Do people *really* always get permission?

[+e-bird67]

So, there are some pretty out-there caches. Some involve crawling around old abandoned buildings where there are things like broken glass and rusty nails. Others involve climbing dangerous old structures. Every time I find one or hear about one of these, my first thought is: "Cool!" and my second thought is: "Yeah- right- like someone hunted down the land owners who abandoned this property full of hazards and secured permission for people to traipse around and court tetanus.

 

So- really- is it fairly common to place caches and pretend that permissions have been obtained, or are most hiders diligently tracking landowners down and convincing them that it's a good idea to have people climb up their old towers and walk through their creaky old abandoned homes?

[knowschad]

Wow! I don't know where you are finding those caches, but I want some!!

 

The guidelines expressly state that "adequate" permission is required. Nowhere do they require explicit permission on all caches. My guess is that the percentage of explicit permission is actually very low.

 

Now, I'm not saying that your abandoned buildings have adequate permission, but if they truely are abandoned, that who would be able to give explicit permission?

[jholly]

Wow! I don't know where you are finding those caches, but I want some!!

 

The guidelines expressly state that "adequate" permission is required. Nowhere do they require explicit permission on all caches. My guess is that the percentage of explicit permission is actually very low.

 

Now, I'm not saying that your abandoned buildings have adequate permission, but if they truely are abandoned, that who would be able to give explicit permission?

 

Some one owns the property, some one is paying the taxes unless the county has foreclosed for unpaid taxes.

[GOF and Bacall]

The answer is no, not all cache owners get permission. Not all caches locations require permission. Some should have explicit permission and don't. When seeking it is my recommendation that if you have a question about the legality of your being someplace just walk away. You can always ask the CO and come back if they satisfy you about the permission issue. Remember, there is nothing that says you need to find every cache.

[+roziecakes]

I actually do get permission. All of the city officials in Junction City have our phone number, and we have been to meetings of the historical society here to get permission from them and to give presentations about geocaching. I've spent a lot of time on the phone with the Bureau of Land Management, and even drove 100 miles to talk to a State Park manager. It's all been worth it. What's the worst they could do? Say no? Then I would have to find another place, and that's fine, but trust me, they get a better opinion of cachers when people talk to them.

 

I know that there are some cachers who don't get permission, and I think the guidelines used to be different back in the day (not sure though). The Park manager that I mentioned above noted that although there were five caches in his park, only two cachers, myself and another cacher in their local area had actually talked to him in person.

 

There are, however, a good number of folks who do get permission and it's important to them. I get that impression from a lot of our local cache hiders too, because we've discussed our meetings with park managers, etc. with each other.

 

As for 'abandoned' structures... usually there is someone who owns or at least manages that land, even if the building itself has been abandoned. Plus, I think that each area has different laws regarding that sort of thing.

 

Edit: And yes, GOF is right, not all locations require permission... if you talk to local cache hiders who've been hiding a long time, they usually know what those places are. I have a couple of caches like that, including one on my own property.

 

Hope that answers your question!

Edited September 3, 2010 by nymphnsatyr

[+Fiver1]

I've only placed one cache, but I did get explicit permission from the property owner. If I place any more, it will be the same or else I won't place the cache.

 

I feel certain that there are caches (perhaps a large number, maybe not) that don't have any permission to be there. This is something I totally disagree with and does nothing but harm our sport.

[+t4e]

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

Does that mean I can come and place a cache on your front lawn? I doubt it. Why does everyone assume they need to see a sign that the property is private before they accept it as private? Check the local town hall!

 

When I place caches on State Parks or Management Areas, I do not get explicit permission. RI DEM and Parks & Rec know about geocaching, and have accepted it (they even had me do a geocaching 101 at one of their official summer events).

 

I have placed 2 caches on private property (a local privately owned bird sancutary and another on a privately owned historic site) and asked & received permission for both.

[+PLMerry]

 

If you talk to local cache hiders who've been hiding a long time, they usually know what those places are. I have a couple of caches like that, including one on my own property.

