GeoTrolls - Community Awareness?

[+Grin-Cat]

I was told that "GeoTroll" has become part of the cacher's vocabulary list as I was discussing an active cache thief in the area with a friend. Here in Gilbert, AZ we have an active thief. So far this week I have come across three of his signature yellow stickers that he leaves at GZ to let cachers know he has stolen the cache and it's contents. Some of these caches were were found only a few days before I went to GZ to be disappointed by his prominent yellow sticker affixed to a rock, wall or tree; which in my opinion constitutes trash in the environment more than a compliant geocache.

 

I know that there is little to be done about preventing this looser from stealing the caches and their contents and that the subject comes up regularly. However it occurs to me that it may be worthwhile if there is clearly a thief working an area to let the caching community of that area know. It seems prudent to be aware that there may be somebody lurking around or watching cache sights. This awareness isn't to encourage confrontation, instead it should encourage caution. Thieves are not likely to react well or reasonably when confronted and an accidental encounter could have very unhappy results too.

 

I wouldn't want to give them any more attention than necessary and raise the question to see if the forums find merit. It may even be something that isn't handled here at all and may be better handled by the state caching associations and their forums.

 

Please weigh in, and leave your 2 cents.

[+Coldgears]

Lucky!!!! The recent cache theif of northeast philly took the cache and left nothing behind... A simple sticker would be nice!

[AZcachemeister]

This is (if I'm not mistaken) the third year this has gone on.

It's nothing new, and there is little to be done except to ignore it and move on.

 

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

[mddbkzr]

So then the question remains... has anyone reported these thefts to the police? At some point they will get some fingerprints and start to narrow it down...

[+Touchstone]

Please weigh in, and leave your 2 cents.

 

I don't think it serves any useful purpose to post a Regional problem in an International Forum, other than what AZCachemeister succinctly stated.

[+gelfling6]

Except, it's not a regional problem.. It has become a national problem, at least here in the USA.. And, I imagine once the trolls get the idea "Hey! This might be fun to cause havoc!", it'll become a international problem.. Outside the USA is hardly immune. The problem is, the one case of the person being arrested for theft of a geocache, is an isolated incident itself. Unfortunately, the police will actually look at it, and say the same thing as the "Not My Problem: people here.. Vandalism is still a crime, but the problem is too many love to grey-area the whole thing..

 

It's just like if someone stole a cell phone, the police responce will be, "Okay, just call the company who provided the phone, and have them disable it." Okay, well and fine.. But what about the contents of that phone? Names, numbers, photos, Information (welcome to the world of smart phones). TB Tags, Geocoins, fall under Petty theft. But the true worth of these are in the distance traveled, where they've been. At least to us, they're worth a lot!

 

But, these malicious thieves, are becoming more and more prevalent. But, to answer Touchstone, and AZCachemaster, to stop feeding the trolls, are you suggesting we stop geocaching all together? this would be the only way to stop the rash of thefts. Turning our backs on it, is not going to solve the problem.

[jd-mitchell]

could this also be used as a way to expose geocaching to the police, so that they know what's going on with us (as a group)? that way, if word gets out about the hobby,the cops won't automatically think the worst, & be able to explain to others about it.

[+Sol seaker]

The caches are actually property of those who place them (hence the term "cache OWNER")

 

It would be nice if we could catch the criminal (s)

 

I doubt the police would spend any time on it, but if a group could recognize some sort of pattern, then perhaps he could be caught and the police called.

 

It would take a group of people keeping good records of what he has stolen, and evidence, such as things that might have fingerprints on them, such as stickers (without the cachers touching them), and any cache materials found in the trash.

 

A video recording of the guy in action would be most helpful.

 

Build a solid case against him, then catch him in the act, call the police and hand over the evidence.

 

The guy is a thief. It would set a good example. We need that.

 

 

Anybody here a lawyer?

[+astrowolf67]

Hi, I'm sort of new here, well, I haven't cached in a while. But, having experienced theft of my daughter's Sunday school class cache just a few short months after placing it, this subject hits home. If you are a member of a local club, I'd suggest a collective purchase of a wildlife camera, that you could hide on a tree. It would only take pics when there is activity at the cache. The types of caches the thief is taking should give a clue which ones could be future targets. Once you have the pic of the thief, take it to the local police, and, if they won't pursue it, consider posting the pic on the cache page, and also contact local clubs and distribute the pics to them.

 

David

[+GeoGeeBee]

Do people not even glance at the active threads on a forum before posting nowdays?

