Puzzle Spoilers

[+willowbrookfarm]

Just because a spoiler is not placed directly in a log for a puzzle, it is still a spoiler if it is posted on a forum. There is a cacher in our area that is using a non-geocaching forum to ask for help solving puzzles that are eluding him/her. I stumbled upon it searching the web for some clue as to how to solve a puzzle, and the puzzle was spoiled.

 

I think this sort of thing is wrong, and the cacher should take not pleasure in a smiley doing this. It is not a bad thing to ask a fellow cacher or cache owner for a little help in solving the puzzle, but this spoils the spirit of the puzzle cache that the owner put an effort in creating for all of us.

 

I can only hope that the offending cacher reads this and ceases.

[+t4e]

I think this sort of thing is wrong, and the cacher should take not pleasure in a smiley doing this. It is not a bad thing to ask a fellow cacher or cache owner for a little help in solving the puzzle, but this spoils the spirit of the puzzle cache that the owner put an effort in creating for all of us.

 

I can only hope that the offending cacher reads this and ceases.

 

i see a contradiction in your post

 

I stumbled upon it searching the web for some clue as to how to solve a puzzle, and the puzzle was spoiled.

 

while is considered bad form to do such things in the GC forum, you can't tell people to stop using the internet or what to do outside of this forums, you searched online for a solution yourself

Edited July 19, 2010 by t4e

[+willowbrookfarm]

Research is one thing. Posting the entire puzzle, asking for the world to help by posting the solution is quite another.

[+Bullfrog Eh-Team]

asking for the world to help by posting the solution is quite another.

So It's 'the world' (i.e. perhaps a non-cacher') that posted the solution (on line ?) that has committed the geocaching error that you disapprove of !

 

I see - 'someone asked for on-line help, and received it on-line'; and you object to their technique. I guess it was slightly different than you admit doing yourself. I understand - you've already walked the mile in his/her mocassins; so you have the experience required to criticize his/her behaviour.

[+northernpenguin]

I think this sort of thing is wrong, and the cacher should take not pleasure in a smiley doing this. It is not a bad thing to ask a fellow cacher or cache owner for a little help in solving the puzzle, but this spoils the spirit of the puzzle cache that the owner put an effort in creating for all of us.

 

You're not going to enjoy the game if this type of thing worries you. I've seen complete puzzle requests, and solutions, with GC codes on places like Reddit and Yahoo Answers. It's gonna happen - fact of life.

 

It doesn't help with the number of puzzles in the GTA that pretty much REQUIRE Google skills just to figure out what kind of puzzle it is that you are solving.

 

If you don't want to run the risk of a seeing puzzle spoiler, don't Google it.

 

If you OWN the cache, and that's upset you - well not much I can say here. I could tell you to contact the poster or you could delete their log or whatever, but that's just going to produce a big ball of negativity and nobody will be better for it.

 

Remember, there's no prize for finding all the caches. If a person "cheats" to get a smiley, they cheat themselves more than anything. Let it go, and you'll have a lot more fun with this hobby

[+t4e]

Research is one thing. Posting the entire puzzle, asking for the world to help by posting the solution is quite another.

 

i still fail to see how this is a problem, you said yourself its in a non-geocaching forum....

 

the internet has endless resources, once you take the route to google something it is assumed that you are prepared to possibly get more than you are looking for

 

and i agree with northernpenguin, if that is how some choose to play the game, by "cheating" so be it, there is no competition in this hobby only if you wish to make it one

 

those that choose to play by the "rules" can take pride in the fact that they succeeded on their own capabilities

Edited July 19, 2010 by t4e

[+dfx]

Remember, there's no prize for finding all the caches.

there's one kind of, anyway

[+Red90]

Play the game how YOU want to play it. Allow others to play it their own way. The meaning of their find and your find are different things and have no effect on each other.

[+willowbrookfarm]

Play the game how YOU want to play it. Allow others to play it their own way. The meaning of their find and your find are different things and have no effect on each other.

 

I agree with your sentiments and the previous posters, but as far as I can tell nobody is understanding my point.

 

I don't care how much help anybody gets to do a cache, whether they tag along with the solver for the find, or whatever. We all rely on search engines to research some obscure puzzle cache to do the solution. Many depend on it. So..... If your approach to solving it is to ask the question on a bulletin board that is indexed by a search engine "Hey world, anybody now how to solve this puzzle? Please post a reply", everybody else is going to inadvertantly stumble across it while they try to enjoy the puzzle.

