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Coordinates constantly off..


mchaos

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Okay, I know this sort of thing has been discussed a zillion times....

 

"Ni!"

 

But, I just want to get the opinion of the forum.

 

I realized something recently about a particular CO near me. This person has pretty decent caches. No complaints about the containers, or placement, as well this CO seems to put good thought into their hides.

 

The thing I have realized recently is that, every single one of this particular persons caches has coords that area always off. By at least 40 feet, and in some cases over 80 feet.

 

In every extreme case of off coords this CO uses the excuse of "a lot of signal bounce" in the description.

 

I am not sure if this person either:

 

Is making bad coords to make the cache harder to find,

 

Is not letting the GPS settle in the cache placement,

 

or if the CO's GPS can't take an accurate reading if someones life depended on it. Although I know that this person owns and uses a Garmin 60c sx. Expensive, and supposedly accurate unit. With such a nice unit, you would think coords would be good.

 

Now I understand signal bounce. But this CO's coords are off in the open and not under wood cover. As well, Signal bounce is a random thing in the woods. When I have searched this persons caches, the coords were perfectly consistent. Meaning, it brought me to the same spot every time, some times with slight variation, but letting my gps settle, it always brought me to the same spot.

 

I am guessing that this CO is doing it on purpose to make the find harder. Which is a really lame thing to do since your are supposed to mark the exact cache location, (mystery cache would be the only exception) and not something way off to make it harder to find. I also notice that this CO puts the difficulties up on the cache pages.

 

The only other thing I can see it being, besides this person just having bought the worst Garmin 60c sx ever and got ripped, is that this person doesn't let the unit sit for a minute where the cache is and takes a waypoint without thinking.

 

But then there are the clues left on the cache page some times. How can you give clues to where it is unless you know the coords are off. Something like.." There is a lot of signal bounce here, but if you look from this spot you can see where the cache is hidden"

 

But I don't want to make a hasty assumption..

 

Well lets have it, what ya think?

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Is this person using a Iphone. They are not as reliable as Smartphones from my experience. (Iphones aren't smarthphones, there coords are off by 100 feet) but with real smartphone like androids or an actual GPS they are usually accurate.

 

EDIT: I gotta buy a nano and purposefully make the coords off and call it "signal bounce" seriously... I'm doing this.

Edited by Coldgears
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Is this person using a Iphone. They are not as reliable as Smartphones from my experience. (Iphones aren't smarthphones, there coords are off by 100 feet) but with real smartphone like androids or an actual GPS they are usually accurate.

 

EDIT: I gotta buy a nano and purposefully make the coords off and call it "signal bounce" seriously... I'm doing this.

When used properly, an iPhone hide will land the cache closer than the error rates noted in the OP. Especially if the hider takes care (doubtful) to take several readings and average them.

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But then there are the clues left on the cache page some times. How can you give clues to where it is unless you know the coords are off. Something like.." There is a lot of signal bounce here, but if you look from this spot you can see where the cache is hidden"

 

Makes me think that the problem is not with the equipment being used. I could be wrong but that is the impression I get.

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Ok this is how I see it.

You could talk to this guys and ask how his doing...maybe ask to go out with him next time

and " LEARN " how to place a Geocache.

 

I Own 1 cache so far and I did my best to provide a Good coord. People give me a good feedback

about my work ( Coords and the Container )

 

My second cache will be out soon and I have been out there for a Month with 2 GPS units

Oregon 400Tand my old Garmin 60C

Even with these 2 I don't get the coords to the place I want. Lots of tree cover and many many mosquitos

take piss me off ...It's hard to stay there too long.

 

But found 2 Cords that match. so that is the one I will use.

I will see what the people will post about coords this time.

 

Just talk to the guy, I would love to show how I do it. and If Im doing wrong I would like to

Learn a better and correct way of doing...

 

My 2 cents.

M.TEX

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The Garmin 60 has a function called AVERAGE.

If you are MARKing a waypoint to save, you can then select AVERAGE.

The unit will continue to capture a new reading every half second and Average them all together.

Perhaps you can drop a hint at the next event.

 

I would just post the coordinates you find the cache at....and I'd do it on every one of this hiders caches.

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Are they always off in the same direction as well as roughly the same distance?

 

Several years ago, I attended a private party of geocachers, where we did an experiment (which has also been done hundreds of times at events, etc) where we were all given a set of coordinates and a flag to put down at our "ground-zero". Most were clustered pretty close to each other, but one particular cacher, who was kind of known for having bad coords on her caches, was about 50 feet from the rest, even after repeated attempts. I don't know the reason for this from a technical standpoint, but I saw it and believed it.

