GCGV0P Original Stash Issue

August 22, 2010

I'm really upset about what is going on the last few days with the Original Stash cache near Portland, OR!

I had looked at the page several times on the site to find the details and there was LOTS OF INFORMATION about the cache history, the plaque, how it all began! Now there is nothing. There is a 1 line cache description and all that useful information was deleted.

More importantly around the time we headed that way from out of state the ammo box and log were STOLEN! Shortly before we arrived there was a DNF entry. We got there late at night and searched but couldn't find. We returned the next day in the sunlight and still couldn't find it. We were with another cacher who said that it was gone too. He voiced his concern of the missing cache on the log page and it was removed. He also logged it as found since he found the plaque but it was removed. I wrote a lenghtly note on the page,

My girlfriend Ghostwolf and I looked around the area last night AND today in the daylight around noon with another cacher and we could NOT find the cache log. Also there is a DNF on the log. Was it muggled? We traveled from out of state to find it, we took pics of the plaque though. Wishing we can get credit because this is my would-be 50th cache. On our way right now to GC12. It was nice finding the plaque though.

Team360 please look into it ASAP. If it is missing this historic site needs to be fixed!

Also what happened to all the information on the page? It used to have the whole history of the cache/plaque and now, at least on my cell mobile browser, it's all gone!

// update 8/20

I stopped by Groundspeak HQ to finish the Triad and mentioned the missing cache here.

They suggested that due to the importance of it it should be able to photo log when something like this happens. It isn't really team360s fault that someone stole the cache, but when people travel from all over the country to come here and cant finish it because of it being missing... kinda disappointment

This entry was edited by Redken Rio on Friday, 20 August 2010 at 22:28:22.

The next day I went to the HQ in Seattle and spoke to the front desk ladies. They suggested that due to the importance of this cache and how people plan entry trips out of state to view THIS CACHE, and how it is part of the Triad Challenge, that simply visiting the site and proving it with photographs should be sufficient to view as found when the physical log is stolen. The old description before it was deleted even said LEAVE TRACKABLES AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE AREA IS HIGHLY MUGGLED.

When my girlfriend and I were on our way to GC12, about 45 minutes away towards the mountain, we ran into another team of cachers with 5000+ caches each, and real masters of the area (Their cars lic plate was even TFTC haha). They told us exactly where the container was suppose to be (wont spoil for people who haven't found it yet) but sure enough it was indeed gone. It was not made to be a hard find.

I have contacted Team360 several times asking for some solution but the only thing I am hearing is that he doesn't even live in the state and will contact his local maintainer. It's been 3 days now and people are still logging DNFs on what may be the most important Geocache site on Earth!

There was a find earlyer today, to be fair, but I am questioning if the Un-Original Cache, which is located 50' from it was what he found or not, or if maybe the cache has been fixed!

So here is the big question I want to know. I need an answer so I can forward it to the list of people I've talked to lately that were there while it was stolen:

Because myself and a handful of faithful cachers have traveled long and hard to view the site can photo evidence of us being there at the cache in a time when the cache was physically stolen be sufficient for a FOUND log, like some of the GC staff has suggested may be ok. It's not like I can just get in the car and make a 400 mile round trip again just because someone is too slow to repair the Original Stash in the whole world of GCing. I was tempted to leave a temporary log at site when I visited but that isn't my place to do.

7.4k · August 22, 2010

Aww, that sucks. I say log it.

1.7k · August 22, 2010

I've logged caches I haven't found less then 2 miles from my house simply because I was given permission too. Why the heck not? What next? You have to sign your caches? You know where it is just log it...

August 22, 2010

This other thread may explain the cache page editing. Hard to say if it also going missing is related.

2.2k · August 22, 2010

This other thread may explain the cache page editing. Hard to say if it also going missing is related.

That is just so sad :rolleyes: Some people are so petty.

