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Garmin Chirp- Geocaching Beacon

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??? It would be really helpful to know exactly what it was that engendered that response from Garmin.

 

Groundspeak does not allow you to use these as designed. I

bought three and am returning them as you have misrepresented the

product.

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I don't think there's anything wrong - or even strange - about Garmin's response.

 

They make the Chirp to work with their own GPSRs. If other companies want to make receivers to pick up Chirp signals (or make their own beacons), those companies will.. I liken this to PedalBrain (mentioned earlier), who makes an iPhone app for cyclists -- and it can use the signals from lots of other companies' ANT+ devices (including Garmin's).

 

The marketplace will sort out if Garmin's strategy for the Chirp - and/or the whole idea of beacons like this - is worthwhile.

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Trivial post:

Along with the software upgrade to program a beacon, Garmin also changed the geocaching icon on their devices from the cg.com icon to a different icon.

 

its been pointed out in post#56 already

 

I read about this somewhere else. This is more interesting/puzzling/intriguing to me than the Chirp. Garmin & Groundspeak have been pretty tight in the past, from what I've gathered - perhaps Garmin is preparing to push supporting another site heavily?

 

i doubt it Garmin is doing that, it sure looks like any disagreements that may have existed between Garmin and GS have been reconciled now

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??? It would be really helpful to know exactly what it was that engendered that response from Garmin.

 

Groundspeak does not allow you to use these as designed. I

bought three and am returning them as you have misrepresented the

product.

Where on Garmin's website does it say that it's designed to be used with Geocaching.com?

 

I've never been one to defend Garmin (or necessarily speak against them either), but I fail to see where the "misrepresentation" is, except maybe in your own assumptions & interpretations of things you've read.

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Fairly predictable "closed shop" response IMO. Like the doomed, and unsupported Wherigo Player on the CO and OR,, I suspect it will be heading to the dust bin before long :rolleyes:
Garmin has nothing to do with putting Wherigo into the tailspin it is in. Groundspeak developed the Wherigo Player. When it first came out, it was available for the Pocket PC and the Garmin units.

 

Groundspeak hasn't updated the buggy Wherigo builder in ages.

 

I can't keep up with the Oregon updates.

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Say one was to set up a multi/mystery using using a few Chirp units. Would those waypoints count for saturation guidelines? I don't believe they should, but there is a physical placement, although one would hope that they are sufficiently hidden to escape detection. Should the waypoints be marked as "question to answer" type?

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Say one was to set up a multi/mystery using using a few Chirp units. Would those waypoints count for saturation guidelines? I don't believe they should, but there is a physical placement, although one would hope that they are sufficiently hidden to escape detection. Should the waypoints be marked as "question to answer" type?

 

One thought.. what if you set up a multi with chirp units, and someone else sets another chirp or a final with a chirp 10 feet away?

 

I do not have an answer, but that would be a worry to me.

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Say one was to set up a multi/mystery using using a few Chirp units. Would those waypoints count for saturation guidelines? I don't believe they should, but there is a physical placement, although one would hope that they are sufficiently hidden to escape detection. Should the waypoints be marked as "question to answer" type?

 

One thought.. what if you set up a multi with chirp units, and someone else sets another chirp or a final with a chirp 10 feet away?

 

I do not have an answer, but that would be a worry to me.

 

You mean the chirp units don't have proximity rules? Would they not be considered a physical container for a multi? Wow a whole new area for angst.

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Say one was to set up a multi/mystery using using a few Chirp units. Would those waypoints count for saturation guidelines? I don't believe they should, but there is a physical placement, although one would hope that they are sufficiently hidden to escape detection. Should the waypoints be marked as "question to answer" type?

 

One thought.. what if you set up a multi with chirp units, and someone else sets another chirp or a final with a chirp 10 feet away?

 

I do not have an answer, but that would be a worry to me.

 

You mean the chirp units don't have proximity rules? Would they not be considered a physical container for a multi? Wow a whole new area for angst.

 

They have to be 30 feet or more away from each other or we got problems....

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i would think a chirp should be listed as "stage of a multistage" and thus the proximity guideline would apply. nothing else would make sense.

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i would think a chirp should be listed as "stage of a multistage" and thus the proximity guideline would apply. nothing else would make sense.

