Subversive Activities

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I was going to post this at the end of another thread but I thought it was too long and so should be a topic of it's own...

 

Serious question, I've heard it told by older members that at one time geocaching was an 'underground' game and there were less/no rules about SSSIs and such... I wonder at what point it began to emerge as this kind of 'respectable' hobby and got so institutionalised?

 

I say this because a number of underground and subversive hobbies/activities have never had this problem despite their widespread public knowledge, acceptance (or tolerance) and sometimes nuisance:

 

Skateboarding

Graffiti

Parkour

Freecycling

Bookcrossing

Guerilla Gardening

Freeganism

Squatting

Base Jumping

+ many more I can't think of right now...

 

OK maybe not all are mainstream, and not all are legal, but most are at least tolerated, if not admired and respected.

 

For participants who take place in the illegal activities, they may get arrested but this seems to be taken as an accepted risk for the activity.

 

Now for geocaching I think the worst punishment could be a fine from a council for littering, or a private prosecution for trespassing (if there was damage caused). But why isn't this taken as an accepted risk for individuals, rather than an overall effort to shape the game into a mould that the public and their government finds acceptable?

 

Geocaching obviously started out like these other activities but somewhere along the way it changed - does anyone know, or have a theory as to why?

 

Also I respectfully ask that people refrain from the cut n' paste answer that "it's more public now" - It just doesn't wash when compared against the other games that have gone public and yet still survived in their subversive form.

 

I also find it interesting that there's nothing stopping anyone from hiding something in a park and giving their friends clues and coordinates to go find it. After I started geocaching I was told a friend of a friend had been doing this for years - but just by himself, not through a website or organisation... and not with the blessing of the local authorities or government.

 

I'd like to see some discussion about this if possible... sorry if I accidentally stumbled over a dead horse.

[+agentmancuso]

There's nothing necessarily subversive about an activity because it happens without official sanction.

 

Nor is there anything necessarily subversive about causing a public nuisance, though admittedly a great many people seem to confuse the two.

 

I'm afraid "it's more public now" is the stock answer because it's, er, quite clearly the right one.

 

If you want caching without official approval, go Open Caching.

[+steve p]

I think every person would have a different definition of what makes something institutionalized. It's a spectrum. One person would think just one rule or norm makes an activity institutionalized. Another might think it takes dozens to become institutionalized.

 

I don't think "subversive" is the best term to define these by. "Underground," maybe.

 

By the way, what are Parkour and Freeganism?

[+paulbarratt]

Yes geocaching started out as a secret, underground hobby. That's why we call outsiders muggles.

 

However, it's grown so much in 10 years and we have such an impact on the envirionment that we needed to become more controlled, self-policing and more open about our activities to the authorities/land owners.

 

This is still a fun hobby that promotes confused glances from the passing muggles (i get a kick out of that) but it's impossible for us to hide like people did in the early years.

 

I say roll with it and try to be involved in growing the hobby. It's not as if we can stop new people discovering it and enjoying it too.

[+sTeamTraen]

Geocaching obviously started out like these other activities but somewhere along the way it changed - does anyone know, or have a theory as to why?

Any time I see the word "obviously" in this kind of argument, I like to stop and check exactly how "obvious" it is. In this case, I don't agree with either of the two premises which are separate by the word "but" in your post.

 

Geocaching (at least in Groundspeak's version) is, and more or less always has been, based on a very clear principle: the cache is there with permission. Thus, any stealth which may be required is solely to protect the "health" of the cache from muggles who might want to steal it. Of course, such stealth can be great fun, and give you a little frisson at the thought that you could be doing something slightly naughty, but generally, you aren't.

 

If anything, with the increase in urban micros and nanos, I find myself using more stealth today than I did six years ago. I also note that the conflation of geocaching and "security issues" is a phenomenon which seems to be increasing, rather than geocaching becoming seen as being as "mainstream" as walking the dog in the park (you could strap quite a lot of explosives under a dog's coat).

 

PS: I don't think most people would regard "Graffiti" as a "subversive hobby". "Criminal damage" is what they generally call it when they book you in, I believe.