 

The cache on your property, did you get explicit or adequate permission?

 

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

This is definitely not true in Ohio. Ohio law says that it is illegal to go onto private property without the permission of the owner or interested party. This was/is to protect property owners from being sued for injuries that occurred on their property to people who had no right to be there.

 

There are other states where the law is just the opposite as t4e states. Do not make assumption talk to local cache hiders. I talked to a local officer. His impression was that having the cache information is implicit permission to go onto the property.

 

I have had a couple property owners, managers, or employees stop me and ask me why I was there. When I told them and they said that there was no permission for the cache I promptly informed the cache owner. As in everything in geocaching though use common sense. When in doubt send an email.

 

Off course this all just my opinion.

[+PLMerry]

When I place caches on State Parks or Management Areas, I do not get explicit permission.

 

In Ohio it is just the opposite. In state parks or management areas explicit written permission is required and a cache will not be approved by Keystone, our reviewer, without a note on the cache page to that extent.

 

I have held back placing two caches because I cannot get permission of even find out who to get permission from.

Edited September 3, 2010 by PLMerry

[GOF and Bacall]

 

If you talk to local cache hiders who've been hiding a long time, they usually know what those places are. I have a couple of caches like that, including one on my own property.

 

The cache on your property, did you get explicit or adequate permission?

 

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

This is definitely not true in Ohio. Ohio law says that it is illegal to go onto private property without the permission of the owner or interested party. This was/is to protect property owners from being sued for injuries that occurred on their property to people who had no right to be there.

 

There are other states where the law is just the opposite as t4e states. Do not make assumption talk to local cache hiders. I talked to a local officer. His impression was that having the cache information is implicit permission to go onto the property.

 

I have had a couple property owners, managers, or employees stop me and ask me why I was there. When I told them and they said that there was no permission for the cache I promptly informed the cache owner. As in everything in geocaching though use common sense. When in doubt send an email.

 

Off course this all just my opinion.

 

When I place caches on State Parks or Management Areas, I do not get explicit permission.

 

In Ohio it is just the opposite. In state parks or management areas explicit written permission is required and a cache will not be approved by Keystone, our reviewer, without a note on the cache page to that extent.

 

I have held back placing two caches because I cannot get permission of even find out who to get permission from.

 

Shows just how local these issues are.

[+JBnW]

All of my hides have explicit permission from both fed and state landowners/managers. The Corps of Engineers around here require a permit to place caches, and getting that was a help as they knew of some "more interesting" hidey holes that fit into the theme of the caches. They helped make the hides better than I probably would have done on my own. The state just wanted to make sure the hides didn't/wouldn't interfere with hunters using the areas...another good thing to check. Yes, it can be a little more legwork for getting the cache placed, but worth every minute of it!

 

Especially since I work with them!

[+Chokecherry]

I got permission for the caches I want to place. I did it to be a good ambassador of the hobby and build a relationship with the community officials.

[+t4e]

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

Does that mean I can come and place a cache on your front lawn? I doubt it. Why does everyone assume they need to see a sign that the property is private before they accept it as private? Check the local town hall!

 

 

we are talking here anything other than residential areas which to me is implied they are private property, as well as anything that common sense will tell you is private property

 

my comment was based on the fact that people use common sense, apparently i was wrong if you point out residential area

[+e-bird67]

We have some hiders here who specialize in old abandoned buildings/homes/structures, and they have some of the most awesome, adrenaline-boosting caches I've ever seen, but I just wonder sometimes how they get the landowners to agree to let cachers climb into these rickety old structures when it seems like the liability factor would scare the crap out of most landowners.

 

When I read the descriptions for some of the extreme caches that involve climbing into storm drain systems, climbing huge trees or water or electric towers, or donning bunny suits to descend into an abandoned containment building contaminated with radioactive and toxic chemical waste, I just have a hard time believing that, given the fear of litigation in our country, that there are landowners- either private or public- who would happily give permission for people to put themselves in harm's way on their land.

