Locationless caches

[Clan Riffster]

It's not clear to me how that's any less official than anything else on Groundspeak's site.

Awesome! Then I can log them, right? After all, we all seem to agree on what "grandfathered" means.

 

Unless, of course, when they built that page they stuck Locationless there because some folks might be curious about the icon, and it didn't fit under the active cache types? Rather than create a separate heading titled, "Cache types that no one can ever log again", some web designer stuck it under Grandfathered? Maybe? That would certainly explain the discrepancy between that page, which teaches the basics of the game, and the Guidelines which spell out, more clearly, the behaviors and standards that govern our favorite hobby.

[AZcachemeister]

You can FIND THEM all day long!

But, you can't log them on Geocaching.com.

[+addisonbr]

It's not clear to me how that's any less official than anything else on Groundspeak's site.

Awesome! Then I can log them, right? After all, we all seem to agree on what "grandfathered" means.

 

Unless, of course, when they built that page they stuck Locationless there because some folks might be curious about the icon, and it didn't fit under the active cache types? Rather than create a separate heading titled, "Cache types that no one can ever log again", some web designer stuck it under Grandfathered? Maybe? That would certainly explain the discrepancy between that page, which teaches the basics of the game, and the Guidelines which spell out, more clearly, the behaviors and standards that govern our favorite hobby.

This is almost exactly the point. Using the term "Grandfathered" to describe caches that can't be created or logged anymore is creating confusion. Groundspeak should use a different term to describe these caches, than what they are using on that page. "Discontinued" perhaps. Whatever it is, I hope we'd agree that eliminating the discrepancy would be a good thing.

 

I think it's reasonable to take a gentle tone with folks who take what is published on Groundspeak's pages at face value. It's hard to tell newer cachers that if they see something on Groundspeak's site they should cross-reference it elsewhere to make sure that a busy web developer didn't pull a fast one.

Edited October 8, 2010 by addisonbr

[GOF and Bacall]

It's not clear to me how that's any less official than anything else on Groundspeak's site.

Awesome! Then I can log them, right? After all, we all seem to agree on what "grandfathered" means.

 

Unless, of course, when they built that page they stuck Locationless there because some folks might be curious about the icon, and it didn't fit under the active cache types? Rather than create a separate heading titled, "Cache types that no one can ever log again", some web designer stuck it under Grandfathered? Maybe? That would certainly explain the discrepancy between that page, which teaches the basics of the game, and the Guidelines which spell out, more clearly, the behaviors and standards that govern our favorite hobby.

This is almost exactly the point. Using the term "Grandfathered" to describe caches that can't be created or logged anymore is creating confusion. Groundspeak should use a different term to describe these caches, than what they are using on that page. "Discontinued" perhaps. Whatever it is, I hope we'd agree that eliminating the discrepancy would be a good thing.

 

I think it's reasonable to take a gentle tone with folks who take what is published on Groundspeak's pages at face value. It's hard to tell newer cachers that if they see something on Groundspeak's site they should cross-reference it elsewhere to make sure that a lazy web developer didn't pull a fast one.

 

Speaking of gentle, perhaps busy web developer would be a better choice of words.

[+addisonbr]

Speaking of gentle, perhaps busy web developer would be a better choice of words.

Fixed!

[Keystone]

It's not clear to me how that's any less official than anything else on Groundspeak's site.

Awesome! Then I can log them, right? After all, we all seem to agree on what "grandfathered" means.

 

Unless, of course, when they built that page they stuck Locationless there because some folks might be curious about the icon, and it didn't fit under the active cache types? Rather than create a separate heading titled, "Cache types that no one can ever log again", some web designer stuck it under Grandfathered? Maybe? That would certainly explain the discrepancy between that page, which teaches the basics of the game, and the Guidelines which spell out, more clearly, the behaviors and standards that govern our favorite hobby.

Your logic is flawed. The guidelines are silent on locationless caches because there are no longer any maintenance guidelines relating to them. That's because there are no active locationless caches. Virtuals and Webcams must remain in the listing guidelines solely as to their ongoing maintenance obligations. That's because there are still active virtual and webcam caches.

