Digging up hiding places...

[+Warturtle]

I realize that the rules state you cannot bury caches, but what if the cache is buried so it is sticking out and the top of the ammo box is at ground level? This cache would be on my own property, so national forest rules don't apply.

[+redtech]

I realize that the rules state you cannot bury caches, but what if the cache is buried so it is sticking out and the top of the ammo box is at ground level? This cache would be on my own property, so national forest rules don't apply.

 

I'm wondering that same thing. It sure seems to me that if its your own property, you can do what you want. I'm not in charge though.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

While not advisable (it sends the wrong message to others), burying on your own property is acceptable.

 

Not much else to say, really.

 

EDIT: The "message" to others, is from different angles:

1) Those that don't read or comprehend the guidelines suddenly see it as acceptable;

2) Those hunting the buried cache come unprepared as 'they aren't supposed to be buried';

3) It can certainly generate some unwanted emails/posts regarding buried caches.

 

Also, to clarify

so national forest rules don't apply.

isn't the reason for the "burying" guideline. The reason has nothing (much) to do with USFS rules, it has to do with the ecosystem in general. Edited July 12, 2010 by Gitchee-Gummee

[+Team Cotati]

I realize that the rules state you cannot bury caches, but what if the cache is buried so it is sticking out and the top of the ammo box is at ground level? This cache would be on my own property, so national forest rules don't apply.

 

I am not at all certain that private property enters the equation. But I can tell you, that if you hide this one in the manner that you describe, you'll be far from the first to do so.

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

You can do it on your own private property. But just because you can doesn't make it a good idea. You run the risk of having someone who is less knowledgeable, or less concerned with, the guidelines duplicating the hide elsewhere.

[+Team Cotati]

You can do it on your own private property. But just because you can doesn't make it a good idea. You run the risk of having someone who is less knowledgeable, or less concerned with, the guidelines duplicating the hide elsewhere.

 

I am curious, how did you make that determination?

[+Team Cotati]

OP, I wouldn't advise that you worry all that much about what others might do. You are responsible for you.

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

You can do it on your own private property. But just because you can doesn't make it a good idea. You run the risk of having someone who is less knowledgeable, or less concerned with, the guidelines duplicating the hide elsewhere.

 

I am curious, how did you make that determination?

 

Is this an honest question or are you just interested in playing your usual pointless games?.

 

Never mind. I now see the angle of your attack.

Edited July 12, 2010 by GOF's Sock Puppet

[+Castle Mischief]

Ask your reviewer. Be prepared to provide further detail and be prepared to be told no.

[+palmetto]

As a reviewer, if you explained that hide to me, I'd send to you Groundspeak for permission to publish it.

 

Note, there's nothing in the guideline that references who owns the property.

 

OFF LIMITS

Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other "pointy" object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#offlimit

 

A good place to start would be to send an email to contact@geocaching.com.

 

With Groundspeak's permission, I have published a cache on the cachers property in a hole they dug.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

As a reviewer, if you explained that hide to me, I'd send to you Groundspeak for permission to publish it.

 

Note, there's nothing in the guideline that references who owns the property.

 

OFF LIMITS

Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other "pointy" object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#offlimit

 

A good place to start would be to send an email to contact@geocaching.com.

 

With Groundspeak's permission, I have published a cache on the cachers property in a hole they dug.

 

I understand you're just trying to help someone get their cache published, but if Groundspeak did make an exception allowed someone to bury a cache on their own property, it still runs the risk of others seeing it as an example of how to place a cache and they might decide to bury a cache, possibly not on their own property, and submit it without telling the reviewer that it's buried.

 

Did Groundspeak grant permission to the cache owner that dug a hole on their property stipulate that the cache listing indicate that it was on private property *and* that permission was granted to dig a hole? Even if they did, there are many geocachers that will search for a cache without reading the listing beforehand and wouldn't see the disclaimer.

 

I think the "no buried geocaching" should be firm, without exceptions as it seems one of those guidelines that is often a target for those looking for a loophole.

[+TomToad]

It's my understanding that the no digging guideline is more about appearances than about the ground. If someone is trying to get permission from a land owner to hide a cache, and the land owner researches nearby caches; he might refuse it if he sees one that is buried for fear of cachers digging holes everywhere looking for it.