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Oh, you mean the one I spent an hour searching around the woods for ? Yea that wasn't even remotely fun. It's like placing a cache in a state park and giving co ordinates for the parking lot ..... :laughing:

 

Hate to say that I am glad, but if you found that one your first time out I would feel sad because I have been there several times.

 

Seriously, I just put down the gps and looked for a good spot for a cache and I found it.

 

What happened to, " I'm not leaving till I find it."

 

Are they always off in the same direction as well as roughly the same distance?

 

Several years ago, I attended a private party of geocachers, where we did an experiment (which has also been done hundreds of times at events, etc) where we were all given a set of coordinates and a flag to put down at our "ground-zero". Most were clustered pretty close to each other, but one particular cacher, who was kind of known for having bad coords on her caches, was about 50 feet from the rest, even after repeated attempts. I don't know the reason for this from a technical standpoint, but I saw it and believed it.

 

i thought about that. They are different.

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Oh, you mean the one I spent an hour searching around the woods for ? Yea that wasn't even remotely fun. It's like placing a cache in a state park and giving co ordinates for the parking lot ..... :laughing:

 

Hate to say that I am glad, but if you found that one your first time out I would feel sad because I have been there several times.

 

Seriously, I just put down the gps and looked for a good spot for a cache and I found it.

 

What happened to, " I'm not leaving till I find it."

 

 

It was getting dark.....wah

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Oh, you mean the one I spent an hour searching around the woods for ? Yea that wasn't even remotely fun. It's like placing a cache in a state park and giving co ordinates for the parking lot ..... :laughing:
Just consider it to be a relic hide. That's how they all used to be. Many times now, I've been back to parks where caches had been hidden back when I first started, and I realize, "Geeze... I searched over there, and over there, and even over there, and that was considered normal with the old units!!" So, enjoy the nostalgia. ;)
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If the hider's numbers were consistently off X feet in Y direction, I would simply take that into account when looking for their caches. :D

Yes, I have seen this in my area and never felt the need to complain. ;)

I have heard others complain that HIDER X's numbers are always off, but when I look for them the numbers are really pretty good. B)

There are too many variables to determine WHOSE GPS is not quite correct. :laughing:

Of course, if the hider were using a survey-grade GPS with a four-hour data collection window, I might defer to their numbers being somewhat better than mine... ;)

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But then there are the clues left on the cache page some times. How can you give clues to where it is unless you know the coords are off. Something like.." There is a lot of signal bounce here, but if you look from this spot you can see where the cache is hidden"

 

Makes me think that the problem is not with the equipment being used. I could be wrong but that is the impression I get.

 

Well, as GOF's sock puppet knows, we have had some success in our area with two totally independent n00b teen cache placers with soft coords through constructive, yet non-confrontational cache logs. And a little reviewer intervention, but I have no clue who "blew them in", and did that. I cannot predict how this would work for supposedly responsible adults who intentionally mark coordinates off to make the cache "trickier" though. :laughing:

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Ni! Ni! Ni!

I thought we had enough monty python on this forum... Now we have monty python stock puppets... Wonderful...

Agreed. I'm getting very tired of these "Ni! posts. They are like an Ashnike and a Pinehurst post rolled into one. I particularly cringe when I see it as a response to a totally reasonable question by a newbie.
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Ni! Ni! Ni!

I thought we had enough monty python on this forum... Now we have monty python stock puppets... Wonderful...

Agreed. I'm getting very tired of these "Ni! posts. They are like an Ashnike and a Pinehurst post rolled into one. I particularly cringe when I see it as a response to a totally reasonable question by a newbie.

 

On top of that, British humor is not the least bit funny. :laughing:

 

But I do kind of like the late Benny Hill speeded up with hot chicks chasing after him with sticks and stuff.

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I know that this person owns and uses a Garmin 60c sx.

What kind of GPSr are you using? :laughing:

 

I have a triton 400. A unit that has been said to have not the greatest accuracy, however, I find that it is spot on and consistent. Once in a while I find some soft coords, but for the most part it takes me right to the gz. Most of the time I can drop my gps at gz and hit the cache, (figuratively speaking.)

 

As well, with the exception of 2 of my caches, where I marked the coords wrong that I placed, I have never had any trouble with the coords for my cache. I would move the cursor and forget to reset it before I would mark it.

 

The amount that I find this persons coords to be off is a great amount.

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I'd have to see. If I do another of the specific CO, then I will post coords.

 

EDIT: I just checked out some of the caches. I see other people posting updated coords, yet the CO has never changed the coords for the cache on the page.

Edited by mchaos
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I know that this person owns and uses a Garmin 60c sx.

