Darn that private security!

[+drain13]

hey dragery, good job with the trolling hope your hides are as good... 909 is a short drive away

[+mountainman38]

erp derp

 

 

Well if nothing else at least I know I can count on Mountainman to stand up with me against this security guard who abused his power by harassing me when I wasn't even on the property he was being paid to protect (well, the 2nd time around at least LOL)

Not sure that's EXACTLY right....

 

However, if you have permission to place a cache, a security guard is overstepping his (minimal) authority by harassing you when you go to place it.

 

If you go to place it outside normal business hours, maybe taking along something like a signed note from the property owner on company letterhead would be a good idea -- that should set his fears at rest.

 

Then again, explaining exactly what you're doing whilst intoxicated may be a higher mountain than you want to climb.

[+narcissa]

"Stealth Required" is usually a euphemism for "there really ought not to be a cache here."

 

While OP's cache sounds like a terrible concept, I find your response to be very provincial, and even insulting to cache owners who hide caches in popular parks, with tremendous views. I bring you here for the view. Tour buses also bring people here for the views. Wedding parties love to have their pictures taken here! "Stealth Required" Yup! It's best if you use stealth. And, by all means enjoy the view! But, to say what you said, is very insulting, and shows no comprehension of the real world.

 

There's a reason the sentence says "usually." Of course there are good caches in high-muggle areas.

 

Usually. A good deal of the time, but not always. Usually.

[+Snoogans]

erp derp

 

 

Well if nothing else at least I know I can count on Mountainman to stand up with me against this security guard who abused his power by harassing me when I wasn't even on the property he was being paid to protect (well, the 2nd time around at least LOL)

 

I am a middle management corporate stooge for a really B-B-BIG company owned by a foreign gubmint. I and the the rest of my team run a high speed, in-house, corporate security unit. Not your average security guards. I have been in the security game for 23 years all at the same job.

 

I don't claim to know California property laws, but I believe you are mistaken. In Texas property includes parking lots, but excludes public right of ways like perimeter sidewalks. Once you step off the sidewalk, believe it or not, a security officer legally has more power to search and seize than a cop on private property. However most do not exercise that power until they have DVR evidence to back themselves up in court if need be.

 

Parking lots where the public is welcomed can be open game for geocaching when it comes to checking the adequate permission box, but I don't see an abuse of power here. I do see a bit of an entitlement mentality on your part though. You actually owed the property representative an explanation of your activity.

 

As for the ugh Blart stuff. Watching that movie was painful for me. The producers of that movie got too much right. Failed cops make the worst kind of security officers (ex-cops are a different story) and I so identified with the supervisor that wanted him to chill out. I have fired a dozen Blart types in just the past few years. They do not fit the corporate environment. Give me a motivated oorah (ex-Marine) or hooah (ex-Army) any day. My guess is your mall cop was an oorah from the M.O. Those guys are ON the job!

[+Castle Mischief]

This may be the most irresponsible, dimwitted, misguided thing I've ever seen on this forum*.

 

*Note: I'm attacking the idea, not the person. For all I know, Dragery may be a prince among men and deserving a Nobel Prize. Even geniuses sometimes do really stupid stuff.

 

It's okay. Even I agree with you.

[Andronicus]

I make no attempts to be stealthy, I just walk up to GZ and start searching. If somebody sees me retrieving and removing the cache, it's not my problem -- it's the COs problem for putting it somewhere inappropriate. In these terrorism-crazed times, the LAST thing I want to do is to act "stealthy" or "sneaky" while removing/replacing a small container in a public place. If a cop pulls up while I'm searching, I keep searching until he walks up to me an addresses me. I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal, however, if I'm acting "sneaky" or "stealthy", than it sure looks like I'm doing something wrong or illegal which is why I refuse to do it.

 

Well I think that you are also missguided. Although you should not have to avoid LEO when caching, it is realy your job to not draw muggle attention to a cache. If you don't think you can, then don't look for it. But, I will aggree that your technique is often the best for not attrachting attention. And your statments about the cops are totaly correct, don't want to appear sneaky.