 

I'm not knocking these hides, as I am in awe of anyone who has the nerve to do these extreme caches, but I'm just curious.

 

I have a cache I'd like to place that crosses 3 large plots of land that are just used for hunting, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach the landowners to maximize the chance that they'll allow me to place a cache there. I queried our local GIS database and have identified the owners, and 2 of the three plots are owned by people who don't even live around here. Do you just send letters? What can I say to these people that would inspire them to allow total strangers to bushwhack through their hunting lands?

[GOF and Bacall]

We have some hiders here who specialize in old abandoned buildings/homes/structures, and they have some of the most awesome, adrenaline-boosting caches I've ever seen, but I just wonder sometimes how they get the landowners to agree to let cachers climb into these rickety old structures when it seems like the liability factor would scare the crap out of most landowners.

 

When I read the descriptions for some of the extreme caches that involve climbing into storm drain systems, climbing huge trees or water or electric towers, or donning bunny suits to descend into an abandoned containment building contaminated with radioactive and toxic chemical waste, I just have a hard time believing that, given the fear of litigation in our country, that there are landowners- either private or public- who would happily give permission for people to put themselves in harm's way on their land.

 

I'm not knocking these hides, as I am in awe of anyone who has the nerve to do these extreme caches, but I'm just curious.

 

I have a cache I'd like to place that crosses 3 large plots of land that are just used for hunting, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach the landowners to maximize the chance that they'll allow me to place a cache there. I queried our local GIS database and have identified the owners, and 2 of the three plots are owned by people who don't even live around here. Do you just send letters? What can I say to these people that would inspire them to allow total strangers to bushwhack through their hunting lands?

 

Some of those caches probably don't have permission.

 

As for your proposed caches I'd think a good place to start is the recreational use laws in your state. Many states have them and the whole point is to limit the liability of a landowner when he opens up his property for the casual recreation use of others. They very from state to state so you need to check out your own states laws. It will help convince a landowner when you can ease his mind about the liability.

[+roziecakes]

 

If you talk to local cache hiders who've been hiding a long time, they usually know what those places are. I have a couple of caches like that, including one on my own property.

 

The cache on your property, did you get explicit or adequate permission?

 

Is this supposed to be humorous?

[+roziecakes]

When I place caches on State Parks or Management Areas, I do not get explicit permission.

 

In Ohio it is just the opposite. In state parks or management areas explicit written permission is required and a cache will not be approved by Keystone, our reviewer, without a note on the cache page to that extent.

 

I have held back placing two caches because I cannot get permission of even find out who to get permission from.

 

If you put the name of the park into Google, you can usually find a website that references some bureau or land manager. That's what I do. Even if the email you write or the number you call doesn't get the direct person you need to contact, usually that person will point you where you need to go. That has been my experience. It's easier than you think.

 

I applaud Keystone for being so thorough.

[+Chokecherry]

We have some hiders here who specialize in old abandoned buildings/homes/structures, and they have some of the most awesome, adrenaline-boosting caches I've ever seen, but I just wonder sometimes how they get the landowners to agree to let cachers climb into these rickety old structures when it seems like the liability factor would scare the crap out of most landowners.

 

When I read the descriptions for some of the extreme caches that involve climbing into storm drain systems, climbing huge trees or water or electric towers, or donning bunny suits to descend into an abandoned containment building contaminated with radioactive and toxic chemical waste, I just have a hard time believing that, given the fear of litigation in our country, that there are landowners- either private or public- who would happily give permission for people to put themselves in harm's way on their land.

 

I'm not knocking these hides, as I am in awe of anyone who has the nerve to do these extreme caches, but I'm just curious.

 

I have a cache I'd like to place that crosses 3 large plots of land that are just used for hunting, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach the landowners to maximize the chance that they'll allow me to place a cache there. I queried our local GIS database and have identified the owners, and 2 of the three plots are owned by people who don't even live around here. Do you just send letters? What can I say to these people that would inspire them to allow total strangers to bushwhack through their hunting lands?