[+L8HNB]

Mmmm, I was pondering the similarities between caching and CB in the early 80's the other day. CB was great fun (I'm told ) and it effectively forced the then government to legalise it. It then became somewhat mundane and almost went away.

 

Might caching go this way? There has been a huge increase in interest over the last couple of years but because it is going mainstream it may peak and then start to die away leaving a hardcore to carry on, or not as the case may-be, as CB did.

 

There is also a similarity between equipment. The old CB was AM, with sideband for those looking for distant contacts and could only be aquired by the few in the know. When CB became legal and rigs were plentiful, and you didn't need to take your "twig" down before it got light it became run of the mill, it didn't provide much of a challenge. GPS technology in the beginning was not readily available, then yellow etrex or similar became available and then hand held PC's with MemoryMap, and now the current spate of readily available technology all make it so easy to find the average cache.

 

Will we see the current government take caching on board and direct it's various departments to encourage it big time? Only time will tell. The London Parks scenario dosen't bode well, but there are always hurdles to over come. If it's a good thing that caching becomes mainstream, or otherwise, remains to be seen - one thing for sure is that it will evolve in a way that is acceptable to some and not to others.

 

We shall see.

 

H

[+drsolly]

We need to start a political party, run for local councils, put up candidates in general elections. There should be a Ministry of Geocaching, subsidies for ammo boxes, licences for geocachers and cheaper public transport for registered cachers.

 

Local tourist boards should have a geocaching liaison executive, charged with encouraging geocaching in their area, including grants for people to place additional caches which would attract extra tourists to the area.

 

All this could be paid for by levying a tax on muggles, and it should be made a criminal offence to destroy a cache. Local police officers should be made aware of caches in their area, and be prepared to help baffled cachers with extra clues. Road sweepers should be made aware of ground-based caches in their area, so they can avoid them. Postmen should be encouraged to discard even more of those highly useful red rubber bands.

 

Health and safety officers should patrol footpths in their area, cutting back brambles and nettles, and low hanging branches that could cause possibly painful bumps on the head. Bridleways should have cycle lanes where horses aren't permitted, thus preserving the quality of the track. Horse riders should be required to remove what horses often leave behind.

 

Footbridges along tracks should be fitted with a special shelf underneath, large enough to take an ammo can. Street lamps should be given skirts, just large enought to hide a 35mm. All road signs should have a spring clip attached behind them, suitable for gripping a micro.

 

Litter-pickers deployed along roads and lanes should have as an additional task, the emplacement of a quota of caches per day, thus giving reality to the dream of CITO. Medals should be awarded for significant milestones, with a telegram from the Queen for achievement of some suitably large number.

 

Yes. We need to start a political party.

Edited August 4, 2010 by drsolly

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

There's nothing necessarily subversive about an activity because it happens without official sanction.

 

Nor is there anything necessarily subversive about causing a public nuisance, though admittedly a great many people seem to confuse the two.

 

I'm afraid "it's more public now" is the stock answer because it's, er, quite clearly the right one.

 

If you want caching without official approval, go Open Caching.

 

I don't think the stock answer is the right answer - I think that's a cover for institutionalisation.

 

If I wanted to cache without official approval I'd avoid any and all such organisations - I'd just go put one out and give coordinates to friends - or maybe post on my blog - and therefore I would be completely outside of any guidelines or permissions. It's then down to the state to decide if I should be ignored as I'm playing a game, if I should be fined for dropping litter, arrested under the terrorism act or being a public nuisance.

 

I think every person would have a different definition of what makes something institutionalized. It's a spectrum. One person would think just one rule or norm makes an activity institutionalized. Another might think it takes dozens to become institutionalized.

 

I don't think "subversive" is the best term to define these by. "Underground," maybe.

 

By the way, what are Parkour and Freeganism?

 

Yes I think subversive was too strong a word to use for geocaching - though some of the activities above could be considered such.

 

Freeganism and Parkour I'd say google is your friend, but the former is raiding rubbish for free food, Parkour is traversing urban street furniture and landscape using a variety of acrobatics and physical movements.