 

We now have a proximity issue of transmiters, and who's is more powerful ...

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We now have a proximity issue of transmiters, and who's is more powerful ...

at some point the FCC will want to have a talk with you... :rolleyes:

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Say one was to set up a multi/mystery using using a few Chirp units. Would those waypoints count for saturation guidelines? I don't believe they should, but there is a physical placement, although one would hope that they are sufficiently hidden to escape detection. Should the waypoints be marked as "question to answer" type?

 

One thought.. what if you set up a multi with chirp units, and someone else sets another chirp or a final with a chirp 10 feet away?

 

I do not have an answer, but that would be a worry to me.

 

Good point, I retract my preference and support existing saturation guidelines... :rolleyes:

 

Although depending on the unique data they give, this may or may not cause confusion.

 

Just out of curiosity, can some one that has 2 chirps, place them side by side and see how the gps responds to them at the same time.

Edited by savant9

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Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

Chirp is designed for use with Garmin products. I do not understand the

claim that that we have misrepresented the product, as it is outlined in

the product features on the Garmin website that it has been designed for

compatible Garmin devices. We apologize if this in conflict with your

commercial guidelines, however Garmin will only be producing units,

software , and accessories for Garmin devices.

With Best Regards,

 

Robert G

Product Support Specialist

Outdoor/Fitness Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Robert G, Associate #6970

www.garmin.com

 

Do I understand correctly :

 

- does it mean that Garmin chirps will be compatible only with Garmin products ?

- no 3rd party solution to communicate with Garmin chirps will be available ?

- ANT communication protocol between GPS and chirps will stay Garmin property and non published ?

Edited by courdi95

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Groundspeak will make it easier to have these new devices as part of the growing repertoire of ways to find a cache.

 

Here is the current plan:

  1. A new attribute for a "beacon" will be added soon. Any caches that use a Chirp (or any future similar device) should use this attribute.

 

So this icon is only for GARMIN "Chirp" and upcomming Garmin/Magellan/etc devices ?!?

Whats up with caches using WiFi or FM radio transmitters?

May I use this icon for those caches too?

I hope so :-)

 

Have a nice day,

Martin

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Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

Chirp is designed for use with Garmin products. I do not understand the

claim that that we have misrepresented the product, as it is outlined in

the product features on the Garmin website that it has been designed for

compatible Garmin devices. We apologize if this in conflict with your

commercial guidelines, however Garmin will only be producing units,

software , and accessories for Garmin devices.

With Best Regards,

 

Robert G

Product Support Specialist

Outdoor/Fitness Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Robert G, Associate #6970

www.garmin.com

 

Do I understand correctly :

 

- does it mean that Garmin chirps will be compatible only with Garmin products ?

- no 3rd party solution to communicate with Garmin chirps will be available ?

- ANT communication protocol between GPS and chirps will stay Garmin property and non published ?

 

 

Do I understand correctly :

 

- does it mean that Garmin chirps will be compatible only with Garmin products ?

- no 3rd party solution to communicate with Garmin chirps will be available ?

- ANT communication protocol between GPS and chirps will stay Garmin property and non published ?

 

Could Groundspeak propose its own "chirps" ? with an open-source ANT protocol that could be implemented on various 3rd party GPS or tablets or PCs ?

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My Chirp should be arriving today, so I can't wait to try it out.

 

I will be the first to admit that I am not overly technical, but can figure most things out.

 

I have heard that the instructions that come with the device is better suited for TP instead. I was wondering if somebody who is pretty technical could possibly writeup a short tutorial on how to use it and set it up.

 

I have the new 62st, so I am curious as to how this is going to work.

 

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated!!

 

(I can also be contacted at weaselts1@gmail.com if somebody would just like to send me some quick instructions on how to get up and running with it)

 

Thanks!!

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An good non-geocaching post about chirp usage for fitness applications.

 

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/10/look-at...-potential.html

 

The more interesting part is the fact that chirp is based on an upcoming ANT+ profile called Geocache Device Node Profile (DC Rainmaker just attended the recent ANT symposium where this was discussed). Hopefully we will see other devices with chirp support as the article implies and an expanded range of uses as a result of this new profile specification.

