Need some advice, moral dilemna here...

[+tsunrisebey]

In Feb 2010 I had a sale for leftover coins I had lying around. I received an email last week from an overseas buyer that they did not receive their order. Now keep in mind, it's now been 7 months since that order was placed and I was never notified any time between now and then that there was a problem.

 

I'm a bit upset because as a vendor, I have no way to track that order since I no longer have a tracking number to see if it even made it to the appropriate country it was shipped to. I take all my overseas orders directly to the Post Office to be mailed and hold my US Customs forms for 2 months just in case. Nor can I officially send a "refund" as that options is gone after 45 days. Yes, I can send funds directly to the person.

 

Now just for a moment put yourself in my place, if you never heard anything from a person for 7 months and all of a sudden you get an email that they didn't get their order, what would you do? I have no more of the coins that were sold first off. I feel 7 months is waaaaaay to long to say anything. Heck I can barely remember what I ordered a month ago and who I traded what for.

 

I am in no way accusing this person of being dishonest, please understand that. This is not about feeling like I am being cheated in any way, I want to be clear about that.

 

I'm just very perplexed about what to do. I have had people email me and say they didn't get their order only to find it a bit later. I feel 7 months is just to long to expect ask a "store" to refund your money or send the product again because they didn't receive it.

 

On the other hand, I don't like dissatisfied customers and I have always resent orders or refunded but I've never come across this specific scenario.

 

I have not decided how I want to handle this yet and thought I'd just get a general opinion from folks. What do you think?

 

I now know that I will have to add another "clause" when it comes to ordering coins.

 

tsun

[+rsfish1]

Been there. Did this. If it was a small order, 1 or 2 geocoins, that could have been overlooked by the buyer, I would replace the shipment or refund, within 90 days. If it was a bigger order where I would think someone might be more cognisant that they put out a lot of money for several coins, then I would not swallow the refund outside of 90 days. They should have noticed sooner and said something.

 

Drawing the line is not always an easy thing. But 60 days is a pretty good line that you have for holding the forms. Maybe from here on out throw them in a shoebox and throw it in the closet. But they usually only show leaving the US and nothing after that any way.

 

In the end you have to go with your gut. It's never as black and white as we like to think. At 7 months, if it was me, I would not refund even if it is a few geocoins. It's way too long out of my hands.

[+luckycharmer]

I don't know of any store that will give you a refund after that long. If they had been in contact with you during that time period, that would have been different. To know that the coin was sent (You notify that it was sent) and then not received in a reasonable time, I think it would then be the buyers responsibility to notify you earlier that it did not arrive.

 

At my house, after 7 months I would assume that the coin arrived and was placed somewhere safe for me to open later but at the time just don't remember where that safe place was.

 

If it was just one coin , I might consider but even then I think to much time has passed. As a consumer I would have notified you earlier but not expect anything at this point because i would feel that I failed to keep up communication that it/they hadn't arrived.

[Theotokos]

I didn't have one for 7 months but did have one after 3 months. These same people I recall were very upset at shipping costs, wanted me to sell them other coins for cheap and the delayed in paying for a few weeks after the transaction as well. So when I got the note they didn't arrive after 3 months I was very suspicious as everyone else got their coins.

 

Reluctantly I did send new coins - but never again as to me even 3 months is too long a wait. If something hasn't shown up in 4 weeks I'm contacting the seller (or trader) right away.

 

So personally..I think 7 months is too long and it was up to them to contact you sooner. Put a disclaimer on your site saying no refunds after ??? days.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Here are some of my thoughts...

 

In Feb 2010 I had a sale for leftover coins I had lying around. I received an email last week from an overseas buyer that they did not receive their order. Now keep in mind, it's now been 7 months since that order was placed and I was never notified any time between now and then that there was a problem.

 

I'm a bit upset because as a vendor, I have no way to track that order since I no longer have a tracking number to see if it even made it to the appropriate country it was shipped to. I take all my overseas orders directly to the Post Office to be mailed and hold my US Customs forms for 2 months just in case . Nor can I officially send a "refund" as that options is gone after 45 days. Yes, I can send funds directly to the person.

 

I might start holding them for 6 months

 

Now just for a moment put yourself in my place, if you never heard anything from a person for 7 months and all of a sudden you get an email that they didn't get their order, what would you do? I have no more of the coins that were sold first off. I feel 7 months is waaaaaay to long to say anything. Heck I can barely remember what I ordered a month ago and who I traded what for.