[+fingers crossed]

So..... If your approach to solving it is to ask the question on a bulletin board that is indexed by a search engine "Hey world, anybody now how to solve this puzzle? Please post a reply", everybody else is going to inadvertantly stumble across it while they try to enjoy the puzzle.

 

True, but I guess if I started reading it and it said "How do I solve puzzle GC12345 which is a X type of puzzle", then I'd probably stop reading it if I didn't want the answer/clue.

 

With a number of puzzles, once you google how to solve it, it's almost the same thing. Eg: If they say take a*b*c*d+e, that's what you'll do too. If you look how to solve a sudoku puzzle, you will need to read the solution.

 

Is it because they named the cache specifically? It would be ironic as I never google a waypoint name Maybe I should bear that in mind

 

The last point is that a massive amount of cachers don't solve the puzzles, somebody else in a group did and the rest were told or they were there at the time. We've had people ask for 'clues' as well as just coordinates. We will give them a clue to get them on their way usually.

[+Red90]

.....everybody else is going to inadvertantly stumble across it while they try to enjoy the puzzle.

 

It is completely your choice to read the answer or spoiler. If YOU want to solve it without spoiler, then do not read spoilers. The solve then means something to YOU. If someone else uses a spoiler to solve it, the solve means something to THEM and these two things are different and do not relate to each other.

[+The Blue Quasar]

This time around I've decided to go with the concept of "I'm happy if people post spoilers or pictures" because reading the previous logs is an action of spoiling an aspect of the cache yeah yeah I know what's coming, a slew of excuses . Looking for help is another method of spoiling the cache for yourself. The listing page minus the previous logs and the gallery are all anyone needs to find any cache. Looking beyond that is opening yourself for having it spoiled in one way or another.

 

But I'm not your typical cacher, I think spoilers are fine. I also believe in free choice, meaning that it is up to each person to decide what content they will look at. It's just to risky to hope that looking for help won't yield too much of it.

 

BQ

[+graciious & twosips]

I am not opposed to asking for help, seeking information on the net, or with a paticular cache I have even asking for exact coordinates for the solution (I still haven't found someone willing to give them to me but I am trying).

 

I understand the original posters comments, about wishing they didn't see the answer online when doing a search for a clue, or hint. I guess it just comes down to how much do you read when you start to see more info than necessary I would stop at the point that gets me to the next step, and have something to refer back to if I got stuck again.

 

By the way.. if you want to do some long division in reverse for me, I have a set of puzzles I haven't been able to solve.

[+res2100]

Some people solve puzzles themselves. Some people ask for help to solve it, and some people ask others to solve puzzles for them. There is no right or wrong. The more important thing is to actually get out and find the cache. Caches are placed to be found and there's no point in hiding caches if no one is going to find them. I have placed over 60 puzzles caches and I am more than happy to give someone either a hint or even the solution so that they can find my cache and put a smile on their face.

[+KDotBlueDot]

I am surrounded by Geofellas, Res2100, Tequila, SearchinSwifts, Beagle-1, JuicePig, Lisdowney and many others who spent years before I came on the scene creating absolutely mind-blowing puzzles. These question marks mock me every time I click "MapIt". With these cachers around, if you aren't a great puzzle solver, you had better be a great problem solver. They figured out a way to get the answer through Yahoo. Wouldn't be my choice but I have browsed the site for similar puzzles to lead me toward the answer. Frankly I don't see this to be any different than those who tag along with the person who solves the puzzle. One just has created the right network over time and the other hasn't. Read the logs of the toughest finds. Count how many didn't ACTUALLY solve the puzzle themselves, but went along for the smilie. When I do it myself I get an extra sense of pride. Could care a less if others find a shortcut, and if anyone wants me to climb a tree (Numb3rs...ahem) just let me know because I don't even know where to begin with that puzzle!

[+willowbrookfarm]

So apparently, I am the only one who thinks it is wrong and spoils it for the puzzle designer and subsequent puzzle solvers to POST THE ENTIRE PUZZLE ON THE WEB SO OTHERS CAN POST THE SOLUTION? Many, if not most, puzzles require research on the web to work out the solution. It would be impossible otherwise. Please get the point, the action I object to is the complete posting of the cache requesting the solution to be posted. If this is ok, why not post the solution in your found it logs? You could encrypt it if you felt guilty.

