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EVIL Ninjection
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Geodalf

+Geodalf

Posted
Posted

I have been slowly making a hole in a rock but it takes forever. Does anyone have some advice on making a hole in the bottom of a rock? Preferably fast?

 

Aside from a wee bit o dynamite, maybe someone who makes tombstones or does coring testing.

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buttaskotch

+buttaskotch

Posted
Posted

It all depends on the rock you are trying to drill. Kinda like the Moh's hardness scale we used in Geology 101. 1=Talc 10=Diamond.

Then you'll need to figure out what implement to use. Because depending on the hardness and cleavage if you are using the wrong implement you may shatter the rock altogether

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EVIL Ninjection

+EVIL Ninjection

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I can't believe no one has asked this yet.

 

Do you own this rock?

Yes, it was in my front yard for YEARS and it started to get in the way so instead of getting rid of it I am trying to make it into a geocache cover. And I finally figured out that it was Gneiss which has a hardness of 7 on Moh's Hardness scale... which explains why its so hard to cut through.

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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

I can't believe no one has asked this yet.

 

Do you own this rock?

Yes, it was in my front yard for YEARS and it started to get in the way so instead of getting rid of it I am trying to make it into a geocache cover. And I finally figured out that it was Gneiss which has a hardness of 7 on Moh's Hardness scale... which explains why its so hard to cut through.

Gneiss? LOL!!! Yeah, that's essentially granite! I forget who said it, but if you really want to get this done, I'd take it to a monument company. It will probably cost you a bit, though. Of course, if you insist on drilling it out yourself, it's going to cost you quite a few more bits before you're done. And probably a drill or two as well.
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EVIL Ninjection

+EVIL Ninjection

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I can't believe no one has asked this yet.

 

Do you own this rock?

Yes, it was in my front yard for YEARS and it started to get in the way so instead of getting rid of it I am trying to make it into a geocache cover. And I finally figured out that it was Gneiss which has a hardness of 7 on Moh's Hardness scale... which explains why its so hard to cut through.

Gneiss? LOL!!! Yeah, that's essentially granite! I forget who said it, but if you really want to get this done, I'd take it to a monument company. It will probably cost you a bit, though. Of course, if you insist on drilling it out yourself, it's going to cost you quite a few more bits before you're done. And probably a drill or two as well.

Yup, that's why I decided to stop. Although it was fun watching sparks fly off my chisel (which is probably why I continued to hammer for over an hour) I figure I have better ways to spend my time LOL. Out to find some geocaches.

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Chrysalides

+Chrysalides

Posted
Posted
I can't believe no one has asked this yet.

 

Do you own this rock?

How many times do we need to tell you this... you don't have to OWN the rock as long as you have the permission of the rock manager. Geesh! :laughing:

Why is it that no one ever asks the rock whether it would like to be drilled?

 

(sorry, I have nothing useful to contribute other than what is already here)

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Gitchee-Gummee

+Gitchee-Gummee

Posted
Posted

The definitive answer:

 

Gneiss is tough, not hard. That's your problem.

 

Take that hard (10) diamond, smack it with a hammer and it breaks.

Smack that semi-hard (6 - <7) gneiss and move your head, 'cuz the hammer is coming back at ya!

 

Now that you have smashed your wife's or girlfriends' diamond, gather up all the little tiny bits of it, pile them on the gneiss, add a little water and grind away. You got your hole with a rock around it!

 

That is how it's done, take it for granite. :laughing::shocked:

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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted
I can't believe no one has asked this yet.

 

Do you own this rock?

How many times do we need to tell you this... you don't have to OWN the rock as long as you have the permission of the rock manager. Geesh! :laughing:

Why is it that no one ever asks the rock whether it would like to be drilled?

 

(sorry, I have nothing useful to contribute other than what is already here)

I'd ask the rock if I were a gneiss guy. But I'm not.
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medoug

medoug

Posted
Posted

Eating away the rock with an acid might be the most effective way. I believe that's what a lot of monument engravers use. I'm not sure what type of acid would be most effective, but I know that you can buy muratic acid at most hardware/home supply stores. It is usually used to clean or etch cement, but I don't know how it'd do on gneiss.

 

If the area you want to remove on the rock is convex rounded, you will need to dam around the area with some type of non-reactive putty or clay to get the acid to pool in the desired area to get started until it starts to become concaved. You could be looking at a long time, but at least you'd avoid the physical labor.

 

medoug.

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medoug

medoug

Posted
Posted (edited)

I found this on the internet:

"Warning: There is one acid that will severely etch, pit and dull a polished granite surface. This acid is known as Hydrofluoric acid (HF) and is found in many rust removers. If you have experienced etching on granite surfaces, and you are using such a product, you may want to check the label and see if it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If it does, the granite may need to be repaired."

 

I know the information is for granite, but I also found out that gneiss is the same material, but not compacted quite as much (slightly more porous).

 

Other information said that the quartz in granite will be unaffected by acid, but the feldspar which holds the quartz crystals together will dissolve and turn to clay.

 

You might find that the concentration in the rust remover is too week. If so, you might need to go to a chemical supply store to get the concentration required for your needs. I also have no idea how long it would take or how much acid would be required to get the job done.

 

medoug.

 

P.S. I just looked. I have "Whink" brand rust stain remover and the label says that it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If I remember it cost about $4 for a fairly small bottle.

Edited by medoug
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The Kamikaze Clan

+The Kamikaze Clan

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have been slowly making a hole in a rock but it takes forever. Does anyone have some advice on making a hole in the bottom of a rock? Preferably fast?

 

The easiest way to do it is with diamond covered cutting equipment. Quite expensive off course.

 

My wife found a man on a arts and crafts fair near our home that makes big holes in stones. A 20 cm diameter rock with a 55mm diameter/90 mm deep hole was like 10 USD. That´s really cheap imho.

 

I don´t think it´s a coincident that the man that makes the holes lives not to long from a company specialized in diamond cutting tools: http://www.lodteknik.se/

 

But if you want to do the hole your self: take a drill bit made for concrete and a machine made to use it. 5-8 mm drill bit will do OK. Larger diameters is waste of money. Drill the outer perimeter of your intended hole and make a few holes tight in the middle of the hole to be. Don´t forget to cool with water while drilling. Then take a narrow chisel and a hammer, and go like wiking berserk on the material you want to get rid of. If there are 30-40 mm material left on the outside it´s quite hard to break the stone if it´s clear of cracks. It will not be a nice smooth hole, but it will classify as a ordinary hole.

 

My home town is built on granite: http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/st...nal/9704215.jpg ( the bench in the picture is not the town centre... ;D )

 

Since I moved here I´ve heard those stories about the difficulty doing stone work. A work that often is inherited through generations is not impossible to learn by most people, so I got a nice round granite stone and my simple tools. Two hours later (including tool sharpening) I had made some 5 mm deep and 25 cm long flames (like those on hot rods) on the stone. Not to difficult, and fun to do. Now I have a Rock n´ Roll stone! (hahaha...)

Edited by The Kamikaze Clan
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4wheelin_fool

4wheelin_fool

Posted
Posted

Eating away the rock with an acid might be the most effective way. I believe that's what a lot of monument engravers use. I'm not sure what type of acid would be most effective, but I know that you can buy muratic acid at most hardware/home supply stores. It is usually used to clean or etch cement, but I don't know how it'd do on gneiss.

 

Muriatic/Hydrocloric acid wont do much to a rock besides clean it.

 

However, if you mix it with aluminum there will be an instant reaction; the metal will foam up, produce plenty of heat and completely disappear, as well as nearly destroying your nasal passages if you are too close to it. I would NOT play around with it. (well, I did when I was 13 or so, but thats different) :shocked:

 

Probably the easiest thing to do is to forget the rock, get a container and pad concrete around it. Using a drill on most rocks is extremely difficult. I have a cache which is a micro embedded into a 80 pound block of poured concrete. It was a bit difficult drilling a hole into it, to fit a small brass pipe. The original intention was to have it appear as if a penny was sitting on top of it - you pick up the penny and discover the cache attached to the bottom. It didnt work out that way, as the drill would not make a clean cut and the top of the hole became too wide. I ended up placing a small piece of metal on it the size of a quarter and turning the block upside down. It was part of a house that I had volunteered to help rebuild. They had made a mistake pouring the concrete for the garage wall, and had to use a wet saw to slice off a big chunk. Everyone kept tripping over it, so I thought I would make a cache out of it. It was the only micro that I have strained my back hiding (so far) :laughing:

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Borst68

+Borst68

Posted
Posted

I found this on the internet:

"Warning: There is one acid that will severely etch, pit and dull a polished granite surface. This acid is known as Hydrofluoric acid (HF) and is found in many rust removers. If you have experienced etching on granite surfaces, and you are using such a product, you may want to check the label and see if it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If it does, the granite may need to be repaired."

 

I know the information is for granite, but I also found out that gneiss is the same material, but not compacted quite as much (slightly more porous).

 

Other information said that the quartz in granite will be unaffected by acid, but the feldspar which holds the quartz crystals together will dissolve and turn to clay.

 

You might find that the concentration in the rust remover is too week. If so, you might need to go to a chemical supply store to get the concentration required for your needs. I also have no idea how long it would take or how much acid would be required to get the job done.

 

medoug.

 

P.S. I just looked. I have "Whink" brand rust stain remover and the label says that it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If I remember it cost about $4 for a fairly small bottle.

 

As a chemist, I would caution anyone about playing with HF. This is very nasty stuff. You don't need a huge burn from HF to die. A 5" x 5" burn from 70% HF is considered life threatening and need immediate medical treatment. This is not something you want to play with. In my employment, we use 100% (anhydrous) HF. Lethal dose to a human is roughly a tablespoon full. We wear full rubber suits, gloves that go to my elbows and a space helmet plugged into a breathing air system. HF is not worth the hassle/risk to make a geocache.

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Chrysalides

+Chrysalides

Posted
Posted

How to drill holes quickly in rocks? Sedimentary, my dear Watson.

Hey, don't knock it. Every now and then, it's gneiss to come across a good thread!

I'm not knocking it, I'm just encouraging the OP to be boulder in his experiments, and not flint from the challenge. He might come up with an igneous method for hollowing rocks.

 

*cough* sorry. Now where's my meds...

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roziecakes

+roziecakes

Posted
Posted

How to drill holes quickly in rocks? Sedimentary, my dear Watson.

Hey, don't knock it. Every now and then, it's gneiss to come across a good thread!

I'm not knocking it, I'm just encouraging the OP to be boulder in his experiments, and not flint from the challenge. He might come up with an igneous method for hollowing rocks.

 

*cough* sorry. Now where's my meds...

 

Hey now, don't be so hard on yourself... at least you're having a rocking good time!

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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

How to drill holes quickly in rocks? Sedimentary, my dear Watson.

 

Hey, don't knock it. Every now and then, it's gneiss to come across a good thread!

I know what you mean! I never take a good thread for granite.

 

(OK, one of us had to get that one out of the way. You can thank me later.)

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medoug

medoug

Posted
Posted (edited)

Muriatic/Hydrocloric acid wont do much to a rock besides clean it.

It was Hydrofluoric acid, not Hydrochloric acid.

 

However, if you mix it with aluminum there will be an instant reaction; the metal will foam up, produce plenty of heat and completely disappear, as well as nearly destroying your nasal passages if you are too close to it. I would NOT play around with it. (well, I did when I was 13 or so, but thats different) :anibad:

Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.

Edited by medoug
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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

Muriatic/Hydrocloric acid wont do much to a rock besides clean it.

 

It was Hydrofluoric acid, not Hydrochloric acid.

 

However, if you mix it with aluminum there will be an instant reaction; the metal will foam up, produce plenty of heat and completely disappear, as well as nearly destroying your nasal passages if you are too close to it. I would NOT play around with it. (well, I did when I was 13 or so, but thats different) :anibad:

 

Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.

Hydroflouric acid is what they use to etch glass, isn't it?
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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted
Eating away the rock with an acid might be the most effective way. I believe that's what a lot of monument engravers use.
Where did you get that information? I have never heard that, nor did I find any in some internet research. Sandblasting is the only thing I could come up with for etching granite.
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medoug

medoug

Posted
Posted

I found this on the internet:

"Warning: There is one acid that will severely etch, pit and dull a polished granite surface. This acid is known as Hydrofluoric acid (HF) and is found in many rust removers. If you have experienced etching on granite surfaces, and you are using such a product, you may want to check the label and see if it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If it does, the granite may need to be repaired."

 

I know the information is for granite, but I also found out that gneiss is the same material, but not compacted quite as much (slightly more porous).

 

Other information said that the quartz in granite will be unaffected by acid, but the feldspar which holds the quartz crystals together will dissolve and turn to clay.

 

You might find that the concentration in the rust remover is too week. If so, you might need to go to a chemical supply store to get the concentration required for your needs. I also have no idea how long it would take or how much acid would be required to get the job done.