 

I wouldn't draw any further conclusions than that. It's likely unprofitable to be arguing about grandfathers. Unless you are two gold diggers, or two hot grandmothers.

[+Isonzo Karst]

then why does the page that describes the cache listings list it under "grandfathered cache types"? Doesn't this mean that as long as they are active they are allowed?

 

Sure, but none of them are active. They're all archived. (There are a few virtual caches that have "locationless" features - mostly involving benchmarks - that are still functioning. These caches are limited geographically. They are grandfathered. They won't get you the Locationless icon. )

 

I want to know why they don't get unlocked now

 

In many cases, the cache owner is long gone from the sport. To unarchive and unlock, the caches would need an active owner and would need to meet the current listing guidelines.

 

Many Locationless that were active in late 2005 were moved by their active owner to Waymarking.com. Many that were not moved had no active owner.

 

And, of course, it would undercut Waymarking.com

[+releasethedogs]

I would happily adopt 10-15 high quality locationless caches if I could find the owners.

But yes they either need to properly grandfather which means unlock them or note they are not really grandfathered but discontinued (along with the 10 years cache).

[+Touchstone]

I would happily adopt 10-15 high quality locationless caches if I could find the owners.

 

Just for reference:

 

Adoption Policy

 

And the relevant section:

 

Grandfathered cache types cannot be transferred to a new owner. Neither the adoption tool on the website nor Groundspeak will be able to make the transfer for Virtual, Webcam or Locationless caches. Archived caches cannot be transferred, either.

[Mr.Yuck]

You can FIND THEM all day long!

But, you can't log them on Geocaching.com.

 

Yep, that list is still around, I used it the other day. If I'm not mistaken, every single one of them has been duplicated on Terracaching.com, along with about 500 new ones. So you can log them! And you get points! they even have a bizarre, complex scoring system that no one can figure out.

[+releasethedogs]

I would happily adopt 10-15 high quality locationless caches if I could find the owners.

 

Just for reference:

 

Adoption Policy

 

And the relevant section:

 

Grandfathered cache types cannot be transferred to a new owner. Neither the adoption tool on the website nor Groundspeak will be able to make the transfer for Virtual, Webcam or Locationless caches. Archived caches cannot be transferred, either.

I believe the key world was *would*

As in I would if they let me.

 

You can FIND THEM all day long!

But, you can't log them on Geocaching.com.

 

Yep, that list is still around, I used it the other day. If I'm not mistaken, every single one of them has been duplicated on Terracaching.com, along with about 500 new ones. So you can log them! And you get points! they even have a bizarre, complex scoring system that no one can figure out.

Ive already said I only want to use GC.com.

Going to Waymarking or another lesser known, inferior GCing website is not something I wish to do for reasons Ive already stated.

You can FIND THEM all day long!

But, you can't log them on Geocaching.com.

Easy for you to say, you have 22 locationless caches.

Edited October 8, 2010 by releasethedogs

[+The Blorenges]

You can FIND THEM all day long!

But, you can't log them on Geocaching.com.

 

Thanks for that link. It was interesting to browse it once again.

 

MrsB

[+Castle Mischief]

Can I have a pony?

[+Alibags]

There's a similar "should have been a locationless" still active cache in the UK too, although I don't remember what it is, nor do I care.

 

That'll be Ye Ole Survey Monuments - and like you, I really couldn't care less for it. In fact, I've managed to avoid logging it in any of it's incarnations for the past 6 ish years. But I appreciate that there will be cachers out there - particularly in the UK - for whom this will hold some appeal

 

What? Not even just the once?

 

MrsB

 

I think he's staying away from hilltops in case he falls over and injures himself. I like the YOSM cache and if I ever get to one of the way points, I am happy to log it. It normally involves a reasonable amount of physical effort to get to each point, so it's certainly not an easy smiley.

[+The Blorenges]

Can I have a pony?

 

Only if you promise to Waymark it. (There's bound to be a category that covers ponies... surely? )

 

MrsB

[+Alibags]

Ah, but when does a pony become a horse? If you cannot answer this to my satisfaction now then I demand to have both!

[Clan Riffster]

Your logic is flawed.