[+mrcanoehead224]

I can only hope that the offending cacher reads this and ceases.

If I have an issue with a person or their actions, I generally take it to them directly first.

 

So apparently, I am the only one who thinks it is wrong and spoils it for the puzzle designer and subsequent puzzle solvers to POST THE ENTIRE PUZZLE ON THE WEB SO OTHERS CAN POST THE SOLUTION? Many, if not most, puzzles require research on the web to work out the solution. It would be impossible otherwise. Please get the point, the action I object to is the complete posting of the cache requesting the solution to be posted. If this is ok, why not post the solution in your found it logs? You could encrypt it if you felt guilty.

I can see why you object to the actions of these cachers but if you don't read the solution, then it wasn't spoiled for you. If others want to cut corners, that's their perogative. To me, an 'unearned' puzzle icon would mock me more than one still showing on my map.

 

I also get a sense of satisfaction when I solve a puzzle myself, even if someone has given me a nudge in the right direction. One time at an event, someone said 'topsy turvy' in relation to a puzzle cache I was having difficulty solving. I forgot about it and it wasn't until I discovered another way to solve it that their comment made sense to me. (oops, was this just a spoiler )

 

bottom line for me, worry less about how others do it and enjoy the game your way.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mrcanoehead224

[+Keith Watson]

I see asking help for a puzzle is no different that phone a friend. I know many people that will phone a friend that has previously found the cache when they can't it. Same applies for events. Many people will ask others at events for hints or help when they find a person that has found a cache that they can't. This practice has been going on for years.

 

I agree with res2100. I place caches to be found by many cachers, not just the two or three that can figure it out.

[+DanOCan]

So apparently, I am the only one who thinks it is wrong and spoils it for the puzzle designer and subsequent puzzle solvers to POST THE ENTIRE PUZZLE ON THE WEB SO OTHERS CAN POST THE SOLUTION?

 

I don't see the difference if someone asks for a solution on a non-geocaching forum or if they ask their friends. Heck, I wish I had thought of it! Part of my puzzle solving toolkit is going to consist of searching for these types of forums from now on.

[+The Blue Quasar]

So apparently, I am the only one who thinks it is wrong and spoils it for the puzzle designer and subsequent puzzle solvers to POST THE ENTIRE PUZZLE ON THE WEB SO OTHERS CAN POST THE SOLUTION?

 

Yes I do think that is wrong.

 

Many, if not most, puzzles require research on the web to work out the solution. It would be impossible otherwise.

 

Not sure that I agree with that, in at least that it would directly lead one to the solution a majority of the time

 

Please get the point, the action I object to is the complete posting of the cache requesting the solution to be posted. If this is ok, why not post the solution in your found it logs? You could encrypt it if you felt guilty.

 

I'm fine with that, all of it. It doesn't even concern me if people post solutions to any of my caches, detailed descriptions of where the hide is, or generally anything about my cache or those of other people. Is it wrong? Likely.

 

Even though I appreciate that it sucks when a cache gets spoiled, it seems that you are talking about a few isolated times and not a majority of cases. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

 

BQ

 

Yes I do think that is wrong.

[+willowbrookfarm]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

 

You are not misunderstanding me. Thanks.

 

Many, if not most, puzzles require research on the web to work out the solution. It would be impossible otherwise.

 

Many puzzle caches, at least in our area, require some sort of obscure knowledge in order to solve it. The one which started me on this whole rant is one of them. I don't think it is likely that 1 in 500 people would be recognize what the puzzle is. There is no reference, hint, or clue that would lead you in the correct direction. And even if you did recognize it, I am sure that 9 out of 10 people would still have to look up the info. Truth be told, the cache could have been better written, but my point is, it does require the cacher to look up something to solve it. And the obvious place of reference these days is the web. So when I googled the info I was looking for, I got 2 hits. One was the cache itself. The other was the solution I was complaining about.

[+t4e]

on the subject of puzzles i need to vent

 

why is it so hard for CO's to put a geochecker on their puzzle caches?

 

if i solve a puzzle a fair distance from home i want to know i have the right coordinates before i embark on a wild goose chase, and no i don;t want to have to email the CO to ask

[+willowbrookfarm]

on the subject of puzzles i need to vent

 

why is it so hard for CO's to put a geochecker on their puzzle caches?

