding guidelines.

Here we go with the ALR's this just doesn't stop. I told a bunch of my caching buddies about not signing the log and they laughed. See you see writing your name on a log as an ALR and I don't. Thats where we differ. But to say it's not stated to sign the log is just being blinded by your own beliefs.

Now it's clear. You've completely misunderstood what we're saying about ALRs.

 

No one has said signing the log is an ALR. The guideline says that the cache owner must allow a Found log once the physical log is signed. Again -- once the physical log is signed, the cache owner cannot delete a Found log*.

 

* there are content-related reasons they may still delete a log, but that applies to all log types

I was talking about just signing the log to get a find. Then you brought up ALR and deleting log which I've said nothing about deleting logs. Thats why I thought you were talking about signing the log as an ALR. My bad

If your position is that the guidelines require the physical log to be signed to get a find, then you must also be arguing that a cache owner must delete the online log if the logbook was not signed and that he cannot choose to allow some finds to stand if the logbook was not signed.

[+Castle Mischief]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

 

If you've read my posting in this thread then you know that I'm all for signing the log to claim the find. The point that you're missing about the guideline that you've posted is that it's from the Hiding Guidelines, not the Finding Guidelines.

 

That particular line was created as part of the dismissal of ALRs. Hiders can no longer force finders to do some non-caching "thing" to claim the Found It. Once the finder has found the cache, they are entitled to claim a Found It.

 

EDIT: In the time it took me to respond, this may have become redundant to the thread.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Castle Mischief

[+BuckeyeClan]

Somebody that doesn't come to forums and has read "Getting Started" and "Finding your First Geocache" and has seen "Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location" and also "Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience" I think there's a good chance that they will either not log a "found it" or they will then come to the forums and get tied up in the discussion.

 

And I don't think that you can determine how a hypothetical person would believe about any one thing or another. Plenty of folks have read all the guidelines and still stand by "sign the log, get the find" as the basis for how the game is played.

 

I'm just saying that with a few re-writes all this could be avoided. I'm not saying that the guidelines should be lawyered up to infinity, but a few well placed qualifiers here and there would go a long way.

 

I disagree a bit with your first paragraph. A person may well feel justified in logging a "found it" if they've seen it done that way. When I first started caching, and reading cache pages and logs, I saw several logs from people saying "found it, but didn't sign the log, because I didn't have a pen with me." So when I found one without a pen, I felt perfectly justified in claiming a find for the same reason. It wasn't until months later that I started reading the forums, and came to understand that that would upset some CO's. So if cachers that never read the forums see "found it" logs stating "found it, but didn't sign because it was rusted shut/forgot my pen/didn't feel like actually climbing the tree", it's perfectly reasonable that they would think that it's okay.

 

I agree that some simple edits would make everything more clear, but since it's an issue that is argued more for the sake of theory than for the sake of practice, it probably won't get changed.

[+the4dirtydogs]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

If the log hasn't been signed because the log can't be signed. Not if your too lazy because your on a 17 cache caching run to even think about signing the log. Thats the difference.

[+the4dirtydogs]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line. I really don't know how you people say it's not in the guidelines.

What is not in the guidelines is whether or not a cache can be logged as found if the log doesn't get signed.

What's the deal. I understand if the log is wet, you can't open the container because it's smashed, rusted, etc.....then th Co will give you a find and hopefully do some maintence. The object of the game is to input the coords go find the cache and sign the log. Seems to be no arguement there, but I'll keep going back and forth with you all.

There's no point in going back and forth, because you have come to agree with us. The cache owner determines whether a 'find' can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed. Welcome to the dark side.

Thanks for the welcome. Time for a cheeseburger.

[+sbell111]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

If the log hasn't been signed because the log can't be signed. Not if your too lazy because your on a 17 cache caching run to even think about signing the log. Thats the difference.

Can you show me where this difference is enumerated in the guideline that you keep referencing?

