To remove or Not remove this cache

[titsandbacon666]

I placed a cache near an old cave in Alabama that used to be a speakeasy back during the prohibtion. I placed this cache just this last weekend and it was published that same day. Since then, I have been emailed by other cachers explaining that the land is privately owned and that the cache needs to be removed.

 

Now before you take it upon yourself to be a geocache police officer (you know who you are), please allow me to explain why I placed a cache there.

 

1. This cave is easily accessable. There is a large gravel area that you can park at on the side of the road. There is also a very easy to walk trail that takes you to this cave. This trail has been recently smoothed out with a tractor making so easy to navigate, that a truck could drive down it.

 

2. This is not a remote cave. A lot of people go there to explore. In fact, while I was there, There was a father letting his kids play around the entrance and a small group of people inside exploring inside the cave. This is not a random occurence, there are plenty of times that I have been at this cave and seen this many people.

 

3. the cave isn't even dangererous. it is very easy to navigate through.

 

4. this cave isn't near someone's house and is far enough away from one that going here doesn't bother anybody.

 

The only downside to this cave is that people come at night sometimes to party. They leave garbage and spray paint the inside. It's sad that these people are ruining such an interesting place. because of this you can find some no tresspasing signs.

 

What harm will a cache do here? If the cache is removed, it won't stop the people that are trashing the place. It won't stop people from coming to this cave.

 

The main reason I put a cache here is because it is an interesting place that has a lot of history. I personaly CAN'T STAND caches that are in boring place such as next to a church or next to a pharmacy. Seems to me, the funner caches to find are the ones that take you to cool places. I'm almost confused that some cachers are willing to disagree with me on this particular cache.

 

maybe they enjoy the duller caches...

 

what's your opinion?

[+Chokecherry]

Regardless of how accessible the cave is, how cool it is, dangerous it is and whatever other neat factor there is to the cave.... If this cave is on privately owned land and you did not get permission from the people who own that land you should not have placed a cache there.

 

As the cache owner it is YOUR responsibility to get permission to place a cache on private property. And if you don't have that permission then you really have no business putting a cache out there.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Yeah, I think you are missing the point.

 

It may well be the nicest place in the world, and a lot of people go there (nice trail and all) -- regardless of what some father's may let their children do -- and it may very well not be within miles of a house, it may be a safe cave, but the fact is... apparently you did not obtain adequate permission to place the cache on private (or governed) property.

 

That friend, is the point of the matter. The placement is apparently in violation of the guidelines. You have been requested to move it (by other cachers -- have you made dialog with them?). Have you contacted the owners or governing body to inquire as a cache may be placed there?

 

You must have checked the box, acknowledging "Yes. I have read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache." Maybe you mistakenly checked the box w/o reading and understanding the guidelines.

 

IMO you should at least disable the cache, until you have satisfied the guidelines. If you cannot, the cache should be archived.

 

 

Not to be harsh, as your intent is probably good, but you are standing in left field with no glove.

[+BlueDeuce]

Regardless of how accessible the cave is, how cool it is, dangerous it is and whatever other neat factor there is to the cave.... If this cave is on privately owned land and you did not get permission from the people who own that land you should not have placed a cache there.

 

As the cache owner it is YOUR responsibility to get permission to place a cache on private property. And if you don't have that permission then you really have no business putting a cache out there.

 

I agree and just because everyone else is breaking the law is a poor excuse to lead cachers to the same place.

 

And how do you figure that no tresspasing signs, garbage and spray paint, is a funner place for a cache?

 

Seriously.

[+capdude]

I was with you up until the point at which you said that there was no tresspassing signs. Many caches are placed without permission (even though they shouldn't be) and probably 40% of the caches placed are outside of the guidelines in one way or anohter, but if there is an actual no trepassing signs then you are inviting finders to actually break the law. If the signs weren't there I would have said leave it. If it were placed out here in So Cal, a month after you remove it someone else would just put another one in it's place.

[+Chokecherry]

From the comment I saw on the cache page it seems very clear the landowner did not want caches there. He did after all ask for existing ones to be removed apparntly. I agree with others. Disable it until you get permission or archive it.

