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Proposed Tag Change - Plastic?


Jeremy

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Introducing the all new "Geocaching Express".

 

Note at bottom of order form: Shipping: Your order has been dropped into a local cache. Your order can be traced with travelbug #xxxxxx. If by chance your order disappears, we are not responsible. Please check a local TB hotel nearest to the last known cache. Your order should arrive within: we can not verify that information.

 

Another Note: Sorry, we tried to deliver your order but the order was too large to fit in the cache container.

 

icon_biggrin.gif

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

I thought the issue with TB cost had more to do with the shipping and "handling" than the actual expense of the bug.


That is certainly an issue, but the new bugs don't really address that. The base shipping cost through shop.Groundspeak.com is based on the base shipping charge for UPS and we have no control over that. So even though the new bugs will be lighter and cheaper, it won't address the shipping issue. The shipping cost is a seperate issue and we're trying to address that as well.

 

frog.gif Elias

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quote:
Originally posted by Elias:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

I thought the issue with TB cost had more to do with the shipping and "handling" than the actual expense of the bug.


That is certainly an issue, but the new bugs don't really address that. The base shipping cost through http://shop.Groundspeak.com is based on the base shipping charge for UPS and we have no control over that. So even though the new bugs will be lighter and cheaper, it won't address the shipping issue. The shipping cost is a seperate issue and we're trying to address that as well.

 

frog.gif Elias


 

OK then, for the third time now, what is the status on getting just the number?

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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quote:
Originally posted by Elias:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

OK then, for the third time now, what is the status on getting just the number?


For the http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=6016058331&m=39760976&r=91060086#91060086, they're in the works. icon_smile.gif

 

frog.gif Elias


 

Is that what that means? I read it but never made the connection. Thanks for the info! icon_cool.gif

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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I like the metal tags for durability. Here in Florida we've lost several caches to fires, controled burns and natural ones. One of my bugs melted down pretty good, but the metal tag was still readable so it was able to be put back in circulation.

As far as the connectors...I use different types, zip ties, key rings etc., depending on what I'm attaching the tag to. I don't care for the chains that come with the TBugs.

I like the instruction tag idea. I would like to have a "copy" tag as well, but without the word "copy" on it, so it could use be used to re-issue a bug that goes missing or is destroyed.

How about this....one original metal tag, and two plastic tags, a "copy" and an "intructions." Keep the chain and leave the connectors to us. We can figure it out. icon_smile.gif

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I think the plastic tag is OK - what you should work on is the message. The current message is not very intelligible to a newbie and results in lost bugs. The instruction tag is a good idea, or maybe just print on the back of the tag. Something like "Travel bug - first log your bug find on www.Groundspeak.com, then place me in another cache as soon as possible."

 

Is there a way to make the bug find page on the same page as the cache so you can do it in one swoop as when you drop a bug off in a cache? I.e, log page would have a section "I found a bug here [enter number]"

 

Perhaps you could add a space or additional tag that says "Help me find my way to: _______" so you don't accidentally move the bug 100 miles the wrong way before getting to the computer to discover its goal. In any case, I recommend that the bug starter do this. The only problem is you can't change the goal then unless you enlist the help of someone that has found the bug.

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If plastic tags are introduced and/or simple numbers issued to be attached to any form of custom tag, then I would still opt for the metal tag.

 

As stated many times previously, the metal tag is "official" looking and much harder to counterfeit.

 

The plastic tags will weather, melt, get deeted, break in the cold, etc.

 

While the customize option seems cool at first, it will cheapen the game and will confuse cachers into thinking they are simply finding a numbered signature item.

 

I vote not changing the actual tags themselves but rather smarten up the tracking process with picking up, logging, and dropping off the TB.

 

Kirk out.

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I just found my first TB two days ago. I like the metal TB's, but I must agree that they don't immediately look like a hitch-hiker. The instructions do not give enough detail. I feel that if I had not researched TBs and specifically searched this particular TB out I'm not sure that I would have realized that I needed to place it in another cache.

 

*My suggestion on instructions: Make them explicitly clear that this is a hitch-hiker to be placed in another cache because it has a goal.

 

*On alternate tags: I've come into this discussion late, so it seems that purchasing a number is a given. I would stay with the metal tag and the purchase a number method then. Metal tags, plastic tags, and numbers are just too much. I think adding numbers are too much, but that has been discussed.

