Landowner Permission and Existing Caches

[+nimrodblack]

I have been working with a local Trust to design some caches on the protected land near my home. They have quite a considerable amount of it. Turns out....they didn't know some caches exist on their land. No one asked them to do it.

 

They aren't upset but they are curious. They asked me to work with them to make sure those Cache Owners are doing the right things. I am doing some volunteer work for the trust, mapping trails etc....so now I am building a relationship with this Land Owner. I need some advice from some old salty geocachers.

 

Now I am in a bit of a pickle. Do I contact the owners of the caches? Do I just go out and visit those caches and ensure its done respectfully. Do I show the landowner the caches?

 

What would you do?

[+Panther&Pine]

I have been working with a local Trust to design some caches on the protected land near my home. They have quite a considerable amount of it. Turns out....they didn't know some caches exist on their land. No one asked them to do it.

 

They aren't upset but they are curious. They asked me to work with them to make sure those Cache Owners are doing the right things. I am doing some volunteer work for the trust, mapping trails etc....so now I am building a relationship with this Land Owner. I need some advice from some old salty geocachers.

 

Now I am in a bit of a pickle. Do I contact the owners of the caches? Do I just go out and visit those caches and ensure its done respectfully. Do I show the landowner the caches?

 

What would you do?

Probably contact each of the owners with a respectful note, and let the land owner know about them (and your actions to fix the situation), you probably want to visit the caches in person and then take the landowner out there after assessing the situation.

[knowschad]

You could also work through a local reviewer, explaining the situation as you have here.

[+niraD]

First, I'd clarify what "doing the right things" means to the Trust. Many of the parks and open spaces around here have geocaching policies that clarify what is acceptable and what isn't, and as long as you meet their guidelines, you have permission without requesting it for your cache individually. (Interestingly, one of the common guidelines is that the cache be listed at geocaching.com because they trust the guidelines and review process here.)

 

Then I'd let the other cache owners know what the policy is, not in a "cache cop" sort of way, but as a fellow cache owner letting them know something that you've learned while working on your own cache.

 

Then, if I found a cache that didn't do the right things, I'd approach the cache owner first. It may eventually come to posting a Needs Archived log, but except for extremely severe problems, there should be several other steps before then.

[+Ampresearch]

I ran into this same thing. I wanted to palce a cache in two local parks. both of them were well aware of caches in the park already but were very quick to point out i was the first to ask permission. they then went on to thank me for doing so and asked that i spread the word that any new ones need to follow suit.

i went over each cache in the park with them and then told them i was going to contact each owner and let them know that there cache has been approved by (instert ranger name here) and to please seek permission prior to any further cache placements.

 

two of the owners thanks me for getting them the info,

one guy told me to mind my own business(big all about the numbers cacher in the area).

and the fourth did not reply.

 

i did not set out to cause trouble , i thought i was doing what i was supposed to do. just so happenes that in my case doing the right thing highlighted others that had done it wrong.

[Skippermark]

There's a land trust around here where the land manager wants to see every cache. Most everyone gets permission, but a few cachers don't know they need explicit permission. Every so often a local cacher from the area will hike around with the land manager to all the caches so that he can give them his seal of approval.

[+nimrodblack]

Thanks for these replies.

 

I don't want to police the areas or the existing cachers but that may be what happens as i volunteer for the trust. I think they will make the policy.....see nimrodblack to approve your caches. They have all but said that is what will happen.

 

I understand I may run into the occasional "mind your own business" I just wanted to get a bunch of responses here so i could take them all in and approach this with the right mindset. I mean ultimately the landowner can remove whatever they want from their land. I would rather the few existing caches just get the official nod from the landowner and everyone walk away happy knowing what they have done is ok.

 

Ampresearch what you describe is what has happened with some additions. I was trying to do the right thing and I have just stumbled into this mess. I will visit the existing caches and make sure they are ok. They I will tell the landowner about their locations.

 

Perhaps the best course of action if there happens to be a problem is just to have the trust contact the reviewer or if they ask me to contact the reviewer on their behalf. And I will let the reviewer contact the Cache owner.

[+nimrodblack]

There's a land trust around here where the land manager wants to see every cache. Most everyone gets permission, but a few cachers don't know they need explicit permission. Every so often a local cacher from the area will hike around with the land manager to all the caches so that he can give them his seal of approval.