 

I tend to agree, anything past 3 months is pushing the envelope, and beyond 6 is unreasonable.

 

I am in no way accusing this person of being dishonest, please understand that. This is not about feeling like I am being cheated in any way, I want to be clear about that.

 

I'm just very perplexed about what to do. I have had people email me and say they didn't get their order only to find it a bit later. I feel 7 months is just to long to expect ask a "store" to refund your money or send the product again because they didn't receive it.

 

Since it's practically impossible to make the original transaction whole, I think the best you can do to meet your own desire to satisfy the customer is either send some other coin(s) as replacements, or offer a store credit toward a future purchase. If you want to go all out, you could have some one off version made for them on a future coin.

 

On the other hand, I don't like dissatisfied customers and I have always resent orders or refunded but I've never come across this specific scenario.

 

I have not decided how I want to handle this yet and thought I'd just get a general opinion from folks. What do you think?

 

I now know that I will have to add another "clause" when it comes to ordering coins.

 

or three clauses

 

tsun

 

 

 

It's a difficult predicament, best of luck coming to a happy conclusion.

Edited September 23, 2010 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT

[+AtlantaGal]

Within a normal time frame, say like 60-90 days for overseas, I would consider a refund, especially if the person is one I regularly have dealt with. However, with the time that has passed here, I don't think I would worry about this one. The purchaser had a responsibility to let you know they didn't receive the items and that probably should have been forthcoming at the 4-6 week mark.

[Geocoin Design]

Tsun,

 

As a vendor concerned about the satisfaction of their customers, I personally would issue a store credit after that amount of time. Simply explain that the coin(s) in question are no longer in production, but at the same time, also explain that after 7 months, its not your responsibility to replace or refund their order.

 

Noone wants to get screwed, nor do you want to lose a customer... on the level or not.

 

90 days should be plenty of time.

 

~J

[kdlutz41]

As a purchaser I would have contacted you... I have mail several items to people in Japan, Germany and never more then two weeks.....I have received several things that I have purchased also from the Netherlands and Germany I got in 10 to 12 days...Why ..why...why had they not contacted you???

[+Degai]

I agree with the other posters. . .7 months is way too long to go without notifying someone they didn't receive his/her coins. What was he/she doing for 7 months without realizing he/she had not received the coins? I know if there was a problem, I would have said something a long time ago. I have been in the position of not receiving coins in over a month, but there was communication along the way. I don't think anyone should expect coins or a refund after 7 months-that's totally unreasonable. (Maybe you can point he/she to the forums). Ultimately, you do have to go with your gut and do what you think is best . . . always a hard call; however, I would certainly include a disclaimer in the next round of sales.

[+tsunrisebey]

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

 

Sometimes it's nice to get the perspective of others when you're wrapped up in the situation.

 

I'll give this some more thought and decide in a day or so how I want to handle it.

 

tsun

[+Droo]

While I totally agree with everyone so far who's responded and even your own conclusions, Tsun, there is a part of you that wants to make this right or come away with a win-win scenario. You have not mentioned how large the order was so just sending a refund and calling 'er dun may not be so easy for you. If it is a small order write it off but if it's larger than you're comfortable with give them say 50% since you can't verify after this long a delay what happened with your shipment. Just another point of view.... beh.

[+pastor_b]

probably have nothing new to add

 

As a buyer / customer, I am on the other side of the aisle

 

as a buyer, I presume that I should take the initiative to contact the seller/vendor

 

I don't know of anyway to track mail overseas (perhaps there is a way); if there is, then the buyer pays extra (same as in the States)

 

I have not owned my own business but I have been in the people "business" for 25+ years

 

I suppose that as most have said that this is a case to case issue....I suppose there are times when "coming the customer's way" is worth the cost

 

Most times, we who buy get in to the mode of entitlement and think that everyone owes us everything all the time...making a living off someone else...

 

Not the case!

 

I recommend: no refund or reshipment

 

just my opinion...

 

[haysonics]

Tsun,

 

7 months is waaay too long. It would be interesting to know why the buyer waited 7 months before contacting you. I can only assume he/she forgot about the order. If you are 99% sure you have dispatched all your orders then its too late for the buyer to expect you to cover coins that have been lost in the post. I have had 2 orders take 6 weeks to reach my mailbox because our customs didn't like the look of the Xrays of those packages so figure 2 months is an adequate covering period. 3 months if you want to play it really safe.