 

I truly think that the biggest problem with lost TBs is the included instructions (with exception of those who actively steal TBs) because they are vague. I recently graduated from law school (but not a practicing lawyer) and two of the things that I was taught was: 1) write to cover every scenario (in legal situations) and 2) to write/orally describe in the completly/most layman terms that I could come up with. On number 2, we were told "if someone with an 85 IQ cannot understand what you are telling them you are not doing your job!" The instructions need to follow rule #2. If they are not blindly apparent, TBs will be lost.

 

I like the metal TBs because they could look official, but their 'officialness' requires looking professional (i.e. somewhate expensive) and they clearly describe their purpose. The current TB meets about 75% of the first part and about 13% of the second part. The TB could look a little more official, but the instructions really suck. Get better instructions and make it look for official and they will be excellent. I think plastic TBs will look less official than the current metal TBs and that will hurt their ultimate purpose. (I think selling numbers defeats both purposes, but I understand economics and the need to keep this site viable, so I would accept it even if I didn't like it. Especially for the continued viability of this site.)

 

-stroh

 

-Technology...I have no idea what I would do without my GPSr, my TiVo, or my Computer with a DSL connection. I guess I would spend more time with my wife! icon_smile.gif

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Another thought, you could always use economics, if you have a clear goal over time. If the plastic bug and/or selling number works out, they will work out because people want them and they don't immediately dissapear. If they dissapear, noone will buy them.

 

-stroh

 

-Technology...I have no idea what I would do without my GPSr, my TiVo, or my Computer with a DSL connection. I guess I would spend more time with my wife! icon_smile.gif

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I think that having an option would be great. My reason is as follows:

-for your short-range bugs, use plastic, and vice versa.

 

I put a log in a film canister and placed in a cache in CA with instructions to get in home to me in Reston, VA. Just an experiment. icon_smile.gif

 

Thanks,

 

Spencer

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I like the metal bugs.

 

As for the plastic idea, since so many people attach a goal card to the bug anyway, why not have the plastic instruction card come with the metal tag. Then the bug is both metal and plastic. Tracking number metal. Instructions (replaceable) plastic.

 

My kids (13, 10 and 7--the 1 year old can't have the chain for a few years) love the chain because they can wear their "copy" and it gives them more ownership of their bug. I think it also cements the concept that this thing they can't see is out there somewhere.

 

I think the cost of the bug is more than reasonable. And if the cost went up to cover the addition of the plastic instructions I think it would still be reasonable.

 

Doug

 

ps. the plastic tag could be designed like the photo key flobs so a printed "goal" could be inserted into it. Instructions pre-printed on one side; printable goal snapped into the other side.

 

Geocaching Families of East TN

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i agree i like the metal tag. i found my first tb yeasterday dropped it off today. it had a laminated card with it telling it's story. i think the metal tag with the tracking number needs to stay a plastic one with it's info is a good idea that the owner can fill out.

 

"If you mess with aporcupine you might just get the quills. LOL I just had to say that"

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quote:
Originally posted by McCaughan Family:

 

ps. the plastic tag could be designed like the photo key flobs so a printed "goal" could be inserted into it. Instructions pre-printed on one side; printable goal snapped into the other side.

 


 

That's a great idea! I think having the general instructions on one side and then a place where you could insert the TB instructions/goal on the other is an absolutely fantastic idea.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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I like the idea of an instruction tag telling people " how to log it in ". I prefer one design only. What about using a bright color as an identifier. Whether they are plastic and colored

or the present metal - anodize. I assume the cost

would go up slightly. But, they would be reconized

easiely. SF1 icon_smile.gif

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Honestly, I don't like the thought of lowering cost of the TBs... Part of their allure is that finding bugs isn't easy. I like the challenge of hunting for them and maybe finding one. Think about it. A teddy bear isn't special because everyone has had at least three and you can find them anywhere. If you decrease the cost of the bugs, they'll be like Teddy bears - everyone will have them and it won't be a big deal anymore.

 

And don't make them plastic. Please don't make them plastic!

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I've just read this entire string. It's exhausting. I like the classic metal tags. They are functional, sturdy, and really not that expensive when you think about it. I agree that cheap equals prolific which equals boring and tedious instead of rare and fun.