 

The trust has asked me basically to be that person that checks the caches and approves new ones.

[+sbell111]

There's a land trust around here where the land manager wants to see every cache. Most everyone gets permission, but a few cachers don't know they need explicit permission. Every so often a local cacher from the area will hike around with the land manager to all the caches so that he can give them his seal of approval.

 

The trust has asked me basically to be that person that checks the caches and approves new ones.

In that case, I think that you've answered your own question.

 

I would go ahead and find the caches placed within the managed land. If any appear to be a problem, shoot a respectful email to the cache owners, explaining that you are responsible for ensuring that caches placed on property are done so appropriately and lay out the issues so the cache owners can adjust their caches as necessary.

[+jeffbouldin]

Many years ago a local cacher went to Metro Davidson County (Nashville, TN) to seek permission. They were wanting to ban caching but he was able to work with them to keep it open in their 25-35 (can't remember exact numbers). As a reward they gave him the honor of running their Geocaching program! If you want to publish a cache in one of their parks he reviews it and agrees or denies. The local reviewer will not publish it without the official park approval. One thing that helps is that you fill out an official park form so it is obvious that it is not just some cacher appointing himself as king.

 

So, if they ask you to run their program and you accept, make sure you get them to make it official. Have them give you a title, put it on their website, get you some business cards, or something that makes it legitimate. Also, contact the local reveiwers and inform them of the policies the land trust has put in place. Then they will require proof of your blessing before allowing it. Then when the "big time cacher" tells you to "mind your business" you can tell him you are and to bring his cache in line or it will be removed, Groundspeak notified, and he can pick up his container at the local park office, city office, police department, or where ever.

 

Edited to add:

 

Make sure that you have the park or land trust publish their policies. Either on the web site or at least a document that can be faxed or emailed to cachers. That again will show you are being fair and not just making yourself king.

Edited September 22, 2010 by jeffbouldin

[Skippermark]

I think it's great that you're willing to work with the land trust so that caching can continue and that they are willing to keep their land open to caching. It's a win-win for everyone. Cachers have a great place to cache, and the land trust gets more visitors to their land.

 

One thing that helps is that you fill out an official park form so it is obvious that it is not just some cacher appointing himself as king.

 

Jeff pretty much said everything I was thinking of after you said they sort of want you to be the "go to" person. You might want to check with the land trust to see if there's any specific thoughts they have, like no placing of caches where someone has to climb a tree to retrieve it and things like that. Then have those things listed on the form and their website.

 

Where in MA is the land trust? I'm in CT and frequently cache up that way. I especially enjoy visiting places where the land managers have opened their land to cachers.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Skippermark

[+BristolGuy&Gal]

Boy, does this whole discussion ring true for me. I recently found out, while applying for permission for a cache in a state-run wildlife management area, that the newly appointed land manager not only didn't like GC's but also wanted to remove GC's that hadn't been approved as much as 10 YEARS ago. I tried to get our local volunteer organization involved and instead have been thoroughly beaten up for making the issue public. Now I am going to be the scapegoat if any of these old caches are removed. I've been told that I have wrecked the "don't ask/don't tell" practice that's officially not endorsed but often used.

 

Trying to do things right can also get you crucified.

[+dbrierley]

Boy, does this whole discussion ring true for me. I recently found out, while applying for permission for a cache in a state-run wildlife management area, that the newly appointed land manager not only didn't like GC's but also wanted to remove GC's that hadn't been approved as much as 10 YEARS ago. I tried to get our local volunteer organization involved and instead have been thoroughly beaten up for making the issue public. Now I am going to be the scapegoat if any of these old caches are removed. I've been told that I have wrecked the "don't ask/don't tell" practice that's officially not endorsed but often used.

 

Trying to do things right can also get you crucified.

 

There's never anything wrong with asking permission. It seems the new manager would have been determined to remove caches regardless of the issue going public. The manager might never get around to it, there are probably other issues that need to be looked at first. Even if the caches are removed, appointed positions don't tend to last long, so a new manager open to geocaching might come along.

[+ChileHead]

Boy, does this whole discussion ring true for me. I recently found out, while applying for permission for a cache in a state-run wildlife management area, that the newly appointed land manager not only didn't like GC's but also wanted to remove GC's that hadn't been approved as much as 10 YEARS ago. I tried to get our local volunteer organization involved and instead have been thoroughly beaten up for making the issue public. Now I am going to be the scapegoat if any of these old caches are removed. I've been told that I have wrecked the "don't ask/don't tell" practice that's officially not endorsed but often used.