 

Statments like "It is the COs problem" make you sound like an ignorant jerk.

 

You can call me any name you like, however, there is an implicit relationship between hider and finder. My responsibility as a finder is to return the cache as I found it, and report any problems with the cache (log wet, cache broken, etc). My responsibility as a hider is to ensure that the place I've selected for the hide is environmentally sensitive, has the permission of the land owner, and is likely to remain in place on a long-term basis. The onus is on the hider to hide in an appropriate location. If I need to use a cloak-and-dagger routine to keep the cache from being muggled, it's A BAD HIDE. I will not use stealth, period, ever, and if my lack of stealth causes a cache to go missing, it should be an indication to the cache owner that THIS IS NOT A GOOD SPOT FOR A HIDE.

 

IMO, Geocaching is a totally legit and family friendly activity, and encouraging people to be stealthy undermines the sport by setting people up to act in a way that may lead to a negative interaction with law enforcement or the public, who are likely to get the understanding that caching is fundamentally based in trespassing. My not being stealthy SPECIFICALLY helps to weed out those caches that have no business being there in the first place. Not to mention, looking like you belong there is usually better cover than trying to apply stealth!

Please note that I did not call you any name(s). I don't know you, so that would have been rude of me if I had.

 

I dissagree with you compleatly. I think that the "implicit relationship between hider and finder" includes the finder taking reasonable precautions to avoid drawing unwanted attention to a cache. Again, your find style sounds like it often will acomplish this.

 

If I need to use a cloak-and-dagger routine to keep the cache from being muggled, it's A BAD HIDE

That may be true some of the time, but often, it is more likely that it is hiden in a style you don't like.

Hide you don't like ≠ Bad Hide

As for cloak-and-dagger, no one has suggested crawling around, or hidding behind garbage binds. As others have mentioned, geocaching stealth is usualy just trying to blend it with others while searching, or waiting until muggles have moved on.

[+Dragery]

You actually owed the property representative an explanation of your activity.

 

 

The cache runs near the border of 2 parking lots, on the left, is a Rite Aid, whom I had the permission from to place the cache behind their store. 10 feet west, and over a 3 foot block wall divides the office building in question. The first time I drove through I was on the security guards turf (My wife missed the turn for the right parking lot, since she was driving ) The second time around around 45 minutes later we parked in the Rite Aid parking lot side, and before I even opened the door of our car, he came running out of the office building literally yelling at me asking what I was doing. It caught me off guard how serious this guy was being when I wasn't even on his turf.

Granted he may have been suspicious of the fact that I accidentally drove through it earlier, he could have just kicked back and drank some coffee and observed instead of pulling a John Wayne and come out yelling.

 

To help visualize my story, I've created a little drawling:

 

Yeah in my initial post I said it was IN the office building parking lot, I was wrong, the location of the cache is 100% on Rite Aids side. I was just going to park in the office parking lot to make it quicker to walk up and place it.

 

As for the trolling comment, no, I'm not *that* pathetic. I thought I was the one being trolled here after a while.

 

And it's not a bad hide by any means the 3 who found it so far enjoyed it (well, 2 were about to DNF it when the 3rd pulled up and they searched again). 2 of them called to thank me for the hide. This cache isn't for those who despise urban micros, or 'stealth required' hides. By all means, don't look for it, and try not to judge those who place and/or look for them!

Edited August 6, 2010 by Dragery

[+Snoogans]

You actually owed the property representative an explanation of your activity.

 

 

The cache runs near the border of 2 parking lots, on the left, is a Rite Aid, whom I had the permission from to place the cache behind their store. 10 feet west, and over a 3 foot block wall divides the office building in question. The first time I drove through I was on the security guards turf (My wife missed the turn for the right parking lot, since she was driving ) The second time around around 45 minutes later we parked in the Rite Aid parking lot side, and before I even opened the door of our car, he came running out of the office building literally yelling at me asking what I was doing. It caught me off guard how serious this guy was being when I wasn't even on his turf.