What kind of GPSr are you using? :ph34r:

 

I have a triton 400. A unit that has been said to have not the greatest accuracy, however, I find that it is spot on and consistent. Once in a while I find some soft coords, but for the most part it takes me right to the gz. Most of the time I can drop my gps at gz and hit the cache, (figuratively speaking.)

 

As well, with the exception of 2 of my caches, where I marked the coords wrong that I placed, I have never had any trouble with the coords for my cache. I would move the cursor and forget to reset it before I would mark it.

 

The amount that I find this persons coords to be off is a great amount.

 

First, you are gonna find that someone owning a Magellan complaining about bad coords will be found as quite ironic by many in the forums.

 

While not a big fan of Fisher Price's iphone, your original post sounds a little more like inexperience on both the finder and hiders part, not necessarily a equipment failure.

 

You state the coords were off by anywhere from 40 to 80 feet. If under tree cover or in an urban setting 40 feet means the CO had a +/- of 20 feet and the seeker had similar. This can happen even if the CO lets the GPSr "settle". Add in other factors such as weather, time of year it was hidden, etc., either of your GPSr's may be to blame for the differences in coords.

 

To be candid, the statement "Most of the time I can drop my gps at gz and hit the cache" indicates that most caches you find are hidden with a triton 400 with exactly the same error shift under exactly the same conditions. Very unlikely most of the time.

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On top of that, British humor is not the least bit funny. :ph34r:

 

But I do kind of like the late Benny Hill speeded up with hot chicks chasing after him with sticks and stuff.

 

Oh TWU my friend,,,,, Monty Python RULES! The Holy Grail and the movie about me are cinematic masterpieces :)

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Signal bounce - more properly called multipath propogation is a real problem with GPS in urban canyons or near near vertical cliffs. It makes getting accurate coordinates difficult. It sounds like this cache owner is realizing that he can't get good coordinates at ground zero so he is positing coordinates some distance away and hopes you use the hint or read the cache description to find the cache once you get nearby. This used to be a common way to deal with multipath issues. In more recent times, the guidelines have been interpreted that coordinates for traditional caches should be accurate and reflect the actual cache locations. If you want to deal with multipath by taking someone to an area where the can get a good reading and then use hints to get them to the final, this should be listed as an offset multi-cache. Some cache owners are probably not aware of this interpretation, or they simply don't want to use multi-cache because some people ignore multi-caches.

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I would just post the coordinates you find the cache at....and I'd do it on every one of this hiders caches.

 

yep

 

also, what Toz just posted is spot on.

 

I've seen this a number of times. Coords for clearing, hint will get you from clearing to cache. Cache listed as a traditional, and the coords aren't quite bad enough to flat out assume that the cache owner wasn't posting the best coords they could get.

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The term constantly off, triggers an inquiry in my mind, so I looked for logs of caches that you have done that show a consistent variance in coordinates. I am not readily able to find them-so a for instance might help-I too am from NJ, and most of the folks hiding here are trying to produce an entertaining hide and I don't know of anyone putting out "off coords as a matter of course"

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On top of that, British humor is not the least bit funny. :ph34r:

 

But I do kind of like the late Benny Hill speeded up with hot chicks chasing after him with sticks and stuff.

 

Oh TWU my friend,,,,, Monty Python RULES! The Holy Grail and the movie about me are cinematic masterpieces :)

 

Tried them many times on the urging of other people, and nope, don't get Monty Python, never will. By the way, I can't find a single genuine Benny Hill being chased video (usually by women in lingerie) on YouTube. Not a one. Just a bunch of people making spoofs.

 

Ni! Ni! Ni!

I thought we had enough monty python on this forum... Now we have monty python stock puppets... Wonderful...

Agreed. I'm getting very tired of these "Ni! posts. They are like an Ashnike and a Pinehurst post rolled into one. I particularly cringe when I see it as a response to a totally reasonable question by a newbie.

 

Ashnike and Pinehurst? Don't TheBellDingers and King Riched get any love? How soon we forget. King Riched was the best ever, hands down.

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I realized something recently about a particular CO near me. This person has pretty decent caches. No complaints about the containers, or placement, as well this CO seems to put good thought into their hides.

 

The thing I have realized recently is that, every single one of this particular persons caches has coords that area always off. By at least 40 feet, and in some cases over 80 feet.

 

In every extreme case of off coords this CO uses the excuse of "a lot of signal bounce" in the description.

 

Curious. I've done a lot of geocaching in Northwest Jersey (over a thousand finds). I've yet to run across a cacher with a number of hides 'consistantly off', or using the excuse 'signal bounce'. Lots of cachers and caches. Perhaps I've missed hunting this owner's caches? (I can think of a few in Bergen County, but they've stopped hiding.) E-mail the CO's name, and we can compare notes.

