No Stickers, Labels, or Stamps allowed.

[+FunnyNose]

There is a new cache in my part of town that reads.

 

Individual signatures must be on cache paper in order to claim find. No Stickers, Labels, or Stamps allowed. Logs that are cut and paste will be deleted.

 

I know for sure the last part is an ALR. How about the first ?

[Keystone]

Yes, both the logbook and the online log components are impermissible additional logging requirements. You do not need to pay attention to these, like if you normally use a sticker or stamp when visiting caches.

 

If the cache in question is a micro or other cache with a small logsheet, then it would be OK for the cache owner to request that loggers be considerate in taking up log real estate. For a full size cache with a full size logbook, the cache page language is inappropriate, even as an optional request.

[+brslk]

I thought the physical logbook had to be signed though? A sticker or stamp is not a signature.

[BCProspectors]

I thought the physical logbook had to be signed though? A sticker or stamp is not a signature.

It is. Any marking you leave in the logbook identifying yourself or your group is a signature.

[+brslk]

I thought the physical logbook had to be signed though? A sticker or stamp is not a signature.

It is. Any marking you leave in the logbook identifying yourself or your group is a signature.

 

A stamp or sticker does not indicate you left a mark though. A stamp... maybe... A sticker? no.

 

Where do you get your definition of a signature BTW?

 

And how does Groundspeak define it?

 

Actually I will bow out of this thread and start one that deals with my question.

Edited July 26, 2010 by brslk

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

Why the need to split hairs on this? For the purpose of geocaching signing the log is an indication that you were there. A stamp or sticker can easily fulfill this aspect of the game.

[+narcissa]

It's inappropriate and I'm surprised it got past review. It was likely altered after the cache was reviewed. I'd send a note to the reviewer who published the cache to let them know.

[+thedeadpirate]

A stamp or sticker does not indicate you left a mark though.

 

An actual signature doesn't either unless you have a handwriting expert comparing the signatures.

 

It all comes back to geocaching having its basis in the honor system.

[+brslk]

It's inappropriate and I'm surprised it got past review. It was likely altered after the cache was reviewed. I'd send a note to the reviewer who published the cache to let them know.

 

Thank you cache avenger!

[+narcissa]

Thank you cache avenger!

 

Reviewers depend on cachers to make note of problems like that. A reviewer has already stated, in this thread, that the owner is out of line. It's likely that the cache page was altered after review.

[Trader Rick & Rosie]

What's so hard to understand about "sign the logbook"? How do you spin that?

[+Snoogans]

What's so hard to understand about "sign the logbook"? How do you spin that?

 

A sticker or a stamp IS signing the log book IMO. The cacher is leaving physical evidence that they were there.

 

My spin: It's a control freak who is looking for a reason to delete legit finds on their cache. Seen it a hundred times before. They most probably enjoy the drama.

 

Personally, I'd loooove to delete the finds of folks who inconsiderately use sharpies that bleed through several pages of a log book and sometimes mess up the logs of previous finders.... Ummm, but that would be wrong.

[+Markwell]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

[Skippermark]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

Exactly...

 

What about people who don't have a pen and there's none in the cache, so they cut themselves and leave a drop of blood on the logbook. Ewwwww...

 

I'd rather someone just say they didn't have a pen and there was none in the cache. No need to be leaving bodily fluids on the logs.

[+redsox_mark]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

Exactly...

 

What about people who don't have a pen and there's none in the cache, so they cut themselves and leave a drop of blood on the logbook. Ewwwww...

 

I'd rather someone just say they didn't have a pen and there was none in the cache. No need to be leaving bodily fluids on the logs.

 

I agree, and I think most cachers use their best judgement. The only problem is different cachers make different judgements, and when discussing the judgements they have made on these forums often there is disagreement. In practice it's not often an issue; unless (for example) a cache owner deletes your log because your judgement was different from his/hers.