[+Castle Mischief]

I disagree a bit with your first paragraph. A person may well feel justified in logging a "found it" if they've seen it done that way. When I first started caching, and reading cache pages and logs, I saw several logs from people saying "found it, but didn't sign the log, because I didn't have a pen with me." So when I found one without a pen, I felt perfectly justified in claiming a find for the same reason. It wasn't until months later that I started reading the forums, and came to understand that that would upset some CO's. So if cachers that never read the forums see "found it" logs stating "found it, but didn't sign because it was rusted shut/forgot my pen/didn't feel like actually climbing the tree", it's perfectly reasonable that they would think that it's okay.

 

I agree that some simple edits would make everything more clear, but since it's an issue that is argued more for the sake of theory than for the sake of practice, it probably won't get changed.

 

I'm not going to argue what a hypothetical person would or would not do. You make a good point that Mr. Hypothetical could make a decision based on what they saw in the previous logs and if the CO had let those logs stand, but I don't think the non-hypothetical OP of this thread is not signing for those reasons.

 

If people are reading the guidelines in a manner inconsistent to their meaning, then the guidelines are not guiding very well. They should be clarified.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Castle Mischief

[Dinoprophet]

Whatever the guideline means, one week and six pages later, neither the cache owner nor Groundspeak has deleted the OPs found logs. I wouldn't expect Groundspeak to even if it is a hard and fast rule, since they can't know which ones he didn't sign. The COs may eventually find out and investigate. If they do find no signature, then they're within their rights to delete. Anyone disagree?

[+sbell111]

I disagree a bit with your first paragraph. A person may well feel justified in logging a "found it" if they've seen it done that way. When I first started caching, and reading cache pages and logs, I saw several logs from people saying "found it, but didn't sign the log, because I didn't have a pen with me." So when I found one without a pen, I felt perfectly justified in claiming a find for the same reason. It wasn't until months later that I started reading the forums, and came to understand that that would upset some CO's. So if cachers that never read the forums see "found it" logs stating "found it, but didn't sign because it was rusted shut/forgot my pen/didn't feel like actually climbing the tree", it's perfectly reasonable that they would think that it's okay.

 

I agree that some simple edits would make everything more clear, but since it's an issue that is argued more for the sake of theory than for the sake of practice, it probably won't get changed.

 

I'm not going to argue what a hypothetical person would or would not do. You make a good point that Mr. Hypothetical could make a decision based on what they saw in the previous logs and if the CO had let those logs stand, but I don't think the non-hypothetical OP of this thread is not signing for those reasons.

 

If people are reading the guidelines in a manner inconsistent to their meaning, then the guidelines are guiding very well. They should be clarified.

I think that if Mr Hypothetical defined 'found' in the normal manner, he's more likely to log the hypothetical rusted shut/forgot my pen/didn't feel like actually climbing the tree cache with a hypothetical online 'found' log.

[+Castle Mischief]

Whatever the guideline means, one week and six pages later, neither the cache owner nor Groundspeak has deleted the OPs found logs. I wouldn't expect Groundspeak to even if it is a hard and fast rule, since they can't know which ones he didn't sign. The COs may eventually find out and investigate. If they do find no signature, then they're within their rights to delete. Anyone disagree?

 

Nope.

[+the4dirtydogs]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

If the log hasn't been signed because the log can't be signed. Not if your too lazy because your on a 17 cache caching run to even think about signing the log. Thats the difference.

Can you show me where this difference is enumerated in the guideline that you keep referencing?

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

[+Avernar]

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

First of all, that's an instruction to the CO not the finder. Non CO's will probably never see that text.

 

Second, It doesn't specifically exclude other things from allowing online found it logs. The usage of the word "once" makes it a little ambiguous as people seem to read it as "only once".

 

The definition of once here is "as soon as":

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found as soon as the physical log has been signed.

 

Just the same as "We can rest as soon as we get home". You can rest sooner if you drive by a motel.

 

The best way to resolve the ambiguity? Ask the author. The community did. Groundspeak said it was not the only prerequisite. They said it was the only one the CO could not ignore.

[+tozainamboku]

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

First of all, that's an instruction to the CO not the finder. Non CO's will probably never see that text.

