Difference Multi / Mystery?

[+Fjordi]

Hi everbody,

 

I want to hide a new cache and I am not sure whether it should be a Multi or Mystery.

 

I don't want people to solve a mystery at home, but they should come to the location and solve it there to get the cache (with the help of an information board and something written on a builiding).

 

But then I think, it looks somehow like a multi?

 

But I have already found Mysteries, where you had to go to a certain location, and due to some hints you had to find your way to the cache.

It means: you didn't have to calculate the final coordinates. Just work out the clues and get to the location.

 

So is it automatically a multi, when you have to work out numbers to get the coordinates or can it somehow be a Mystery as well?

 

I am a bit confused now.

 

Best regards,

Lisa

[DannyCaffeine]

That would be a multi.

 

A multi has multiple waypoints. It does not matter how they are determined, either by finding containers with coords or solving puzzles.

 

A mystery/puzzle cache just has one singular waypoint, the final.

 

Hope that helps,

DannyC

[+Fjordi]

Ok, so it is determined by the number of waypoints in the listing...?

 

But I have GC1XGH9 on my mind. The listing says, you should go to the castle which is located at the header coordinates.

And then: "Go to the main entrance of the castle. Have a look at the beautiful castle and leave the red "V" to your right. Go ~100m down the street until you see your image. Don't be afraid because somewhere near this point you will (hopefully) find the cache."

 

The red "V" is written on a pylon and "your image" is a street mirror. And the hint is magnetic and green - that's the bridge railing you can see from the point where the mirror is.

 

So you don't adapt yourself by the help of coordinates. You have to interpret the clues right and you don't get final coordinates. It is some kind of riddle...

 

And I would like to place the cache like that.

[+Harry Dolphin]

That would be a multi.

 

A multi has multiple waypoints. It does not matter how they are determined, either by finding containers with coords or solving puzzles.

 

A mystery/puzzle cache just has one singular waypoint, the final.

 

Hope that helps,

DannyC

 

This is not correct. A mystery can have many stages. If you solve a puzzle to get to stage 1, and find another puzzle there to determine the final, it is still a puzzle. Or even if that stage just gives you the coords for the final, it is a mystery because you had to solve a puzzle. The big difference is that, for a mystery cache, there is nothing at the listed location. You need to solve the mystery to find the correct location/starting point.

Example: I have a cache where the coords take you to a sign. Derive the coords from something on the sign. That is a multi. If you had to solve a puzzle to determine the coords for the sign, then it would be a mystery/puzzle cache.

[+briansnat]

Ok, so it is determined by the number of waypoints in the listing...?

 

No. Bad info. The general rule of thumb (there are exceptions) is that if there is something at the posted coordinates that will lead you to the next stage or the final, then it is a multi. If there is nothing at the posted coordinates (they are just a place holder), then it is a puzzle/mystery.

[+palmetto]

I just had this very conversation with a cacher. A Mystery (Unknown on the cache submit form) may have many stages. A multi-cache may have some arithmetic, logic, or special information needed, or physical puzzles along the way.

 

There's a gray area where one type blends into the other.

 

If your expectation is that most cachers can start on the cache, and using information on the cache page and on the sites you send them to, complete the cache in a single trip, not needing to go elsewhere for research, or take time for a complex puzzle, it can be a multi-cache. If it seems more likely that some cachers will be unable to figure out how to proceed, will fail to follow your intent (riddle) and may have to take the available information and do some research or puzzle solving, it's a Mystery.

 

In the U.S, the tendency is to create as Mystery pretty low on the scale of simple math, logic, or special knowledge in a cache, rather then use Multi-cache type.

 

You can ask the reviewer for their advice when you submit the cache. They'll have a good understanding of the local norms. Be careful that your "riddle" cache involves use of a gps! there must be some specific point referenced by accurate coordinates needful to the find.

[+narcissa]

If you use information obtained at given waypoints to solve it, it's a multi.

[cezanne]

Be careful that your "riddle" cache involves use of a gps! there must be some specific point referenced by accurate coordinates needful to the find.