 

L8HNB - Thanks for the example, this is pretty much in line with what I'm thinking - similar to how the pirate radio stations were co-opted.

sTeamTraen - I understand that most caches are published with 'adequate' permission - which in most cases is assumed by the reviewer. You could say that freegans also assume permission to raid garbage for food, freecyclers assume permission to give away things they own (which may have regulations or licenses), Bookcrossers assume permission to leave books in public places, guerella gardners assume permission to plant on public property. PS. What you call criminal damage, others call expensive works of art vis-à-vis Banksy.

 

I recently read The Pirate's Dilemma which has influenced my thinking in this area. It discusses a lot of underground culture and it's influences on society. What's interesting is the same thing happened to Hollywood - which was founded on piracy, yet now it has created large media conglomerates who reach across the globe in an effort to stomp it out.

 

Clearly some underground cultures retain something of the culture that created them, whereas others sometimes take on the face of their enemy. I wonder how geocaching will evolve in this respect?

Edited August 4, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[The Hearse]

Geocaching has never been subversive in the way you suggest. The activity has changed out of all recognition from how it started out when there were relatively few caches presenting much more of a challenge than today each requiring an element of planning before you set out. Since then the number of caches have multiplied in a logarithmic curve and so have the number of geocachers and the type of person that geocaches. We have seen trails introduced and establish themselves as the core of the activity. In my view, there are two causes for controls being placed on geocaching. First from security when the authorities rightly found that people looking for hidden containers close to sensitive establishments caused the unnecessary deployment of security officials. Second, the shear numbers of people meant that landowners began to object and would not tolerate caches when they once did.

[+Pharisee]

I wonder at what point it began to emerge as this kind of 'respectable' hobby and got so institutionalised?

 

The moment some fool decided it would be a 'good idea' to get involved with a certain BBC TV program back in 2003 (I think that was the year) and others followed suit with radio and newspaper interviews. It all went downhill from there, I'm afraid.

 

I say this because a number of underground and subversive hobbies/activities have never had this problem despite their widespread public knowledge, acceptance (or tolerance) and sometimes nuisance:

 

Skateboarding

Graffiti

Parkour

Freecycling

Bookcrossing

Guerilla Gardening

Freeganism

Squatting

Base Jumping

+ many more I can't think of right now...

 

OK maybe not all are mainstream, and not all are legal, but most are at least tolerated, if not admired and respected.

 

I don't think any of your examples can be realistically regarded as 'family orientated' in the same way that geocaching has become. I can't see my ol' granny trying out pakour or freecycling but she may well have tried geocaching (had she not popped her clogs 30 odd years ago). The reason it took off exponentially was, I suspect, that it was something that could be enjoyed(?) by family groups, irrespective of number, age, geographic location, financial status or pretty much any other restraint.

[+Original A1]

Why should activities be subversive and/or illegal? When it's being marketed as fun for all the family, surely there is a responsibility to set an example, in the same way that the offshoot of CITO hopefully sets an example to those who benefit that perhaps their patch of land would in turn benefit from being kept clean?

 

Maybe it's not trendy to keep above the law, but I for one am grateful that there is a policing of what we do, however OTT it might appear to be at times.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Original A1

[+sTeamTraen]

What you call criminal damage, others call expensive works of art vis-à-vis Banksy.

Yes, one graffiti artist has managed to get to the point where his graffiti generates enough publicity to increase the price of his more "portable" works, but the graffiti itself cannot be sold, and I note that he still chooses to remain anonymous.

 

And while his art is pretty cool, I would hope that nobody thinks that this legitimises writing "ACAB" or "MUFC" on any convenient phone box, wall, or private home, no matter how many colours are used in the pretty 3-dimensional letters. It's pretty easy to admire Robin Hood-type characters such as Banksy until you discover that one of them has arbitrarily determined that you are, in his world, one of the "rich", not one of the "poor", or that his activities encourage thousands of less-talented individuals to set themselves up as Robin Hoods although they actually have more in common with Dillinger.