August 22, 2010

I am also a cacher who could not find the ammo can yesterday didn't think it should have been to difficult. Up here north of the border there are some pretty hard caches to find in the deep bush mircos and nano's hidden in rock piles and we have managed to find some of them. Ammo can at the original stash with in 20 feet no problems. I think possibly it should be turned into a cache catagory of it's own or something where you can log it if you have pictures or if you sign the log book (if it gets replaced). I came from a long ways as well (300 miles) but I will be back again we love it down there and I still need HQ to finish of the triad. I can see the point of people who come from alot farther away maybe from overseas I would be very upset if I couldn't log it because someone stole it.

1.8k · August 22, 2010

In this instance I feel that those at the Lilly Pad should re-think the stance on virtuals ... at least in this instance.

4.2k · August 22, 2010

So here is the big question I want to know. I need an answer so I can forward it to the list of people I've talked to lately that were there while it was stolen:

Because myself and a handful of faithful cachers have traveled long and hard to view the site can photo evidence of us being there at the cache in a time when the cache was physically stolen be sufficient for a FOUND log, like some of the GC staff has suggested may be ok. It's not like I can just get in the car and make a 400 mile round trip again just because someone is too slow to repair the Original Stash in the whole world of GCing. I was tempted to leave a temporary log at site when I visited but that isn't my place to do.

You can do whatever you want but since you asked for opinions, I vote "no".

You didn't find the cache, you found the location - there is a difference.

Justifying it with the distance traveled is like justifying stealing because you really wanted something but couldn't afford it in my book.

You either found the cache, or you didn't - circumstances don't change that.

What is going on with the cache page is just plain silly, but knowing the history of the CO it's not surprising.

1.4k · August 22, 2010

I'm not going to post what I originally wrote. I'd be in support of GS making this a specific cache type, or a stage of the Triad if that's what it comes to. I'm not too hot on the Virt exception here, only because it then opens up the argument for making all the old caches possible virts.

As far as the other thread goes, those involved on both sides need to get past the 6th grade BS. We're adults people, act like it.

1.8k · August 22, 2010

This other thread may explain the cache page editing. Hard to say if it also going missing is related.

My understanding of the timeline:

- A few years ago, the Un-Original Stash became the most-found physical cache in the world.

- At some point thereafter this was noted on the cache page.

- A year or two ago, some overseas caches passed the U-OS, including a couple from the Czech Republic. Some noticed (like myself), others didn't, and the vast majority of geocachers probably didn't care.

- The cache page for U-OS was not proactively edited to reflect this.

- A few days ago a group of cachers, mostly from the Czech Republic, began leaving a series of cache notes on the U-OS page challenging the claim of most found cache in the world and suggesting that the description be changed. They were of varying degrees of politeness.

- The U-OS cache owner deletes the logs as they come in, posts a note of his own and exchanges emails with many of the overseas loggers. His messages were of varying degrees of politeness.

- Some of the Czech cachers come to the forums and appear to troll a bit. One posts a thread asking about the most found cache in the world which I foolishly take the time to reply to, although it now seems clear that the asker was hoping for an incorrect answer to pounce on. The same poster follows up that thread with one that is a fair bit less opaque regarding his knowledge and his stance towards the U-OS. It is linked above.

- The public and private communications that are posted to the forums generally reflect poorly on geocaching.

- At some point two or three days ago, the U-OS cache page is edited to say "#1 visited geocache" instead of "#1 visited geocache in the world". It is unclear who made this edit.

- An hour or two after that, Jeremy Irish posts a log to the cache page saying "This is not the #1 most visited geocache. I have edited the listing to reflect this." Shortly thereafter, all references to the U-OS being the #1 visited geocache are indeed deleted from the cache page. Although it is not 100% certain (nothing ever is), it does appear that Groundspeak has edited the cache page against the wishes of the cache owner. If true, it's the first time I've ever heard of that, although I can't be certain it hasn't happened before.