 

There was a recent thread about signing the log, with "best judgement" ranging from "must sign the official log, no exceptions", to "do what ever you like, I never check my physical logs"... with lots of opinions in-between.

[+humboldt flier]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

 

I guess common sense is not all that common

[+scuba_2]

WoW and I though this was ment to be fun.

[+thedeadpirate]

WoW and I though this was ment to be fun.

 

Where'd you get such a silly idea from?

[+Chrysalides]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

I don't know what's worse - that some people insist on having everything spelled out for them, or that some others, after it has been spelled out for them, says "well, (insert favorite vulgarity here), I'm still going to do it my way".

 

From now on, I'm signing my logs with a strand of my hair stuck with tape. Split, of course.

[+DragonsWest]

WoW and I though this was ment to be fun.

 

Where'd you get such a silly idea from?

 

Yeah, do it wrong and they'll string you up.

 

[+briansnat]

What's so hard to understand about "sign the logbook"? How do you spin that?

 

So if you find a nano and leave your initials rather than your signature does that make it invalid?

[+Team Cotati]

What's so hard to understand about "sign the logbook"? How do you spin that?

 

So if you find a nano and leave your initials rather than your signature does that make it invalid?

 

Yes, that makes it totally invalid. Even though you might use your own little hand and a writing instrument to scratch out your initials, it is not a signature and as such is totally invalid.

[+thedeadpirate]

<nevermind>

Edited July 27, 2010 by GeoBain

[+t4e]

 

From now on, I'm signing my logs with a strand of my hair stuck with tape. Split, of course.

 

careful, someone might run a DNA test, get the home coordinates from your profile and you will be the next victim of

[+tozainamboku]

WoW and I though this was ment to be fun.

 

Where'd you get such a silly idea from?

That's actually from the guidelines (in reference to cache that solicit or have agendas)

Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, ...

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

[+thedeadpirate]

WoW and I though this was ment to be fun.

 

Where'd you get such a silly idea from?

That's actually from the guidelines (in reference to cache that solicit or have agendas)

Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, ...

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

 

I thought the wacko emoticon would have conveyed that I was kidding. I guess I need to go back to spelling it out with disclaimers again.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

Actually, it is!

 

From http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

[+thedeadpirate]

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

Actually, it is!

 

From http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

 

Don't encourage him. Now we get to see him pull out that essay on what the guidelines really say about signing the logbook.

[+narcissa]

 

Don't encourage him. Now we get to see him pull out that essay on what the guidelines really say about signing the logbook.

 

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't actually pass a Turing test.

[+tozainamboku]

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

Actually, it is!

 

From http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

 

Don't encourage him. Now we get to see him pull out that essay on what the guidelines really say about signing the logbook.

Too late. The guideline TAR quoted says that once you sign the the physical you can log a find online. It does not say you must sign the log (or leave a sticker or stamp) in order to log a find. The point is that a cache owner cannot put any additional requirements for logging a find once you have signed the log.

 

This thread is encouraging me to test my theory. I am planning to hide a cache with a requirement to post a picture of yourself with a funny hat in order to log a find but it will state that if you sign the physical log book you don't have to post a picture. If I am correct in my interpretation this cache should be approved. I will then hide the cache 40 feet up in a tree in an ammo can with the cover welded shut. We will see who the people who really want a smiley are

[+Chrysalides]

Too late. The guideline TAR quoted says that once you sign the the physical you can log a find online. It does not say you must sign the log (or leave a sticker or stamp) in order to log a find. The point is that a cache owner cannot put any additional requirements for logging a find once you have signed the log.

See, stuffed tiger with 6 year old millionaire playboy in post #13, this is why the guidelines will soon rival the U.S. tax code.

 

I've decided some time ago that it is pointless to argue with toz's interpretation and leave it with "whatever".