 

Of your original list of 9 activities, I would sat that Freecycling and Bookcrossing are pretty much like Geocaching ("mostly harmless"), Skateboarding / Parkour / Base Jumping are not intrinsically anti-social if done in the right places, Freeganism is a lifestyle choice (which, like all lifestyle choices, you can make because you actually believe in it or because you want to appear cleverer than other people), Guerilla Gardening and Squatting are somewhere between "politics" and "economics", and Graffiti is just plain vandalism (without wishing to get too Daily Mail-ish about it).

 

Of the 10 (your 9 plus Geocaching), I'd say that Geocaching, along with Bookcrossing, are, despite appearances, the least "subversive". Having said that, I'm pretty boring, and I don't think that being a geocacher changes that, but it is "slightly cool" to discover that a lot of people think that what I do is "very cool" and, indeed, subversive.

Edited August 5, 2010 by sTeamTraen

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Ok I think I already retracted on the "subversive" part - it's the wrong word.

 

sTeamTraen: With regards to graffitti, it is more like geocaching than you care to realise. Banksy was just an 'obvious' example off the top of my mind that most people are familiar with - there are many more examples but as I don't think you would care anyhow. You've made your level of cultural understanding clear so there's no point debating further.

 

I thank Pharisee and The Hearse for providing some alternate origins. Yes I think the publicity has a part to play, but still, there seems to be a point where an organised underground activity has to decide if they're going to continue to do it as they always have (disregard authority) or to step in line (agree to pay for licenses, not conduct activity in certain places etc).

 

It appears to me that geocaching 'stepped in line', I am really just attempting to find out the influences and reasons behind that - being publicly known about does not cause base jumpers or graffitti artists to self police and ensure it's only done in legitimate places - they seem to just carry on as is. Geocaching is far less subversive/illegal than graffitti or basejumping - yet it makes more of an effort to become legitimate, which doesn't seem logical to me - but maybe someone can explain that?

[+agentmancuso]

I think subversive was too strong a word to use for geocaching

 

Not too strong a word, just entirely the wrong word. Geocaching is in no way connected with undermining the authority of the state. It never has been and never will be.

 

None of the other activities you mention are in any way subversive either. They are either entirely harmless, such as bookcrossing, or games for children, such as skateboarding, or a public expression of frustrated illiteracy, such as graffiti.

Edited August 5, 2010 by agentmancuso

[+Pharisee]

It appears to me that geocaching 'stepped in line', I am really just attempting to find out the influences and reasons behind that - being publicly known about does not cause base jumpers or graffitti artists to self police and ensure it's only done in legitimate places - they seem to just carry on as is. Geocaching is far less subversive/illegal than graffitti or basejumping - yet it makes more of an effort to become legitimate, which doesn't seem logical to me - but maybe someone can explain that?

I suspect it was because Groundspeak's Geocaching.com became the 'default' cache listing website. Sure... you can go out and hide a box anywhere you want to and tell your mates about it but if you want it to be known to a wider audience then it needs to be listed on the internet. I know there are other cache listing sites, I have a cache listed on one of them (but it's only ever been found once). However, the vast majority of UK geocachers only use geocaching.com

To get a cache listed on that site, it has to conform to what the ruling body within Groundspeak considers a suitable geocache. Like it or not, that's the way we have to play. If your new cache doesn't conform, it doesn't get listed... simples. Over the 10 years that geocaching has been played to Groundspeak's 'guidelines', those guidelines changed, they have evolved. They've been influenced by the way geocaching has been received by various 'authoritative bodies', both here and in the USA. The guidelines have been changed and modified to make geocaching acceptable to those who sometimes have only a sketchy knowledge of exactly what it is but their approval is required. I use the term 'guidelines' but although that's what they're called, they are, in fact 'rules' because if your cache doesn't comply.. to the letter... your cache doesn't get published. That's not a criticism, it's just the way it is and we accept it if we want to play with Groundspeak's ball.

I don't believe there was a defining moment when we 'stepped into line', as you put it. It just the way that geocaching has evolved. It will probably go on evolving and the guidelines will change again and again.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Pharisee

[+insx]

How exactly is Freecycle subversive? It's a mailing list where people give things away!