- At about the same time, the cache itself seems to have gone missing. It is entirely unclear who has done this.

- At some point within the last day or two, the cache page is edited down from a rich page of tribute to the original geocache and the genesis of our game, to a simple one-sentence description of the hide. It is unclear why. This is completely speculation on my part, but it's possible that this has been done in protest of Groundspeak's decision to edit all references of "most visited" out of the cache page against the will of the CO.

- And I think that brings us up to this thread.

8k · August 22, 2010

This other thread may explain the cache page editing. Hard to say if it also going missing is related.

My understanding of the timeline:

- A few years ago, the Un-Original Stash became the most-found physical cache in the world.

- At some point thereafter this was noted on the cache page.

- A year or two ago, some overseas caches passed the U-OS, including a couple from the Czech Republic. Some noticed (like myself), others didn't, and the vast majority of geocachers probably didn't care.

- The cache page for U-OS was not proactively edited to reflect this.

- A few days ago a group of cachers, mostly from the Czech Republic, began leaving a series of cache notes on the U-OS page challenging the claim of most found cache in the world and suggesting that the description be changed. They were of varying degrees of politeness.

- The U-OS cache owner deletes the logs as they come in, posts a note of his own and exchanges emails with many of the overseas loggers. His messages were of varying degrees of politeness.

- Some of the Czech cachers come to the forums and appear to troll a bit. One posts a thread asking about the most found cache in the world which I foolishly take the time to reply to, although it now seems clear that the asker was hoping for an incorrect answer to pounce on. The same poster follows up that thread with one that is a fair bit less opaque regarding his knowledge and his stance towards the U-OS. It is linked above.

- The public and private communications that are posted to the forums generally reflect poorly on geocaching.

- At some point two or three days ago, the U-OS cache page is edited to say "#1 visited geocache" instead of "#1 visited geocache in the world". It is unclear who made this edit.

- An hour or two after that, Jeremy Irish posts a log to the cache page saying "This is not the #1 most visited geocache. I have edited the listing to reflect this." Shortly thereafter, all references to the U-OS being the #1 visited geocache are indeed deleted from the cache page. Although it is not 100% certain (nothing ever is), it does appear that Groundspeak has edited the cache page against the wishes of the cache owner. If true, it's the first time I've ever heard of that, although I can't be certain it hasn't happened before.

- At about the same time, the cache itself seems to have gone missing. It is entirely unclear who has done this.

- At some point within the last day or two, the cache page is edited down from a rich page of tribute to the original geocache and the genesis of our game, to a simple one-sentence description of the hide. It is unclear why. This is completely speculation on my part, but it's possible that this has been done in protest of Groundspeak's decision to edit all references of "most visited" out of the cache page against the will of the CO.

- And I think that brings us up to this thread.

I guess it comes down to who owns the cache page?

7.3k · August 22, 2010

can photo evidence of us being there at the cache in a time when the cache was physically stolen be sufficient for a FOUND log, like some of the GC staff has suggested may be ok.

There's a thread here, where folks who did not find a cache went ahead and logged finds.

Many different rationalizations for that behavior.

If "some of the GC staff" owned the cache, they could give you permission to log it. I'm not a fan of this practice, but it is rather common. When a physical cache goes missing, if the cache owner allows virtual finds for long, typically that cache will be archived; not having been published as a virt.

The cache owner might give you permission to log a find, eventually.

Or you could just log a find, supposing that the cache owner is probably not going to delete your fake find.

GC could create a new virt or a new cache on site, and you probably could log that.

In the meantime, "calling" a DNF a find seems just silly to me. Sometimes you're the victim of unfortunate circumstances. I'd rather just be honest about that then play "pretend". But it's a game, geocaching, so if you want to pretend you found the cache, I suppose you can.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Isonzo Karst

10.1k · August 22, 2010

can photo evidence of us being there at the cache in a time when the cache was physically stolen be sufficient for a FOUND log, like some of the GC staff has suggested may be ok.