 

A very good point. Thanks for mentioning that. The cacher who has asked the question might easily get misled by the existence of many caches in Austria for which the GPS-r is not really an integral part. The review policy has, however, become more strict over the last months. Not that experienced cachers, however, often take the example of other caches and that might get dangerous (at least in the sense that the reviewers will not publish the cache in the intented way and thus increases the necessary effort both on the side of the cache hider as well as on the reviewer side).

 

Cezanne

[+dfx]

But I have GC1XGH9 on my mind. The listing says, you should go to the castle which is located at the header coordinates.

And then: "Go to the main entrance of the castle. Have a look at the beautiful castle and leave the red "V" to your right. Go ~100m down the street until you see your image. Don't be afraid because somewhere near this point you will (hopefully) find the cache."

as already mentioned, this cache apparently does not require use of GPS and therefore very likely isn't a valid listing on gc.com. it could be listed as letterbox hybrid, but then the container would have to be a proper letterbox (a micro is pretty much disqualified from that).

 

aside of that, the "mystery/puzzle/unknown" cache type is the "catch-all" of the cache types. it's perfectly valid to have a cache that's really a multi-cache listed as mystery cache, and in fact there's quite a few caches around that are listed like that. heck, you can even have a traditional cache listed as mystery cache if you want to. of course such a listing would be very confusing to the experienced cacher and the CO should rather select the cache type that's the best fit, but if for whatever reason the CO doesn't know which cache type he should choose (and can't be bothered to ask anyone else), the "mystery" type is always a valid choice, even if it's not a good one.

Edited July 7, 2010 by dfx

[+briansnat]

...but then the container would have to be a proper letterbox (a micro is pretty much disqualified from that).

 

I've found micro letterboxes and LB hybrids.

[+dfx]

I've found micro letterboxes and LB hybrids.

a micro with room for both log and a stamp? i'm sure they exist (the exception confirms the rule) but must be very rare. the one and only LB hybrid that's listed as a micro anywhere close to here is 90 km away, and it's in fact a regular ammo can.

[+palmetto]

this cache apparently does not require use of GPS and therefore very likely isn't a valid listing on gc.com. it could be listed as letterbox hybrid,

 

No, the requirement for use of GPS is part of the Letterbox definition:

 

they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

[cezanne]

this cache apparently does not require use of GPS and therefore very likely isn't a valid listing on gc.com. it could be listed as letterbox hybrid,

 

No, the requirement for use of GPS is part of the Letterbox definition:

 

they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues.

 

That's true, but dfx used to live in Austria. In Germany and Austria there has been an era where some (most)

reviewers encouraged cachers to submit caches where the hunt is directed via clues as letterbox hybrids.

Maybe I also should mention that there is quite some demand for a cache type bsed on clues in both Germany and Austria as there does not exist any reasonable letterboxing community there (the situation is a bit better in Germany than in Austria).

 

Cezanne

Edited July 7, 2010 by cezanne

[+Walts Hunting]

I would submit it with the designation that you feel is appropriate and if the reviewer sees it different he/she will tell you to change it and resubmit. Speaking from experience.

[+redsox_mark]

 

In the U.S, the tendency is to create as Mystery pretty low on the scale of simple math, logic, or special knowledge in a cache, rather then use Multi-cache type.

 

 

That is interesting. I found a multi recently (here in England) - a typical one with several "question to answer" waypoints, needing to collect clues and do some simple math. There was a log from a US based cacher which said "in the US, this would be a mystery cache".

[+roziecakes]

 

In the U.S, the tendency is to create as Mystery pretty low on the scale of simple math, logic, or special knowledge in a cache, rather then use Multi-cache type.

 

 

That is interesting. I found a multi recently (here in England) - a typical one with several "question to answer" waypoints, needing to collect clues and do some simple math. There was a log from a US based cacher which said "in the US, this would be a mystery cache".

 

Not always though, around here in Oregon, there are several multis like that. Here is one I example I attempted the other day, which unfortunately I DNF'd due to seeing a bear... but that I'll go back to finish later.

GCMV93

 

And an example of a puzzle that has several waypoints (and a cache we're looking forward to finding): GC283WK

[+tozainamboku]

What us the point of the new Field Puzzle attribute? I assume it means that you can work the puzzle in the field. That usually means that you will need to do some simple math using information you acquired at a multi-stage or at a Question to Answer additional waypoint. My understandind is that you can currently only use this attribute on a mystery/unknown type cache and not on a multi.