[Deceangi]

I wonder at what point it began to emerge as this kind of 'respectable' hobby and got so institutionalised?

 

The moment some fool decided it would be a 'good idea' to get involved with a certain BBC TV program back in 2003 (I think that was the year) and others followed suit with radio and newspaper interviews. It all went downhill from there, I'm afraid.

 

John your out by about 12 months . A Nationally Distributed Computer Magazine featured GPS Navigation in August 2002, A sub article to the Main article was about Geocaching, and featured on of the UK's Approvers (as Reviewers were called at that time) Moss Trooper.

 

That's how I and several others I've meet, got into the Hobby.

 

As for Self Policing, that has been in reaction to events related to the hobby. The banning of a Container within 150ft of Railway Tracks in the US. Came about after a US geocacher was arrested for Trespassing on the Railway Tract, which extends 150ft either side of the tracks. That person ended up in court.

 

Here in the UK, the New Forest Officials, uplifted 17 or 18 Geocaches on their land without their permission. It was only about half way through negotiations with them, that those containers we handed back. Those negotiations took over 2 years to complete. And are Reviewed and Renewed on a yearly basis.

 

It took nearly eight years to get a National Agreement with the National Trust HQ, up to that point. It was a decision made at a local level. Now those local Managers have to find a suitable alternative location, if the original chosen location is not suitable for a Geocache.

 

There are many more issues which have affected the hobby in the UK, resulting in specific Self Policing measures being put into place.

 

Putting a restriction in place is not something the UK Reviewers wish to do at any time. Partly because it increases what is a ever hugly increasing workload. Secondly as Geocachers ourselves, we do not wish to see more restrictions. But at the end of the day, we have to act in what we believe is the best interest of this hobby taking pace in the UK. Not just for now, but for the long term future of the hobby.

 

Either we Self Police, or at some unknown point in the future. We end up having legislation regulating our hobby imposed on us.So we pick the lesser of 2 evils.

 

Here in North Wales, Skateboarding/In Line Skating has been catered for by the Authorities with Skate Parks being erected by them. Even my small village now has a skate park. and the surrounding towns all have at least one skate park.

 

Geocaching despite the huge increase in the numbers of members. Will always be a geeky niche hobby. with a very small number of the population taking part. The main difference being that a larger number of the population being aware of Geocaching.

 

Deci

[+steve p]

Another factor to consider is that in the early years of geocaching the technology was not yet widespread, GPS units were more expensive, and fewer people had GPSr units. Therefore the activity could have been considered "underground." As GPS technology became cheaper and more people acquired the units, geocaching became accessible to more people and the hobby took off.

 

Early adapters to a product, or to a certain technology, will always be involved in an underground sort of way. Similar to the CB radio example in other posts.

 

Look at snowboarding. When it started few people had the boards, and some ski areas did not allow them. I worked at a large New England ski area in the '80s and I recall management discussions about whether snowboards should be allowed or not. Snowboarding was kind of underground. Then board manufacturing improved, the sport became more popular, ski areas began allowing them, and it became mainstream.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Ok I think I already retracted on the "subversive" part - it's the wrong word.

<snip>

I think subversive was too strong a word to use for geocaching

 

Not too strong a word, just entirely the wrong word. Geocaching is in no way connected with undermining the authority of the state. It never has been and never will be.

 

Yep thanks, see above!

 

None of the other activities you mention are in any way subversive either. They are either entirely harmless, such as bookcrossing, or games for children, such as skateboarding, or a public expression of frustrated illiteracy, such as graffiti.

 

Some could be considered but in general I agree with your sentiment.

 

Please note everyone I didn't include a full list of all underground activities in the UK, just ones that sprung to mind, there is a lot going on that we're not discussing here.

 

How exactly is Freecycle subversive? It's a mailing list where people give things away!

 

It's not but once again I will state ^^ above I mentioned I used the wrong word.

 

 

<snip>

 

 

Thanks for the informative backstory - it's making sense now, perhaps not one big decision to cross over to the other side, but lots of small decisions based on bad PR.