[titsandbacon666]

I was with you up until the point at which you said that there was no tresspassing signs. Many caches are placed without permission (even though they shouldn't be) and probably 40% of the caches placed are outside of the guidelines in one way or anohter, but if there is an actual no trepassing signs then you are inviting finders to actually break the law. If the signs weren't there I would have said leave it. If it were placed out here in So Cal, a month after you remove it someone else would just put another one in it's place.

 

yeh the signs were my concern as well. I've had to bypass a few no trespassing signs before to get to a cache. I was never bothered by it. Quite a few caches in my area look as if they are there without permission (one is near an old tunnel that can only be accessed by driving 3 miles down a pulled railway and walking accross an abandoned train trestle. I mean C'mon!).

 

I appreciate you at least somewhat understanding my thoughts on this cache.

 

now as for the other people... I'm leaving the cache there.

 

lol... U mad?

[+Ecylram]

I agree with the rest.

 

No matter how safe and interesting the the cache site is, it's private property. I vote for disabling the cache and moving it.

[MisterEFQ]

The only person whos mad is you. You cant handle being told that you are breaking the rules and not following the land owners wishes. It wouldnt be hard to find out the address of the land owner and send them a letter telling them of the situation.

 

Just like it wouldnt be hard for you to take the extra time to talk to them about placing the cache. Its thier land, respect it.

 

Excuse me, im off to go find some reallly dull caches.

[+Chokecherry]

Seems to me if the guidelines were followed in the first place and permission was obtained none of this would even be a discussion. So now you're openly stating not only did you not get permission but you are knowig going to leave it on land you know is private. This cache is begging for a needs archiving log.

 

And even if you don't care your behavior and like behavior is the reason why some legitimate cachers get a lot if flack. This behavior does nothing to move the hobby forward or better it in any way.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

We of the AGA (Alabama Geocachers Association) are well aware of this cave.

 

There have been caches there in the past and many of us have been there.

 

The land is now private and off-limits and you cannot place a cache nor even legally go there.

 

Sorry!

 

You are however invited to join your local geocachers in our AGA forum at DixieCachers.com to learn more about and share experiences with Alabama geocaching!

[+uxorious]

 

now as for the other people... I'm leaving the cache there.

 

lol... U mad?

 

I doubt if anyone on the forum is mad. However, I think you will be when the reviewer realizes the cache is on private property without permission, and archives this one.

 

It doesn't matter how great a spot it is or how much you want people to come there, private property is private property. If the owner doesn't want a cache there you won't be able to leave a cache there.

[+ArcherDragoon]

I was with you up until the point at which you said that there was no tresspassing signs. Many caches are placed without permission (even though they shouldn't be) and probably 40% of the caches placed are outside of the guidelines in one way or anohter, but if there is an actual no trepassing signs then you are inviting finders to actually break the law. If the signs weren't there I would have said leave it. If it were placed out here in So Cal, a month after you remove it someone else would just put another one in it's place.

 

yeh the signs were my concern as well. I've had to bypass a few no trespassing signs before to get to a cache. I was never bothered by it. Quite a few caches in my area look as if they are there without permission (one is near an old tunnel that can only be accessed by driving 3 miles down a pulled railway and walking accross an abandoned train trestle. I mean C'mon!).

 

I appreciate you at least somewhat understanding my thoughts on this cache.

 

now as for the other people... I'm leaving the cache there.

 

lol... U mad?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... now as for the other people... I'm leaving the cache there.

 

lol... U mad?

No need for mad, I just filed a NA since you won't take advice.

 

our Reviewer will do whatever is right.

 

Good luck!

[+capdude]

No need for mad, I just filed a NA since you won't take advice.

 

our Reviewer will do whatever is right.

 

Good luck!

 

So now you have learned the basic rule of geocaching! Do what you want and don't ask permission. Because if you have to ask, then you aren't going to like the answer. You were good up until you made the mistake of posting it here. You got it O.K.'d by the reviewer, but now it will probably be removed from the site. Hopefully you'll get at least a few finders before it's removed.

 

Hope it turns out well

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

No need for mad, I just filed a NA since you won't take advice.

 

our Reviewer will do whatever is right.

 

Good luck!

 

So now you have learned the basic rule of geocaching! Do what you want and don't ask permission. Because if you have to ask, then you aren't going to like the answer. You were good up until you made the mistake of posting it here. You got it O.K.'d by the reviewer, but now it will probably be removed from the site. Hopefully you'll get at least a few finders before it's removed.