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I have found that my Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx consistantly puts me 10-15 feet southeast of every cache that I search for. It can be really obnoxious when searching. Maybe the cache hider that you're speaking of has a similar problem when they are hiding caches.

 

On a side note: Does anybody know what might cause this or how I could fix it? If the unit was under warrantly I'd contact Gramin, but it's not a big enough problem to pay for. Most caches I search for I'm putting the GPS away at 10 feet anyways.

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I know that this person owns and uses a Garmin 60c sx.

What kind of GPSr are you using? :)

 

I have a triton 400.

Oh. That explains it. You just have to do the Magellan shift. Problem solved. ;)

No shift needed. my unit has always worked very accurate for me. Also, I have the accuracy displayed on the screen. I make sure I have good accuracy. Best I can get in heavy woods in 18 - 22 feet accuracy. But even with that my unit brings me on top of caches. Now there are a lot of times it brings me within 5 to 10 feet of a cache, but its not the 40 to 80 feet off I speak of. I have never had more off coords then with this person.

 

I realized something recently about a particular CO near me. This person has pretty decent caches. No complaints about the containers, or placement, as well this CO seems to put good thought into their hides.

 

The thing I have realized recently is that, every single one of this particular persons caches has coords that area always off. By at least 40 feet, and in some cases over 80 feet.

 

In every extreme case of off coords this CO uses the excuse of "a lot of signal bounce" in the description.

 

Curious. I've done a lot of geocaching in Northwest Jersey (over a thousand finds). I've yet to run across a cacher with a number of hides 'consistantly off', or using the excuse 'signal bounce'. Lots of cachers and caches. Perhaps I've missed hunting this owner's caches? (I can think of a few in Bergen County, but they've stopped hiding.) E-mail the CO's name, and we can compare notes.

 

Im not looking to outright bash any one. I am not going to share any names. We can leave it as an anonymous discussion.

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I know that this person owns and uses a Garmin 60c sx.

What kind of GPSr are you using? :)

 

I have a triton 400.

Oh. That explains it. You just have to do the Magellan shift. Problem solved. ;)

No shift needed. my unit has always worked very accurate for me. Also, I have the accuracy displayed on the screen. I make sure I have good accuracy. Best I can get in heavy woods in 18 - 22 feet accuracy. But even with that my unit brings me on top of caches. Now there are a lot of times it brings me within 5 to 10 feet of a cache, but its not the 40 to 80 feet off I speak of. I have never had more off coords then with this person.

 

I realized something recently about a particular CO near me. This person has pretty decent caches. No complaints about the containers, or placement, as well this CO seems to put good thought into their hides.

 

The thing I have realized recently is that, every single one of this particular persons caches has coords that area always off. By at least 40 feet, and in some cases over 80 feet.

 

In every extreme case of off coords this CO uses the excuse of "a lot of signal bounce" in the description.

 

Curious. I've done a lot of geocaching in Northwest Jersey (over a thousand finds). I've yet to run across a cacher with a number of hides 'consistantly off', or using the excuse 'signal bounce'. Lots of cachers and caches. Perhaps I've missed hunting this owner's caches? (I can think of a few in Bergen County, but they've stopped hiding.) E-mail the CO's name, and we can compare notes.

 

Im not looking to outright bash any one. I am not going to share any names. We can leave it as an anonymous discussion.

 

First, I assume you know that the accuracy is the software's best guess.

 

Since we have now moved into a fictional example, let's use your numbers. Of course the CO numbers could actually be off.

 

You said your "accuracy" was 18 to 22 feet. Assuming the possibility that the CO had similar accuracy had they also been using a Magellan, this would mean a radius of 44 feet as a realistic possibility. As such, the numbers do not seem that far off.

 

Of course if there was a real cache to look at, with other logs showing a similar problem, there may be a different conclusion.

 

Its not "bashing" someone if it helps correct an unintentional issue.

Edited by baloo&bd
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Since we have now moved into a fictional example, let's use your numbers. Of course the CO numbers could actually be off.

 

You said your "accuracy" was 18 to 22 feet. Assuming the possibility that the CO had similar accuracy had they also been using a Magellan, this would mean a radius of 44 feet as a realistic possibility. As such, the numbers do not seem that far off.

 

Except that it doesn't work that way. GPS errors on different days are not coherent, so a better estimate of the expected error distance is sqrt(22^2 + 22^2) = 22 * sqrt(2) = about 34 feet. That corresponds to my experience; I have only rarely found a geocache more than 35 feet from my GZ, and in those cases there were either problems with the hider's coords or else the GPS sgnal was severely compromised (not just by trees).