 

Look at snowboarding. When it started few people had the boards, and some ski areas did not allow them. I worked at a large New England ski area in the '80s and I recall management discussions about whether snowboards should be allowed or not. Snowboarding was kind of underground. Then board manufacturing improved, the sport became more popular, ski areas began allowing them, and it became mainstream.

 

Yes another good example - I thought about this but didn't include it as I thought it's gone too mainstream now. I suppose this is one case where mainstreaming has benefited everyone on the slopes, but I wonder - like other underground movements if this came about because some nuisances or outlaws pushed the issue - they did it anyway.

 

Imagine if the pioneers of snowboarding.... and, well..... just about anything, sat around waiting for permission. I wonder if we'd ever see half the interesting tech and fun activities we see these days?

 

illegal skating => skate parks

illegal snowboarding => snowboarding acceptance

illegal grafitti => art exhibitions and fashion

illegal online piracy => iPods and iTunes

illegal pirate radio => radio channel choice

etc...

 

Not that I'm trying to draw a parellels between all illegal activities and becoming mainstream, but of the 'harmless' ones -the creative ones - it seems to be pushing the boundaries and breaking the law leads to change in the law and culture.

Edited August 5, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[team tisri]

It appears to me that geocaching 'stepped in line', I am really just attempting to find out the influences and reasons behind that - being publicly known about does not cause base jumpers or graffitti artists to self police and ensure it's only done in legitimate places - they seem to just carry on as is. Geocaching is far less subversive/illegal than graffitti or basejumping - yet it makes more of an effort to become legitimate, which doesn't seem logical to me - but maybe someone can explain that?

 

Perhaps because you can solo climb and basejump without publishing to the world where and when you're planning on doing it?

 

If you want to hide a geocache and have people go and find it you have to publish its location along with some form of identification of who placed it. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be inclined to make a public proclamation that I'd done something illegal, where the evidence could be found, and put enough information about myself to enable Mr Plod to trace me and and pay me a visit.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

It appears to me that geocaching 'stepped in line', I am really just attempting to find out the influences and reasons behind that - being publicly known about does not cause base jumpers or graffitti artists to self police and ensure it's only done in legitimate places - they seem to just carry on as is. Geocaching is far less subversive/illegal than graffitti or basejumping - yet it makes more of an effort to become legitimate, which doesn't seem logical to me - but maybe someone can explain that?

 

Perhaps because you can solo climb and basejump without publishing to the world where and when you're planning on doing it?

 

If you want to hide a geocache and have people go and find it you have to publish its location along with some form of identification of who placed it. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be inclined to make a public proclamation that I'd done something illegal, where the evidence could be found, and put enough information about myself to enable Mr Plod to trace me and and pay me a visit.

 

Heh, good point.

[+sTeamTraen]

sTeamTraen: With regards to graffitti, it is more like geocaching than you care to realise. Banksy was just an 'obvious' example off the top of my mind that most people are familiar with - there are many more examples but as I don't think you would care anyhow. You've made your level of cultural understanding clear so there's no point debating further.

No no, please, I wish to learn. Please tell me of another way in which graffiti is like geocaching. Do graffiti artists also visit other locations to admire each other's graffiti? Is there some Web site where I can learn which interesting new graffiti works are in my area? Where can I attend a graffiti event? And is there some organisation which distinguishes "real" graffiti from four-letter-words hastily written on the wall in white, for which there's some other word with which I wasn't previously familiar?

 

I'm happy to bow down to your clear cultural superiority, but only if you're prepared to accept that said superiority creates a moral imperative to teach others. A sort of guerilla culture Hippocratic oath, if you will. After all, I'm sure that you wouldn't want anyone to draw the other logical conclusion from your post, which is that you were being gratuitously rude.

Edited August 6, 2010 by sTeamTraen

[+agentmancuso]

A sort of guerilla culture Hippocratic oath, if you will

[+Phil100]

An interesting discussion!