 

*Caution below *sarcasm warning-profound eye-rolling and head-shaking imminent*

 

However, if I could, I would like it if the TB tags could be metal on one side fused to plastic on the other. I'd like to be able to specify brass, brushed nickel, or chrome finish on the metal side, and any color plastic engraved with my avatars image superimposed with the unique TB serial number using holography (like Microsoft) for absolute authenticity verification.

The TB tag would need to come with a clear weatherproof snap-on compartment that would attach to the plastic side of the bug containing an animatronic "Bug" character that would activate itself by detecting the temperature variance between the ambient surroundings and my hand. "Bug" might sing a unique song that Jeremy could pre-program for me based on the complex and amazing history surrounding my TB's story. Or, some other bit of theatre might be appropriate-but that should be up to the individual cacher's needs.

 

*Caution below *bitterness/eyerubbing tired & crankiness warning**

 

Mostly, I just enjoy the simplicity of the geocaching _game_. There are a whole host of poor teenagers and students and poverty stricken adults that can scrap together a few dollars a day for cigarettes or booze or lottery tickets that can serve as great examples of how if you want/need something enough, you can find a way to afford the difference between $5.00 (metal) and, say, $2.50 (plastic) for a TB tag. I can't imagine a situation where literally a couple of dollars is going to make or break someone's choice to do something they really like to do.

 

I live in the area that hosted the PiGMan'S wrath and I know that there are a _few_ twisted folks out there who just seem to need to mess with a good thing. Those people are going to find a way to mess with you no matter what you do to protect your bugs. Making it harder for them will only encourage them, it won't lessen the impact. Make the instructions better to enhance the game and reduce the number of lost tags because of ignorance.

 

Plastic is cheap because it isn't as good as metal at being durable and official looking. The caches are full of cheap plastic trinkets. Those metal tags stick out. And you know right away if you have a TB in your hand.

 

Let people make a small investment in the game for this completely optional enhancement. There is so much you can do here for free. Are any of us such cheapskates that we really can't part with $20.00 for 4 bugs? Are these the same people who don't pay for NPR yet listen every morning?

 

Hope I didn't ruffle anybody _too_ much. If you read this entire string from top to bottom, you might get tiffed off, too.

 

icon_biggrin.gif Thanks, I feel great now...

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Call me old fashion...I think the metal tags would have more ascetic integrity.

 

Also, having just 1 style available would standardize them, making them easier to spot.

 

And, the current price is not unreasonable.

 

============="If it feels good...do it"==============

 

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")

 

.

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I am in TOTAL agreement with MtnLion. We should leave the tags the way they are and at the current price. If you can afford a PC, Internet connection, GPS, and all the gas for driving from cache to cache then an occasional $20 for 4 TB is no big deal.

 

That being said. I would like to see a way to track my signature item from my geocaching.com profile page. We are getting glow in the dark coins with a serial number in the next month or so. Maybe this could be a premium member perk. That way it would encourage more people to become paying members. It's only $30 per year.

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Unfortunately once I read that

quote:
They will be based on key fob designs you get at PetCo and other places. Size is configurable. We propose to create 3 tags connected so you can snap them apart.
I will have to say no. It would be different if the tags were hard plastic like the kinds you see as zipper pulls or state license plate key chains, the ones that are engraved. I would be for something like that.
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Originally posted by The Gowen Family:

I am in TOTAL agreement with MtnLion. We should leave the tags the way they are and at the current price. If you can afford a PC, Internet connection, GPS, and all the gas for driving from cache to cache then an occasional $20 for 4 TB is no big deal.

 

....sorry folks, but $20 is a big deal. I bought 4...one is stuck, one not sent yet, two went missing 2 days after being put in the first cache. I won't be buying anymore $6 travel bugs.

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quote:
Originally posted by are.we.there.yet?:
Originally posted by The Gowen Family:

I am in TOTAL agreement with MtnLion. We should leave the tags the way they are and at the current price. If you can afford a PC, Internet connection, GPS, and all the gas for driving from cache to cache then an occasional $20 for 4 TB is no big deal.

 

....sorry folks, but $20 is a big deal. I bought 4...one is stuck, one not sent yet, two went missing 2 days after being put in the first cache. I won't be buying anymore $6 travel bugs.