[+Grin-Cat]

Most of these posts are off topic for what I expected to be considered.

 

I am not concerned with catching the perp, or the legality of their actions. I have read the history and I don't believe that there is any realistic way to prevent the thefts or stop them. I don't think law enforcement anywhere is going to spend any time or resources on this - even if we brought them clear video tape evidence and an address to pick him up at.

 

My question is: Should we, as a community, have a mechanism to let the community know that there is a GeoTroll operating in an area? The purpose is to raise the awareness of cachers in that area that there is an additional danger. If we should decide that it is important enough to do it, should that mechanism be here, or would it be better served at a more local level?

[+Touchstone]

...or would it be better served at a more local level?

 

I voted for this option earlier. A local Forum would be best, as even the Regional Forums on GC.com cover immense areas.

 

If you don't have a local group, you could always set up a Yahoo Group or Facebook Group to alert people in your immediate area.

[+larzanth]

A very lively discussion so far. I too have been the victim of what you term a geotroll, however I prefer the name cache wrecker. Their sole intent is to trash the game. So here are my two cents worth.

 

I am an avid cacher not in the States but in Okinawa, Japan. We have to be very stealthy and come up with very devious hide techniques to avoid our caches from being muggled. Even though we are either placing the caches on public land or gaining permission from the land owner, most folks here do not know what caching is, and become very curious when they see a foreigner (specifically a caucasian) snooping around with a strange electronic device.

 

While caching in the States, I found it to be a lot different. In most cases, there was no camo involved or very little. Some were really well placed, but I remember one where I stepped off a bike trail and just on the other side of a tree was an ammo can without anything covering it up. So I think a good rule to follow is, it should be obvious to the cacher who has visited the cache page, but not to anyone else that randomly stumbles upon the location.

 

In the case where my cache was wrecked, the wrecker left behind a note, "Thanks for your presents." Hmm. Since then I have made all of my caches premium member only. Why? I figure if the wrecker is checking the cache page first, at least I will know that they've paid some due before they decided to wreck my cache, and in most cases a wrecker will not go through the hassle of paying a $30 fee just to wreck a cache. Another great thing though about the premium member only cache is it provides you with an audit trail. This is an excellent means of providing evidence if you ever can figure out who is wrecking your cache.

[+lachupa]

I have not run into this personally but I've read about it on other forum posts. I really don't think you're going to get any help from the police though. Around here you can barely get the police to investigate a car theft so reporting the theft of a little plastic box full of random junk isn't going to get you very far.

 

I'm curious about the comment that making a cache premium member only would provide an audit trail. How so?

 

I don't necessarily think the problem is the actual hide since these cache rats are not randomly stumbling across a cache and taking them. They appear to be specifically hunting them down.

 

Maybe the premium member only cache idea will slow it down, but considering that they're going to the trouble to actually create little stickers and all $30 might not be enough of a deterrent.

 

So I guess the bottom line is...nuthin' I gots nuthin'

 

All you can really do is annoy them by constantly replacing the caches they've stolen in the hopes that they'll lose interest and find someone else to annoy.

[kb9vgr]

 

Maybe the premium member only cache idea will slow it down, but considering that they're going to the trouble to actually create little stickers and all $30 might not be enough of a deterrent.

 

So I guess the bottom line is...nuthin' I gots nuthin'

 

All you can really do is annoy them by constantly replacing the caches they've stolen in the hopes that they'll lose interest and find someone else to annoy.

I have something actually 2

1) we had a guy in indiana do this he chained the ammo can to the tree it was in was a wonderful hide the chain was covered in dirt around the tree so you had to come in the right way to find it

2) devious deceptive and difficult puzzles along with a good hide i remember a cache hat went 3 years without being found "The Messengers Demise"

[+Ambient_Skater]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

[+jellis]

I have heard reports of (a strange one) the logsheets missing. The caches are undisturbed but the log sheets are removed.

Yes if you can afford it get a motion sensored camera like a trail cam.

[+BlueDeuce]

My question is: Should we, as a community, have a mechanism to let the community know that there is a GeoTroll operating in an area?

 

Absolutely not. Trolls feed on attention and you just offered them up a buffet. Also looking at the example of astrowolf67 whose cache was probably moved nearby or carried off by a muggle, not stolen, you are setting up an environment to feed fear and suspicion.

 

If your caches are being stolen, don't give the thief attention and make the caches harder to find. Trolls are usually lazy and will move on to easier targets if they don't get the attention they desire. If it gets bad, contact your local police station and make a report.