 

This thread is encouraging me to test my theory. I am planning to hide a cache with a requirement to post a picture of yourself with a funny hat in order to log a find but it will state that if you sign the physical log book you don't have to post a picture. If I am correct in my interpretation this cache should be approved. I will then hide the cache 40 feet up in a tree in an ammo can with the cover welded shut. We will see who the people who really want a smiley are

Please do so and let us know - we'll see if a reviewer agrees with your interpretation.

[+DragonsWest]

Unlike having to actually sign logs, which is not in the guidelines.

Actually, it is!

 

From http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

 

Don't encourage him. Now we get to see him pull out that essay on what the guidelines really say about signing the logbook.

Too late. The guideline TAR quoted says that once you sign the the physical you can log a find online. It does not say you must sign the log (or leave a sticker or stamp) in order to log a find. The point is that a cache owner cannot put any additional requirements for logging a find once you have signed the log.

 

This thread is encouraging me to test my theory. I am planning to hide a cache with a requirement to post a picture of yourself with a funny hat in order to log a find but it will state that if you sign the physical log book you don't have to post a picture. If I am correct in my interpretation this cache should be approved. I will then hide the cache 40 feet up in a tree in an ammo can with the cover welded shut. We will see who the people who really want a smiley are

 

If Carmen Miranda were not already dead, she could get the FTF. Then again, if she fell it would kill her. Then we'd have you to blame for her death all over again.

[+thedeadpirate]

This thread is encouraging me to test my theory. I am planning to hide a cache with a requirement to post a picture of yourself with a funny hat in order to log a find but it will state that if you sign the physical log book you don't have to post a picture. If I am correct in my interpretation this cache should be approved. I will then hide the cache 40 feet up in a tree in an ammo can with the cover welded shut. We will see who the people who really want a smiley are

Actually I think you'd be onto something right up to the point where you weld the cover shut.

 

The only problem I can see (besides welding the cover shut and thus not allowing a signed log) is that by a strict interpretation of your stated rule, I would be able to post a picture of myself wearing a funny hat in my living room and you would have to allow me a find. You don't state it has to be made with your cache in hand.

[knowschad]

Actually, it is!

 

From http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

 

Too late. The guideline TAR quoted says that once you sign the the physical you can log a find online. It does not say you must sign the log (or leave a sticker or stamp) in order to log a find. The point is that a cache owner cannot put any additional requirements for logging a find once you have signed the log.

Yes it does, Toz. It says that you can't log online until the physical log has been signed. The keyword is the word "Once". The online log can only be signed, "once" the physical log has been signed. I think that is pretty clear.

 

(On the other hand, I am not a fundamentalist. If you* want to cheat, go for it. Everyone else in your caching neighborhood will soon pick up on it and be making jokes about you, but do what you need to do.)

 

* "you" in the generic sense. Certainly not aimed at Toz or any other particular individual.

[+ZeLonewolf]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

Exactly...

 

What about people who don't have a pen and there's none in the cache, so they cut themselves and leave a drop of blood on the logbook. Ewwwww...

 

I'd rather someone just say they didn't have a pen and there was none in the cache. No need to be leaving bodily fluids on the logs.

 

I occasionally forget my pen. In those instances, I simply find a pebble, rub it around in the dirt, and draw a brown "Z" zorro-style on the log. No need to leave bodily fluids :-D

[+DragonsWest]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

Exactly...

 

What about people who don't have a pen and there's none in the cache, so they cut themselves and leave a drop of blood on the logbook. Ewwwww...

 

I'd rather someone just say they didn't have a pen and there was none in the cache. No need to be leaving bodily fluids on the logs.

 

I occasionally forget my pen. In those instances, I simply find a pebble, rub it around in the dirt, and draw a brown "Z" zorro-style on the log. No need to leave bodily fluids :-D

 

I've yet to delete a log from someone who forgot their pen or pencil. It happens.