 

Trying to do things right can also get you crucified.

 

Of course 10 years ago there was no geocaching policy anywhere, as nobody knew what it was. So some of the older caches in the area were placed in areas that the first geocachers enjoyed. Since then, the wildlife management areas (WMA) in NY were closed off to geocaching by the NYS DEC, but they allowed it in most other DEC lands except for state parks which require permits. Form what I understand, getting a permit is usually pretty easy though I haven't done it myself as I'm not too close to any state park.

 

Last summer NYS adopted a policy of allowing geocaches in WMA lands (yeah!) with local land manager approval after years of work with a few geocachers in the state (I don't recall who they were, but we all thank them for spending the time & energy to get this policy opened up.) If the land manager approves, then caches can be placed. No permits required, so it's probably easier to get permission than in state parks. Since then there have been a number of caches placed in WMA lands throughout the area. I think some of the new Seaway Trail caches were in WMA lands, but I really didn't pay attention when I did them recently. I know a lot were in state parks.

 

From your posts on the local forums, it appears there is disagreement between the land manager and the local wildlife director on whether geocaches should be allowed or not in the area that you want to place a cache in. That's certainly unfortunate, but well within the rights of the local land manager. I don't know what you said to the land manager, but if your less than polite posts on the local forums were any indication I wouldn't be surprised if the land manager was not happy with you or geocachers in general.

 

So in this case the right thing to do was to contact the local manager and seek permission. If he or she said no, thank them for the time, and move on to someplace else. If you want to spend the time making a proposal to the land manager as to why geocaches should be allowed, then the local community would appreciate it. But if you hound the land manager, or try to get justification by pointing to 10 year old caches as a precedent, nobody is going to be happy.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[+Chokecherry]

Boy, does this whole discussion ring true for me. I recently found out, while applying for permission for a cache in a state-run wildlife management area, that the newly appointed land manager not only didn't like GC's but also wanted to remove GC's that hadn't been approved as much as 10 YEARS ago. I tried to get our local volunteer organization involved and instead have been thoroughly beaten up for making the issue public. Now I am going to be the scapegoat if any of these old caches are removed. I've been told that I have wrecked the "don't ask/don't tell" practice that's officially not endorsed but often used.

 

Trying to do things right can also get you crucified.

 

I can empathize to a degree (haven't had as many issues as you). When seeking permission to place caches somewhere I got some support from the permission granters. However, they wanted to know if there were any geocaches located on the property that was owned by them and where they were. Well there were a few which did not have any permission what so ever. I felt bad at that point because now I'm trying to explain to these people that geocachers are responsible people only to have that jump out as an example of our "responsibility." And then I had the permission granter for awhile wanting those caches gone since they didn't bother to get permission. Since then then the granter has backed off of that stance.

 

But I could easily see how a community of people could ascribe to some "don't ask, don't tell" policy where they don't actually get permission so no one actually knows they're out there and then someone like me comes along who firmly believes in getting permission to do the right thing and makes a mess of that whole scenario with other geocachers.

[+BristolGuy&Gal]

Thanks for jumping in on this Chilehead but, once again, the facts are not correct. I didn't have a conflict with the Land Manager. In fact we got along quite well. He asked me to get him in touch with someone in Geocaching that he could talk to so that he could get his opinion listened to: He does NOT want GC's in the wildlife management areas under his control.

 

Knowing the potential for the loss of many existing, as well as future, GC's I put out a call for help. After a bunch of "Not my job", "I'm too busy", "I'm just a volunteer", "Don't shake the boat" and "Don't ask, don't tell" responses yes, I got upset.

 

The rest is history. The next thing you will see is a whole lot of diatribes against me posted here by GeoRoc members. So be it. It's not life or death. Hey, being told that I can no longer apply for local review for any new GC's isn't going to break my heart.

 

Careful folks. Don't rock the boat.

[+ChileHead]

Thanks for jumping in on this Chilehead but, once again, the facts are not correct. I didn't have a conflict with the Land Manager. In fact we got along quite well. He asked me to get him in touch with someone in Geocaching that he could talk to so that he could get his opinion listened to: He does NOT want GC's in the wildlife management areas under his control.

