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TB Prisons


veit

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Putting this out here to get some feedback. The last few weeks I've been reading up a lot on TB hotels, prisons, the general etiquette of TB traveling. Also hid my first cache as a TB hotel (I understand that some people are opposed to the idea in general to reduce the risk for bugs getting stolen...but I tried to make mine as safe as possible...and I personally have always liked the idea).

 

Anyway, so of course I love the term TB prison, and the consensus here seems to be very clear: they should not exist, and if they exist, they should be cleaned out and the bugs moved on. Even though this is the consensus, I was very surprised to see so many prisons still in existence. I like reading the descriptions of other TB hotels...to learn, to see what's going on there...and man, there are so many prisons. Don't quite understand it.

 

When I followed a link from an old Forum thread (from 2006!) to one of the most outrageous TB prisons (edit: used the wrong link, wanted to link here: http://coord.info/GCVZDC) I came across so far (that guy seriously demands 25 TBs as prisoners at any one time), and reading the logs, I couldn't hold back and logged "Needs Archived". For another one in Germany I simply posted a friendly note, to which the owner quickly responded by changing the cache description.

 

So yeah, I think this is a pretty good way to solve the TB prison story once and for all. Even if the cache descriptions don't change all at once, a lot of other cachers will see log entries and learn that TBs should not/must not be traded.

 

However, I do feel a bit of a smarta** posting those logs to other people's caches...especially since I just read about them online (otherwise they might be great!). So I guess I came here to get feedback, and help. I have not really been a really active cacher, so the number behind my user name doesn't really convey a sense of authority ;-) If a few of the more experienced ones here could simply do what I did for those caches - throw in a friendly note, I think we can really get rid of the prisons quickly.

 

Heck, we could even design a standard log-template that's very friendly, but still gets the message across to the prison directors and any visitors to those facilities, and that could then be posted by anyone (this way it might be seen much less as a personal attack on the cache owner).

 

And another idea: set up a Bookmark list "TB Prisons", and just throw them all on there. And once the descriptions is changed, take them off. Can't do this myself, as I'm not a Premium Member (but honestly thought about becoming one just to be able to do that...but I don't think I have the time to update that list), any volunteers? :-)

 

Greetings from Germany,

 

Veit

Edited by veit
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I just have one of them open right now, and will log a note...so I'll just throw a first draft for a template in here...please improve:

 

Hi there, I just read your cache description. While it's great that you want to help travel bugs and coins on their journeys, please remember that they are NOT trade items. Geocachers are free to take as many as they can carry from any cache, as long as they help them travel and log them correctly so the owners know where their beloved bugs are. It would be great if you could edit your cache description and take out anything that hints to cachers having to trade TBs and coins (or leave a certain number in the cache). You can find lots of more info and discussions about TBs in this Forum category.

 

Good? I'll beta-test it on this cache now, let's see what happens.

 

BTW, adding some kind of crazy name at the end of this log entry (Prisons Into Hotels Effort) or something like that could help...because it makes it seem as much more a coordinated effort than just some a**holes posting random notes ;-)

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Singling out these caches by using a Bookmark or a NM log is NOT recommended. Calling out an owner in this manner is only going to cause resistance.

 

Any cache with a trade restriction should be directed to a reviewer. I strongly suggest leaving guideline enforcement to gc.com.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Thanks for the answer :-)

 

I understand the point about singling out owners. But if someone set up such a bookmark list "TB Prisons"...and maybe linked to a thread here in the bookmark description, explaining what prisons are and why they are bad...not sure it would be the worst solution. But it was just an idea.

 

You propose a much better one:

Any cache with a trade restriction should be directed to a reviewer. I strongly suggest leaving guideline enforcement to gc.com.

 

So IS Groundspeak doing anything about those caches??? If they are, it's even more surprising to see all those prisons still around. And if Groundspeak is NOT doing anything about them, well, I guess then it IS up to the community to point out that any TB prison clearly goes against the consensus...and the wishes of most TB owners I've read so far.

 

How can I contact a reviewer about a cache? If someone has a good contact - they could start here: http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.a...20-5abe259aa9d0 - it's a large bookmark list of 500 or so TB Hotels...I just read the first 20 or so...and only found a couple or so that did NOT have a trade restriction (or something like - leave at least 4 bugs in there, the hotel is afraid to be empty alone).