[+tozainamboku]

Yes it does, Toz. It says that you can't log online until the physical log has been signed. The keyword is the word "Once". The online log can only be signed, "once" the physical log has been signed. I think that is pretty clear.

 

(On the other hand, I am not a fundamentalist. If you* want to cheat, go for it. Everyone else in your caching neighborhood will soon pick up on it and be making jokes about you, but do what you need to do.)

 

* "you" in the generic sense. Certainly not aimed at Toz or any other particular individual.

I don't know what English you speak. If it said "only once the physical log has been signed..." then you could read it your way. Without the word only there could be other cases where a find can be logged online. At best once means that if you do sign the physical log you don't have meet any other requirements to log a find. See necessary and sufficient conditiions.

Edited July 27, 2010 by tozainamboku

[+Scubasonic]

Yes, both the logbook and the online log components are impermissible additional logging requirements. You do not need to pay attention to these, like if you normally use a sticker or stamp when visiting caches.

 

If the cache in question is a micro or other cache with a small logsheet, then it would be OK for the cache owner to request that loggers be considerate in taking up log real estate. For a full size cache with a full size logbook, the cache page language is inappropriate, even as an optional request.

 

Then how did this get approved, and shouldn't a reviewer step in and have the CO change those requirements?

 

SS

[+narcissa]

Yes it does, Toz. It says that you can't log online until the physical log has been signed. The keyword is the word "Once". The online log can only be signed, "once" the physical log has been signed. I think that is pretty clear.

 

(On the other hand, I am not a fundamentalist. If you* want to cheat, go for it. Everyone else in your caching neighborhood will soon pick up on it and be making jokes about you, but do what you need to do.)

 

* "you" in the generic sense. Certainly not aimed at Toz or any other particular individual.

I don't know what English you speak. If it said "only once the physical log has been signed..." then you could read it your way. Without the word only there could be other cases where a find can be logged online. At best once means that if you do sign the physical log you don't have meet any other requirements to log a find. See necessary and sufficient conditiions.

 

The guidelines don't instruct finders at all, on any matter. Have you read them? They're called "Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines." No reference to finding, whatsoever.

 

However, the basic instructions for finders DO instruct geocachers to sign the logbook AND record an online log.

 

Most of Groundspeak's official communications deal with hiders, not seekers, because Groundspeak is in the business of listing caches. Groundspeak's written materials seem to quite sensibly recognize that Groundspeak can't expect to have any control over the behaviour of people looking for caches. It can only control the content it lists on its website.

 

You are right that the guidelines don't instruct finders in this regard, but you are entirely wrong in assuming that they should, or are intended to instruct finders in any way at all.

[hoosier guy]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

Exactly...

 

What about people who don't have a pen and there's none in the cache, so they cut themselves and leave a drop of blood on the logbook. Ewwwww...

 

I'd rather someone just say they didn't have a pen and there was none in the cache. No need to be leaving bodily fluids on the logs.

 

I occasionally forget my pen. In those instances, I simply find a pebble, rub it around in the dirt, and draw a brown "Z" zorro-style on the log. No need to leave bodily fluids :-D

 

I've yet to delete a log from someone who forgot their pen or pencil. It happens.

 

And, as one who has found himself sans pencil, let me say thank you for that kindness.

[+The Jester]

What's so hard to understand about "sign the logbook"? How do you spin that?

 

So if you find a nano and leave your initials rather than your signature does that make it invalid?

 

Yes, that makes it totally invalid. Even though you might use your own little hand and a writing instrument to scratch out your initials, it is not a signature and as such is totally invalid.

Writing my screen name in a log book is not a signature either, it's like the legal forms "print name" and "sign". Besides very few (if any) screen names would be legal signatures, so there isn't any legal finds yet, anywhere...

[knowschad]

Yes it does, Toz. It says that you can't log online until the physical log has been signed. The keyword is the word "Once". The online log can only be signed, "once" the physical log has been signed. I think that is pretty clear.