[+dphickey]

Hide a bunch of Nano's in the 5/5 range. Make the troll work for them. He'll get bored really quick.

[knowschad]

Most of these posts are off topic for what I expected to be considered.

 

I am not concerned with catching the perp, or the legality of their actions. I have read the history and I don't believe that there is any realistic way to prevent the thefts or stop them. I don't think law enforcement anywhere is going to spend any time or resources on this - even if we brought them clear video tape evidence and an address to pick him up at.

 

My question is: Should we, as a community, have a mechanism to let the community know that there is a GeoTroll operating in an area? The purpose is to raise the awareness of cachers in that area that there is an additional danger. If we should decide that it is important enough to do it, should that mechanism be here, or would it be better served at a more local level?

 

Word of mouth should be sufficient. Even a thread as thoughtfully and carefully worded as yours does nothing but feed the ego of this person. I, for one, would be totally happy to never hear about this again, because that means that your thief is also not reading about his exploits.

[knowschad]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

Not clever, funny, nor appropriate.

[+Mushroom finder]

Maybe it's someone who feels that "lame" micros on trailhead signs are "blocking" better placements nearby so he/she devised this evil scheme to potentially persuade CO's into archiving their stolen cache rather than replacing it so the troll can hide their own. It would be interesting to see if any new caches pop up in the immediate vicinity of any of the targeted caches that do get archived.

[+Sol seaker]

Don't feed the trolls.

 

I've mentioned before, that there were really horrible posts happening for a while. We had a topic on "off-topic" about them. We posted about them every time they came up. They got worse and worse until there were moderators up all night every night dealing with it.

 

We closed down that thread and there hasn't been another one since.

 

They want attention. I suggest we don't give it to them.

 

Don't feed the trolls.

 

And yes, the police have dealt with this, in one case making an arrest. the guy went to court and was fined and now has a criminal record.

 

 

(this subject is about something different than a cache being muggled.

when a cache is muggled it is taken by someone who accidently comes across it and takes it not knowing what it is.

This thread is referring to people who know what the caches are and intentionally take them to make people mad. Don't feed them. Ignore them. They may get bored and go away. )

[+Ambient_Skater]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

Not clever, funny, nor appropriate.

I'm not here just to please you, Fido.

[AZcachemeister]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

Not clever, funny, nor appropriate.

I'm not here just to please you, Fido.

 

[Mr.Yuck]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

Not clever, funny, nor appropriate.

I'm not here just to please you, Fido.

 

I think he prefers Rover.

[Clan Riffster]

Yes if you can afford it get a motion sensored camera like a trail cam.

Hopefully, the troll won't steal the camera.

[knowschad]

The real question is do you still get to log the find.

Not clever, funny, nor appropriate.

I'm not here just to please you, Fido.

I suspect that I was speaking for more than just the dog. Take it for what its worth.

[+dorqie]

I was told that "GeoTroll" has become part of the cacher's vocabulary list as I was discussing an active cache thief in the area with a friend. Here in Gilbert, AZ we have an active thief. So far this week I have come across three of his signature yellow stickers that he leaves at GZ to let cachers know he has stolen the cache and it's contents. Some of these caches were were found only a few days before I went to GZ to be disappointed by his prominent yellow sticker affixed to a rock, wall or tree; which in my opinion constitutes trash in the environment more than a compliant geocache.

 

I know that there is little to be done about preventing this looser from stealing the caches and their contents and that the subject comes up regularly. However it occurs to me that it may be worthwhile if there is clearly a thief working an area to let the caching community of that area know. It seems prudent to be aware that there may be somebody lurking around or watching cache sights. This awareness isn't to encourage confrontation, instead it should encourage caution. Thieves are not likely to react well or reasonably when confronted and an accidental encounter could have very unhappy results too.

 

I wouldn't want to give them any more attention than necessary and raise the question to see if the forums find merit. It may even be something that isn't handled here at all and may be better handled by the state caching associations and their forums.

 

Please weigh in, and leave your 2 cents.

 

They are probably not lurking around the corner watching gz, like geocache peepers. They are probably using a geocaching account to get co-ords and then are stealing the cache.

 

We had one in my area, he would spray paint his name on cache sites, and then he would upload videos of him destroying tbs to youtube. He would contacts TB owners and COs and demand ransom for the safe return of their items. The guy needed to get a life.

Someone actually did call the cops, and there was a PI hired to get information about him, I know the PI and he was one of the first people to introduce me to geocaching, he found out about it from his involvement in this case. So, it's not just a sob story.