 

Hope it turns out well

A NA would have been logged even if he hadn't mentioned it as soon as our local cachers saw the listing pop up. We're very familiar with the situation at this location.

[Difficult Run]

How can you in good conscience place a cache on private property without permission????

 

Somebody give me a linky to a good facepalm, please.

[+ScoutDog3]

I guess I am the "cache police" since I sent the following email to the CO when the cache published:

"I work for Blount County and talked to the new owner of the property where the main entrance to the cave is located shortly after he bought it. At that time he did not want trespassers on the property and asked me to remove the caches on his property and ask the cache owners to archive them. I think your cache is located on someone else's property so I can't speak for that land owner. But unless you have had contact with the property owner of the main entrance, you should probably modify the cache page so that it does not encourage people to trespass at the main entrance. I have not talked to the property owner in the last couple of months, but the no trespassing signs were possibly removed without his knowledge or permission. That has happened many times in the past. That does not change the fact that the cave is on private property. This is only intended to to let you know a little of the history of the other caches near the cave, not to influence any decision about your new cache."

 

I received no reply.

 

I only became aware of this thread when the "Needs Archived" was logged or I would have chimed in sooner.

 

The new owner gave me the impression that he was serious about protecting the property and erected several large "No Trespassing" signs - many of which were gone the last time I was in the area. I would hate for any unknowing cacher to have an unpleasant encounter in my county while hunting this or any other cache.

 

Also, I hope the CO continues to place good hides and continues to hunt the many others we have in the area that are in unique and interesting locations.

[+capdude]

No need for mad, I just filed a NA since you won't take advice.

 

our Reviewer will do whatever is right.

 

Good luck!

 

So now you have learned the basic rule of geocaching! Do what you want and don't ask permission. Because if you have to ask, then you aren't going to like the answer. You were good up until you made the mistake of posting it here. You got it O.K.'d by the reviewer, but now it will probably be removed from the site. Hopefully you'll get at least a few finders before it's removed.

 

Hope it turns out well

A NA would have been logged even if he hadn't mentioned it as soon as our local cachers saw the listing pop up. We're very familiar with the situation at this location.

 

Glad to hear that. Out here in So Cal no one knows how to use the NA option. The cache would have gotten at least 20, "good hides" before anything would have been said about it. Seem like anything goes out here. “No Trespassing”, “No Parking” and NPS land boundaries signs are only a suggestion. Not to mention school zones, rail road tracks, and mail boxes.

[+Ike 13]

I placed a cache near an old cave in Alabama that used to be a speakeasy back during the prohibtion. I placed this cache just this last weekend and it was published that same day. Since then, I have been emailed by other cachers explaining that the land is privately owned and that the cache needs to be removed.

 

... because of this you can find some no trespassing signs.

 

 

Sounds like a cool place, minus the part where I would have to knowingly break the law and could be arrested (or shot). There are a lot of great places that are privately owned. Not many allow geocaching because of past experiences like this. The more we place geocaches on privately owned (or controlled) land without permission the more places it will be banned. One bad cache can result in an entire area becoming off-limits, overturning a ban takes years.

 

now as for the other people... I'm leaving the cache there.

 

lol... U mad?

 

I'm not mad. I like how you told on yourself, and I hope you enjoy your local reviewer scrutinizing every future cache hide.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Archive log

 

[Archive] July 14 by jcro8829 (11 found)

 

She is dead. Give it a few more months and someone else will place a cache there again. Then you get the joy of killing it as well...

 

Thank you for doing the right thing!

 

Don't take this event personally, you just happened to hit on a particularly touchy spot to try to get around the permission issue. I can promise that I nor anyone else involved takes any pleasure in seeing a new cache be archived.

 

Several people are working directly with the owner of the cave property and we hope to see another cache there someday, but until we get permission placing a cache there will only throw a wrench in the works.

 

As I mentioned in my first post, join us in our local forum at http://www.DixieCachers.com, we really do enjoy and support new cachers.

[+Chrysalides]

Did the OP just geocide? I saw that he archived the original cache, and another one that didn't seem to have any issues.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Did the OP just geocide? I saw that he archived the original cache, and another one that didn't seem to have any issues.