You may be right. It often is. Still, there remains an obvious discrepancy. As forum regulars, we can speculate on it, or we can ignore it. Everyone knows that A grandfather clause is an exception that allows an old rule to continue to apply to some existing situations, when a new rule will apply to all future situations. This definition applies perfectly to virtuals and webcam caches. It does not apply to locationless caches. Yet, there is a page in the Groundspeak resources that claims they are grandfathered. While it's certain that someones logic is flawed, I'm not certain that it's mine. Perhaps the decision to call locationless caches grandfathered, when clearly they are not, is flawed?

 

Can I have a pony?

No! That would be unfair to those who ask for one once the supply runs out.

We wouldn't want to upset the entitlement junkies, would we?

[+Touchstone]

I believe the key world was *would*

As in I would if they let me.

 

Actually you stated, "..if I could find the owners", which doesn't quite sound like you were aware of the futility of pursuing that path.

 

All that aside, I would gladly have Groundspeak remove all traces of the Locationless cache type if it could be replaced by a more integrated Stat page for all three existing sites.

[+Isonzo Karst]

grandfather clause is an exception that allows an old rule to continue to apply to some existing situations, when a new rule will apply to all future situations. This definition applies perfectly to virtuals and webcam caches. It does not apply to locationless caches.

 

It DID apply to Locationless from early 03 - to early 06. They were listed on GC.com, they were loggable, but you couldn't create one. I think the type was still in the report form when I created my first cache page (pity I didn't think to try it - I could own an archived unpublished locationless - from time to time i could admire the listing? ). Shortly thereafter the disappeared.

 

I guess the language on the cache types page could be changed, but it does really seem nearly as important as other language oddities on the site. And it won't net anyone a Locationless icon, which really seems to be the OP's point.

 

Ah, but when does a pony become a horse? If you cannot answer this to my satisfaction now then I demand to have both!

 

I don't know how satisfactory this will be, but there's a correct answer; to wit: an equine is a pony if it measures 14 hands 2 inches or less at the withers, and a horse should it stand (or grow) above that height. Hand = 4 inches, withers = top of the shoulder of the resting horse.

[+releasethedogs]

Yes, while I really like for them to unlock some locationless caches Id just me happy if they changed the wording so people don't think they are grandfathered when in fact they are not. Its confusing and frustrating.

[+Harry Dolphin]

There is, in fact, one Locationless cache that I am aware of that is active and accepting logs. It is not listed as a Locationless cache, but for all intents and purposes it is exactly a Locationless. It's called Brass Cap Cache (GC43F3) and is listed as a Virtual, but it serves as a Locationless for "Brass Cap" survey markers in Canada. It is the most logged listing in the history of geocaching, as far as I know, and is the only listing to record more than 10,000 "Found It" logs.

 

I can think of another. It appears that TPTB thought long and hard about archiving it, but decided to grandfather instead.

[+sbell111]

then why does the page that describes the cache listings list it under "grandfathered cache types"? Doesn't this mean that as long as they are active they are allowed?

Yes. You can log a find on any grandfathered cache as long as it is not archived.

 

New virtual caches are no longer listed, but finds can be logged on the remaining active ones. Therefore, anyone that want's the 'virtual' icon can get one as long as there are active virtual caches. Assuming for a moment that TPTB never get around to listing virts again, eventually all of the remaining virts will likely be archived. When this happens, no future cachers will be able to get the 'virtual' icon.

 

Similarly, all locationless caches have been archived. Therefore, no one will be able to get the 'locationless' icon in the future.

[+sbell111]

I don't recall the GPS Adventure Maze ever being in Germany. List of maze locations.

Cool list. Might I make a suggestion? Some of the locations actually don't tell where the location is. For example, May 28th - Sep 5th 2011 the Maze will be at the "Adventure Science Center". But there is no indication where the Adventure Science Center is.

I hope that I know where it is.

[+Castle Mischief]

I don't recall the GPS Adventure Maze ever being in Germany. List of maze locations.

Cool list. Might I make a suggestion? Some of the locations actually don't tell where the location is. For example, May 28th - Sep 5th 2011 the Maze will be at the "Adventure Science Center". But there is no indication where the Adventure Science Center is.

I hope that I know where it is.