 

violin.jpg

 

Would you really buy 4 more for a few dollars less? How much would you fork over if you knew you would get the same results? $15? $10? $5?. As we know, most of the missing TBs are due to newbie ignorance. I think you might be better served by leaving comments relating to putting better, more obvious instructions on the tag to avoid having them lost rather than posting sort of a general disgruntlement with the main risk of chosing to play the TB game that lowering the cost slightly by going to plastic tags will not even address. (forgive the run-on sentence)

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quote:
Originally posted by McCaughan Family:

I like the metal bugs.

 

As for the plastic idea, since so many people attach a goal card to the bug anyway, why not have the plastic instruction card come with the metal tag. Then the bug is both metal and plastic. Tracking number metal. Instructions (replaceable) plastic.

 

My kids (13, 10 and 7--the 1 year old can't have the chain for a few years) love the chain because they can wear their "copy" and it gives them more ownership of their bug. I think it also cements the concept that this thing they can't see is out there somewhere.

 

I think the cost of the bug is more than reasonable. And if the cost went up to cover the addition of the plastic instructions I think it would still be reasonable.


 

What he said.... I used to be in the military and one of the biggest highlights was wearing the dogtags. It gave a sense of ownership. To give some other thoughts, metal for the official tag because:

 

1. DEET does eat plastic

2. the metal is recognizable, I found a TB on my second cache and knew what it was and figured it out (perhaps revised instructions instead of the poem would help for those who are TB challenged)

3. I love the ownership stuff quoted above.

4. as quoted elsewhere, "if it ain't broken..." As more people become familiar with the sport, the tags to give a familiar identity.

 

Just my 2c.

 

The place where your treasure is, is the place you will most want to be, and end up being -- The Message icon_wink.gif

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Keep the metal tags and don't delute them with cheap plastic ones! There's nothing like opening the cache and finding that bug in there waiting for you. The metal gives it an official feeling. I agree with the Gowen Family...if you can afford all the expensive stuff then why not a few bucks more for a few Travel Bug tags?

 

topdog01

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I Prefer metal over plastic for multiple reasons.

 

1. Plastic is brittle, metal is not

2. metal can alwas be melted down and recycled Plastic not as easily

3. geocaches are littered with trinkets and dollarstore goodies. a metal bug sticks out more.

4. since I paid more for shipping than the TB. I am inclined to want the metal one, so I get a better feeling of value for my money.

 

can't the costs be brought down on the TB in otherways?

 

Things that could decrease the cost of the TB are:

 

 <LI> 
Modifying the metal compound

 <LI> 
Not including the chains (or shorter chains)

 <LI> 
Increasing the production runs of the tags

 <LI> 
Changing the machine shop that presses them

 

There must be more ways but I can't think of them right now.

 

Shipping costs can be reduced by modifying the way they are sent. USPS regular mail in an envelope as letter mail.

 

May the little garmin dude guide you safely.

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Plastic never decomposes. The less made out of plastic, in my opinion, the better. We picked up a lot of plastic garbage on the riverbank today. It saddens me when a 9 year old says to her Mom, "Mom, people are bad, they're trashing the planet!" So, I like the metal tags. And plastic just seems so cheap and tacky. Metal is shiny, and shows up in the cache box when the sun hits it just so and you see that glint of metal. Yes, I prefer metal tags.

 

Cache you later,

Planet

 

So many caches, so little time.

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I like the metal ones. It makes it easy to have one design to look for when you want to check through a cache's contents fast.

 

I would like to see the wording changed to provide a bit of instruction on where to go to log them. The stuff currently printed on them could be replaced by "Please ensure you log this bug at:", or something along those lines.

 

Dave_W6DPS

 

My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only)

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I would prefer metal as well. As others have said, the look and feel of metal is better and there is too many plastic "bits" in the caches already.

 

Postage is more of a problem. Here in Germany I had to import my bugs resulting in a unit cost of almost $10 each. Most of that was postage costs. icon_frown.gif

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."

--------------------------------------------------------

Victor

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My option is to keep the metal tag, concentrate on the tagless numbers, and leave the plastic for later. Personally, I'd either only pay for the metal tag or the tagless version. I can produce my own.

 

Here is an example of some add-on tags I made for a TB I picked up and moved on.

 

Here is a tag I made for one of own TBs.