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I've gone toe-to-toe with plenty of these owners, but I do it when they come to the forums. You don't go out and poke them with a stick just because you don't think enough is being done.

 

Any local knows who their reviewer is, if that local feels like it needs to be addressed they will. I certainly wouldn't expect reviewers to just cruise cache listings looking for violations. They need to be told, and how they deal with the issue usually isn't passed back to the general population.

 

Do me a favor - don't push your expectations on the owners in my area, you don't have to deal with the fallout. Stick close to home and deal with your locals. If you do want to report caches in my area contact the reviewer, they are usually listed in the very cache first log.

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@BlueDeuce: thanks again. I've just been reading a bit more on the Forum...and you seem pretty cool, I like your posts...so hope you won't take it the wrong way if I explain/discuss a bit more :-)

 

I don't quite understand why the "travel bug community", eg. all of us who care about bugs and their travels, shouldn't try to convince Prison Owners to turn them into Hotels. I think a lot of it is really just education...or giving them some other sort of "reward" maybe, so they don't take their self-esteem out of looking at the bug listings of their cache. And I disagree with you that this should be done locally - bugs are sent all over the world, and if I send out a bug I wouldn't want it to get stuck anywhere...no matter if it's 50km from here, or in your area.

 

So I see posts from the community actually as a much less harsh measure than reporting to reviewers...and less work for the reviewers as well, since the community will quickly solve this problem itself. And the "fallout" can easily be directed to one Forum thread about TB prisons.

 

Don't know, I haven't been active long enough here to maybe really understand all the nuances of it...but to me it seems that prisons are bad (and this seems to be the overwhelming consensus, not just "my expectations") and that apparently nothing is being done about them (except for maybe some brave souls cleaning them out when they see them...like they say here). Am I wrong?

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If you had a bug in a prison you can certainly request it either be moved out or the trade restriction be ignored for your bug. You do not launch a public crusade where everyone piles on the cache owner. The last thing you need is a tic'd off cache owner holding a bunch of bugs.

 

I despise trade restrictions probably more than anybody, and I've been dealing with them for nearly long as anybody here. This not an issue of a cache needing repair or that it is outside of placement guidelines. Some people consider this an ALR issue. I don't, I just think it's a trade restriction which has people fooled that they have to abide by it.

 

If you go to the cache site and take all the bugs, you might have a fight with the cache owner that you are going to have backing from gc.com, from me, and the rest of the community. If you want to target caches by claiming they are in violation of guidelines and contacting the owner yourself or hassling them on their cache page, I'm telling ya, you are going to have a tough time getting backing. In fact, I'll side with the owner if that happens.

 

Contact the reviewer, let them address the issue. If after a time they tell you that restriction can stay, take the report upstairs.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Hm, BlueDeuce, in all respect - I think you are overcomplicating the issue :-) All I'm really saying is that: we all agree TB prisons are bad, it's a community consensus. But for some reason, a lot of TB prisons still exist. So why don't we all leave a friendly log entry if we come across one. Just like we do when a logbook is full, for example. I don't see any real need for reviewers to be involved...or anything "taken upstairs" - that would be much more strongarming cache owners into changing their listing. If they know, that every once in a while someone will post a log pointing out that they are running a prison...I think it will get them to change their cache description in a much friendlier way.

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A few years ago another cacher had actually made a public bookmark list of all the TB prisons he found out or was told about. He faced all kinds of derision in the forums. It is my understanding he also got some pretty ugly emails about it. If you wanna take that kinda heat, go for it. I don't recommend it. I just free all the prisoners I can.

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I'm a bit surprised to find that the cache that the OP provided the link to (GC2C96P) which had the trading restrictions within the description was published quite recently. This suggests to me that at least one German reviewer is not aware that such restrictions should not be allowed in new TB Hotel cache listings.

 

My experience here in UK is that there are still a few older TB hotels around which have these restrictions but if a UK reviewer is informed they will take action to contact the cache owner and ask for the cache description to be changed.