 

Much of our country land here is owned by private individuals who use it for recreational stuff like hunting. Even if they don't live around here they still are sometimes touchy about what their land is used for in the off season. And I know some who would be concerned about this game being on their land due to to the seemingly constantly traffic in and out driving animals away or people appearing in the area during hunting season where they don't anticipate people. I would be ready to address those questions of the land owners. I would probably attempt to call them if at all possible.

 

The hide where they have to go into that site where they where the suits has permission and if you see the notes on the cache they work in tandem with area agencies and authorities to keep that cache going.

[+dbrierley]

we are talking here anything other than residential areas which to me is implied they are private property, as well as anything that common sense will tell you is private property

 

my comment was based on the fact that people use common sense, apparently i was wrong if you point out residential area

 

GC1N3T7 and GC23NBH were caches placed on residential properties; there are probably more examples. Unfortunately, "adequate permission" is often assumed for residences.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

Does that mean I can come and place a cache on your front lawn? I doubt it. Why does everyone assume they need to see a sign that the property is private before they accept it as private? Check the local town hall!

 

 

we are talking here anything other than residential areas which to me is implied they are private property, as well as anything that common sense will tell you is private property

 

my comment was based on the fact that people use common sense, apparently i was wrong if you point out residential area

 

Unfortunately some people don't use common sense.

 

The problem is people assume "No Sign" = "Public Property". In rural areas, there can be large tracts of wooded property that have no "Posted" signs. Much of that property is in fact private. So there are people that will drop a cache in these locations, without even bothering to check.

 

There are a lot of online resources that one should use before dropping a cache. Our DEM has a GIS resource that shows all of heir properties. Most towns have their plat maps online, and some even are GIS enabled, so with a few clicks you can see the plat and owner.

[+t4e]

 

GC1N3T7 and GC23NBH were caches placed on residential properties; there are probably more examples. Unfortunately, "adequate permission" is often assumed for residences.

 

i am familiar with the first one, the land owner actually posted in the forums

 

how is a cemetery residential property?

 

 

Unfortunately some people don't use common sense.

 

 

you're right, i keep forgetting that

[+ErgRower]

I am surprised that there is any question here - there is no such thing as implicit permission to place a geocache on private property. In Pennsyvania entering private property may not be criminal unless the property is posted or is in defiance of a request by the owner, but if you do not have permission, you risk incurring the ire of the community.

I recently spoke with a PA state police officer who had a very negative opinion of our sport because he had received more than one complaint from property owners who knew nothing about geocaching and had came upon cachers or caches on their property with no permission.

With public property, if the area in question is owned or maintained by a govt. entity, permission should always be obtained.

[GOF and Bacall]

I am surprised that there is any question here - there is no such thing as implicit permission to place a geocache on private property. In Pennsyvania entering private property may not be criminal unless the property is posted or is in defiance of a request by the owner, but if you do not have permission, you risk incurring the ire of the community.

I recently spoke with a PA state police officer who had a very negative opinion of our sport because he had received more than one complaint from property owners who knew nothing about geocaching and had came upon cachers or caches on their property with no permission.

With public property, if the area in question is owned or maintained by a govt. entity, permission should always be obtained.

 

Don't make the mistake of assuming things are the same in the rest of the world as they are in your own little corner of it.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

 

GC1N3T7 and GC23NBH were caches placed on residential properties; there are probably more examples. Unfortunately, "adequate permission" is often assumed for residences.

 

i am familiar with the first one, the land owner actually posted in the forums

 

how is a cemetery residential property?

 

 

It could be a small family plot, on private property. In New England they are all over the place.

 

In the cited case however, the cache was not in the cemetery but across the street. In 10 minutes of online research, I was able to find out that the property was in fact private property (with name of owner, assessed value and even pictures of the buildings on the property).

 

Is ten minutes to much to ask of people to do a little research?