Granted he may have been suspicious of the fact that I accidentally drove through it earlier, he could have just kicked back and drank some coffee and observed instead of pulling a John Wayne and come out yelling.

 

To help visualize my story, I've created a little drawling:

 

Yeah in my initial post I said it was IN the office building parking lot, I was wrong, the location of the cache is 100% on Rite Aids side. I was just going to park in the office parking lot to make it quicker to walk up and place it.

 

Again, you mayyyy be mistaken.

 

What you're showing us is known as a pad site. The individual businesses may not actually own the land they are on regardless of how it is divided up.

 

Exterior security is the land owner's responsibility and liability. Security would be there as property representative for the entire site to report on much more than crime and suspicious activity.

[+Dragery]

For the sake of people who may be in my area I didn't specify the exact location. Here it goes, it's actually ON a structure attached to the Rite Aid Building. It's not in the divider, or in the parking lot, there's a wheel chair ramp that goes up to Rite Aids rear entrance, and it's accessed from that.

[+roziecakes]

 

Well if nothing else at least I know I can count on Mountainman to stand up with me against this security guard who abused his power by harassing me when I wasn't even on the property he was being paid to protect (well, the 2nd time around at least LOL)

 

A couple of things.

 

1) If you were mocking the security and obviously behaving drunk in public he didn't abuse his power. As far as I know, security guards no matter who they are working for are mandated reporters (Snoogans can correct me if I'm wrong), and if someone is drunk in public and doing something suspicious he would have to check it out, and if it were bad enough; he may have to report it to LE.

 

He probably yelled at you because you were mocking him and repeating his questions over and over each time he said something. That would piss me off as well. I'm not sure if I would yell at someone, but what did you expect?

 

2) Some security guards are hired for more than one business, sometimes by the whole block, shopping center, or a couple of blocks. When I worked for a casino, we had our own security guards, but there were also security guards hired by the town that would patrol the parking lots of several different casinos. They weren't city workers, they were a private company hired by the city.

 

So take that into consideration, he may actually HAVE been the security guard for that lot as well.

 

I'm not attacking you, just giving you a few more things to think about.

[+Dragery]

 

Well if nothing else at least I know I can count on Mountainman to stand up with me against this security guard who abused his power by harassing me when I wasn't even on the property he was being paid to protect (well, the 2nd time around at least LOL)

 

A couple of things.

 

1) If you were mocking the security and obviously behaving drunk in public he didn't abuse his power. As far as I know, security guards no matter who they are working for are mandated reporters (Snoogans can correct me if I'm wrong), and if someone is drunk in public and doing something suspicious he would have to check it out, and if it were bad enough; he may have to report it to LE.

 

He probably yelled at you because you were mocking him and repeating his questions over and over each time he said something. That would piss me off as well. I'm not sure if I would yell at someone, but what did you expect?

 

2) Some security guards are hired for more than one business, sometimes by the whole block, shopping center, or a couple of blocks. When I worked for a casino, we had our own security guards, but there were also security guards hired by the town that would patrol the parking lots of several different casinos. They weren't city workers, they were a private company hired by the city.

 

So take that into consideration, he may actually HAVE been the security guard for that lot as well.

 

I'm not attacking you, just giving you a few more things to think about.

 

He came out yelling at me before I even opened the door to my car, hell, we'd only been parked there for no more than 5 seconds when he came literally jogging out from his building. He never saw me drunk. AS a result, I mocked him for being so over zealous. Was it bad judgement on my part? Yes... Do I realize that? Yes.. Do I STILL feel that the guy was being a bit on the ridiculous side? Ohhh yeah.