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Any help with this would be greatly appreciated!!

 

(I can also be contacted at weaselts1@gmail.com if somebody would just like to send me some quick instructions on how to get up and running with it)

 

http://www.gpsfix.com/garmin-chirp-review/

I've been reading your stuff, thanks for the great info :rolleyes:

I'll be after my first chirp find this morning.

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Whats up with caches using WiFi or FM radio transmitters?

May I use this icon for those caches too?

I hope so :-)

That's what I took it to mean, so my recent cache that uses 3 different technologies for "beacons" now includes that icon.

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Whats up with caches using WiFi or FM radio transmitters?

May I use this icon for those caches too?

I hope so :-)

That's what I took it to mean, so my recent cache that uses 3 different technologies for "beacons" now includes that icon.

 

I have one cache with FM transmitter an one with WiFi.

Both cache descriptions now have the beacon icon.

'Hope no cacher will be worry that no Garmin Chirp is used in above caches :-}

We'll see.

 

Martin

aka WEINEMA

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Good article, thanks for the pointer. If these catch on, then 3rd party receiver applications wouldn't be far behind. Maybe Groundspeak will even roll the necessary code into their own iPhone and Android apps.

 

But I'm not too worried about it yet. Just for perspective, I ran a pocket query for caches with the new beacon icon. I only found one within my search range, and even that one is 258 kilometres away :rolleyes:

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My log for my first chirp find:

4th to find. I believe that's correct. Chirp showed 4 logs (mine included) and I wish I had looked at the logsheet better. I think there were 3 names before me (could have been 2) they were so small, I'm not sure. Anyway... what fun! My unit did not receive the signal right away. I took a little walking about and maybe 20 or 30 seconds before it kicked in. Of course you need to tell the unit "yes" on search for chirps, but once you do that the setting seems to stick even though you turn it off. So if you have trouble make sure you've done the update and turned it on. GPX fix said that the info other than the coords disappear once you walk away for the chirp; I did not find this to be the case. The info is still there. As to the difficulty rating, I don't care what it is set at but here is what I think. Difficulty ratings have to do with physical or mental challenge -what you have to go through to complete the cache. As far as specialized equipment, that only refers to the physical portion. Something that must be used to obtain the cache physically. Specialized knowledge statement is not equipment and applies to the mental difficulty. Chip enabled would fall into the cataloger of "having a GPS" "compasses" "Where I Go" enabled" "Mapping GPS's", general technology, which is just part of the game and really does not complete the 'required physical aid' portion of the rating as I see it.

Personally, I think I'm going to buy a chirp and a vehicle travel bug, put the chirp and the bug in the window, and folks can grab the info from my chirp as we drive down the road. :rolleyes: Thanks Towtrkdug for a fun one!

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GPX fix said that the info other than the coords disappear once you walk away for the chirp; I did not find this to be the case. The info is still there.

 

Correction on that (and I think I updated the post).

 

What I found later is that you won't lose the "chirp message" when you walk away from the chirp but you will if you walk away and for some reason the unit powers off. The only thing you are left with at that point is the waypoint created for the chirp which only has the name and coordinates. It would seem to be an easy fix for Garmin to add the message as the waypoint "note".

 

The other related issue is if you find a second chirp. All information about the first chirp is erased I believe, including the waypoint. I haven't had a chance to verify this but if someone has two chirps it would be nice to confirm! Garmin should provide a way to save the special "chirp waypoint" (saved in E:\Garmin\GPX\Nav\Chirp.gpx) as a regular waypoint so the information is not overwritten upon discovery of the next chirp.

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I have heard that the instructions that come with the device is better suited for TP instead. I was wondering if somebody who is pretty technical could possibly writeup a short tutorial on how to use it and set it up.

First, update your firmware.

 

Go to your setup screen and enable chirp searching (likely under geocaching setup).

 

Insert battery into chirp (I hate the design - be careful not to break a fingernail).

 

After that, it should detect the chirp, and you should have a menu option to program it.

 

I found that I could do a few things on mine (Oregon 300):

 

1. Send it a waypoint. Coordinates, name and notes are sent over.

2. Send it a geocache. Coordinates, name and hints are sent over.

3. Send name alone (9 characters)

4. Send text alone (50 characters)

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GPX fix said that the info other than the coords disappear once you walk away for the chirp; I did not find this to be the case. The info is still there.