Edited September 4, 2010 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+ErgRower]

I am surprised that there is any question here - there is no such thing as implicit permission to place a geocache on private property. In Pennsyvania entering private property may not be criminal unless the property is posted or is in defiance of a request by the owner, but if you do not have permission, you risk incurring the ire of the community.

I recently spoke with a PA state police officer who had a very negative opinion of our sport because he had received more than one complaint from property owners who knew nothing about geocaching and had came upon cachers or caches on their property with no permission.

With public property, if the area in question is owned or maintained by a govt. entity, permission should always be obtained.

 

Don't make the mistake of assuming things are the same in the rest of the world as they are in your own little corner of it.

 

Point taken, but from my perspective, it would be a bigger mistake to assume that I had permission to place a cache on property of another.

[GOF and Bacall]

I am surprised that there is any question here - there is no such thing as implicit permission to place a geocache on private property. In Pennsyvania entering private property may not be criminal unless the property is posted or is in defiance of a request by the owner, but if you do not have permission, you risk incurring the ire of the community.

I recently spoke with a PA state police officer who had a very negative opinion of our sport because he had received more than one complaint from property owners who knew nothing about geocaching and had came upon cachers or caches on their property with no permission.

With public property, if the area in question is owned or maintained by a govt. entity, permission should always be obtained.

 

Don't make the mistake of assuming things are the same in the rest of the world as they are in your own little corner of it.

 

Point taken, but from my perspective, it would be a bigger mistake to assume that I had permission to place a cache on property of another.

 

Certainly. But my reply was meant to address your statement of PA law. Remember, once out of PA the laws are different. Sorry for the confusion.

[+lcandela123]

Check out "School's Out" which is a cache hidden in an abandoned High School in Lambertville, NJ. It was one of the most amazing caches we've ever found, but also a bit risky.

[GOF and Bacall]

Check out "School's Out" which is a cache hidden in an abandoned High School in Lambertville, NJ. It was one of the most amazing caches we've ever found, but also a bit risky.

 

There are a lot of caches by that name.

[Luckless]

I always speak to the manager, land owner. Well, except for a couple of times when I put a couple caches in public park like areas because of time constraints when I wanted to get them ready for an event. I did go and talk to the land managers later just to be sure it was okay. I just like knowing I have permission. I want to feel at ease while looking around for a hiding spot and doing maintenance. I like knowing that no one is going to come after me or other cachers demanding to know why I am there. Well, somewhat at ease, still have the muggles to worry about.

It's not easy getting permission. I could write volumes about that- having to wait for two years for a decision by the city board for me to place a cache in the park- having to give a presentation to the same- getting my name in the newspaper with the minutes of the meeting that state expressly that I have permission to geocache in the park...having someone fall on the trail and threaten to sue the city for one million dollars after shattering their leg...were they geocaching? That's all I need to help with permission for my second cache...

[+geodarts]

we are talking here anything other than residential areas which to me is implied they are private property, as well as anything that common sense will tell you is private property

 

A lot of people have a hard time understanding that private property remains private even if the public is granted right of access for specific purposes. How many parking lot caches have permission?

[+dbrierley]

Here's a live example of a cache placed in the wooded section of what appears to be a condominium property in Waterloo, Ontario (mentioned in the Canada forum): GC276CB.

 

City of Waterloo imagery indicates the cache is on the property at 200 Shakespeare Drive.

 

One of the May 29, 2010, logs says: "As we approached the woods, a local resident started shouting at us that we were trespassing and the wood lot was their property and we had to leave."

[+Chokecherry]

Here's a live example of a cache placed in the wooded section of what appears to be a condominium property in Waterloo, Ontario (mentioned in the Canada forum): GC276CB.

 

City of Waterloo imagery indicates the cache is on the property at 200 Shakespeare Drive.

 

One of the May 29, 2010, logs says: "As we approached the woods, a local resident started shouting at us that we were trespassing and the wood lot was their property and we had to leave."

