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Logging caches when you were with the person hiding it


alldatndensum
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There's no SOP. I have some finds on caches where I was present for the hide, but stopped doing that some years back.

 

I don't care about what other people are doing.

 

My mild preference for others is that they don't sign the log - this so the person who is excited about maybe finding a blank log and a FTF can find that blank log. I don't feel strongly about this. As the cache owner apparently knows you're going to be logging a find, you can do that without signing the log.

 

I don't care if you sign and log the find as soon as the cache is published, sign and log after someone else logs a find so they can "have" FTF (though this seems silly to me, either claim the find or don't, playing some kind of "I found it, but I'm not claiming FTF even though I am claiming I found it before you did..." Me, I can't process this).

 

Or don't sign it and don't log it.

 

Or return later and sing it and log it.

 

There are some caches south of me that I'd probably have to hunt like any other cacher, from coords and the hint, as it's been several years since they were hidden and I was there. If I get out that way, I may hunt 'em and log 'em. Or not.

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Interesting question. My initial feeling is no, it's not a legitimate find, as you were there when it was placed so it required no effort or research on your part. But then again, I've been in a situation where a cacher didnt know a cache was near by, met a group of cachers on the hunt, tagged along, and when the cache was retrieved (something they themselves couldnt physically do on their own) they were handed the log and they signed it as a find. 6 of one, half a dozen of thhe other. Swings and roundabouts. Hey ho, ultimately you play the game for yourself your way so it's up to you. But I would say in the situation you are describing, no, it would not be a legitimate find. But if you think it is, sign the log, get the smilie, be happy and move on :huh: Ultimately, it's how you play the game that matters to you. What anyone else thinks is just that, what they think!

Edited by 4 and The Dog
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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

You have nearly 400 finds. How many of those required you to come to the Forum to ask if it was OK to log them? If you think you have to ask, you already know the answer. But that doesn't stop some from doing it.

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There's no rule for or against it. If the person who's hiding it is cool with you logging it, then go for it. I would advise not claiming the 'first to find' tho, that's where I would (personally) draw the line.

 

But the only persons opinion that matters on this subject is the cache owner, and you.

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The find count is not a score. So there is no "cheating" involved if you log a cache where you were there when someone else hid it. In fact there is no "cheating" involved if you were to log your own cache. There are however certain "norms" accepted by geocachers. These norms vary from place to place, as well as between groups of geocachers. Logging your own cache, except under a few very unusual conditions is generally "bad-form". There is more variation in whether or not to log a cache where you were with the hider. In some areas this is called a "beta find". Often, the cachers will refrain from logging online until after the first non-beta find is logged. In any case, they will say in the online log that it is a beta find. In other areas people will go back to the cache after it is found by someone else, and sign the log an claim the find. Still others will not log these caches at all since "you know where it is hidden, so how can you find it." You will need to find out what is acceptable in your circle of friends, and especially with the cache hider, and then decide if you are comfortable with that practice or if you want do something else. I generally go along with the group I am with. There is no point in pretending to be holier-than-thou over a little game where the find count isn't a score.

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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

 

The standard procedure would be to do what feels right to you. I wouldn't log a cache that I had a part in hiding, or if I accompanied the owner. I know many others who feel the same way. There are also many others who would not hesitate to log finds on those caches. Personal preference, there is no right or wrong.

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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

 

Cheating? No. Uber cheesy to the nth degree? Yes. In my opinion, that is. :huh: Lots of people do this however, and I couldn't care less. If you do find yourself in the uber cheesy to the nth degree camp like myself, you could always put it on your ignore list, so it wouldn't show up as unfound in searches.

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Groundspeak doesn't let us have joint-ownership on caches, so some people log finds on caches they jointly own or help to hide, in order to have them show up in their stats. It's a personal choice that has absolutely no effect on anybody else. It's not lame, cheesy, unethical, cheating, or anything else. It's just a matter of choice, and there's no reason to judge or be upset about someone else's choice in this matter.

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As someone else said, I think this is one of those things that probably has regional norms.

 

Around here, people that were present when someone else hides a cache will generally sign the log halfway down the page or on the second page so as not to spoil the fun of the FTF. Online logging generally occurs after the 3rd person has made a find (so as not to upset those that track FTF, STF, TTF stats).

 

The main reason we log these as finds is to keep an "unfindable" cache from showing up on maps and in pocket queries. I think that the ignore list could probably be used to hide these but that's not the way the community handles things around here. If a cache owner ever did object then we wouldn't log.