 

if i solve a puzzle a fair distance from home i want to know i have the right coordinates before i embark on a wild goose chase, and no i don;t want to have to email the CO to ask

 

I agree. The geochecker should be on puzzle caches. A good geocache puzzle should have enough hints or redundancy in the solution that it should be just there to confirm you didn't make an error. There are some puzzles not so well designed that the solver has to keep thinking of ideas and running it by the checker until it finally concurs.

[+northernpenguin]

on the subject of puzzles i need to vent

 

why is it so hard for CO's to put a geochecker on their puzzle caches?

 

if i solve a puzzle a fair distance from home i want to know i have the right coordinates before i embark on a wild goose chase, and no i don;t want to have to email the CO to ask

 

Absolutely. I can't express the sadness that I feel when I see a complicated puzzle --- one where one has to guess what the puzzle is nevermind solve it --- and then no geochecker. Tend to toss those on the good ol' ignore list

 

There is a proposal on the Feedback site for an official Geocaching.com Geochecker. Suggest people go and contribute to that thread and help it get some traction, as an official one will get more usage than third party geocheckers currently have. An official geochecker would also provide a consistent user experience for geocachers.

[+Red90]

You can always send a note to the CO for coordinate confirmation.

[+Keith Watson]

You can always try and ask the CO for some some help as well. Most owners that want their cache to be found will give you some help if you are stuck and you ask nicely.

[+t4e]

You can always send a note to the CO for coordinate confirmation.

 

that's exactly what i specifically said i don't want to do, for various reasons

 

You can always try and ask the CO for some some help as well. Most owners that want their cache to be found will give you some help if you are stuck and you ask nicely.

 

but but i don't want help with the puzzle, i just want a quick and easy way to verify my solution

 

right now i do the same as northernpenguin, i ignore any puzzle cache that doesn't have a geochecker, just doesn't give me any incentive to solve it if i have no means of verifying it

 

and yes, i know, i don't have to find every cache out there, but i do like the challenge of a puzzle

Edited August 15, 2010 by t4e

[+Avernar]

right now i do the same as northernpenguin, i ignore any puzzle cache that doesn't have a geochecker, just doesn't give me any incentive to solve it if i have no means of verifying it

I'll still try to solve the ones without a geochecker that are close to home, but ones that are further away I just ignore. I don't want to waste time on a long distance trip searching for something that might not be where I think it is.

[+t4e]

right now i do the same as northernpenguin, i ignore any puzzle cache that doesn't have a geochecker, just doesn't give me any incentive to solve it if i have no means of verifying it

I'll still try to solve the ones without a geochecker that are close to home, but ones that are further away I just ignore. I don't want to waste time on a long distance trip searching for something that might not be where I think it is.

 

yes, that's my point too

 

interestingly enough i was working on one that is over 100kms from home and i posted a note the other day about adding the geochecker

the CO gracefully obliged just to remove it 2 days later

 

i guess that combined with the fact that is a PM cache leads me to believe that they don't want their cache to be found by anyone except a select few

 

ooh well life goes on but its too bad because it was a challenging puzzle

[+Keith Watson]

Sometimes I think some cache owners do place puzzles that are not solvable unless given the answer by the owner. Kind of private caches only meant for close friends of the owner.

[+KDotBlueDot]

What we need to remember though is that Geocaching.com is, in essence, a social networking site. Through the caches we connect with other cachers. They've been where we've been, experienced the same thing, brought a new perspective. In fact, it's one of the pioneers of online social networking. We just don't think of it that way. We see it as something not connected with the CO, but every time we find a cache we reach out to them and share.

 

I see puzzles as often a way to connect with the CO in a different way. I have no problem emailing the CO for help or verification, because my assumption is not that they don't want me to find their cache, but rather they want to connect with those who do.

 

Many a time I have read where the CO actually accompanies cachers to the find after they solve the puzzle.

[+fanglyfish]

t4e - to answer your question why I removed the geochecker.....

 

1) At one (or more) of the possible solutions there is a redirect to help find the final

2) This is a social game. I like to help. Email me.

Edited September 29, 2010 by fanglyfish

[+t4e]

t4e - to answer your question why I removed the geochecker.....

 

1) At one (or more) of the possible solutions there is a redirect to help find the final

2) This is a social game. I like to help. Email me.

 

but but i, like many others, want to solve the puzzles on my own, can i call you geochecker when i email you?

 

seriously now, once i can bring myself to stare at that picture again i will contact you, short of doing a headstand i tried everything

 

since we are over 100kms away we would contact you anyway to confirm the solution before heading out

 

thanks