[+GATOULIS]

overseas postage, meaning mostly Europe (I do not know about Oceania), usually takes about 10 - 12 days! there is a small possibility to come a couple of days later if weekend is between or a national holiday! For example here in Greece we do not get any mails on Saturday, sunday or in national holidays etc!

 

there are Rare times that it takes a long time to come if the letter stops in customs! I had a letter from Canada that took 60 days to come and when I got it it was opend and closed again with the stamp of the Canadian Customs! Nothing was missing and everything was fine of course! It happens! But this is the longest it took for a letter to come to me!

 

Of course there is always a possibility that a letter is lost! I have lost many letters that were coming to me! Letters with geocoins, some were amazing ones, letters with banknotes that I can not find easily here (original Confederate States banknote - it was a gift and the friend send 2 letters but I received none!!!) but you can not do anything about it! If the letter is not with innsurance.... it is gone! Definately I wouldn't blame the seller! Some friends even if the coins was bought or was a gift, replaced the coin but it was not after such a long time! Now... after 7 months.....

To tell you the truth... If I was the buyer... I wouldn't even remember what I ordered, the color or the metal, etc!! Iti s way too long! the buyer probably just remembered it! I can not imagine that he/she was still waiting!!! I personally have the longest time it took for a letter to come (the 60 days) as a line! if a letter passes this, I just wait for a week and then I know for sure that it is gone! I do not think mirracles can happen.. often and a letter will come after years...

 

Now you can always talk with them and explain, and maybe tell them that they will have a discount in their next buy or that you will cut the money they paid at that time from the new total... of even if they are ok in receiving a new coin as a gift! but... if they tell you... I bought 5 coins for example?? hmm... do you know if that is correct? Well... this has to do by trusting eachother... right? I am not blaming anyone ok?

 

It will be good to put now in your site that after 90 days you can give money back or anything...

Edited September 23, 2010 by GATOULIS

[+ice13-333]

The longest time i had to wait for coins from usa where 8 weeks - but i had told it to the seller (ca after 4 weeks) to inform him. I think 7 months is to long to react too...

 

I think you must not replace or refund anything after this long time, but you would make the seller very happy if you do a little step to meet at the middle. (Maybe a little shop-credit or a replacement of a part of the ordered numbers of coins)

[+kehunt64]

7 months to let a Seller know that you did not receive your merchandise is unacceptable.

 

Could you just imagine what a store would tell you if you walked in with a receipt that was dated 7 months prior and told them that "Item A" was not in your shopping bag when your got home? There is no way they would offer you a replacement or a credit of any kind.

 

I know you want to please the customer and you feel like you are between a rock and a hard place, but seriously, you have to draw the line in the sand some place and 7 months is way past that line.

 

I sit here and wonder why they waited 7 months to tell you that the order never arrived. It makes me wonder if they forgot about the order. If they in fact forgot about the order, I would think there is also the possibility that the order could have arrived and accidentally been misplaced.

 

As a buyer, I would never contact a seller about a missing order after 7 months had passed. I would consider it my fault for not keeping up with my order and giving the Seller notice in a reasonable amount of time. It would be a bitter pill to swallow, but it would not be the seller's fault that I had allowed so much time to lapse.

[+AtlantaGal]

One other thing I thought about overnight...

 

In my dealings, I've had all kinds of things happen including someone's child getting the mail and taking the coins for themselves. That child then told mommy "nooo, I never saw the package." Later said parent finds coins in child's desk.

 

I've also had people who had packages slide/fall behind where they put their mail, including behind microwave and behind a shelving unit.

 

I've also had purchasers who never updated their shipping address through all sections of PayPal, rendering the shipment as undeliverable and I assume, destroyed (since they've never been returned).

 

I usually ask a ton of questions before I issue a refund. And much of the time, the items were there all along.

 

I still stand behind what I originally said, I just thought I would mention these things since they really do happen, and happen often in my experience.

[+CUTT4]

In general I agree with everyone: 7 months is a long period of time to wait. However due to recent experiences I can understand the possibility of delay.

 

For some my understanding may require a bit of explaination so ...