 

Second, It doesn't specifically exclude other things from allowing online found it logs. The usage of the word "once" makes it a little ambiguous as people seem to read it as "only once".

 

The definition of once here is "as soon as":

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found as soon as the physical log has been signed.

 

Just the same as "We can rest as soon as we get home". You can rest sooner if you drive by a motel.

 

The best way to resolve the ambiguity? Ask the author. The community did. Groundspeak said it was not the only prerequisite. They said it was the only one the CO could not ignore.

Actually, it's an instruction to the finder. What it's doing in the guidelines for placing a cache is a little strange.

 

The change to ALRs was a difficult one for Groundspeak to find a way to publicize and make clear. Basically they could have just said that cache owners could no longer delete Found logs because someone failed to meet an ALR. But since this change applied to current caches with ALRs they needed a way to express to finders that they should go ahead and log the cache once they found it. That TPTB decided to say "once the physical log has been signed" instead of "once you have found the cache" indicates the intent is that the physical log be signed and allow cache owners to delete logs when the physical log was not signed. My guess is that this is what some people are picking up on and interpreting to mean the physical log must be signed. I would have prefered that TPTB said "Geocaches can be logged online as Found, once you have found the cache". But that sounds obvious. Since we all agree that signing the log is a good idea anyhow, they chose to take the approach they took. It did not change the ability of cache owners to accept finds in other cases and it preserved the ability of cache owners who wanted to rely on the physical log to delete logs they felt were bogus. Generally this is for caches that have some challenge involved in order to retrieve the cache and sign the log. These can be enforced by log deletion. You can't say "I saw the cache up in the tree but was unwilling to climb up an get it" and then claim a find.

[+Castle Mischief]

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

First of all, that's an instruction to the CO not the finder. Non CO's will probably never see that text.

 

Second, It doesn't specifically exclude other things from allowing online found it logs. The usage of the word "once" makes it a little ambiguous as people seem to read it as "only once".

 

The definition of once here is "as soon as":

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found as soon as the physical log has been signed.

 

Just the same as "We can rest as soon as we get home". You can rest sooner if you drive by a motel.

 

The best way to resolve the ambiguity? Ask the author. The community did. Groundspeak said it was not the only prerequisite. They said it was the only one the CO could not ignore.

Actually, it's an instruction to the finder. What it's doing in the guidelines for placing a cache is a little strange.

 

(snipped for brevity)

 

Um, no it's an instruction to the hider, just like the next sentence and the rest of that document.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Castle Mischief

[+Avernar]

Actually, it's an instruction to the finder. What it's doing in the guidelines for placing a cache is a little strange.

While it's also applicable to a finder, it's directed at the hider. There's nothing strange about it being in the cache placement guidelines as it's dealing with ALRs.

 

"Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

If it is appropriate for your cache location or theme, you may ask the cache seeker to accomplish an optional and simple task, either close to the cache site (normally within 0.1 miles or 161 meters) or when writing their online log."

 

Take those two sentences together and it means that the the physical log is the only requirement that the CO can enforce should they choose to.

[+M 5]

Are there any actual lawyers in here, or do you all just play them on forums. All I know is that the intent from the very begining of geocaching has been to sign the log. One of the requirements for a geocache to be a geocache, is that is HAS to have a logbook. Even lowly nano's. So obviously the intent is to sign. Groundspeak backs a CO that wants to deletes a log if it isn't signed. Another fact to support signing.

Every argument i've ever been a part of or seen involving a game has been when someone tries to "bend" the rules and use perceived grey areas. It's obvious that geocachers are supposed to sign the log. Why not just do it and quite trying to twist the guidelines and intent. I understand that if a CO doesn't care or more likely absent, then the find will count. All that being said, I have only disputed two. One was blatantly stated in the online log that they didn't sign it. I asked them not to flaunt it online and I wouldn't delete the find, cause I wouldn't go and check the cache log. The other was a hard to get cache that was part of the challenge. But I still think that those that try to "bend" the game to there style, cause the most problems. Just like in real life.