There's a thread here, where folks who did not find a cache went ahead and logged finds.

Many different rationalizations for that behavior.

If "some of the GC staff" owned the cache, they could give you permission to log it. I'm not a fan of this practice, but it is rather common.

The cache owner might give you permission to log a find, eventually.

Or you could just log a find, supposing that the cache owner is probably not going to delete your fake find.

GC could create a new virt or a new cache on site, and you probably could log that.

In the meantime, "calling" a DNF a find is just silly.

Agree. If the cache is missing, one cannot find it.

I logged some DNFs on my last vacation. I probably will never return to look again (if they're ever replaced). (845 miles away) Either they were missing, or we just could not find them. That's a DNF. If the cache owner said: "It was missing. You may log a find on it," I would respond: "No thanks. I did not find it."

38.2k · August 22, 2010

Because myself and a handful of faithful cachers have traveled long and hard to view the site can photo evidence of us being there at the cache in a time when the cache was physically stolen be sufficient for a FOUND log, like some of the GC staff has suggested may be ok.

That is between you and the cache owner. Personally if I don't find a cache I would not log a find regardless of circumstances. Just because I traveled far doesn't change things. If I hunt and don't find a cache there is a log type to cover that and it isn't Found It.

August 22, 2010

What gets me upset is that the “you didn’t find it, you traveled to the site” is only partially accurate. If it says “It’s under the flag at the site” and you look and point to the exact spot where the ammo can was suppose to be and even see the indentation in the dirt where it was sitting just hours ago, did you really “not find it”? The cache was gone. Period. If it were a normal Joe-Shmow cache I wouldn’t care but there are a few circumstances around the specific site. It is part of the triad challenge. If you archived the whole thing… what becomes of the challenge then? To keep it alive the challenge would probably be to log that you found the PLAQUE and not the CACHE, hence a photo cache. Or maybe if it were archived the required cache for the triad would go from the missing ammo can to the orange and white thermos bottle “Unofficial Cache” (I don’t recall the name of it) that is literally only 30 feet away from the plaque.

Another thing that gets me about ‘what the HQ says’ is that one way or another Geocaching is a game. The owners of the caches are players just like those that are seeking it out and the staff for the game itself have to have some sort of moderation, arbitration, or referee ability in how the game is played don’t you think?

You can’t finish the triad challenge if it isn’t there and the point of that stage of the triad is the plaque. Does the cache owner own the plaque too?

Some people in here said that maybe GC should make a new cache type/category for this specific site. It’s been done before. APE has its own icon and there’s only one active one left (if my history is correct), and the HQ has its own thing too. Maybe the Triad challenge should be changed to get the PLAQUE since it is embedded in the ground and can’t be just up and stolen instead of requiring the log be signed which isn’t exactly hard to steal and ruin everybody’s geocaching vacations. Virtual? I reported this cache being missing 3-4 days ago and it, to my knowledge still isn’t fixed. Again, normal cache I wouldn’t care, but it’s a significant GC place… specifically the PLAQUE is.

Maybe I should schedule a meet with GC representatives and talk to them about the specific boundaries of the Triad Challenge and it’s angle on the plaque and it’s involvement. I live only 10 minutes away from the Lillypad and I’d love to put in my two cents and help direct the future of the Triad.

When I saw the plaque cache itself was missing I was almost tempted to message Team360 and offer to fix it myself. I’d go to the local store, buy an ammo can, logbook, etc, and fix it but I didn’t have the time and it isn’t my job anyway. He doesn’t even live in the same state however if he does have contacts in the area that can fix it than in all honesty, that’s cool. It probably works out well that way, but at least use it and fix it. Shouldn’t take 3 days to fix a historic site for the game.

One thing to remember… the A.P.E. Mission #9 Tunnel of Light cache is owned by GC, or rather at least maintained. Moun10bike is a lackey. Also of course the HQ is owned by GC. Maybe the 3rd piece of the puzzle should be moderated by GC, or at least the plaque too.