 

In October of 2009 I began the journey from EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) to become a Paramedic. The very first thing we are told in the beginning of class is not to plan ANYTHING. No marriage, no divorce, no children, etc ... After the first couple of months I thought the instructor had overreacted because other than having to attend class there was no change in my activities or family life. However, I soon learned that it was I that had underestimated my class. By March I had no spare time. I was either working (24hr shifts at a time), in class, doing clinicals at the hospitals, or (on my only days off) doing the required ride time on an ambulance. There were times when I didn't make it home or see my family for several days. During the worst period of the class ... I was not home with the exception of 9 days out of the month and most of that was at night sleeping. I will forever be thankful that when our EMS stations were built someone had the forethought of putting in showers and washing machines. With everything going on and the constant running around days became mixed up and dates passed without notice. It has only been in the last month (as we are coming to the end of class) that I have been able to slow down and return to the geoworld. We still have 2 months left to go and then the dreaded testing portion, but the stress has been greatly reduced (at least until test week)!!!

 

Yes, 7 months is a long time. However there may have been a valid reason for not noticing that the package may not have arrived. They may have forgotten they ordered the package until recently running across the email communcations (been there and done that - although I usually remembered when the package arrived at my house )

 

Tsun, I have never had a problem with any of the coins I have ever ordered from you ... so I have no doubt that the package was mailed. Thanks to all the beautiful coins you have designed and sold, I believe you have the confidence needed to follow your gut instinct in regards to this issue.

[+Zelanzy]

I agree with the above on the time frame being extemely long...so long that you really have no obligation here.

 

But one item of note is that doing geocoin business internationally is very risky. Even if you had the customs form, that is not considered proof of mailing or proof of delivery or proof of anything. If an international buyer files a claim with paypal or their credit card they will always win. That is because it is not affordable to add tracking information on international packages from the US. Shipping with USPS you'd need to do registered which adds at least $12 per order. Shipping with FedEx or UPS is extremely expensive as well (much more than 12 per order).

 

I have added to my budget a 5% loss rate on all international orders and just refund any claims. If losses creep higher than 5% (1 order in 20) I would consider making the business decision to stop selling internationally or to raise my prices. In my eyes, international losses are simply a business expense related to offering my product to a risky market. If this happened within a few months, I'd just offer the refund and be done with it. Since this is 7 MONTHS ago, as stated above, I see no obligation here on your part.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Zelanzy

[+opalsns]

On every International "green" slip, there is a number and though it cannot be used as a tracking number. You can write it down, send it to the customer, take a picture and even bring it up to the postal worker, just to get it noticed. And always get a reciept.

It's a way to keep your mind at peace. If they don't get the package, it's passed your sending it out!!!

If this has been mentioned already, sorry for the repeat.

If they give you a hard time, tell them they're out of their " Wee Bitty"

mind and kick their a** verbally.

Opalsns

[+Droo]

.... tell them they're out of their " Wee Bitty"

mind and kick their a** verbally.

Opalsns

LOL.... I just can't see that as Tsun's style!!

[YemonYime]

Steph, I know you're a good soul, and that you're going to try to come up with something to make this person happy...but you're not a corporation with a customer service department. Folks need to accept the risk that packages can get lost in the mail...especially when crossing overseas.

 

Or coming from Montana on horseback.

[+opalsns]

.... tell them they're out of their " Wee Bitty"

mind and kick their a** verbally.

Opalsns

LOL.... I just can't see that as Tsun's style!!

 

You'd be surprised!!!!!!

[avroair]

For me 7 months is too long and kinda ridiculous. The post office states that people should expect their item within 6 weeks to most international destinations. I would also ask the person to contact their local customs office and post office to see if the package is missing there.

 

As you said, 45 days is a refund date. The first thing I would do is put a terms of use on your webpage (if you don't already have it). I am not sure there is really anything you can do for the person other than send them a token replacement coin (something different).

 

But like I said, 7 months is a long, long time...

[+BlueDeuce]

I now know that I will have to add another "clause" when it comes to ordering coins.

 

I don't purchase coins that often so never really considered this aspect of providing a service. (Even as an occasional buyer I should be concerned)

 

You say you are a vendor. Does that mean Vendor?

 

If so shouldn't the expectations of delivery be spelled out even prior to the sale? Purchase agreement: Please notify us of any issue within 30 days (or whatever)

 

Even if you are a casual seller, seven months is not reasonable. It's up to you if want to eat the costs to maintain this one buyer. If they are a repeat customer, then I think you should consider a good-will reimbursement.

Edited September 24, 2010 by BlueDeuce