I hope not, but if you do something and immediately a number of experienced folk tell you that you shouldn't, and your response is 'to heck with y'all, I will do what I want' then this may not be the game for you!

 

Maybe the other cache didn't have permission either and he archived it because this one was a lesson learned.

[+Chokecherry]

He hasn't been a member here very long. But I did enjoy the little fits today.

 

That being said once again a little leg work on the front end would have prevented this whole issue. Reading the guidelines would have prevented this. Hopefully it was a learning experience.

 

I take permission seriously. I personally don't want to ruin caching in an entire area because I was too lazy to make a couple phone calls and do the right thing. Hence why I still haven't hidden the cache I want to hide. I'm taking that aspect of it real seriously. Until I get what I believe to be adequate permission from the right entity I won't put something out there regardless of how cool the spot it.

[+ScoutDog3]

Did the OP just geocide? I saw that he archived the original cache, and another one that didn't seem to have any issues.

 

I also hope not! He seems to have the ability to hide some really good caches.

Edited July 15, 2010 by ScoutDog3

[+Chrysalides]

Did the OP just geocide? I saw that he archived the original cache, and another one that didn't seem to have any issues.

I hope not, but if you do something and immediately a number of experienced folk tell you that you shouldn't, and your response is 'to heck with y'all, I will do what I want' then this may not be the game for you!

 

Maybe the other cache didn't have permission either and he archived it because this one was a lesson learned.

One can hope, but my feeling is that he's still sore about this.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Did the OP just geocide? I saw that he archived the original cache, and another one that didn't seem to have any issues.

I hope not, but if you do something and immediately a number of experienced folk tell you that you shouldn't, and your response is 'to heck with y'all, I will do what I want' then this may not be the game for you!

 

Maybe the other cache didn't have permission either and he archived it because this one was a lesson learned.

One can hope, but my feeling is that he's still sore about this.

He's having a bad day. His cache gets creamed in this thread then he digs up an old thread from months ago by another geocide and gets creamed for doing that.

 

Hard to find such entertainment bad luck in the Getting Started forum!

[+radak9]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

Edited July 15, 2010 by radak9

[+Chrysalides]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

I think OP had sympathy of most right up to the "lol.... U mad?"

 

And OP just changed username from jcro to... well, see for yourself.

[+J the Goat]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

I think OP had sympathy of most right up to the "lol.... U mad?"

 

And OP just changed username from jcro to... well, see for yourself.

 

I was wondering how that got through

[+radak9]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

I think OP had sympathy of most right up to the "lol.... U mad?"

 

And OP just changed username from jcro to... well, see for yourself.

 

I was wondering how that got through

Well, I guess the OP decided to quit caching....

 

He at least decided to leave this forum - for a time out at least...

 

Oh well, it's sad that when someone is told something they don't like they throw a hissy fit. Time to grow up a bit, me thinks.

[+mtn-man]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

I think OP had sympathy of most right up to the "lol.... U mad?"

 

And OP just changed username from jcro to... well, see for yourself.

 

I was wondering how that got through

One change yourself. I've reported it already.

[+J the Goat]

I'm sorry, but just the mere mention of "No Trespassing" signs should have set off some major bells. In NY (and elsewhere afaik) walking past the NT sign and onto the private property is grounds for arrest.

 

And OP, sorry you feel hurt and mad, but you came here with the question. And it was one that you should have known the answer to before posting.

I think OP had sympathy of most right up to the "lol.... U mad?"

 

And OP just changed username from jcro to... well, see for yourself.

 

I was wondering how that got through

One change yourself. I've reported it already.

 

Is that "you've had one change yourself" or "it's one simple change you can do"? I was more referring to, if it was done through GC.com, how it was approved. When I changed my name, I assumed it was reviewed by somebody in somebodyland.

[+mtn-man]

You have the ability to change it one time. I am not really sure if it is reviewed by somebody in lily pad land or not. If yes, the change might have happened after they left today and they may not see it until tomorrow. In either case, I wanted to make sure they were aware of it and so I reported it to the contact address.

[+thedeadpirate]

We have a really cool cave system about 20 miles from here. I wanted to put a cache there. But as I started researching ownership, it became clear that there would be no cache placed. It's private land and the owner doesn't want anyone visiting the cave any longer. That's just the way it goes sometimes.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Mmmmmm...bacon!