One thing that would totally blow this option away is if the plaque itself is privately owned by Team360 or any other local resident. If GC owns the PLAQUE itself but not the cache related to it than why not make the PLAQUE itself, owned by GC, be the same as the APE and HQ owned by GC.

This is all just my two cents. I know it is a private cache but there has to be some moderation and refereeing. The owner should see the fairness in a photocache especially if you can POINT to the exact spot it was sitting before it was stolen. It was stolen beyond anyones control and, though sad, some understanding and moderation of this specific site should be taken. Yes it is Team360s cache. I understand that, but he can make an option to support the GC players in this time of disgruntledness or blow us all off while the cache is missing (us being people who’ve traveled across the country to see it). This isn’t your normal every day cache. It’s a GC tourist destination and piece of a significant challenge. It should be maintained frequently.

5.3k · August 22, 2010

If it says “It’s under the flag at the site” and you look and point to the exact spot where the ammo can was suppose to be and even see the indentation in the dirt where it was sitting just hours ago, did you really “not find it”? The cache was gone. Period.

The cache is gone. You admit that. So you didn't find the cache.

Traveling to the "exact spot where the ammo can is suppose to be" is not finding the cache.

A geocache is not a location.

It matters not how far you have traveled.

It matters not that this "isn't your normal every day cache".

And reporting something "3-4 days ago" and being upset that it's "still isn't fixed" is a completely unrealistic expectation in my opinion.

This is a game. It's not life and death. Not even close.

August 22, 2010

Than the triad challenge shouldn’t include a cache that isn’t maintained or even there in the first place and instead should only include the plaque that is bolted in the ground and can’t be stolen.

4.2k · August 22, 2010

The cache is gone. You admit that. So you didn't find the cache.

Traveling to the "exact spot where the ammo can is suppose to be" is not finding the cache.

A geocache is not a location.

It matters not how far you have traveled.

It matters not that this "isn't your normal every day cache".

And reporting something "3-4 days ago" and being upset that it's "still isn't fixed" is a completely unrealistic expectation in my opinion.

This is a game. It's not life and death. Not even close.

what is the point of arguing back and forth, they have clearly been given permission to log it as found

// update 8/20

I stopped by Groundspeak HQ to finish the Triad and mentioned the missing cache here.

They suggested that due to the importance of it it should be able to photo log when something like this happens. It isn't really team360s fault that someone stole the cache, but when people travel from all over the country to come here and cant finish it because of it being missing... kinda disappointment

This entry was edited by Redken Rio on Friday, 20 August 2010 at 22:28:22.

The next day I went to the HQ in Seattle and spoke to the front desk ladies. They suggested that due to the importance of this cache and how people plan entry trips out of state to view THIS CACHE, and how it is part of the Triad Challenge, that simply visiting the site and proving it with photographs should be sufficient to view as found when the physical log is stolen. The old description before it was deleted even said LEAVE TRACKABLES AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE AREA IS HIGHLY MUGGLED.

as far as reporting it and not being fixed, that's fine

as per guidelines it should be at least disabled until it is fixed

that is common courtesy to other cachers that want to go hunt for this popular cache and travel long distances

as per this post from the CO it was disabled, but somewhere along the line it became active again, that is misleading...either fix it or disable it

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...74-61d4fa4c2cce

Edited August 22, 2010 by t4e

August 22, 2010

what is the point of arguing back and forth, they have clearly been given permission to log it as found

// update 8/20

I stopped by Groundspeak HQ to finish the Triad and mentioned the missing cache here.

They suggested that due to the importance of it it should be able to photo log when something like this happens. It isn't really team360s fault that someone stole the cache, but when people travel from all over the country to come here and cant finish it because of it being missing... kinda disappointment

This entry was edited by Redken Rio on Friday, 20 August 2010 at 22:28:22.