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Here is what I base is off of.

 

I have found about 100 finds with my triton 400. Out of all those finds, I have rarely found coords to be off as wildly as this particular CO's hides.

 

Most of the time it brings me right to the immediate area of the cache, or right on top of it. Also, I have seen other peoples caches be off, not as much as the CO's who's coords are always off, but I have seen them to be right on some times, and off by a small amount. This could be haste in marking the coords, and or just the usual things like signal bounce. in most cases I am within a few steps of the cache. As well I have used this unit against an older magellan explorist 210, a Mio Moov 200 with beeline gps, earth mate, and a 60CSx.

 

It was defiantly better then the mio and older magellan, but was just as accurate as the others. I saw nothing that would suggest that the T400 is any less accurate then the others.

 

So after this experience when I see coords off as much as this CO's, and they are always off. This person has a bunch of hides. There hasn't been one that took me right to the cache.

 

Also, when finding several caches in a day, going one to another, and when you gps brings you right to every find but the specific CO's, then its not my unit that has the problem.

 

There is a couple caches of this person near by. Tomorrow I am going to see where my unit takes me to see if they are consistently off. I already know one is off, I had to go back a few times to find it. Every time my gps took me to the same spot. In the end I put down the gps and looked around for good places to hide a cache. Finally found it, 80 feet away from the place that my gps consistently took me.

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We had asked for a for instance, we did not see one, so we can't really comment any further. I looked at logs, have done some of the caches in that geographical area, do not find any anomoly (such as power line shredding) or rock cut deflection and the tree cover is no more or less than found in the broader geographical area. If you are suggesting that the hider purposefully soft coords, I don't see it. Harry Dolphin whose opinions, I value, at least those dealing with caching--seem to fall into the same area. Just not seeing it.

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Went to the most recent one I did, and I went with my Mio Moov 200 (hacked with beelinegps) and my triton.

 

I did some testing. I found that both my mio and my triton both bring me to the same place, 60 some odd feet away from where it is.

 

That's 2 completely different GPS units. One is a mobile GPS. the other is a hand held. If that doesn't give a broad enough spectrum for a test, I dunno what will.

 

I am not gonna run all over kingdom come testing all of this persons caches. Beings that the day I hunted this cache it brought me to the same spot as this time with 2 different units, and as well I emailed another finder confirming that it is off to them as well, that's enough for me that its not just me, and these caches are off either by accident, or deliberately. whichever.

 

I am done worrying about it, I will just have to keep in mind when I search for this CO's hides that I should expect an error of anywhere between 40 and 80 feet from my experience.

 

As for any one complaining I didn't give any examples: I am not looking to tick any one off by complaining about their caches. There is always the chance that I am completely wrong even with the evidence I have,(even tho I feel I am right about them being off) In which case it would be a jerky thing to put someones name out there saying all of their caches are off, if they are not, and ostracize them.

 

For information and opinion of the forum, I do not have to mention one of the cache's from this specific CO.

 

All that is needed to know is:

 

Every cache I have found from this CO has seemed to be off. It ranges from 40 feet, to 80. The once that are 40 feet I wouldn't care about except a lot are more then that.

 

I have tested at least one with 2 different GPS units.

 

I have emailed one other person asking about accuracy and they agreed it was off.

 

The CO mentions "Signal bounce" on a lot of cache pages.

 

While hunting my GPS consistently brought me to the same spot not near the actual GZ.

 

The best thing I have herd that can explain this is, "wrong datum" which would make the most sense unless this person is just trying to make the caches harder.

 

Also, One of the CO's hides was not in heavy tree cover. It had some. This one was off by 80 feet. In the area, there was another one from this person. Off by almost 100 feet. Both instances signal bounce was mentioned to be heavy. In the same area there was another cache from some one else, in heavy tree cover. As well the camo of this one was exceptional. Really amazing. My GPS was reading 30 feet accuracy in that heavy cover. It took me about 30 feet from the cache. I found this one in less then 5 minutes, because even tho it was 30 feet away, I was still in view of where it was. Upon letting my gps settle after finding it, it showed I was only 20 feet from the cache, standing at the cache. So letting it sit let it catch up.

 

The second hid from the CO in question was under some what heavy tree cover, and was around 30 feet accuracy on the unit. But 100 feet vs 30 feet is a big difference.

 

Everything I see points too this persons caches being off.

 

EDIT: I have also had some one I know confirm with another GPS that he is going to the same place as I was on one of them.

Edited by mchaos
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