 

Back to the OP, there's nothing you can do about it except what's already been stated "Don't feed the trolls" Don't give them any attention, replace stolen caches, chances are low that they will go back and re-steal them. They will get bored and find something else to do.

[+Manville Possum]

Please weigh in, and leave your 2 cents.

 

I don't think it serves any useful purpose to post a Regional problem in an International Forum, other than what AZCachemeister succinctly stated.

I think that you made GeoTroll happy with your thread. Trolls need attention. Don't feed them.

[+hukilaulau]

This awareness isn't to encourage confrontation, instead it should encourage caution. Thieves are not likely to react well or reasonably when confronted and an accidental encounter could have very unhappy results too.

 

Please weigh in, and leave your 2 cents.

Meeting a cache thief by chance in the desert? I would consider that my lucky day... I might not react well or reasonably, but I would be happy with the result.

[Andronicus]

Considering my local cops didn't even care when someone tried to steal my car, I don't think they will care that someone stole, what to them, is a piece of garbage.

 

Best bet, don't feed the troll. If I was the one to discover the theift, I wouldn't even post a log on the cache page, just a private note to the CO.

 

Edit: As for the OP question about a "Theif in area" warning system, that would likely only make things worse by feeding the trolls to the point of turning it into a game.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Andronicus

[+dorqie]

Considering my local cops didn't even care when someone tried to steal my car, I don't think they will care that someone stole, what to them, is a piece of garbage.

 

Best bet, don't feed the troll. If I was the one to discover the theift, I wouldn't even post a log on the cache page, just a private note to the CO.

 

Edit: As for the OP question about a "Theif in area" warning system, that would likely only make things worse by feeding the trolls to the point of turning it into a game.

 

Our local cops didn't really care about the tbs/caches, they cared that this particular maggot was phoning/emailing people to harass them and demand ransom.

 

I've never heard of another geo-troll with that much time on their hands though.

[Andronicus]

Considering my local cops didn't even care when someone tried to steal my car, I don't think they will care that someone stole, what to them, is a piece of garbage.

 

Best bet, don't feed the troll. If I was the one to discover the theift, I wouldn't even post a log on the cache page, just a private note to the CO.

 

Edit: As for the OP question about a "Theif in area" warning system, that would likely only make things worse by feeding the trolls to the point of turning it into a game.

 

Our local cops didn't really care about the tbs/caches, they cared that this particular maggot was phoning/emailing people to harass them and demand ransom.

 

I've never heard of another geo-troll with that much time on their hands though.

Soundls like your police are a little more carring than ours. Unless it makes it to the news, ours don't seem to bat an eye (unless you are speeding, then you are in for it...)

[Clan Riffster]

Meeting a cache thief by chance in the desert? I would consider that my lucky day... I might not react well or reasonably, but I would be happy with the result.

I was thinking the same thing about meeting a cache thief deep in a swamp. I can't guarantee a rational or prudent response, (though that's the outcome I would hope for), but it would certainly be interesting.

[+Mushroom finder]

The idea of reporting a stolen geocache to the cops is laughable to me, at least where I live.

 

5 years ago my old room mate's utility trailer was stolen from my fenced front yard. When he ran out to stop them they stuck a gun in his face as they drove away. The response from the cops was "You've got a better chance of finding it yourself than we do".

 

3 years ago my kayak was also stolen from my property. The cops wouldn't even take a report. A few months later I found the culprit driving around with it in his pickup. I called the cops as I followed him home (ironically just three blocks from my home). The guy's story was that he borrowed it from a friend but he didn't know his friend's name, where he lived or his phone number. Even though I had my original store receipt and photos of the kayak, he was told to keep it since I had never officially reported it stolen.

 

2 years ago my 1 year old Honda mower was stolen from my shed. Again, they could not be bothered with a report.

 

Last year a drugged up guy tried to kick in my front door while my wife was home alone one night. I was due home from work any minute so my wife thought it was me and opened the door! Luckily the guy ran away but not before trying to get in her car first. The cops promised they would be right out. That was at 11:30 PM. At 8:00 AM after waiting for them to show up all night and three additional calls, I gave up and went to bed. We live less than a mile from the police station BTW.

 

I can only imagine the hysterical laughter that would come through the phone if I called to report that someone had stolen the tupperware container full of army men, Happy Meal toys, bouncy balls and squirt guns that I left under a rock in a public park.

[GOF and Bacall]

The idea of reporting a stolen geocache to the cops is laughable to me, at least where I live.