[+sbell111]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

If the log hasn't been signed because the log can't be signed. Not if your too lazy because your on a 17 cache caching run to even think about signing the log. Thats the difference.

Can you show me where this difference is enumerated in the guideline that you keep referencing?

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

That does not relate to the question that I asked. Did you reply to my post in error?

[+sbell111]

Are there any actual lawyers in here, or do you all just play them on forums. All I know is that the intent from the very begining of geocaching has been to sign the log. One of the requirements for a geocache to be a geocache, is that is HAS to have a logbook. Even lowly nano's. So obviously the intent is to sign. Groundspeak backs a CO that wants to deletes a log if it isn't signed. Another fact to support signing.

Every argument i've ever been a part of or seen involving a game has been when someone tries to "bend" the rules and use perceived grey areas. It's obvious that geocachers are supposed to sign the log. Why not just do it and quite trying to twist the guidelines and intent. I understand that if a CO doesn't care or more likely absent, then the find will count. All that being said, I have only disputed two. One was blatantly stated in the online log that they didn't sign it. I asked them not to flaunt it online and I wouldn't delete the find, cause I wouldn't go and check the cache log. The other was a hard to get cache that was part of the challenge. But I still think that those that try to "bend" the game to there style, cause the most problems. Just like in real life.

The bolded bit is simply incorrect. The requirement that every cache has a logbook is a fairly recent invention and even today isn't absolute.

 

I think that most game related angst is caused by those who want to create rules that are inflexible, while at the same time arguing that there should be some flexibility. This issue is a great example of this.

[+Avernar]

Are there any actual lawyers in here, or do you all just play them on forums.

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

 

All I know is that the intent from the very begining of geocaching has been to sign the log. One of the requirements for a geocache to be a geocache, is that is HAS to have a logbook. Even lowly nano's. So obviously the intent is to sign. Groundspeak backs a CO that wants to deletes a log if it isn't signed. Another fact to support signing.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the log should be signed. What some are trying to argue is that you can't log an online found if you didn't sign the log no and's, if's or but's.

 

My personal view is that my name ends up in every log. The only exception I make is if the log is wet and a new sheet of paper won't fit (hey, if the CO is not maintaining their cache the shouldn't chastise me for not being able to sign it).

 

No pen? Nope. I'll go back for one or find some way (short of blood) to sign it. And the only time I sometimes don't have one is if I'm still in my works clothes. Otherwise I have a small gel pen in a pocket knife pouch on my belt.

 

What the OP did? That's just plain lazy.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Avernar

[+Avernar]

I think that most game related angst is caused by those who want to create rules that are inflexible, while at the same time arguing that there should be some flexibility. This issue is a great example of this.

Funny you should write that. I'm inflexible when I'm finding but flexible when I'm the CO.

[+Castle Mischief]

Pretty much everyone agrees that the log should be signed. What some are trying to argue is that you can't log an online found if you didn't sign the log no and's, if's or but's.

 

I'd have to re-read the whole thread, but is anybody really arguing that? I thought everybody that's posted has essentially agreed that it's a soft guideline with room for exceptions.

[+M 5]

Are there any actual lawyers in here, or do you all just play them on forums. All I know is that the intent from the very begining of geocaching has been to sign the log. One of the requirements for a geocache to be a geocache, is that is HAS to have a logbook. Even lowly nano's. So obviously the intent is to sign. Groundspeak backs a CO that wants to deletes a log if it isn't signed. Another fact to support signing.

Every argument i've ever been a part of or seen involving a game has been when someone tries to "bend" the rules and use perceived grey areas. It's obvious that geocachers are supposed to sign the log. Why not just do it and quite trying to twist the guidelines and intent. I understand that if a CO doesn't care or more likely absent, then the find will count. All that being said, I have only disputed two. One was blatantly stated in the online log that they didn't sign it. I asked them not to flaunt it online and I wouldn't delete the find, cause I wouldn't go and check the cache log. The other was a hard to get cache that was part of the challenge. But I still think that those that try to "bend" the game to there style, cause the most problems. Just like in real life.