 

I dont see this situation being much different to what happens when caching in a group. Only one person actually makes the find but everyone in the group will log it as a find. I've never met anyone that would say that it's wrong to log a find in that situation. (Though there are one or two people on these forums that wouldn't log a find in a group caching situation unless they actually made the find.)

Edited by sdarken
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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

You have nearly 400 finds. How many of those required you to come to the Forum to ask if it was OK to log them? If you think you have to ask, you already know the answer. But that doesn't stop some from doing it.

 

 

Thanks for the snarkiness. I see why more and more people are using the discussions on Facebook instead of coming in here.

 

To be honest, EVERY find I have thus far has been me or a buddy putting our hands on the box, micro, attending an event, or getting the info on old virtuals. I haven't used the forums except to read about what I need to know because I have seen a lot of hateful old geezers treat newer cachers like dog crap. I asked a legitimate question of the caching community, and you act like I've committed some sort of geo-sin by ASKING BEFORE I do something? How else was I to know the opinions of fellow cachers?

 

As for the rest of you in the thread, thank you for your openness and willingness to share your thoughts. From what I gather, it seems to be up to the individual and the cache owners. While considered bad form by some, it's okay to others. That answers my questions, and I am satisfied with the answers.

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I've done this a couple times in the past, but the procedure was a little different. I sat a ways away while a friend hides the cache, usually over a ridge or behind a group of trees, then comes back and gives me the coords he got. I then go after the cache and find it, mainly to verify the coordinates he got. I signed the log but noted "Beta test not FTF" on it as well. These were all done in high terrain level, remote caches where its a good idea to have the coordinates double checked to make sure you dont have to come back there to adjust, or people dont hike all the way out there to only dnf due to bad coords. Maybe the thing thats different is I didn't see the actual hiding of the cache?

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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

You have nearly 400 finds. How many of those required you to come to the Forum to ask if it was OK to log them? If you think you have to ask, you already know the answer. But that doesn't stop some from doing it.

 

 

Thanks for the snarkiness. I see why more and more people are using the discussions on Facebook instead of coming in here.

 

To be honest, EVERY find I have thus far has been me or a buddy putting our hands on the box, micro, attending an event, or getting the info on old virtuals. I haven't used the forums except to read about what I need to know because I have seen a lot of hateful old geezers treat newer cachers like dog crap. I asked a legitimate question of the caching community, and you act like I've committed some sort of geo-sin by ASKING BEFORE I do something? How else was I to know the opinions of fellow cachers?

 

As for the rest of you in the thread, thank you for your openness and willingness to share your thoughts. From what I gather, it seems to be up to the individual and the cache owners. While considered bad form by some, it's okay to others. That answers my questions, and I am satisfied with the answers.

 

Yup. Up to you and the cache owner. And I'd have to say I'm in the minority for considering it "cheesy", lots of people do it. But gathering from your response, you've probably left and won't see this anyways. :yikes:

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maybe you could wait untill there has been some significant cache migration, then go back and find it. That way, you are still finding it. You likely will have to wait for a month or so.

 

There is a cache across from my house. It is in a group of 3 small spurce trees. Everytime I have found it (only posted found log once; subsiquent logs were to place TB&GC) it is in a different tree.

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I've done this a couple times in the past, but the procedure was a little different. I sat a ways away while a friend hides the cache, usually over a ridge or behind a group of trees, then comes back and gives me the coords he got. I then go after the cache and find it, mainly to verify the coordinates he got. I signed the log but noted "Beta test not FTF" on it as well. These were all done in high terrain level, remote caches where its a good idea to have the coordinates double checked to make sure you dont have to come back there to adjust, or people dont hike all the way out there to only dnf due to bad coords. Maybe the thing thats different is I didn't see the actual hiding of the cache?

I don't buy that whole Bata Tester thing. In this case, you were the First To Find the cache. The GC.com listing service and published time is irrelevent.

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I've done this a couple times in the past, but the procedure was a little different. I sat a ways away while a friend hides the cache, usually over a ridge or behind a group of trees, then comes back and gives me the coords he got. I then go after the cache and find it, mainly to verify the coordinates he got. I signed the log but noted "Beta test not FTF" on it as well. These were all done in high terrain level, remote caches where its a good idea to have the coordinates double checked to make sure you dont have to come back there to adjust, or people dont hike all the way out there to only dnf due to bad coords. Maybe the thing thats different is I didn't see the actual hiding of the cache?