 

Perhaps this is something that the OP could bring up as a topic in the German forum, to educate/inform German cachers who are not aware - and also to discover whether the many German reviewers understand this matter too!

 

MrsB

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@Blorenges: ups, yes, I used the link to the German cache by accident in my first post. I added the one of the crazy "25 prisoner" cache I actually wanted to put there.

 

BTW, I don't think it's a German problem - the other prisons I saw were all over the place.

 

So you want to be cache police.

 

Far from it. Already in my opening post I said that I don't want to do it...that I actually expect everyone to do it. It's not about playing police, it's simply pointing out that something is wrong with a cache. Like a full log book.

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I'm a bit surprised to find that the cache that the OP provided the link to (GC2C96P) which had the trading restrictions within the description was published quite recently. This suggests to me that at least one German reviewer is not aware that such restrictions should not be allowed in new TB Hotel cache listings.

 

 

It might have changed post-published. I would again contact that reviewer, perhaps they need policing. <_<

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Ok, I still don't understand why the reviewers really should be brought in. Trying to. BlueDeuce, you seem to know the process and the rules.

 

- is there a global rule at gc.com that new caches with trade restrictions OR rules that one or more bugs must stay in the cache CANNOT be approved? Is this rule internal, or can we read about it somewhere?

- is there some internal guideline that reviewers should take action (which?) if they are alerted to an existing travel bug prison? Could you post this guideline, or at least the basics of it?

 

Maybe we just don't know that reviewers are already actively taking a stand and getting those prisons out of this world...for me, as a relative newbie, it just doesn't look like it...so before contacting reviewers I'd like to know what they actually do about it.

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All I can say is that I know that the UK reviewers understand that there should be no restrictions placed on the movements of trackables in/out of "TB Hotels" and they won't publish a new cache that has such restrictions - they'll ask the CO to remove those details before publishing the cache.

 

If a cacher finds an older UK TB Hotel which has some restrictions or trading requirements (or perhaps one where restrictions have been added post-publication) they can contact a UK reviewer about it. Then I understand that the reviewer will contact the CO and ask that they remove those restrictions from the cache description.

 

I don't know how it works in other countries.

 

MrsB

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Thanks, MrsB! I wasn't even aware that there could be different rules about this in different countries...as I said, have no clue about the bureaucracy involved :-) I could understand differences from country to country if it's an issue with cultural/regional differences...but here it doesn't seem like it. Anyone knows how it's handled in other countries??

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Reporting back on my Beta Test. The cache owner simply deleted my log.

 

http://coord.info/GCMTR0

 

It's in Quebec, there is no reviewer listed at the very start of the cache, so I wouldn't know who to contact. It's still a TB prison. I could simply repost my log (it was just a note, the one I posted above), but I'll see if some others share their opinions here first.

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I don't want to hassle him at all. I just tried something to get rid of one TB prison. Apparently there IS no other way than stepping on some toes here - if people with 1000+ finds like him run TB prisons, it's not about not knowing better. But again, I'd prefer not to do this alone, it would definitely be better if cachers with much more experience did something about it.

Edited by veit
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I despise trade restrictions probably more than anybody, and I've been dealing with them for nearly long as anybody here. This not an issue of a cache needing repair or that it is outside of placement guidelines. Some people consider this an ALR issue. I don't, I just think it's a trade restriction which has people fooled that they have to abide by it.
Is there actually anything in the guidelines that cache owners can be pointed to specifically in reference to unenforceability of TB trading, or is it basically covered by additional logging requirements rules? Edited by Nezgar & Vana
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I despise trade restrictions probably more than anybody, and I've been dealing with them for nearly long as anybody here. This not an issue of a cache needing repair or that it is outside of placement guidelines. Some people consider this an ALR issue. I don't, I just think it's a trade restriction which has people fooled that they have to abide by it.
Is there actually anything in the guidelines that cache owners can be pointed to specifically in reference to unenforceability of TB trading, or is it basically covered by additional logging requirements rules?

 

The practice is usually discouraged by the reviewer when the cache is listed, some more so than others. The site isn't planning on listing every single possible 'requirement' just addressing them individually when the issue arises.