 

5 years ago my old room mate's utility trailer was stolen from my fenced front yard. When he ran out to stop them they stuck a gun in his face as they drove away. The response from the cops was "You've got a better chance of finding it yourself than we do".

 

3 years ago my kayak was also stolen from my property. The cops wouldn't even take a report. A few months later I found the culprit driving around with it in his pickup. I called the cops as I followed him home (ironically just three blocks from my home). The guy's story was that he borrowed it from a friend but he didn't know his friend's name, where he lived or his phone number. Even though I had my original store receipt and photos of the kayak, he was told to keep it since I had never officially reported it stolen.

 

2 years ago my 1 year old Honda mower was stolen from my shed. Again, they could not be bothered with a report.

 

Last year a drugged up guy tried to kick in my front door while my wife was home alone one night. I was due home from work any minute so my wife thought it was me and opened the door! Luckily the guy ran away but not before trying to get in her car first. The cops promised they would be right out. That was at 11:30 PM. At 8:00 AM after waiting for them to show up all night and three additional calls, I gave up and went to bed. We live less than a mile from the police station BTW.

 

I can only imagine the hysterical laughter that would come through the phone if I called to report that someone had stolen the tupperware container full of army men, Happy Meal toys, bouncy balls and squirt guns that I left under a rock in a public park.

 

I don't know where you live but you should move.

[Andronicus]

The idea of reporting a stolen geocache to the cops is laughable to me, at least where I live.

 

5 years ago my old room mate's utility trailer was stolen from my fenced front yard. When he ran out to stop them they stuck a gun in his face as they drove away. The response from the cops was "You've got a better chance of finding it yourself than we do".

 

3 years ago my kayak was also stolen from my property. The cops wouldn't even take a report. A few months later I found the culprit driving around with it in his pickup. I called the cops as I followed him home (ironically just three blocks from my home). The guy's story was that he borrowed it from a friend but he didn't know his friend's name, where he lived or his phone number. Even though I had my original store receipt and photos of the kayak, he was told to keep it since I had never officially reported it stolen.

 

2 years ago my 1 year old Honda mower was stolen from my shed. Again, they could not be bothered with a report.

 

Last year a drugged up guy tried to kick in my front door while my wife was home alone one night. I was due home from work any minute so my wife thought it was me and opened the door! Luckily the guy ran away but not before trying to get in her car first. The cops promised they would be right out. That was at 11:30 PM. At 8:00 AM after waiting for them to show up all night and three additional calls, I gave up and went to bed. We live less than a mile from the police station BTW.

 

I can only imagine the hysterical laughter that would come through the phone if I called to report that someone had stolen the tupperware container full of army men, Happy Meal toys, bouncy balls and squirt guns that I left under a rock in a public park.

 

I don't know where you live but you should move.

I think that that is a common attitude from police in large centers where they haven't yet had to get serious about crive (i.e. they are low or medium crime rates). It is like that here as well (see my previous post).

[+The_Incredibles_]

The idea of reporting a stolen geocache to the cops is laughable to me, at least where I live.

 

5 years ago my old room mate's utility trailer was stolen from my fenced front yard. When he ran out to stop them they stuck a gun in his face as they drove away. The response from the cops was "You've got a better chance of finding it yourself than we do".

 

3 years ago my kayak was also stolen from my property. The cops wouldn't even take a report. A few months later I found the culprit driving around with it in his pickup. I called the cops as I followed him home (ironically just three blocks from my home). The guy's story was that he borrowed it from a friend but he didn't know his friend's name, where he lived or his phone number. Even though I had my original store receipt and photos of the kayak, he was told to keep it since I had never officially reported it stolen.

 

2 years ago my 1 year old Honda mower was stolen from my shed. Again, they could not be bothered with a report.

 

Last year a drugged up guy tried to kick in my front door while my wife was home alone one night. I was due home from work any minute so my wife thought it was me and opened the door! Luckily the guy ran away but not before trying to get in her car first. The cops promised they would be right out. That was at 11:30 PM. At 8:00 AM after waiting for them to show up all night and three additional calls, I gave up and went to bed. We live less than a mile from the police station BTW.

 

I can only imagine the hysterical laughter that would come through the phone if I called to report that someone had stolen the tupperware container full of army men, Happy Meal toys, bouncy balls and squirt guns that I left under a rock in a public park.

 

I don't know where you live but you should move.

 

+1

 

We had a bicycle stolen on our street and the police are keen to start up a block-watch program.