I don't buy that whole Bata Tester thing. In this case, you were the First To Find the cache. The GC.com listing service and published time is irrelevent.

 

The concern we had with that was giving people the idea that one of us was giving the other special treatment as far as the FTF goes. In other words going out and hiding a cache while your buddy hides around the corner, then give him the coords and he claims the FTF. Not really fair to other cachers. Besides neither of us are really ftf hounds, so its more enjoyable for us to read the logs of the other cachers scrambling to get there first.

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I've done this a couple times in the past, but the procedure was a little different. I sat a ways away while a friend hides the cache, usually over a ridge or behind a group of trees, then comes back and gives me the coords he got. I then go after the cache and find it, mainly to verify the coordinates he got. I signed the log but noted "Beta test not FTF" on it as well. These were all done in high terrain level, remote caches where its a good idea to have the coordinates double checked to make sure you dont have to come back there to adjust, or people dont hike all the way out there to only dnf due to bad coords. Maybe the thing thats different is I didn't see the actual hiding of the cache?

I don't buy that whole Bata Tester thing. In this case, you were the First To Find the cache. The GC.com listing service and published time is irrelevent.

 

The concern we had with that was giving people the idea that one of us was giving the other special treatment as far as the FTF goes. In other words going out and hiding a cache while your buddy hides around the corner, then give him the coords and he claims the FTF. Not really fair to other cachers. Besides neither of us are really ftf hounds, so its more enjoyable for us to read the logs of the other cachers scrambling to get there first.

 

It really doesn't change the facts. You found it first. You are FTF. Sign your name on the third page, wait a week to log it, but the next person to find the cache after you is second to find.

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I talked it over with my brother since it is his caches that I am wondering about. He is okay with it, so we logged each others' caches the day we hid some together. Ok, it might be cheesy, but we're okay with it. It isn't like we'll be getting several hundred smileys off of this.

 

But, I will make it a point in the future to try to make myself scarce when he is hiding so that I do not know the final resting place of the cache so I can hunt it the proper way. Right now, though, he has no GPS and we hunt together quite frequently. We've also done some hides together.

 

I have another hunting partner that I logged his cache. I was there when he hid it, but stayed well away while he hid and recorded the coords. I did not know the actual spot--just where we parked. When the cache went live, I went for the FTF. But, I did have to find that one.

 

Again, thanks for all the honesty. Now I am going to be reading through some threads about various GSP units I am looking at.

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how can you find something when you know where it is?

I always find this argument silly. How many caches have you "found" that you knew where it was before hand? Either because someone told you, or the hint was too specific, or you saw a spoiler picture, or another cacher made the find and handed it to you, etc.

 

Why would the difficulty in finding the cache have anything to do with logging a found? A 5 star difficulty cache gives you a smiley, just as a 1 star difficulty cache does. What if the cache was sitting there right out in the open? You'd know where it is from hundreds of feet/meters away. Does that mean that you didn't really "find" it because you didn't have to search?

 

The found it log is a clerical tool. A found it just means that I've been there, it's not my cache and my name is in the log book. It tells the web site to not put it on my list of unfound caches without completely hiding the cache from me.

 

Now I could be completely wrong. Geocaching could be a competitive sport where the found count is a score and the person with the biggest score wins. If that's the case, disregard everything I just wrote. :laughing:

Edited by Avernar
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The concern we had with that was giving people the idea that one of us was giving the other special treatment as far as the FTF goes. In other words going out and hiding a cache while your buddy hides around the corner, then give him the coords and he claims the FTF. Not really fair to other cachers. Besides neither of us are really ftf hounds, so its more enjoyable for us to read the logs of the other cachers scrambling to get there first.

 

It really doesn't change the facts. You found it first. You are FTF. Sign your name on the third page, wait a week to log it, but the next person to find the cache after you is second to find.

Cool! An official First To Find rule! We now have a definition of what FTF means. When's it going to be added to the Groundspeak Guidelines? Seems we're well under way to get the FTF sub-game officially recongnized! :laughing:

 

But seriously, who said you have to treat the phrase "First To Find" literally?

 

Let's say you bought some limited edition car and got serial number 1. You go out and say you're the first to drive this new car. Then someone comes by and says no you're not, it's the quallity tester at the factory was first to drive that new edition. You'd just ignore them and go off and enjoy your car and exchange stories with the other owners of that edition.