The bolded bit is simply incorrect. The requirement that every cache has a logbook is a fairly recent invention and even today isn't absolute.

 

I think that most game related angst is caused by those who want to create rules that are inflexible, while at the same time arguing that there should be some flexibility. This issue is a great example of this.

 

I would have to find it again to quote it correctly, but the very first post that Dave Ulmer place on the usenet group included the idea of a logbook to record Date,time, what you got and what you left. The part you bolded didn't say it was a requirement. I stated that later in the rant.

Edited October 27, 2010 by M 5

[+Avernar]

Pretty much everyone agrees that the log should be signed. What some are trying to argue is that you can't log an online found if you didn't sign the log no and's, if's or but's.

I'd have to re-read the whole thread, but is anybody really arguing that? I thought everybody that's posted has essentially agreed that it's a soft guideline with room for exceptions.

It's been going for so long I'd have to re-read it as well.

 

I believe it's evolved to whether or not the guidelines say this or it's just a de facto rule.

[MisterEFQ]

I'm going to be another Terrible Cacher and confess I haven't always signed the log, usually if it's a micro and I realize I don't have a pen. You can argue with me however you like on this, but I sincerely don't see how me just writing my name on another line on another lamppost cache is going to make much difference in the game, as anything I have to say will be online and not in the actual cache itself anyway.

 

I've solved that problem... as soon as I see my GPS pointing to a lamp post, I go look for a different cache. Seriously, people, don't you have better things to do than play in the Wally World parking lot?

 

Im glad im not jaded towards LPC's.

 

Sometimes on my way to and from places I have to park in a lot. Before I leave I pull out my GPS and see if anything is there. If it happens to be a LPC, so what. Im going to find it and log it. Its a nice quick distraction when im running around town. I dont always have time to go to a nice trail and look for great caches.

[+the4dirtydogs]

The guideline clearly states to sign the log then you can log on line.

No. The getting started page says you should sign the log. Then it says you should log online. Two separate things.

 

There is no text indicating you can't do the latter if you don't do the former. You only loose the ability to dispute a log deletion.

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

True. Also true, as you've previously stated, geocaches can be logged online if the physical log has not been signed, if the cache owner agrees that a found was made.

 

Why do you continue to argue now that you are in agreement?

If the log hasn't been signed because the log can't be signed. Not if your too lazy because your on a 17 cache caching run to even think about signing the log. Thats the difference.

Can you show me where this difference is enumerated in the guideline that you keep referencing?

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

That does not relate to the question that I asked. Did you reply to my post in error?

Yep. My Bad.

[+the4dirtydogs]

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

First of all, that's an instruction to the CO not the finder. Non CO's will probably never see that text.

 

Second, It doesn't specifically exclude other things from allowing online found it logs. The usage of the word "once" makes it a little ambiguous as people seem to read it as "only once".

 

The definition of once here is "as soon as":

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found as soon as the physical log has been signed.

 

Just the same as "We can rest as soon as we get home". You can rest sooner if you drive by a motel.

 

The best way to resolve the ambiguity? Ask the author. The community did. Groundspeak said it was not the only prerequisite. They said it was the only one the CO could not ignore.

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

[+dreamarcher]

Found another nano yesterday. Just a few minutes before I had found another by the same owner. Regular size, cool stuff inside, notebook type log, great view on the water. Overall great cache. I took the time to write a little thing instead of just signing and dating. When I got to the nano it was understandable that it needed to be that small. I opened it and took a look. -sighed-. Thought, "If it try really hard I could get it out but there's no way these painful finger joints are going to be able to put it back." I closed it up, put it back, took a last look at the view and left.

 

I don't care what the rules are or if the consequences are the loss of happy hour on Thursday nights, I just can't do nanos. I no I don't feel I should be punished because it's too small for me to manipulate.

[+M 5]

How are you punished? Just don't do nanos.

[+dreamarcher]

How are you punished? Just don't do nanos.

You answered your own question.