 

Correction on that (and I think I updated the post).

 

What I found later is that you won't lose the "chirp message" when you walk away from the chirp but you will if you walk away and for some reason the unit powers off. The only thing you are left with at that point is the waypoint created for the chirp which only has the name and coordinates. It would seem to be an easy fix for Garmin to add the message as the waypoint "note".

 

The other related issue is if you find a second chirp. All information about the first chirp is erased I believe, including the waypoint. I haven't had a chance to verify this but if someone has two chirps it would be nice to confirm! Garmin should provide a way to save the special "chirp waypoint" (saved in E:\Garmin\GPX\Nav\Chirp.gpx) as a regular waypoint so the information is not overwritten upon discovery of the next chirp.

Thanks g-o-cachers, Yes, that is correct, you lose all data on the first if you come across another. I bought a chirp and now it see that one only; so if you are using one as a vehicle travel bug in your car, and get back into your car, will yours override the one you just found? What if you have a goto on the first active?

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If it works like any other nav-to-coordinates, you should be able to jump directly to the Waypoint Manager, select the temporary waypoint, change the name, and save it as a permanent waypoint.

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Garmin definitely needs to address the problem of overriding Chirp data with another Chirp. Once you find one, it needs to be stored in the device with a special chirp icon, or something. Having only one at a time, each being overridden by the next is a problem, especially if these things actually catch on. I suspect Garmin already realizes this and will probably update software in the not-to-distant future.

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Do I understand correctly :

 

- does it mean that Garmin chirps will be compatible only with Garmin products ?

- no 3rd party solution to communicate with Garmin chirps will be available ?

- ANT communication protocol between GPS and chirps will stay Garmin property and non published ?

 

Could Groundspeak propose its own "chirps" ? with an open-source ANT protocol that could be implemented on various 3rd party GPS or tablets or PCs ?

No I don't think so because the message that got that reply from Garmin didn't ask any of those questions - see post #201.

 

Looking very superficially at ANT+, the protocol seems to support encryption. If they are using it, then Chirp is a closed shop until Garmin decide otherwise. If they're not and the messages are sent in the clear, well it probably wont be long before an enterprising person with the right skills and equipment can put together an independent implementation :)

 

[edit for typo :rolleyes: ]

Edited by JeremyR

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My Oregon 550 does not appear to be saving my Chirp as a waypoint at all. I can't find a record of it having ever seen my Chirp after I leave its presence. If I turn my GPS off, and go back around it, it finds it again, and the process starts all over.

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Looking very superficially at ANT+, the protocol seems to support encryption. If they are using it, then Chirp is a closed shop until Garmin decide otherwise...
Not entirely accurate. It's an open format available to all ANT+ member companies. Other companies can make Chirp-like beacons; and other companies can make receivers to use them. Edited by lee_rimar

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It's an open format available to all ANT+ member companies. Other companies can make Chirp-like beacons; and other companies can make receivers to use them.

 

You may be free to use the ant+ communication protocol, but that does not mean that they have to share encryption/password data. Everyone may be able to see the ANT but without the info from Garmin about how chirp encoding works the data would be useless.

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Not entirely accurate. It's an open format available to all ANT+ member companies. Other companies can make Chirp-like beacons; and other companies can make receivers to use them.

I guess my superficial skim was too superficial :P I missed that the ANT stack underlying ANT+ was proprietary. Whoops :D

 

You may be free to use the ant+ communication protocol, but that does not mean that they have to share encryption/password data. Everyone may be able to see the ANT but without the info from Garmin about how chirp encoding works the data would be useless.

But this is what I was getting at - if Garmin have implemented encryption in any way, either via ANT/ANT+ or by by encrypting the payload itself, then it's all irrelevant because the keys to the castle will be in their hands with not a thing that can be done about it, paid up ANT+ member or not.

 

However... Garmin have been open with their protocols before now so hopefully they will be again :)

Edited by JeremyR

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If there's enough of a drive for it in the right people, the encryption will get cracked.