 

(On the other hand, I am not a fundamentalist. If you* want to cheat, go for it. Everyone else in your caching neighborhood will soon pick up on it and be making jokes about you, but do what you need to do.)

 

* "you" in the generic sense. Certainly not aimed at Toz or any other particular individual.

I don't know what English you speak. If it said "only once the physical log has been signed..." then you could read it your way. Without the word only there could be other cases where a find can be logged online. At best once means that if you do sign the physical log you don't have meet any other requirements to log a find. See necessary and sufficient conditiions.

I speak perfectly good English, thank you. My mother always told me that I could have my dessert once I finished my supper. She did not feel the need to include the word "only" in that sentence. I knew what she meant.

[+geodarts]

 

I've yet to delete a log from someone who forgot their pen or pencil. It happens.

 

And, as one who has found himself sans pencil, let me say thank you for that kindness.

 

Indeed, I lost three pens while caching a few days ago. Luckily, I was with somebody who had a pen otherwise I might have had to pull a leaf off of a plant as a writing implement and thereby violated a California law that makes it a misdemeanor to "cut or remove any plant growing on state or county highways or public lands except by authorized government employees and contractors." One more reason why stickers might be a good idea (although I have only used them as part of a group trip with about a dozen of us).

 

But onto other matters, I have to agree with the dog in glasses about the meaning of the word "once" in this context. There is no need to get too technical here or split hairs over meaning, its not statutory interpretation. Once. When. After. Signature. Initials. Fake Signature. Fake Initials. Stamp. Sticker. Ink. Pencil. Blood. DNA. Grass. Charcoal. Notary. Signed Declaration Upon Penalty of Perjury. Just mark the log. Put it back the way you got it. Replace the lamp post cover. Double check to make sure the decon lid is actually closed. Take a drug test to ensure that you made the find under valid conditions. Whatever. No need to make life any more complicated than it already is.

Edited July 27, 2010 by mulvaney

[+thedeadpirate]

I speak perfectly good English, thank you. My mother always told me that I could have my dessert once I finished my supper. She did not feel the need to include the word "only" in that sentence. I knew what she meant.

While I agree with you and I'm 99% sure that it is the way TPTB intended it to be, I also get that Toz is saying that your mother would also reserve the right to allow to eat dessert if you finished all your veggies and meat and maybe had a half of a roll left on your plate.

 

Basically it means that while finishing your supper guarantees that you get dessert, your mother could still choose to allow you have dessert if she felt you met her requirement for eating supper.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Geesh. This kind of hair-splitting is why the guidelines are so long. Does everything have to be defined? Can't people use their best judgment?

I don't know what's worse - that some people insist on having everything spelled out for them, or that some others, after it has been spelled out for them, says "well, (insert favorite vulgarity here), I'm still going to do it my way".

 

From now on, I'm signing my logs with a strand of my hair stuck with tape. Split, of course.

There is always someone in the crowd...too bad you beat me to that comment!!!

[+ArcherDragoon]

For what it is worth...my opinion...

 

Toz and Knowschad both make good points...sort of an argument that really cannot be "won" by either side. Yep...once the log is signed...the find is yours...but, it also can be taken as if you don't want to sign the log and still get credit for the find...go ahead and post a picture of you in hat found in the cache...

 

It isn't an additional logging requirement...it would be an alternative logging requirement...

 

Sign the Log...or...Wear the Hat...your choice...

 

Groundspeak set a "default" of signing the log...but you could offer an alternative to signing the log...

 

...again...only my opinion...it is not meant to be taken as fact...

 

*Dragoon never claimed to be human...he just plays one in real life...and, furthermore, these are just the ramblings of an Analytical mind trained in the Dark Arts!!!

Edited July 27, 2010 by ArcherDragoon

[+rickjill]

I like having the date of the find on the log along with my geocaching name. It is difficult to date stickers without a writing instrument. On my own caches I don't mind stickers. I just appreciate someone finding a cache I have hidden. I don't check for signatures in the logbook either. I have better things to do, like finding caches.