 

If Geocaching has become "mainstream" and/or "institutionalized" - both adjectives that have been used - I am surprised the the dreaded "Health and Safety" hasn't yet been mention!! Is it only a matter of time before a "Risk Assessment" needs to be submitted with a new cache for publication?!!!

[+keehotee]

 

No no, please, I wish to learn. Please tell me of another way in which graffiti is like geocaching. Do graffiti artists also visit other locations to admire each other's graffiti?

Yes, they do - and so do some non-graffitiing photographers.

Is there some Web site where I can learn which interesting new graffiti works are in my area?

Yes - there are several based in the UK.

Where can I attend a graffiti event?

Upfest run a few

And is there some organisation which distinguishes "real" graffiti from four-letter-words hastily written on the wall in white, for which there's some other word with which I wasn't previously familiar?

No organisation - but a few words (none of which could be used in this forum without moderation.. )

 

None of which defends the first post - but should answer some of your questions

Edited August 11, 2010 by keehotee

[+sTeamTraen]

Wow. Some great art there. I never knew. *humbled*

 

They seem to be turning over a few quid more than the price of a geocoin, too.

[+Happy Humphrey]

An interesting discussion!

 

If Geocaching has become "mainstream" and/or "institutionalized" - both adjectives that have been used - I am surprised the the dreaded "Health and Safety" hasn't yet been mention!! Is it only a matter of time before a "Risk Assessment" needs to be submitted with a new cache for publication?!!!

It's already happened (several times), although requested by the land manager rather than geocaching.com.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

An interesting discussion!

 

If Geocaching has become "mainstream" and/or "institutionalized" - both adjectives that have been used - I am surprised the the dreaded "Health and Safety" hasn't yet been mention!! Is it only a matter of time before a "Risk Assessment" needs to be submitted with a new cache for publication?!!!

It's already happened (several times), although requested by the land manager rather than geocaching.com.

 

So I heard that someone in the past once attempted to sue a CO, only to abandon the case... is this true?

 

No disrespect to the Yanks, but I thought that kind of thing would have happened over there first.

 

ETA: When I got permission for our second cache on Croxley Moor, I was given the ok as long as the tree was not likely to fall on someone....! But no Risk Assessment requested - phew.

Edited August 11, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+Jonovich]

I believe they tried to bring a case against a Clanger from near Bedford

 

J

[+drsolly]

An interesting discussion!

 

If Geocaching has become "mainstream" and/or "institutionalized" - both adjectives that have been used - I am surprised the the dreaded "Health and Safety" hasn't yet been mention!! Is it only a matter of time before a "Risk Assessment" needs to be submitted with a new cache for publication?!!!

It's already happened (several times), although requested by the land manager rather than geocaching.com.

 

So I heard that someone in the past once attempted to sue a CO, only to abandon the case... is this true?

 

No disrespect to the Yanks, but I thought that kind of thing would have happened over there first.

 

ETA: When I got permission for our second cache on Croxley Moor, I was given the ok as long as the tree was not likely to fall on someone....! But no Risk Assessment requested - phew.

 

I have done an assessment of the risks involved in doing a Risk Assessment, and have come to the conclusion that it's too risky.

[+sTeamTraen]

So I heard that someone in the past once attempted to sue a CO, only to abandon the case... is this true?

I think "threatened" is closer to the truth than "attempted". Not nice for the person on the receiving end, but from what I recall the seeker was some way from GZ and there was no conceivable way that his (non life-threatening) injuries were anyone's fault but his own.

No disrespect to the Yanks, but I thought that kind of thing would have happened over there first.

One of the reasons why Geocaching.com is still around is that one of the three partners in the company is a lawyer. The simple disclaimers and site ToU have been sufficient, over the years, to deter whoever might have wanted to sue Groundspeak.

 

There was a sad case not too long back where a US cacher, who'd only been in the game a few months, died when he fell off a high rock in a moment of inattention at GZ. The US forums were more or less expecting his widow to sue. Instead, she came to the forum less than a week after the incident, thanked everyone for their expressions of sympathy, said how much geocaching had already come to mean to her and her husband, and how it was just one of those things which could happen anywhere. All in all, a remarkable display of dignity.