Edited by Avernar
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It's between the owner and the finder. It doesn't affect anybody else.

 

This is the best quote I have heard so far.... and because you are both.. it would be up to you.

 

As you can see most say no, but I know people who list all their caches under a sock account, kids, or wife, so they can log them all and people will not growl at them. Too much drama. If you log your own, you could get an email from someone complaining, just be ready for it.

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If you are with someone when they place a new cache, is it acceptable or considered cheating to log that cache as a find? It is not my own cache, but I have been there and know what/where it is. Can I claim it as a smiley? What is the standard procedure on this?

 

Bad form... Yup It certainly is.

 

I personally consider it OK to log a find if you were with the person when the cache was placed BUT you revisit the cache at a later date. Some people (Including myself) enjoy geocaching for the love of the hunt and do caches which lead you to amazing places... Not just a pointless micro on the back of a speed sign with no nice views or no need to be there. Simples! :laughing:

 

But it is entirely up to you and the owner... people play the game in unique ways.

Edited by jackflet44
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It's between the owner and the finder. It doesn't affect anybody else.

 

This is the best quote I have heard so far.... and because you are both.. it would be up to you.

 

As you can see most say no, but I know people who list all their caches under a sock account, kids, or wife, so they can log them all and people will not growl at them. Too much drama. If you log your own, you could get an email from someone complaining, just be ready for it.

Last summer my 9 year old son had my wife drive him around to places because he wanted to hide some caches. He hid them all on his own, and my wife only helped him with the web page part of the hide.

 

They didn't tell me, and when they got published, I was surprised to see notifications coming through for caches hidden by "Skippermatt." It was so cool I thought, but I was nervous to find and log them thinking people might think I simply hid them for him, but friends said to find them and log them. I wasn't with him, I didn't know anything about them, and I truly found them on my own. They were kind of tough hides (he likes the challenging ones), and he actually enjoyed watching me struggle to find them.

Edited by Skippermark
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I personally consider it OK to log a find if you were with the person when the cache was placed BUT you revisit the cache at a later date.

 

What's the reasoning behind saying it's ok to log as log as you revisit at another time? I don't really get that approach though other people in this thread have said the same thing. In most cases nothing is going to change between your first and second visit. Does making the effort to visit a second time somehow negate the fact that you already know where the cache is hidden?

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I personally consider it OK to log a find if you were with the person when the cache was placed BUT you revisit the cache at a later date.

 

What's the reasoning behind saying it's ok to log as log as you revisit at another time? I don't really get that approach though other people in this thread have said the same thing. In most cases nothing is going to change between your first and second visit. Does making the effort to visit a second time somehow negate the fact that you already know where the cache is hidden?

 

To me it comes down to the FTF. Claiming FTF is a prize, and its a prize in the race to get to the cache and find it before anyone else. In the scenario I posted earlier I dont log the cache as FTF because I think its unfair to claim it on a cache when you find it before its been published. To me its like saying you won a marathon even though you got a 13 mile headstart from everyone.

 

I think revisiting it is the same concept, basically logging it after its been published, so as not to steal the FTF from others.

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Last summer my 9 year old son had my wife drive him around to places because he wanted to hide some caches. He hid them all on his own, and my wife only helped him with the web page part of the hide.

 

They didn't tell me, and when they got published, I was surprised to see notifications coming through for caches hidden by "Skippermatt." It was so cool I thought, but I was nervous to find and log them thinking people might think I simply hid them for him, but friends said to find them and log them. I wasn't with him, I didn't know anything about them, and I truly found them on my own. They were kind of tough hides (he likes the challenging ones), and he actually enjoyed watching me struggle to find them.

 

That's really cool.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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It's between the owner and the finder. It doesn't affect anybody else.

agreed

 

Well yeah, but as a peer I can still say that I don't consider it a worthy practice.

 

You can certainly ignore my opinion but when you deal with me as a peer in the local caching community I am going to give my opinion. Like it or not.

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It's between the owner and the finder. It doesn't affect anybody else.
agreed
Well yeah, but as a peer I can still say that I don't consider it a worthy practice.

 

You can certainly ignore my opinion but when you deal with me as a peer in the local caching community I am going to give my opinion. Like it or not.

... and I am going to tell you that it's between the owner and the finder. Then I am going to wonder why anyone else would care about something so trivial and talk about them behind their backs.
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