[+rickjill]

I despise cut and paste logs. Just type "TFTC" if you aren't creative enough to type one good word about a cache that someone has hidden for your benefit. I really don't care to read about how tired or wet or fast you were FIFTY times!

[+thedeadpirate]

it also can be taken as if you don't want to sign the log and still get credit for the find...go ahead and post a picture of you in hat found in the cache...

Hey dragoon of cheesy lineage, he didn't say the hat was in the cache.

[+tozainamboku]

The guidelines don't instruct finders at all, on any matter. Have you read them? They're called "Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines." No reference to finding, whatsoever.

 

However, the basic instructions for finders DO instruct geocachers to sign the logbook AND record an online log.

 

Most of Groundspeak's official communications deal with hiders, not seekers, because Groundspeak is in the business of listing caches. Groundspeak's written materials seem to quite sensibly recognize that Groundspeak can't expect to have any control over the behaviour of people looking for caches. It can only control the content it lists on its website.

 

You are right that the guidelines don't instruct finders in this regard, but you are entirely wrong in assuming that they should, or are intended to instruct finders in any way at all.

I agree that guidelines are for listing caches on Geocaching.com. I'm not sure what I said that makes you think I want them to provide guidelines for when to log a find. I wish everyone realized that when they quote the section titled "Logging of All Physical Caches". Most people read these as instructions to finder for logging of physical cache. (Note there are also sections in the gudeline titled "Virtual cache logging guidelines" and "Webcam cache logging guidelines" and a paragraph under the EarthCache section describing requirements for logging of EarthCaches) But Narcissa is right, these sections are not addressed to cache finders. Instead they are instructions to the cache owner as to how to deal with bogus logs in order to comply with the maintenance requirements to be responsible for the quality of posts and delete bogus logs. But I don't think many people will agree with Nacissa and me. Those sections certainly sound like they are instructions to finders.

 

I believe the oft quote sentence "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed" should be read as "Once the physical log has been signed the cache owner cannot levy additional requirements on the finder in order to log a find online". Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks. There is nothing in the guideline that says a cache owner cannot accept an online found log when the physical log is not found. It does not say "Find logs without a corresponding signature in the physical log are bogus and must be deleted."

 

Where my opinion differs with some others it that I don't believe that lack of signature can ever by itself make a found log bogus. And as this discussion of stickers shows, a sticker or name in the physical log is not always sufficient to prove that a log is not bogus. It is up to the cache owner to decide what, if any, proof they require to show that a cache was found.

 

With regard to the "basic instructions" that Narcissa linked to, where do they say one cannot log a find if you haven't signed the log book? They do say to sign the log and return the cache to its original locations. Both good ideas. They also say to use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache. I don't see anyone saying that if you don't use a GPS you can't log a find. Gee, they even say to enter your postal code and click "search." I don't think I've done that since I entered my home coordinates when I signed up for an account. The last instruction doesn't mention Find logs. It says "Share your geocaching stories and photos online." Certainly I can share my stories even if I didn't sign the log. I know I like to post a DNF and share my story when I didn't find the cache. If I found it and didn't sign the log for some reason, I'm going to log a find. There is no rule saying I can't.

 

I accept that in certain situations, a cache owner may look to a signature in the log as proof you "found" the cache. Generally I accept that just seeing the cache is not always enough to say you found it. Some cache owners may place physical or mental challenge to retrieving or opening the cache and expect you to meet these challenges once you have found the cache. Other times, a cache owner leaves a decoy or there might be a letterbox or other container nearby. Retrieving and opening the container may be necessary to know you found the cache and not something else. But again, I don't see signing the log as absolutely necessary in order to claim a find. One simply needs to provide enough information for the cache owner to decide if the find is bogus or not.