 

The conflict seems to be between him and his office mate from what you've said. His office mate has given permission for at least a few geocachers, so those two should work out what the policy in region 8 is. It sounds inconsistent right now.

[+BristolGuy&Gal]

Thanks for jumping in on this Chilehead but, once again, the facts are not correct. I didn't have a conflict with the Land Manager. In fact we got along quite well. He asked me to get him in touch with someone in Geocaching that he could talk to so that he could get his opinion listened to: He does NOT want GC's in the wildlife management areas under his control.

 

The conflict seems to be between him and his office mate from what you've said. His office mate has given permission for at least a few geocachers, so those two should work out what the policy in region 8 is. It sounds inconsistent right now.

 

Yup, that's correct. The office mate happens to be the Regional Wildlife Manager, his boss, and sits in the same office with him. I suggested that he get together with his boss to work things out, which he said he was going to do as soon as he got off the phone. He STILL, however, asked for an "official" contact to speak with at Geocache.com and you know the story from there.

[GOF and Bacall]

Thanks for jumping in on this Chilehead but, once again, the facts are not correct. I didn't have a conflict with the Land Manager. In fact we got along quite well. He asked me to get him in touch with someone in Geocaching that he could talk to so that he could get his opinion listened to: He does NOT want GC's in the wildlife management areas under his control.

 

The conflict seems to be between him and his office mate from what you've said. His office mate has given permission for at least a few geocachers, so those two should work out what the policy in region 8 is. It sounds inconsistent right now.

 

Yup, that's correct. The office mate happens to be the Regional Wildlife Manager, his boss, and sits in the same office with him. I suggested that he get together with his boss to work things out, which he said he was going to do as soon as he got off the phone. He STILL, however, asked for an "official" contact to speak with at Geocache.com and you know the story from there.

 

I can see what at least part of the problem is. That would be like someone asking for an official contact at the newspaper in which you advertised you garage sale.

[+ChileHead]

Yup, that's correct. The office mate happens to be the Regional Wildlife Manager, his boss, and sits in the same office with him. I suggested that he get together with his boss to work things out, which he said he was going to do as soon as he got off the phone. He STILL, however, asked for an "official" contact to speak with at Geocache.com and you know the story from there.

 

I had a hard time following the conversation. You kept deleting your posts, and in a few cases changing them during the middle of the conversation. Your initial request was get somebody involved to drive a change in the local geocaching policy for that region. Nobody really seemed interested in getting involved in the government politics, especially seeing that two guys sharing an office at the DEC don't agree. If the land manager has a question on any of the published caches or what policy is being currently followed, then the reviewer is the right person. But that doesn't seem to be what you tried to communicate.

[+nimrodblack]

Given what has been written down here. I suggested the Trust make a free account on geocaching.com

 

If they discover something that they don't like. They will submit the request to have it removed. As of right now they are find with geocaching. They are going to add me to the website and post an official geocaching policy. I believe this will keep me out of trouble on both sides....landowner and GCers. As Geocaching becomes more understood you best bet people will be checking on their property regularly. Its not rocket science.

 

As side note....

 

I have no intention of helping a GCer break the landowner's rights.....nor break the rules of geocaching because they were too lazy to get permission. Clearly I managed to do it. I am no superman.

[+BristolGuy&Gal]

Yup, that's correct. The office mate happens to be the Regional Wildlife Manager, his boss, and sits in the same office with him. I suggested that he get together with his boss to work things out, which he said he was going to do as soon as he got off the phone. He STILL, however, asked for an "official" contact to speak with at Geocache.com and you know the story from there.

 

I had a hard time following the conversation. You kept deleting your posts, and in a few cases changing them during the middle of the conversation. Your initial request was get somebody involved to drive a change in the local geocaching policy for that region. Nobody really seemed interested in getting involved in the government politics, especially seeing that two guys sharing an office at the DEC don't agree. If the land manager has a question on any of the published caches or what policy is being currently followed, then the reviewer is the right person. But that doesn't seem to be what you tried to communicate.

 

We are getting in the way of Nimradblack's thread. If you want to keep this going, feel free to contact me directly through my listing on Geocaching.co. Thanks!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

...I understand I may run into the occasional "mind your own business" ...

That's what the Needs Archived note is for. The Reviewer will mind their business!