 

Edit to add, he was not the guard for both security lots, he was inside the building when we drove up. In addition my wife just reminded me we know the security guard for the Rite Aid area He always is nice to us and our daughter when we walk by lol.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Dragery

[MisterEFQ]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

[+Dragery]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

No kidding huh? I feel like I'm on trial for telling a drunken story.. Hopefully I never have any run ins with some of these people at a meet in greet. That'd be the most boring event ever, someone would tell a story and people would just stare at them. Like a dumbfounded Simon Cowell

Edited August 6, 2010 by Dragery

[knowschad]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

What exactly do you mean by "lesson"?

 

les·son play_w2("L0128400") (lsn)n.1. Something to be learned: lessons from observing nature.2. a. A period of instruction; a class.b. An assignment or exercise in which something is to be learned.c. The act or an instance of instructing; teaching.3. a. An experience, example, or observation that imparts beneficial new knowledge or wisdom.b. The knowledge or wisdom so acquired.4. A rebuke or reprimand.5. often Lesson A reading from the Bible or other sacred text as part of a religious service.tr.v. les·soned, les·son·ing, les·sons 1. To teach a lesson to; instruct.2. To rebuke or reprimand.

[MisterEFQ]

What?

[Andronicus]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

What exactly do you mean by "lesson"?

 

les·son play_w2("L0128400") (lsn)n.1. Something to be learned: lessons from observing nature.2. a. A period of instruction; a class.b. An assignment or exercise in which something is to be learned.c. The act or an instance of instructing; teaching.3. a. An experience, example, or observation that imparts beneficial new knowledge or wisdom.b. The knowledge or wisdom so acquired.4. A rebuke or reprimand.5. often Lesson A reading from the Bible or other sacred text as part of a religious service.tr.v. les·soned, les·son·ing, les·sons 1. To teach a lesson to; instruct.2. To rebuke or reprimand.

Too funny!!

[+Snoogans]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

No kidding huh? I feel like I'm on trial for telling a drunken story.. Hopefully I never have any run ins with some of these people at a meet in greet. That'd be the most boring event ever, someone would tell a story and people would just stare at them. Like a dumbfounded Simon Cowell

 

Nah. Most event goers from these forums leave the negative stuff from the forums behind.

 

I once gave away 13,000+ caches at an event against popular gloom and doom opinion here.

 

They (more than 1,000) were hidden allll over the world. Are still being hidden to this day 4 years later in fact.

 

When I posted the progress of my "little" project, I was roasted alive because 12,500 of the caches were film cans. 300+ were regular to large caches, but that fact was conveniently stepped over. You would have thunkt that I was handing out loaded guns to small chinlren or sumthin'. My favorite post was from a guy that claimed, in all seriousness, that I had killed the spirit of geocaching in his local geocaching continuum. He claimed that good hiders whose hides he had previously enjoyed that had participated in my project started putting out "bad caches" and he put the blame on me. To this day that is my favorite post in these forums. I already killed Santa and for my next trick, I'll take out the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairey with one blow. That's how I roll.

 

I've met quite a few of the players in my negative encounters here. I count many among my personal friends. I always learn more from folks that disagree with me than from those that do.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Snoogans

[+cw1710]

It is always fun to harass security guards. A lot of them take there job way too seriously.

 

On the other hand, I am a police officer and I get off at midnight. This is about the time our reviewer likes to drop caches most of the time. I met someone one night right as I got off to grab an FTF and as we were parked we spotted a very familiar FTF chaser that had just parked (this was the dead end of a neighborhood) so I walked up with the light shining and sternly asked "What are you doing out here?" and could hardly keep from laughing while he (very nervously) explained geocaching to me. Then I laughed and said I know, now lets go find it and he realized who I was.

So you used your position as an officer of the law, someone that we should be able to look to for protection from harassment, as a means of harassing someone for your amusement?! Not cool.

 

I've seen people post this type of story before, and it seems to me that any cop (or person in any position of authority) who uses that position to harass someone for their amusement, needs to find a new line of work.