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If there's enough of a drive for it in the right people, the encryption will get cracked.

Doesn't mean that you can legally make products that uses the encryption and sell it in the US, thanks to the DMCA.

Edited by Chrysalides

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If there's enough of a drive for it in the right people, the encryption will get cracked.

Doesn't mean that you can legally make products that uses the encryption and sell it in the US, thanks to the DMCA.

Go offshore & DIY. It hasn't stopped decryption for DVDs & Blu-Ray. Once the genie's out of the bottle, it's over.

 

Publish the code for doing it outside North America. Include instructions for integrating with some hardware and you're set.

Edited by dakboy

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Again, in case anyone missed this:

It should be noted that the Chirp device – while made by Garmin, could be utilized by any ANT+ device if the firmware was updated to talk with it. The Chirp device operates via ANT+ using the newly created ANT+ Geocache Node Device Profile, which is available and accessible to all ANT+ members (hundreds of companies). The current Geocache Device Node Profile is in Alpha state from an engineering standpoint, but is moving through the finalizing stages. Nonetheless, at this point, any ANT+ vendor could take advantage of it – just like any ANT+ vendor could use a speed/cadence sensor device profile. In other words, there’s in theory nothing stopping anybody from developing an iPhone app or Android app that could operate with it.

 

I confirmed with the folks at ANT that his is indeed using the Geocache Node profile. The profile is currently in Alpha form, but is essentially “about 2 days of work and a conference call“ away from being in beta form and sent out to members. The profile details are however available today to any ANT+ alliance member that wants to start development against it.

Source: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/10/look-at...-potential.html

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My Oregon 550 does not appear to be saving my Chirp as a waypoint at all. I can't find a record of it having ever seen my Chirp after I leave its presence. If I turn my GPS off, and go back around it, it finds it again, and the process starts all over.

Yes, correct. Having found one today that provided a waypoint (coordinates) it seems to me, if I recall correctly, you can "GOTO" to that waypoint and it basically functioned as such. As long as you did not turn it off it retained all the info as well, and would continue to unless you picked up another Chirp. If you turn it off I guess you lose the info but keep the coordinates until you hit another Chirp. If the chirp does not provide coordinates then there is no "GOTO" and anytime you get out of range of the chirp, the info goes away until you approach the Chirp again when it grabs it again. I think this is all correct, but I'll have to play with it some more. I also don't think there is the ability to "Save a waypoint" from the Chirp's waypoint.

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If there's enough of a drive for it in the right people, the encryption will get cracked.

depends. we may not be talking simple data encryption. a sufficiently strong public-key encryption would be de-facto uncrackable.

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same issue here

I know there are at least 3 Chirp caches so far (from the links posted here and elsewhere), but when I do a pocket query of all caches with the only choice/attribute selected as chirp and 25000mile radius, I only get 1 cache

 

any ideas why its not showing all of them instead??

 

But I'm not too worried about it yet. Just for perspective, I ran a pocket query for caches with the new beacon icon. I only found one within my search range, and even that one is 258 kilometres away :D

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question

once you find the chirp the 1st time, say you move away and lose signal and then come back to get the signal broadcasting again

 

does it log this new "find" on the chirp as a new find/user in its memory/log or does it recognize it as the same user?

I would think this would be important for the cache owner to get an accurate count of actual finders instead of those that just go back and forth to and away from the cache to rack up the chirp counter on purpose

 

anyone w/ a chirp should try this and respond back for all here

 

Yes, correct. Having found one today that provided a waypoint (coordinates) it seems to me, if I recall correctly, you can "GOTO" to that waypoint and it basically functioned as such. As long as you did not turn it off it retained all the info as well, and would continue to unless you picked up another Chirp. If you turn it off I guess you lose the info but keep the coordinates until you hit another Chirp. If the chirp does not provide coordinates then there is no "GOTO" and anytime you get out of range of the chirp, the info goes away until you approach the Chirp again when it grabs it again. I think this is all correct, but I'll have to play with it some more. I also don't think there is the ability to "Save a waypoint" from the Chirp's waypoint.

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Yes, every time I return to my chirp in my car it counts me again. Right now I just have a message in it that says "EraSeek's future Travel Bug" . I think I have a count up to 4.

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