Crazy all the "rules" discussion these days

[+mainsheet]

I joined a while ago and used to peruse the forums regularly a while ago (5ish years ago). Just getting back into reading the forums again and geocaching. I am surprised by how many discussions there are regarding rules, guidelines, moderators, reviewers, etc.

 

I guess it's a good thing, a sign of a growing game with lots of people but, as with everything, sometimes you wish things were simpler.

 

Have you noticed things change? Maybe for me it's more apparent because I was out for a while...

[JohnX]

I joined a while ago and used to peruse the forums regularly a while ago (5ish years ago). Just getting back into reading the forums again and geocaching. I am surprised by how many discussions there are regarding rules, guidelines, moderators, reviewers, etc.

 

I guess it's a good thing, a sign of a growing game with lots of people but, as with everything, sometimes you wish things were simpler.

 

Have you noticed things change? Maybe for me it's more apparent because I was out for a while...

Yes, I have noticed the change. Notably in "Rule Following". I have noticed people talking about "Rules" that don't exist and they clearly want to create them. Geocaching has changed. It seems to attract a lot of people who I impolitely refer to as "control freaks".

[+Xaa]

Isn't it too easy to just wave your hands a little and say 'yeah, control freaks'?

 

I guess the fact that there are more people, different people, and way more caches will automatically lead to more people trying to look for borderline situations

[mcb]

Having watch the inception of GPS-Stash on the sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup and the evolution to what it is now there had to be an increase in rules. When there was only 70 caches total the rules could be super simple and very renegade. Now with the huge number or caches and geocachers there had to be a much larger and more legitimate number of rules to keep the activity from causing trouble (legal, public relations, etc). Given the flexible and open ended nature of the activity it also spawns a large variety of ways to participate and no doubt the variation want to enforce additional rules to make their variation more fun. IMHO some level or "rules turmoil" is always going to be part of this activity.

 

Rambling

mcb

[+Gamaliel]

Sometimes there's nothing else to talk about. "I like geocaching! Yay smileys!"

[+jaydeadheader]

well there are alot of people, who cache without understanding the rules for various reasons, even people caching for months that never bothered to really research all the fine points of the rules/guidelines.

 

its a shame but its gonna happen

only thing to do is educate

[+Relheok]

I'll be honest and chime in that I never really dug deep into the rules. I understand that for FINDING a cache, I don't trespass, I don't keep trackables, I always sign the log, and I put the cache back better than I found it, ie. sealed and neat.... I guess I should read into them more

[Trader Rick & Rosie]

Nah, it's always been this way, no worries.

[hoosier guy]

I'll be honest and chime in that I never really dug deep into the rules. I understand that for FINDING a cache, I don't trespass, I don't keep trackables, I always sign the log, and I put the cache back better than I found it, ie. sealed and neat.... I guess I should read into them more

 

Yeah that is about it for me too. I know there are teams that do this but for me it is essentially a solo sport. I pick some caches, I go out & find them. That is about it. The rules you note are pretty much the ones that affect me.

 

Now for placing caches, yeah there needs to be some rules so we agree on so we're are all on the same page. People are free to discuss rules to whatever depth they choose. Some people tend to slice and dice the rules because they think it is best for caching as a whole or for their own reasons. Of course that is gonna happen in any sport, activity, group, etc (still can't grasp the off sides soccer rule) and that is fine.

[knowschad]

I joined a while ago and used to peruse the forums regularly a while ago (5ish years ago). Just getting back into reading the forums again and geocaching. I am surprised by how many discussions there are regarding rules, guidelines, moderators, reviewers, etc.

 

I guess it's a good thing, a sign of a growing game with lots of people but, as with everything, sometimes you wish things were simpler.

 

Have you noticed things change? Maybe for me it's more apparent because I was out for a while...

Yes, I have noticed the change. Notably in "Rule Following". I have noticed people talking about "Rules" that don't exist and they clearly want to create them. Geocaching has changed. It seems to attract a lot of people who I impolitely refer to as "control freaks".

You're not confusing the forums with real geocaching, are you? 'Cause I sure don't see that in my real life geocaching at all.

[+GeoMych]

What I really, really like about Groundspeak's approach to their "guidelines" is their explicit and repeated dismissal of precedent and anything resembling hard and fast "rules" that must be followed to the letter in any and all cases. The purpose of that seems to be that common sense should be applied, even if that means that the same situation might be handled slightly differently at different times.

 

The most important part of this is that there are no rules. Just guidelines.

 

People -- actual people who are hopefully well-intentioned and reasonably competent -- are supposed to interpret and apply them on a case-by-case basis, with plenty of discretion to allow or disallow things along their interpretation of the spirit in which these guidelines were made, regardless of any literal interpretation anybody might argue with.

 

Common sense is notoriously unreliable and hard to prove or get a broad consensus on, but ultimately it's the best thing we have.

Edited August 19, 2010 by GeoMych

[MisterEFQ]

Did you get permission from the site owner to post this thread? Im going to have to have to request that this thread gets archived.

 

Sheesh.

[+Markwell]

I posted this just a few days ago - seems pertinent...

My teenage son tries to get me to make hard and fast rules just so he can find loopholes or use extreme examples to show why the rule is bad.

 

Let me show you an example...."Find cache, sign log, log online, get smiley..."