 

I'm totally enjoying your bookmark list of bad ideas.

[+dbrierley]

I'm totally enjoying your bookmark list of bad ideas.

 

Thank you! I hope the list is informative.

[+TerraViators]

I'm totally enjoying your bookmark list of bad ideas.

 

Thank you! I hope the list is informative.

I have 13 traditional caches under my belt. I know that 12 of them are on public land or road easements, etc. The other one is on the campus of a public college. I'm not sure how the permission guideline works with that one. I did not seek permission from the Board of Regents or any other governing entity.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TerraViators

[+dbrierley]

I have 13 traditional caches under my belt. I know that 12 of them are on public land or road easements, etc. The other one is on the campus of a public college. I'm not sure how the permission guideline works with that one. I did not seek permission from the Board of Regents or any other governing entity.

 

Elsewhere in the forums people have suggested contacting the campus police for permission for college caches. Unless the college has a policy against geocaching, they just might approve it.

[Andronicus]

in the absence of a visible "Private Property. No Trespassing" sign the assumption is permission is not needed

 

Does that mean I can come and place a cache on your front lawn? I doubt it. Why does everyone assume they need to see a sign that the property is private before they accept it as private? Check the local town hall!

 

 

we are talking here anything other than residential areas which to me is implied they are private property, as well as anything that common sense will tell you is private property

 

my comment was based on the fact that people use common sense, apparently i was wrong if you point out residential area

 

Unfortunately some people don't use common sense.

 

The problem is people assume "No Sign" = "Public Property". In rural areas, there can be large tracts of wooded property that have no "Posted" signs. Much of that property is in fact private. So there are people that will drop a cache in these locations, without even bothering to check.

 

There are a lot of online resources that one should use before dropping a cache. Our DEM has a GIS resource that shows all of heir properties. Most towns have their plat maps online, and some even are GIS enabled, so with a few clicks you can see the plat and owner.

In my privince (Alberta), in rural areas, land with no fence, no home building, or is not a quarter section next to a quarter section with a home building, the land is considered public, even if it is private.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Here's a live example of a cache placed in the wooded section of what appears to be a condominium property in Waterloo, Ontario (mentioned in the Canada forum): GC276CB.

 

City of Waterloo imagery indicates the cache is on the property at 200 Shakespeare Drive.

 

One of the May 29, 2010, logs says: "As we approached the woods, a local resident started shouting at us that we were trespassing and the wood lot was their property and we had to leave."

 

What I find funny is that the CO states she will check ownership (on 30 May), but never posts another log indicating that she did. I guess if you ignore something, it goes away.

[+t4e]

Here's a live example of a cache placed in the wooded section of what appears to be a condominium property in Waterloo, Ontario (mentioned in the Canada forum): GC276CB.

 

City of Waterloo imagery indicates the cache is on the property at 200 Shakespeare Drive.

 

One of the May 29, 2010, logs says: "As we approached the woods, a local resident started shouting at us that we were trespassing and the wood lot was their property and we had to leave."

 

there is no sign prohibiting access

those discussions and examples regarding permission are irrelevant because each country/region has their own rules, like Andronicus said in Canada we have different land laws , and with the cache in your example there is no sign prohibiting access

 

No Sign=Permission Implied

 

this is taken from OLA (Ontario Landowner Association

 

Entry on to Private Property

In general terms anyone may enter onto private property to do anything, which is lawful without occupier permission unless the entrant has been given notice that entry is prohibited. Therefore, a private owned bush lot is available to the public until the occupier notifies otherwise. The occupier has a number of options when it comes to letting people know that entry is prohibited or that activities are restricted.

 

You must Explicitly Notify that Access is Prohibited - Put up Signs

 

 

What I find funny is that the CO states she will check ownership (on 30 May), but never posts another log indicating that she did. I guess if you ignore something, it goes away.

 

they don't need to do anything, as it stands the public has free access to those woods

Edited September 6, 2010 by t4e