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited by BlueDeuce
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The practice is usually discouraged by the reviewer when the cache is listed, some more so than others. The site isn't planning on listing every single possible 'requirement' just addressing them individually when the issue arises.
I was just hoping that if I wanted to send a note to the owner of a TB "Jail" that there was something 'official' online I could reference, otherwise I don't really have any ground telling them that they are doing something wrong...
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The practice is usually discouraged by the reviewer when the cache is listed, some more so than others. The site isn't planning on listing every single possible 'requirement' just addressing them individually when the issue arises.
I was just hoping that if I wanted to send a note to the owner of a TB "Jail" that there was something 'official' online I could reference, otherwise I don't really have any ground telling them that they are doing something wrong...

 

I'll tell you what, email me the link of the cache in question.

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As far as the official word goes, I offer you this link below. It's a post from Eartha, our TB forum moderator:

 

A message to owners of TB prisons.

 

"I will say this for the benefit of TB prison owners.

 

Travel bugs belong to the Travel Bug owner. You cannot dictate that they must stay in a cache until a trade can be made. They are not yours to rule over. If a cacher wants to trade for a TB, take a TB and not leave one, or drop one off and not take one, that's how the game is played. You cannot hold them hostage until someone comes along with another travel bug to get it out of jail. If your cache is well placed, unlikely to be muggled, and easy to get to on a cacher's way through town, it will work regardless of rules. Your rules are unfair to all Travel Bug owners, and most travel bug owners would not want their travel bugs held prisoner in your cache. Any cache is a good cache for a travel bug. Telling people you will delete their logs if they don't comply would be more apt to make one avoid your cache like the plague. I sincerely hope you rethink your cache page and change your inappropriate rules. It's your cache, but it's not your travel bug.

 

Eartha

Volunteer Groundspeak Travel Bug Forum Moderator"

 

 

MrsB

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Thanks for the link to that thread, Blorenges! I just read the whole thing, and a lot of what I suggested here has already been discussed...4 years ago. But TB prisons still exist.

 

Here's what Eartha posted right in front of that excerpt:

I am resisting the urge to email this cache owner and explain to them that they are not the boss of the travel bugs. I cannot, and will not, become the TB police. It would become a full time job, with very little pay. But if anyone would like to post a link to this thread and any other TB Prison thread link on their cache page, feel free. You can quote me, with this thread link attached.

 

Which is exactly what I suggested. A semi-official template with a link to a specific Forum thread, posted by us on cache pages. I'll go so far as to say: the reason TB prisons still exist, is US, the geocaching community. If everyone of us who KNOWS that TB prisons are bad posted a note to the cache page whenever we came across one - just like we do when we see a wet log book or another problem with a cache - the TB prison problem would quickly solve itself. For one, cache owners might just get tired of those logs and change the page, and also, newbies and cachers who didnt even know about this would get educated and start cleaning out any TB prison they might come across.

 

Of course, some more evil plans like the one suggested in the thread (capturing TB prison owners' own TBs and only releasing them if replaced by another TB prison owner's bug) could be way more fun...but the note-posting should be the most effective.

 

My other suggestion was a bookmark list, and just now I found one that's already rather large: http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.a...02-275b685185ec - I sent a message to "criminal", it's maintainer, maybe he'll share his experiences in this thread. I noticed that the link to that specific bookmark list does NOT appear on the prison cache pages...wonder why. Can cache owners exclude certain bookmark lists from showing up?? Haven't seen any such option myself. This bookmark list could still be useful to make note-posting runs :-)

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A TB Prison is a cache where the owner limits the movement of the TBs and geocoins that pass through. Most common are the "take one, leave one" or the "at least XYZ bugs have to stay in the cache" "rules", which many cachers seem to really follow if they are written on a cache page. You can find a TON of those prisons in the bookmark list I linked to in my last post.

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A TB Prison is a cache where the owner limits the movement of the TBs and geocoins that pass through. Most common are the "take one, leave one" or the "at least XYZ bugs have to stay in the cache" "rules", which many cachers seem to really follow if they are written on a cache page. You can find a TON of those prisons in the bookmark list I linked to in my last post.