 

Let's say those are the rules. Someone actually asked me once if I could take the APE cache I hid to some big picnic gathering mega event. If I had taken it to the event, people would have been able to find it there, sign the log, log online and get the smiley. Is that fair? No? OK - let's enhance the rule: "Find the cache in its original location, sign log, log online, get smiley..."

 

But what if someone moves it, or the owner moves it and it's easier to find? "Find the cache in its original location as placed by the owner, sign log, log online, get smiley..."

 

But what if the log book is soaking wet, and the paper crumbles - can't I drop a business card with my signature and date in the cache? "Find the cache in its original location as placed by the owner, sign log as best as you can or give documentation that you were actually at the location with the container in your hand, log online, get smiley..."

 

You see how this happens - and how the guidelines got to be so long?

And just two days before that:

Wait - You want people to use their brains instead of having a rule set up for them telling them what they should and shouldn't do? The guidelines would be much shorter if everyone did that. Right now, the Listing Guidelines have 5,269 words and 31,609 characters with spaces (discounting the Table of Contents and the "Return to Table of Contents" messages). In trimming out the examples and specifics and making the statements generalities, I got it down to 700 words - just over 4,000 characters with spaces. But some people LIVE to push the envelope or dance on the "acceptable" line. They have to have things spelled out exactly for them.

[+Cherokee Bill]

There will always be the "Geocaching Police"

[+Dragery]

I think the reason for all the rules discussion is there are a bunch of people who don't do much besides surf the forums, and ANYTIME someone posts a questions regarding geocaching, they feel the need to split hairs and bring up rules just to start a debate.

 

It's funner to some people to attempt and debate their interpretation of "guidelines" with fellow geocachers, just for the sake of debating, instead of simply offering their opinion on an OP's question and letting it be. That +quote reply button can be evil.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Probably a side effect of the sheer number of caches and cachers: the more well known the hobby becomes the more likely people are to start it without knowing other geocachers and thus without guidance. Plus we now have GPS units you can buy preloaded with caches, tons of smartphones with geocaching apps, and just far more GPS units and GPS users in general.

[+escomag]

Yet,

In the early days of caching, caches were special, something to come and see and do. You never found a road with a cache every 528 ft. along a road, same container, same type of hide. There are areas of the map that look seriously like cache pollution.

 

See Ya

Escomag

Yes, I have noticed the change. Notably in "Rule Following". I have noticed people talking about "Rules" that don't exist and they clearly want to create them. Geocaching has changed. It seems to attract a lot of people who I impolitely refer to as "control freaks".

[+sTeamTraen]

People -- actual people who are hopefully well-intentioned and reasonably competent -- are supposed to interpret and apply them on a case-by-case basis, with plenty of discretion to allow or disallow things along their interpretation of the spirit in which these guidelines were made, regardless of any literal interpretation anybody might argue with.

+1 to your entire post, and especially this. I would add that people need to accept that occasionally, a decision won't go their way, and that does not constitute an attack on their fundamental rights as citizens. A reviewer declining or archiving your cache, backed up by Groundspeak's appeal's procedure, is not equivalent to being deprived of your physical liberty by a totalitarian state.

[Trader Rick & Rosie]

I think the reason for all the rules discussion is there are a bunch of people who don't do much besides surf the forums,...

 

That +quote reply button can be evil.

 

Or, that button can be a reality check.

 

The posters to this forum thread, so far, have over 22,ooo forum posts and almost 17,ooo geocache finds...So I guess they do a little more something other than just surf the forums.

[+Dragery]

I think the reason for all the rules discussion is there are a bunch of people who don't do much besides surf the forums,...

 

That +quote reply button can be evil.

 

Or, that button can be a reality check.

 

The posters to this forum thread, so far, have over 22,ooo forum posts and almost 17,ooo geocache finds...So I guess they do a little more something other than just surf the forums.

 

So I guess their interpretation of the guidelines is way more important than others? (Note, I'm not asking if they have more experience Geocaching.)

[+DanOCan]

There will always be the "Geocaching Police"

 

By the same token, you will always have Geocaching Crooks -- those who insist on trying to find some way to sneak things past the established guidelines by finding loopholes.

 

Hippies vs Police.

[+geodarts]

By the same token, you will always have Geocaching Crooks -- those who insist on trying to find some way to sneak things past the established guidelines by finding loopholes.

 

Hippies vs Police. :laughing

 

The proliferation of caches has made the guidelines even more important. But what about Hippies? I live in a town that has been described as "hippie" and have my credentials (although I was a little too young for the summer of love). But I am one of the few people who actually place geocaches within three feet of a trail in a state park, as ours require, I believe that caches should not be placed behind no trespassing signs. And I am aware of the guidelines and try to follow them. Does that mean I have lost my hippie roots or that I should cut my hair?

 

But then again there was that Donovan song about Rules and Regulations. I have not thought about that for a very long time.

 

Maybe dog walkers would work the best for the analogy. We have a local controversy over dog walkers who want to walk their dog off leash in a park where that is not permitted but everybody ignored the signs v. a lizard owner who wants to walk her three-foot lizard on leash without worrying about dogs although the same park permits only dogs. Everybody's got a loophole.

Edited August 20, 2010 by mulvaney

[hoosier guy]

"Everybody's got a loophole."

 

Truer words were never spoken.

[+Dragery]

I've always been one to exploit loopholes:

 

 

Pfft, it didn't say anything about NO Human Flagging.

[+roziecakes]

That's the best picture I've ever seen!