[+Warturtle]

It's my understanding that the no digging guideline is more about appearances than about the ground. If someone is trying to get permission from a land owner to hide a cache, and the land owner researches nearby caches; he might refuse it if he sees one that is buried for fear of cachers digging holes everywhere looking for it.

I would obviously make it known in the cache description that you do NOT need to dig to get it.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's my understanding that the no digging guideline is more about appearances than about the ground. If someone is trying to get permission from a land owner to hide a cache, and the land owner researches nearby caches; he might refuse it if he sees one that is buried for fear of cachers digging holes everywhere looking for it.

I would obviously make it known in the cache description that you do NOT need to dig to get it.

 

While it's not generally recommended there are quite geocachers that will find caches without reading the cache description. Considering that most modern handheld GPS units can hold 500 or more (some can hold 2000) waypoints, and thousands of points of interest it's pretty unlikely that one will have read the cache listing for every waypoint in ones GPS unit. One of the common methods of ensuring that those that seek a cache will read this listing is to create a simple puzzle cache., but then you're going to have some that will systematically ignore all puzzle caches and won't ever look for yours.

[Clan Riffster]

...but what if the cache is buried so it is sticking out and the top of the ammo box is at ground level?

Palmetto gave you the best answer you are going to get. Burying a cache is just a bad idea, all the way around, as noted by several other posters to this thread, however, if you absolutely must, you've been given the tools to accomplish your goal.

[+Walts Hunting]

You might try reading the guidelines.

 

If a "Pointy thing" is used to hide or get to the cache it is outside guidelines.

[+Team Cotati]

Burying a cache container, in and of itself, is not a bad idea.

 

I have never buried one but I have found a few and they were quite nicely done.

 

The main reason that I have never buried a cache container is that my interpretation of the guidelines leads me to believe that it is not allowed.

 

Apparently some cache hiders have been able to figure out how to bury cache containers and still remain within the guidelines.

 

I think that that is really cool.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

You might try reading the guidelines.

 

If a "Pointy thing" is used to hide or get to the cache it is outside guidelines.

 

Yes, but the intent of the guideline is not to prevent geocachers from using "pointy things". The intent is to prevent geocachers from creating holes in the ground, thus perpetuating the belief by many land managers that geocaching is about finding treasure. There are lots of ways that one can create a hole in the ground without using a "pointy object" (power washers, dynamite...) which would technically fall within the guideline. That doesn't mean that using explosives to create a hole in the ground to place a container is a good idea.

[+StarBrand]

Although such caches do exist - I really believe them to be outside of the intent of the guidelines. It certainly sends a bad message to other cachers and really isn't very good camo.

[ashnikes]

I wanted to do the exact same thing with a large ice cooler i was trying to hide (course not on my own land) bury it up to the lid, so it was sunk into the ground, i made the same mistake you just did about it, posted about this idea on the forums.

 

turns out my local reviewer reads the forums, quite often.

 

long story short, he put two and two together, and refused to publish my hide until i assured him this cache was no longer buried. I had to fill in the hole, and rehide the cache someplaces else. I wound up putting it in the wide open, and due to the surounding junk in the area it just looks liek another piece of it, so it hides itself pretty well in the wide open. it would have been more suspicious buried most of the way.

 

strange how that worked out, but i like it better above ground for this reason.

[+Warturtle]

For those of you following this thread, here was the response:

Officially no. Mostly because if people are starting to dig, they can

tear up a lot of ground. However if you have a sprinkler box, or

something similar on the corner of your property, I do not have a

problem with items like that. (though officially Groundspeak may)

 

BlueRajah

 

Maybe I'll make a decoy sprinkler box...

[+J the Goat]

I'm with the "don't bury anything anywhere" camp. Private property or otherwise, it's outside the guidelines as I read them. The points about being a bad influence on other cachers is a valid one I think, as is the fact that even if you're digging on your own property, you're still doing some injustice to the environment on some level.

 

I'd suggest finding another way to place your hide.