 

"You are welcome to find and log the cache even if you have no TB's to exchange. Feel free to take a bug or geocoin even if you don't have one to exchange."

 

This is a quote from the cache page on the first example in your list of "a TON of those prisons..."

I am assuming you didn't actually look at the caches on your list yourself. If you did, you would find that many of them are like the other example you gave in a previous post, which actually had only one bug listed, and that one had been reported missing for some time.

If you had done any homework at all you would have discovered that the "TB prison" is largely an urban myth. Geocachers have ALWAYS ignored the "trade one for one" rule. TB hotels generally end up empty at some point, until a traveling geocacher unloads a bunch in one trip. It's a self regulating phenomonon. No need for any special crusade. Really the only advice needed for new cachers is this: If you come upon a cache with rules like this, take all the travelers you find and move them along! (If there are actually any left in the first place.)

Don't get me wrong. I love the travelbug game. I just think you're chasing a phantom demon. Now, if you can come up with a way to put a dye pack in a geocoin that explodes if anyone keeps it too long, you have my full support and attention!

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If you had done any homework at all you would have discovered that the "TB prison" is largely an urban myth.

 

I hope you're right - I repeatedly mentioned that I'm pretty much a newbie ;-) However, I DID do my homework and looked at a lot of TB hotel descriptions (at least a 100), and I saw so many of those "rules" on those pages, that I started wondering how it's possible that those prisons still exist. So I encourage you to check out a few more hotel pages, from that list or not from it - you'll find that it's definitely NOT an urban myth.

 

Geocachers have ALWAYS ignored the "trade one for one" rule.

Hard to argue for me what geocachers have ALWAYS done :-) I did see a lot of logs from people who didn't "trade" because they didnt have a travel bug...and even at my own TB hotel I'm surprised how few people actually pick up TBs. But even if experienced geocachers like you know what to do and ignore such rules, I doubt you'll claim that all the new geocachers who join all the time know how exactly to deal with a TB sitting in a cache, especially if there is a "rule" on the cache page that you have to trade.

 

No need for any special crusade.

Agreed. Like I said before - I suggest all of us treat a cache with a "wrong" trading rule for TBs like one with a wet log book. The owner might not know better, and at least we should let him know with a note in the logs that his cache needs some maintenance. No crusade, just a change in standard behaviour in the community.

 

Now, if you can come up with a way to put a dye pack in a geocoin that explodes if anyone keeps it too long, you have my full support and attention!

 

Actually, I'd prefer something that paints the fingers of those blue who take out a TB or coin and don't log it for some days. Drives me crazy to check on the cache, see that some bugs have moved on and then no logs...while they still supposedly sit in the cache. If someone keeps a coin (and logged it), at least you know where it is...

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Veit,

If I've learned one thing over the years, since you quoted me from way back then, is don't make yourself the Cache Police Brigade. You will only create animosity amongst your fellow cachers. If you find a cache with trackable restrictions, bring it to the attention of your reviewer, in a private email, and let them handle it. Don't bring the wrath of cachers down on yourself. Check the history of the cache, see if travelers have been moving through regularly, before you report it as a prison. But don't take it upon yourself to deal with it. A reviewer will look at it and know what to do.

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I think I was too harsh... sorry.

Your area may be entirely different than mine. I think it's been a long time since I saw a recent log that said someone didn't pick up a TB because they didn't have one to trade, but maybe that still happens in some places.

I completely agree with you that TB prisons are a terrible idea. So we are probably in agreement about more things than not... :)

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I think I was too harsh... sorry.

Your area may be entirely different than mine. I think it's been a long time since I saw a recent log that said someone didn't pick up a TB because they didn't have one to trade, but maybe that still happens in some places.

I completely agree with you that TB prisons are a terrible idea. So we are probably in agreement about more things than not... :)

I'm pretty new to my current city I live in so I can't say how TB prisons are handled here, however I can assure you it's not too unusual to see logs in west Michigan that state they weren't moving trackables because they couldn't comply with the written Prison rules on the cache page. Those are current logs, say in the last year that I'm referring to. I'm glad to hear things are much better in your area! Maybe there's hope that what's happening in your area will eventually spread worldwide.