The next day I went to the HQ in Seattle and spoke to the front desk ladies. They suggested that due to the importance of this cache and how people plan entry trips out of state to view THIS CACHE, and how it is part of the Triad Challenge, that simply visiting the site and proving it with photographs should be sufficient to view as found when the physical log is stolen. The old description before it was deleted even said LEAVE TRACKABLES AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE AREA IS HIGHLY MUGGLED.

as far as reporting it and not being fixed, that's fine

as per guidelines it should be at least disabled until it is fixed

that is common courtesy to other cachers that want to go hunt for this popular cache and travel long distances

as per this post from the CO it was disabled, but somewhere along the line it became active again, that is misleading...either fix it or disable it

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...74-61d4fa4c2cce

That’s the problem, I was never given full permission, a decisive OK to post it w/o finding it.

I am happy he disabled it at least to stop people from adding it to their plan and yes of course I hope it all gets fixed.

I am also, of course, upset that he was forced to close it because of the harassing posts on the log. That isn’t right and I don’t condone it at all! No (mature) cacher does!

Shame on them. This cache is important and it’s sad to see it disabled because of them.

This makes me wonder if it was stolen or if it was removed because of the harassing posts :huh:

I just want it 1) fixed, and 2) Triad to work out incase the cache can't be fixex.

4.2k · August 22, 2010

That’s the problem, I was never given full permission, a decisive OK to post it w/o finding it.

I am happy he disabled it at least to stop people from adding it to their plan and yes of course I hope it all gets fixed.

I am also, of course, upset that he was forced to close it because of the harassing posts on the log. That isn’t right and I don’t condone it at all! No (mature) cacher does!

Shame on them. This cache is important and it’s sad to see it disabled because of them.

This makes me wonder if it was stolen or if it was removed because of the harassing posts

I just want it 1) fixed, and 2) Triad to work out incase the cache can't be fixex.

from your original post it looks like they allow you to log it as a find with a picture as proof

no, its not officially disabled, that's my point

look at the listing, its still active

yes, the whole chain of events was upsetting, but nobody forced the CO to close it

he/she could have easily just report the harassment to Groundspeak and keep deleting the offending messages in the meantime

the way it is now all he/she did was give them satisfaction

having said that, we don't know both sides of the story, so we can't really pass any judgment on either side

7k · August 22, 2010

the cache suddenly goes missing on the same day as the listing was force-edited by Groundspeak? doesn't sound like coincidence to me.

August 22, 2010

the cache suddenly goes missing on the same day as the listing was force-edited by Groundspeak? doesn't sound like coincidence to me.

Me either :rolleyes:

@t4e

One thing I am glad for is that Team360 is doing the right thing and reporting the offensive posts to GS and deleting them.

Bad enough to have it even worse with that crud :huh:

Also sorry for my misscommunication. I didn't mean to say that GC said it was OK to do it, I was trying to relay that it should be accepted credit, temporarily, given the missing cache. I hope that it is no longer disabled because it was fixed/returned/whatever @.@;

August 22, 2010

All things considered I have really said what I came to say.

Out of respect for Team360, this should be my final post on the topic.

Also for all viewers the PLAQUE itself does belong to Team 360, which, to be fair, is pretty @#$% cool to own such a remarkable tribute/site.

I'm sorry for any trouble I caused, I am just very passionate about the situation and like all, I just want everything to be smooth.

Team360, I didn't mean to cause you any grief. Good luck getting it all straightened out and I hope the harassing posts on the logs go away. I'm sorry if I accidentally more-or-less became one of them. No disrespect intended, sir.

Please contact me when it's all straightened out and maybe we can work a solution between us? Good luck T360.

August 22, 2010

accidental x2 post. ill also request topic be closed per authors request.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Redken Rio

7.2k · August 22, 2010

Topic closed as requested.

GCGV0P Original Stash Issue

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment