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First to Find, Second to Log (FTF Etiquette)


kiwiowl
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I've seen this a few times now and wondered what should be done in the case where the first person to find isn't the first to log. I can see many reasons why you may not be able to log a find straight away after you have been the first to find - but can do within the next day or so.

 

I had an example today where I was first to find. I couldn't log due to site maintenance, had to go to work and when I could log, someone had already logged their find. The didn't claim FTF I must add, on the contrary, they admitted being second.

 

But if say the second person to find the cache makes their log first, who is then given the the FTF statistic? Surely the admins don't analyze this. I'd have thought the fist log after release is given FTF?

 

So, wouldn't good etiquette be, wait to log your visit until the real FTF had made theirs?

 

(If anyone knows, I'd also be interested in knowing, can the FTF stat be altered once the first log has been made? eg, if you logged with an earlier date would this remove the stat from the first log and award to the new log? Hope that makes sense?)

 

Personally, I'd wait to log my find if I knew I wasn't FTF, but I don't always see this happening. Do we need to log a time too?

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There is no FTF statistic other than in the head of the cacher. If you are FTF nothing about the order of the logs changes that. I wouldn't worry about the order of the logs. At least I don't, nor seemingly do most of the people in my area. I often see the FTF logging 2nd, 3rd or even later. It is irrelevant who logs when.

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FTF is first to find the cache, not to log on-line.

 

It's considered bad form to intentionally wait a long time to log your FTF on-line, however understandable that sometimes you can't log on-line right away.

 

As for non-FTFs logging, you can't expect them to wait a few days to log their cache, especially if they are acknowledging they are not FTF.

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On those optional stat pages some cachers have on their profile page, the FTF stat they have listed there is being added by the cacher themselves. For instance, the stat program I use scans my on-line logs for the phrase FTF and then asks me if I want to include that cache on my page. I tell it whether or not to count it. But as Briansnat says, no other weight is given to the stat and really it doesn't matter whose log appears first. The FTF'er can claim it in any order and all will recognize and honor it. :P

Edited by Brooklyn51
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So, wouldn't good etiquette be, wait to log your visit until the real FTF had made theirs?

 

Personally, I'd wait to log my find if I knew I wasn't FTF, but I don't always see this happening. Do we need to log a time too?

 

no, its not a good idea to wait to log, that would just make others believe that they still have a shot at FTF

 

even when we are second we log as soon as we can and mention that we were second

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no, its not a good idea to wait to log, that would just make others believe that they still have a shot at FTF

 

Exactly. No logs means I can still race through traffic for the FTF. It means I can blow off lunch with the hubs. If there is already a log, then I can take my time finding it later on. However, I do love meeting other cachers at GZ. It's the best part of an FTF race....

 

Personally, I log all my logs from GZ. But not everyone has an iPhone. So I will mention if I am STF on my log, but I'm not waiting for the FTF to post. I won't remember to log it later. I find, log, and move on.

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Part of the deal is that Geocaching.com doesn't recognize FTF as an official part of the game. For those who do indulge in the FTF race (which I do occasionally) it's the person who signed the physical logbook first. I try to log my FTFs as soon as possible, but sometimes, yes, someone else may log online first. It doesn't take away any FTF status from the person who actually found it first, so no worries. :P

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Not everyone logs online immediately. Some caches here get a few finds before they're logged online. I personally like to log as soon as possible after the finds so I don't forget them. I'm not likely to wait for someone to log online just because they were first. I'll simply enter my log, usually note I'm not FTF and move on with my life.

 

Not all cachers log online either. I don't really have the patience to wait around for someone to not show up online to log.

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Personally I would wait a couple of hours to see if the FTF has been logged before I log my find. But I would definitely log mine before bedtime for fear of forgetting.

It's kinda the same with trackables though. We had this just yesterday. Got to a cache and the TB present was not on the inventory on the iPhone app. My mum took it and didn't log it until today (partly due to the fact that the site was down for maintenance).

There's nothing worse than not being able to get the mileage on your TB just because someone couldn't wait a few hrs to log their pickup.

I was part of a FTF group at a 10years event. The cache we found was so far into the tree coverage that neither myself or the other iPhone cacher had enough signal to send the log.

By the time we had got to somewhere with enough signal...someone else had beat us to it but since they had seen our name in the logbook, they didn't try to claim it for themselves - I think that's just manners really.

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It's kinda the same with trackables though. <snip>

There's nothing worse than not being able to get the mileage on your TB just because someone couldn't wait a few hrs to log their pickup.

One of those is a real stat that Groundspeak helps the owner keep track of. The other is a side game in which FTF is still FTF no matter when or even IF the finder logs his/her find.

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It's kinda the same with trackables though. <snip>

There's nothing worse than not being able to get the mileage on your TB just because someone couldn't wait a few hrs to log their pickup.

One of those is a real stat that Groundspeak helps the owner keep track of. The other is a side game in which FTF is still FTF no matter when or even IF the finder logs his/her find.

 

That's why I said 'kinda' the same.

 

Maybe I didn't make my opinion clear that there is nothing wrong with logging STF before the FTF provided you are not trying to claim the FTF for yourself.

 

However (and this is just me playing Devil's advocate), if people are willing to wait a couple of hours to log a TB then why can't they wait a couple hours to log a find?

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However (and this is just me playing Devil's advocate), if people are willing to wait a couple of hours to log a TB then why can't they wait a couple hours to log a find?

Because they're not kinda the same. They are apples and oranges.

 

It matters whether or not someone get get the proper mileage on a TB. Grabbing the TB out of turn can mess that up.

 

It doesn't matter if someone logs their find before the FTF does. It has no bearing on whether or not the FTF is FTF. Even if the FTF doesn't log online, he's still FTF.

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

How is that even possible? Somebody has to find it first.

 

And I can be the first to say that there is no just FTF game of finding my cache. :laughing::shocked:

 

So what.

 

Most CO's don't acknowledge it, yet people still compete. It matters not what the CO says.

 

And how dare you even suggest that people not compete! That's what geocaching is all about! :angry:

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

How is that even possible? Somebody has to find it first.

 

And I can be the first to say that there is no just FTF game of finding my cache. :laughing::shocked:

 

So what.

 

Most CO's don't acknowledge it, yet people still compete. It matters not what the CO says.

 

And how dare you even suggest that people not compete! That's what geocaching is all about! :angry:

 

Also you can't require that there is no 'FTF game' on your cache. I assume that would be considered an ALR...

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

How is that even possible? Somebody has to find it first.

 

And I can be the first to say that there is no just FTF game of finding my cache. :shocked::angry:

 

So what.

 

Most CO's don't acknowledge it, yet people still compete. It matters not what the CO says.

 

And how dare you even suggest that people not compete! That's what geocaching is all about! :angry:

 

Also you can't require that there is no 'FTF game' on your cache. I assume that would be considered an ALR...

 

What I thought. :angry: Dont take me serious, I am blowing things in the wind. :laughing:

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?
How is that even possible? Somebody has to find it first.
And I can be the first to say that there is no just FTF game of finding my cache. :shocked::angry:
So what.

 

Most CO's don't acknowledge it, yet people still compete. It matters not what the CO says.

 

And how dare you even suggest that people not compete! That's what geocaching is all about! :angry:

Also you can't require that there is no 'FTF game' on your cache. I assume that would be considered an ALR...
What I thought. :angry: Dont take me serious, I am blowing things in the wind. :laughing:

WHAT? ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WERE JUST SUGGESTING DOING AWAY WITH COMPETITIVENESS JUST TO GET OUR BLOOD BOILING???? :ph34r:

 

 

*** read my sig

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

nah... there is an easy way around this... and it ticks all those FTF racers (you know the ones because they love to put FTF and a bunch of smilies... or FTL and a bunch of smilies.... or STF and a smiley ...)

 

i saw it done recently, cache owner takes his cache to an event... brand new cache, has a few people sign the log. he goes out and places the cache, has it released the next day. the racers come out with that rush they get when they know they only have minutes to spare, open the cache to find a log that's already been desicrated.

 

every now and then, i'll log online that i was 83rd (or whatever place)... and a bunch of smileys. it counts for the same thing. :laughing::angry::angry::shocked:

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In this case, I do the FTF / 2TL log. Of course, Depending on how things work out, you could be 2TF / FTL.

 

FTF- First to Find

2TF - Second to Find

FTL - First to Log

2TL - Second to Log

 

In Reality, it don't REALLY matter if your First or 1000th to Find. These are statistics that some people keep track of. I have over 100 FTFs and Probably 125-150 FTLs, but have REALLY gotten over the running out at all times to MILES and MILES around.

 

The Steaks

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

nah... there is an easy way around this... and it ticks all those FTF racers (you know the ones because they love to put FTF and a bunch of smilies... or FTL and a bunch of smilies.... or STF and a smiley ...)

 

i saw it done recently, cache owner takes his cache to an event... brand new cache, has a few people sign the log. he goes out and places the cache, has it released the next day. the racers come out with that rush they get when they know they only have minutes to spare, open the cache to find a log that's already been desicrated.

 

every now and then, i'll log online that i was 83rd (or whatever place)... and a bunch of smileys. it counts for the same thing. :laughing::angry::angry::shocked:

 

those are what i like to call "mean party poopers"

 

its a game that we are free to draw joy from it in whatever manner we wish to, within reason,

if some like to hunt for FTF so be it, just because we're adults (although some not behaving like one most times) doesn't make it OK to be mean to others

 

its funny though that probably those same people teach their kids not to be mean, but in adult world is called a joke

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

nah... there is an easy way around this... and it ticks all those FTF racers (you know the ones because they love to put FTF and a bunch of smilies... or FTL and a bunch of smilies.... or STF and a smiley ...)

 

i saw it done recently, cache owner takes his cache to an event... brand new cache, has a few people sign the log. he goes out and places the cache, has it released the next day. the racers come out with that rush they get when they know they only have minutes to spare, open the cache to find a log that's already been desicrated.

 

 

I once changed a cache from a puzzle to a regular. I archived the original listing and submitted a new cache page. Because nothing changed about the cache but the type and because there were only a few sigs in the logbook, I just wrote on the next blank page that "the log for the new cache begins here".

 

I received a nasty email from the FTF about how wrong I was to deny him a clean logbook.

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And how dare you even suggest that people not compete! That's what geocaching is all about! :shocked:

 

Umm, I must be doing it wrong then. I thought it was about people hiding a log somewhere and me (and anyone else who wants to) trying to find it. Kind of like a crossword puzzle. One person sets the puzzle, lots of people solve it.

 

Some of them are easy, others aren't.

 

They are all fun.

 

But if you want competitive then... "I've found more caches than Dave Ulmer!" :laughing:

 

Z.

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Not that I want to take sides on this but I would like to clear up a misconception regarding the additional stats programs out there. At least with the one that I currently use, as well as with two others that I ultimately decided not to use, the user DOES NOT self-enter any FTFs. FTFs are identified by the software from using your imported GPX file.

 

The significance of that is that IF the FTF only does the paper log, or if the FTF isn't the first to submit an online log, then they GS system provided info will in fact be read by the third-party stat software so that the FIRST log entry for a cache was the FTF.

 

Actual mileage may vary in that I obviously don't know about all the third-party stat software, but I can tell you that this is factual with what I'm using as each week it shows me with a FTF that I was the STF, but first to log only because I use iPhone in the field and the FTF does not.

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FTFs are identified by the software from using your imported GPX file.

 

The significance of that is that IF the FTF only does the paper log, or if the FTF isn't the first to submit an online log, then they GS system provided info will in fact be read by the third-party stat software so that the FIRST log entry for a cache was the FTF.

 

 

You should use different stats software. This one is broken.

 

Since Groundspeak doesn't include FTF data in the GPX file, the only way to get an accurate count is to do it yourself. Some software assumes the first online log is the FTF. As you've seen, this is a faulty assumption. Other software looks for the letters "FTF" in your log, and counts those as FTF. This can work if you are aware of it and use it carefully, but it can also count a FTF if you log something like "just missed getting there in time to be FTF."

 

The only thing that really works is for the user to somehow indicate which caches he was first to find.

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Can a CO make a rule that there is no FTF on his caches? Just wondering?

 

nah... there is an easy way around this... and it ticks all those FTF racers (you know the ones because they love to put FTF and a bunch of smilies... or FTL and a bunch of smilies.... or STF and a smiley ...)

 

i saw it done recently, cache owner takes his cache to an event... brand new cache, has a few people sign the log. he goes out and places the cache, has it released the next day. the racers come out with that rush they get when they know they only have minutes to spare, open the cache to find a log that's already been desicrated.

 

every now and then, i'll log online that i was 83rd (or whatever place)... and a bunch of smileys. it counts for the same thing. :angry::D:D:ph34r:

 

Thanks for the idea and I will name the cache, "Party Pooper" :laughing::shocked::angry::angry:

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I received a nasty email from the FTF about how wrong I was to deny him a clean logbook.
This reminds me of something I saw on Craigslist last night. It looks like the post got flagged, so I can't quote it directly. It was in the "Free" section & went something like this:
Free Boats - To all you people offering free boats without a trailer: how do you suppose people are going to get the boat home? You need to either include the trailer or get over yourselves!!!
It's free! Someone is offering up something they paid money for for you to enjoy! C'mon now!

 

"Waaaahhhh! There's no trailer!" :anibad:

 

"Waaaaaahhhh! The log book isn't new!" :cry:

 

To paraphrase my paraphrase: Get over yourself!

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I've heard of cachers who will wait to log their FTF on a cache as a way to tease other cachers who believe they are seeking the FTF only to find a dirty log. I try to log a FTF as fast as possible to avoid this. I know I hate it when I've gotten out of bed, driven 20 miles for a FTF, only to find a sig several hours earlier, but no log.

 

Sure, maybe some people haven't gotten back home to log it, but if you have the means, IMO, an early log is a nice courtesy. Your thoughts?

FTF is not an official stat. FTF need not even post an online log.

 

If you're hopping out of bed and driving 20 miles for a FTF, then perhaps you have bigger issues than getting second to find. :anibad:

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I've heard of cachers who will wait to log their FTF on a cache as a way to tease other cachers who believe they are seeking the FTF only to find a dirty log. I try to log a FTF as fast as possible to avoid this. I know I hate it when I've gotten out of bed, driven 20 miles for a FTF, only to find a sig several hours earlier, but no log.

 

Sure, maybe some people haven't gotten back home to log it, but if you have the means, IMO, an early log is a nice courtesy. Your thoughts?

 

When I go for what should be an FTF, after all it was published yesterday and no online log, and find a signature in the log I simply rip that page out of the log and go home and log the FTF. Let that other fool try to claim a FTF when his signature is not in the log. That will teach them.

 

:anibad:

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