 

veit - Most people here seem to be against your ideas, At the risk of being roasted alive and being flamed by the regulars here I agree with you on everything you've said here. I have NOT read anything that is linked to in this thread so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with those comments, but I do wholeheartedly agree with what you've written in this forum post! I have my own theory of why people are so afraid to take any public action and if you're bored sometime feel free to contact me via my profile page and I'll be happy to share my observations with you on a one on one basis. At a little over 600 finds in a couple years geocaching I know I don't qualify as a wise old veteran cacher, but neither am I a wet behind the ears newbie. The only reason I mention my smiley count or years geocaching is even though I disagree with those things being used as deciding factors in whether a person should be speaking out on this forum I do know that to some people those are factors that they take into consideration.

 

I'm not much into the Forums anymore so if anybody replies to my post they are welcome to do so, but just be aware that I probably won't see it and probably won't be replying back to you. Happy caching everybody! :ph34r:

Edited by Chi-Town Cacher
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Darn, I missed the last replies, because for some reason no notifications came in by email anymore. Thanks, guys!

 

Eartha - could you please change the subject of the thread at least to something meaningful? Suggestion: "TB Prisons - what can we do about them as community?". Thanks!

 

I still find it kinda weird that two of the most active Forum mods/volunteers here react so harshly on my suggestion, I don't quite understand it. It was repeatedly put into my mouth that *I* want to be cache "police" whereas I was suggesting a change in logging behaviour for all of us who know about TB prisons. It's a problem that can be quickly solved by the community. Anyway, I don't have time to find out if there's a hidden agenda here, but it is strange.

 

The reason I came back here today...I just picked up my first TB from another cacher who runs a TB prison (here in Germany). What now? :blink: (see above, I do like the evil idea of keeping a TB until it is "exchanged" with a TB from another TB prison owner...that will get those prisons gone one at a time, too).

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There's no hidden agenda. You have adamantly ignored my and Eartha's suggestion to contact the local reviewer to see if they will enforce removing the restrictions.

 

Did I really? Here is what I wrote above:

 

Ok, I still don't understand why the reviewers really should be brought in. Trying to. BlueDeuce, you seem to know the process and the rules.

 

- is there a global rule at gc.com that new caches with trade restrictions OR rules that one or more bugs must stay in the cache CANNOT be approved? Is this rule internal, or can we read about it somewhere?

- is there some internal guideline that reviewers should take action (which?) if they are alerted to an existing travel bug prison? Could you post this guideline, or at least the basics of it?

 

Maybe we just don't know that reviewers are already actively taking a stand and getting those prisons out of this world...for me, as a relative newbie, it just doesn't look like it...so before contacting reviewers I'd like to know what they actually do about it.

 

I didnt get any answer to this. So maybe that's the point.

 

Again, to me as a newbie it doesnt seem as if Reviewers are actively doing ANYthing about those prisons...so why should I waste my time writing to them? Case in point the crazy 25-prisoner-minimum-prison I mentioned in my opening post (http://coord.info/GCVZDC).

 

Here is what the Reviewer posted on the cache page as a note after me (and another cacher after me) posted SBA:

 

"If the cache owner ever comes back on the site, I would hope they remove anything that implies that a person needs to leave a travel bug, regardless if they lerave one or not. Travel Bugs are meant to travel and not stock up in caches."

 

So while I was initially happy that my log got some reactions...thinking about it. You are the reviewer...this guy is not logging onto the site...there are a TON of TBs missing but logged into the cache...and you "would hope" they fix it?? Enough with the diplomacy, either reviewers fix this issue, or let us fix it as a community.

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I like the idea of a NA when you see one of those. There are in violation of the TOS he/she agreed to upon placing.

 

I took one from a prison a couple of years ago when in Phoenix for spring training and got a nasty note about not trading. Before I came home I went back and took every traveler. I think that is the best response. The CO may delete your log (as the owner did for mine) but what's one smiley when compared with the smiling faces of all the owners of the captive bugs.

 

For the proper wording

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What do you mean by "I'm up to my 4th "found" log on it"?

it means the CO kept deleting it and i had to keep relogging, even after he was told by the reviewer to stop doing that and even after the CO archived the cache himself.

Edited by dfx
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