 

medoug.

 

P.S. I just looked. I have "Whink" brand rust stain remover and the label says that it contains Hydrofluoric acid. If I remember it cost about $4 for a fairly small bottle.

 

As a chemist, I would caution anyone about playing with HF. This is very nasty stuff. You don't need a huge burn from HF to die. A 5" x 5" burn from 70% HF is considered life threatening and need immediate medical treatment. This is not something you want to play with. In my employment, we use 100% (anhydrous) HF. Lethal dose to a human is roughly a tablespoon full. We wear full rubber suits, gloves that go to my elbows and a space helmet plugged into a breathing air system. HF is not worth the hassle/risk to make a geocache.

 

The concentration must not be that high in the off-the-shelf grade rust remover for it to be allowed for consumer sale. The bottle does say to use gloves and that chemical burns can be more deceiving than they appear, but nothing to the level of the protection you mentioned. Better safe than sorry. Best to not attempt the acid solution.

 

medoug.

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Chrysalides

+Chrysalides

Posted
Posted
Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.

What chemical reaction would give off chlorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

 

Hydrofluoric acid and fluorine is much more dangerous than chlorine, BTW.

 

I doubt that acid is a cost effective way of creating large holes in rocks, but I have no personal experience. If anyone knows differently please correct me.

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Chrysalides

+Chrysalides

Posted
Posted (edited)
Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.
What chemical reaction would give off chlorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

What chemical reaction would give off chorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

NaClO + 2 HCl → H2O + NaCl + Cl2

 

2 KMnO4 + 16 HCl → 2 MnCl2 + 8 H2O + 2 KCl + 5 Cl2

Not normally found in rocks, I believe. And with HF, would likely liberate chlorine or fluorine as well (it's been some time since chemistry class).

 

Anyway, not important - unless someone can confirm that it is a good idea to use acid to create large holes in rocks.

 

What's with echoing me, pirate guy? Do I have to search the off topics forum for the explanation?

 

(somehow I think I know how he's going to reply...)

Edited by Chrysalides
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thedeadpirate

+thedeadpirate

Posted
Posted
Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.
What chemical reaction would give off chlorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

What chemical reaction would give off chorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

 

NaClO + 2 HCl → H2O + NaCl + Cl2

 

2 KMnO4 + 16 HCl → 2 MnCl2 + 8 H2O + 2 KCl + 5 Cl2

 

Isn't that how you get chlorine gas?

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thedeadpirate

+thedeadpirate

Posted
Posted
Hydrochloric acid would give off chorine gas fumes which are poisonous.
What chemical reaction would give off chlorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

What chemical reaction would give off chorine gas from hydrochloric acid?

NaClO + 2 HCl → H2O + NaCl + Cl2

 

2 KMnO4 + 16 HCl → 2 MnCl2 + 8 H2O + 2 KCl + 5 Cl2

Not normally found in rocks, I believe. And with HF, would likely liberate chlorine or fluorine as well (it's been some time since chemistry class).

 

Anyway, not important - unless someone can confirm that it is a good idea to use acid to create large holes in rocks.

 

What's with echoing me, pirate guy? Do I have to search the off topics forum for the explanation?

 

(somehow I think I know how he's going to reply...)

 

Did I echo you? :anibad:

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BikeBill

+BikeBill

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm too sleepy to come up with puns, but if you want to make a hole in a rock you can use a hammer drill something like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-1-inch...mmer-97743.html - with the right bit. The drill not only spins the bit but has a hammering impact action that helps break up the stone.

 

That's assuming the rock isn't super hard, of course. I've used these on concrete and they drill pretty fast. You could probably rent one at a tool rental store.

Edited by bikebill77
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medoug

medoug

Posted
Posted

If you could create the right shaped holes in the rock, you could maybe fill them with water and then freeze it. The expansion of freezing water can result in incredible forces. (I've seen thick-walled steel balls broken by filling with water and then submerging in liquid nitrogen.) This is the main reason cracks in concrete and other rocks usually form in nature. Water that gets into the rock cracks the rock as it goes through repeated freeze and thaw cycles.

 

The trick would be to get the right shaped hole. A plain straight hole would probably result in the water/ice simply expanding out of the hole as it freezes. I believe it would need to be an inverted conical shaped hole to break out pieces of the rock without causing the rock to completely split open. Getting this "right-shaped" hole into the rock would be the real problem with this approach.

 

medoug.

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