[Tahosa and Sons]

so national forest rules don't apply.

Read the guidelines (not rules) and what are these so called forest service rules that you are mentioning. I have a lot of caches on USFS lands and have not heard of any specific rules except no caches in Designated Wilderness Areas

[+tozainamboku]

There is some wild speculation about the intent of the guideline, so I might as well as mine.

 

I believe the intent of the guideline was to address the misconception of certain land owners or managers that geocaching was about looking for buried treasure. These land owner/managers may have had bad experiences in the past with treasure hunters using metal detectors digging where the shouldn't be digging. They perceived geocaching as having a potential to cause a similar problem. The guideline was created to counter this perception. Originally it simply said that caches wouldn't be buried in the ground and the you would not have to dig to find a geocache. Many geocachers took advantage of this to follow the example of the original cache and dig holes in order to provide some kind of hiding place for a cache. The top of the cache would be flush with the ground or covered in leaves, rocks, or loose soil the could be removed by hand only. This "loophole" bothered some park managers who saw a danger again with people digging where they shouldn't. So the guidelines were changed to prohibit digging in order to hide cache as well. I suspect that you could have simple said not to bury (or dig) without permission. However, park managers know that some people will place caches assuming they have adequate permission because there are already caches in park. In fact the park may be giving blanket permission to hide cache, so long as the guidelines are being followed. If someone found a buried cache in a park they may decide it's OK to bury other caches here. The guidelines don't make any explicit comment that burying is OK when you have permission, to avoid people making assumptions that they have adequate permission to bury in a park. I don't see any particular danger in copy cat hides when someone finds a cache on private property that is buried. I believe people understand that geocachers shouldn't be digging up the ground where they don't have permission.

[+MR57]

Ok this is perfect for me to answer. Your right you can't bury anything how would anybody ever find it. I made a nice concrete box to enclose my ammo box. then I buried the enclosure just under ground level. I bolted a trailer hitch ball to the top of lid. Then I glued something on it. don't want to give away what it is. It is a pretty neat and clever cache her in Vegas. People seem to like it. But yes you can see something on the ground. when you pull on it ammo box comes out of ground. Oh I didn't mention I also put a piece of carpet on lid and put glue all over it. then put dirt and rocks on it for cammoflage. It works perfect.

Edited July 14, 2010 by MR57

[Pup Patrol]

You don't need to dig a hole to give geocaching a bad name.

 

Look at the silliness that happened near here a few years ago, about a "virtual" cache!

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...111556&st=0

 

I recently read a blog where this ridiculous story was still being spread.

[+ironman114]

I wanted to do the exact same thing with a large ice cooler i was trying to hide (course not on my own land) bury it up to the lid, so it was sunk into the ground, i made the same mistake you just did about it, posted about this idea on the forums.

 

turns out my local reviewer reads the forums, quite often.

 

long story short, he put two and two together, and refused to publish my hide until i assured him this cache was no longer buried. I had to fill in the hole, and rehide the cache someplaces else. I wound up putting it in the wide open, and due to the surounding junk in the area it just looks liek another piece of it, so it hides itself pretty well in the wide open. it would have been more suspicious buried most of the way.

 

strange how that worked out, but i like it better above ground for this reason.

 

Why would you dig a hole on land that isn't yours? Did you have permission?

 

By not posting in the forums it may have been published, but only till someone reported it was buried, then you most likely would have had to pull it and fill in the hole anyway.

[+Warturtle]

but what if the cache is buried so it is sticking out and the top of the ammo box is at ground level?

 

Ok this is perfect for me to answer. Your right you can't bury anything how would anybody ever find it.

Please read it before you reply.

[+mchaos]

Here is the bottom line.

 

Reviewers are told not to publish any caches that are burred no matter where they are. no exceptions. They won't publish it.

 

Just find another way to place it according to guide lines without trying to find a way around them.

 

only way it will get published is if you do not say how it is hidden. I don't suggest it. You could get in trouble if they reviewer finds out.

[+Chokecherry]

There is a slightly evil side of me that would be tempted to bring a shovel out to a buried cache and start digging holes all around it using the excuse that my gps said it was right there but then I got some bounce.