 

Would that be the science center previously known as "Cumberland"?

[+sbell111]

I don't recall the GPS Adventure Maze ever being in Germany. List of maze locations.

Cool list. Might I make a suggestion? Some of the locations actually don't tell where the location is. For example, May 28th - Sep 5th 2011 the Maze will be at the "Adventure Science Center". But there is no indication where the Adventure Science Center is.

I hope that I know where it is.

 

Would that be the science center previously known as "Cumberland"?

I hope so.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

I was just wondering if some one could help me figure out how to find a locationless cache.

1 ) Fly to America.

2 ) Drive to Groundspeak Headquarters in Washington.\

3 ) Present Jeremy with 8.2 billion US dollars, cash.

4 ) He temporarily unlocks a Locationless whilst the rest of the Lackeys aren't looking.

5 ) Log it quickly.

 

I know you were obviously tongue-in-cheek but this did remind me that Earthcaches were "grandfathered" but then brought back once the organization behind them realized that they would be completely ignored on "Waymarking" even though to me bringing them back means virtuals should be back too as they are essentially a "virtual" (whereas I can understand the issues with Locationless and Waymarking is perfect for that.....if only they'd count the stats together that site would soar).

 

So money really does talk......

[+releasethedogs]

You are saying I should be playing powerball?

[+sbell111]

I know you were obviously tongue-in-cheek but this did remind me that Earthcaches were "grandfathered" but then brought back once the organization behind them realized that they would be completely ignored on "Waymarking" even though to me bringing them back means virtuals should be back too as they are essentially a "virtual" (whereas I can understand the issues with Locationless and Waymarking is perfect for that.....if only they'd count the stats together that site would soar).

Good news!!!! Virtuals ARE coming back.

[Mr.Yuck]

You are saying I should be playing powerball?

 

She's referring to the persistant rumor that The Geological Society of America paid Geocaching.com to list Earthcaches on the website. This is probably due to the fact that they are basically virtual caches at a time when virtual caches are not allowed, and people assume they must have paid for this privilege. I was once caching with a prominent reviewer who does not hide their identity, and they assured me "no money changed hands". So I'll say no money changed hands.

[+Firenze!]

I don't recall the GPS Adventure Maze ever being in Germany. List of maze locations.

Cool list. Might I make a suggestion? Some of the locations actually don't tell where the location is. For example, May 28th - Sep 5th 2011 the Maze will be at the "Adventure Science Center". But there is no indication where the Adventure Science Center is.

I hope that I know where it is.

 

Would that be the science center previously known as "Cumberland"?

 

I'm not sure what Cumberland is, but while trying to figure out where "Adventure Science Center" was I found that it is in Nashville.

 

GPS Adventures Maze

May 28 - Sept. 5, 2011:

Adventure Science Center

Nashville

http://www.adventuresci.com/default.aspx?section=exhibits&title=coming%20soon&page=254

[+narcissa]

Its not fair that people who join now can not get the icon on their profile.

 

Collecting icons is really a side game, and Groundspeak has no obligation to make it "fair." "It's not fair" is the refrain of a spoiled 12-year-old, especially over something as insignificant as an icon on your computer screen.

 

... its not fair that you have to live in the United States to get the Maze Exhibit icon.

 

The maze has visited Canada at least once, but I still had to drive for five hours to see it. How unfair.

[GOF and Bacall]

Can somebody call housekeeping? This place could use a good dusting.

[+sbell111]

I don't recall the GPS Adventure Maze ever being in Germany. List of maze locations.

Cool list. Might I make a suggestion? Some of the locations actually don't tell where the location is. For example, May 28th - Sep 5th 2011 the Maze will be at the "Adventure Science Center". But there is no indication where the Adventure Science Center is.

I hope that I know where it is.

 

Would that be the science center previously known as "Cumberland"?

 

I'm not sure what Cumberland is, but while trying to figure out where "Adventure Science Center" was I found that it is in Nashville.

 

GPS Adventures Maze

May 28 - Sept. 5, 2011:

Adventure Science Center

Nashville

http://www.adventuresci.com/default.aspx?section=exhibits&title=coming%20soon&page=254

That's the one.

Edited January 21, 2011 by sbell111