 

I'll try to extend the benefit of the doubt to you, and hope that you hadn't thought of it this way, but that's exactly how your actions come across.

 

The bolded part states that he knows me. He just didnt realize it. Playing a joke on a friend is hardly harassment.

[+roziecakes]

He came out yelling at me before I even opened the door to my car, hell, we'd only been parked there for no more than 5 seconds when he came literally jogging out from his building. He never saw me drunk. AS a result, I mocked him for being so over zealous. Was it bad judgement on my part? Yes... Do I realize that? Yes.. Do I STILL feel that the guy was being a bit on the ridiculous side? Ohhh yeah.

 

Edit to add, he was not the guard for both security lots, he was inside the building when we drove up. In addition my wife just reminded me we know the security guard for the Rite Aid area He always is nice to us and our daughter when we walk by lol.

 

I see, thanks for clarifying. I do wish you the best in placing your cache. I still think it's a good idea to try to get along with the security guards, but if you feel that you've got a good enough relationship with the guard in the lot where you're placing the cache, then go for it.

[+Don_J]

 

I once gave away 13,000+ caches at an event against popular gloom and doom opinion here.

 

They (more than 1,000) were hidden allll over the world. Are still being hidden to this day 4 years later in fact.

 

 

I got a hold of one of them. Keeping in line with the "Small World Theory", I hid it 311' from my side door.

[+drfred]

Security guards come and go; if they get any briefing on the property at all it isn't likely to cover that there is a geocache on the property.

 

International Park Cache for instance, GCHHB7, has the permission of the realty company and building management, has been been found 132 times since January 1 2004, and security still runs off cachers now and then because they don't know it's there!

 

The logs, especially mid-2004, are a hoot - having permission made dodging security (whom we generically called "Lewis the Security Guard" (imagine Barney Fife) into a bit of a game.

 

I was going to make a similar point. I have had a couple of caches hidden at a local mall for years. Management knows the caches and is fine with them. Every 6 months or so I get a string of logs about people getting run off by security - usually because it is a new set of guards that don't know about the cache.

 

The biggest problem I find is that people TRY to "act stealthy" which just gets the security guards' suspicions up. If a guard comes up to me I'll tell them what I'm doing and usually tell them that their manager knows about it (LOL...99% of the time these days no one ever asked permission but this seems to mollify them).

[+drfred]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

 

This thread has been particularly toxic, and that is saying a lot. Just a few choice words from this topic:

irresponsible

dimwitted

lie

misguided

stupid

liar

ignorant jerk

dumb

poor strategy

shows a lack of respect

ill-advised

terrible concept

 

And those words don't even get close to capturing the sneering condescension of most of the posters, whether responding to the OP or other posters.

 

Now the GC forums don't get anywhere as nasty as many on the web, but we are geocachers - not petty, whiny, socially inept computer geeks sitting in parents' basements in PJs eating twinkies and wondering what it would be like to meet someone really, honestly, for true in person - are we? ahem? anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

[+mountainman38]

This thread has taught me a lesson. Dont post silly stories on this site because it will blow up like this thread. People will over analysis every sentence, and blow things out of proportion.

 

This thread has been particularly toxic, and that is saying a lot. Just a few choice words from this topic:

irresponsible

dimwitted

lie

misguided

stupid

liar

ignorant jerk

dumb

poor strategy

shows a lack of respect

ill-advised

terrible concept

 

And those words don't even get close to capturing the sneering condescension of most of the posters, whether responding to the OP or other posters.

 

Now the GC forums don't get anywhere as nasty as many on the web, but we are geocachers - not petty, whiny, socially inept computer geeks sitting in parents' basements in PJs eating twinkies and wondering what it would be like to meet someone really, honestly, for true in person - are we? ahem? anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

Generalize much?

[+drfred]

Sorry...that came off wrong - I was trying to make a point about the 4chan type crowd and say that we have much more to offer and are a great group in general. I hate to see our forums degrade into petty arguments.

Edited August 7, 2010 by drfred