 

As far counterfeiting a TB, is can be done now. Just make up something and put a homemade tag on it. IF the owner doesn't have a picture of the TB on the TB page, the counterfeit bug can get logged several times before anyone gets the wiser.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the "authentic" metal tag, but a lot the arguments against anything other than the metal one just don't fly in my book.

 

Produce a plastic tag for those who want them. The bugs with the metal tags will still be rare, if not more so, and more people can play.

 

Me, I'm still waiting for the $1 a piece tagless TB serials.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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Well, I love my travel bugs, and I love that they are metal, and not plastic. I know there are very tough plastics out there that will stand up to anything, but a number stamped into the metal is much harder to scrape off with a pocket knife than it will be in plastic.

 

I am one who will stick with the metal tags, if the price goes up, I'll just do with fewer, that's all.

 

I'd probably buy some of the plastic instruction tags though, I think that is the addition I like the best.

 

Will be ordering 8 new METAL tags in the next few days.......

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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I'm coming late to this discussion,so I'm sure it's all been said. However I would prefer the metal tags. Plastic just doesn't seem to hold up well in a physical world, and in tracking some caches, things get a little physical.

 

Would hate to pull a TB out of my pocket and find it busted in half.

 

The other thing about a cheaper ($) version of the TB, as others have mentioned, is that more of them would proliferate. I see no real problem of this other than the need for more and more server space to accomadate them. I have no idea how the Groundspeak gurus operate this terrific site, but it seems to me that more people who cache and the more cache sites that are established and the more travelbugs that are released all lead up to more and more cost in one way or another, including time. So if Jeremy and Co. can handle it, Via Con Dios.

 

GeoNav icon_cool.gif

 

So many caches, so little time! The forest awaits!

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Plastic does decompose, some metals don't.

Plastic is at least as easy as metal to recycle.

I hate plastic. It has its place sometimes, but

would you wear a plastic ring on your finger?

 

Metal has class. Metal is durable.

If it's stainless steel it will not decay.

I agree that the current tag should have a

brief outline of instruction on the back of it.

 

If people want plastic tags, sell them just the

number, and they can do it on their own, but I

really like the fact that when I see a travel

bug, it's instantly recognizable.

 

I thought there already is a way to click over

to the travel bug's page from the cache it is

listed in (referring to an earlier post).

 

Personally, I would make them about 20% larger, include instructions, leave them as metal.

 

I'm ambivalent on selling just the numbers. I'm an avid DIY'er, but I like the commonality & uniformity of the current scheme.

 

I do wish that every bug had its goal, even if it doesn't have one in particular, noted with the hitchhiker )plainly & easy to see).

 

Maybe when a person buys a bug, he could state his goal so it could be printed on a second tag for an extra cost?

 

But, overall, I like them the way they are.

They could be stamped from metal in the shape of a bug, but would have to be a little larger to leave room for text.

 

I hope that someday we will be able to put away

our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.

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I think we should focus on what's wrong with TB's and their tags.

 

THEY GO MISSING!

 

This has nothing to do with what the tag's are made of, metal or plastic (although metal rules), but instead what the tag says.

 

Attaching a laminiated note with the bugs goal is practically mandatory now.

 

Adding some kind of see through sealable plastic pouch would be great. A template for the TB note could be posted to the gc.com web site and you would just print your own goal sheet. Insert your goal sheet into the pouch and your TB is off to the races.

 

my 2 cents

 

Learn from the mistakes of others as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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I preffer metal tags. Plastic would be fine if they are embossed (not printed).

I do not want homemade tags. I preffer the idea of a uniform tag, easy to identify. I think the shape should remain the same as the current tag (to avoid confusion). I would still want to buy metal tags, even if they cost more.

 

-- Keep finding.

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Our preference would be to stay with the metal as well, for many of the reasons already listed by others.

 

Among other things, if the number of metal tags sold drops, the cost per tag may well rise for those who continue to purchase them. Because the job runs are smaller, the setup costs cannot be spread over as many pieces.

 

As far as printing the goals when the tags are ordered, many people seem to buy several then release them over a period of time. They may not know when they buy them what the goal will be. I think it's better for people to use their own formats to produce the goals once they know what they are. See the thread "labeling travel bugs" for some methods already in use. We tend to prefer Rocketman's template.

 

http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=6016058331&m=75460905

 

"Roads? Where we're going we don't need .... roads" --Dr. Emmett L. Brown

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