 

The only point I can see with this attribute is that someone may want to use GSAK to load field puzzles into their GPS along with solved puzzles and not load unsolved puzzles. I have occasionally been able to work puzzle that were meant to be be solved before going out while I was in the field however. And on more than one occasion, after collecting data in the field, I needed to go home to check my numbers before I was able to find the cache. So I don't know that I would find the attribute that useful.

[+redsox_mark]

 

Not always though, around here in Oregon, there are several multis like that. Here is one I example I attempted the other day, which unfortunately I DNF'd due to seeing a bear... but that I'll go back to finish later.

GCMV93

 

And an example of a puzzle that has several waypoints (and a cache we're looking forward to finding): GC283WK

 

Interesting; I'm sure there are regional variations in the US as well.

[+roziecakes]

 

Not always though, around here in Oregon, there are several multis like that. Here is one I example I attempted the other day, which unfortunately I DNF'd due to seeing a bear... but that I'll go back to finish later.

GCMV93

 

And an example of a puzzle that has several waypoints (and a cache we're looking forward to finding): GC283WK

 

Interesting; I'm sure there are regional variations in the US as well.

 

Oh absolutely! Perhaps where that person was from there weren't any of these sorts around.

[cezanne]

What us the point of the new Field Puzzle attribute? I assume it means that you can work the puzzle in the field. That usually means that you will need to do some simple math using information you acquired at a multi-stage or at a Question to Answer additional waypoint.

 

Actually, I am not considering boring arithmetic routine work as a puzzle (actually also not as mathematics, but that's another topic). When learning about the new attribute I thought about solving a sudoku which one finds in an intermediate stage, assembling together a puzzle, solving a tangram, some nice riddles in rhyme-form and many other sorts of puzzles.

 

My understandind is that you can currently only use this attribute on a mystery/unknown type cache and not on a multi.

 

That appears to be true at the moment - I do think, however, that it is s strange idea to limit this attribute to the mystery type. I do not think that a hiking multi where one finds small pieces at the different stages (with given coordinates) and where in the end one has to assemble all of them to a one larger piece, is really optimally classified as ?-cache.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited July 7, 2010 by cezanne

[+thedeadpirate]

 

Not always though, around here in Oregon, there are several multis like that. Here is one I example I attempted the other day, which unfortunately I DNF'd due to seeing a bear... but that I'll go back to finish later.

GCMV93

 

And an example of a puzzle that has several waypoints (and a cache we're looking forward to finding): GC283WK

 

Interesting; I'm sure there are regional variations in the US as well.

 

I had a multi pretty much like that (It's Miller Time). You got 3 stages and at each stage you got information to do simple math in order to locate the final. It's a common way of doing multis around here.

[+niraD]

Around here, there are a number of on-site puzzles (field puzzles?). Generally, a cache is listed as a multi if the on-site work involves counting things, simple math, finding the nth word on a plaque, that sort of thing. A cache is listed as a mystery/puzzle if the on-site work involves solving a puzzle of some sort.

 

The posted coordinates of a mystery/puzzle can take you to a physical stage of an on-site puzzle. The posted coordinates of a mystery/puzzle can even take you to the final container. But if you have to solve a puzzle to find/open/retrieve the container, then it's listed as a mystery/puzzle.

 

Yes, the line between a multi-stage on-site puzzle and a multi-cache can get blurry at times. In some cases, the line between an on-site puzzle and a traditional can get blurry. The best you can do is read and understand the guidelines, list it as the type that makes the most sense to you, explain your reasoning in reviewer notes, and change the listing if the reviewer wants you to list it as something else.

[cezanne]

The best you can do is read and understand the guidelines, list it as the type that makes the most sense to you, explain your reasoning in reviewer notes, and change the listing if the reviewer wants you to list it as something else.

 

I agree that reading the guidelines is a necessary requirement, but I do not regard it as sufficient when one intends to come up with the classification that serves the majority of the cachers in the best possible way. We are not hiding caches for getting them through the review process (apart from the fact that not all reviewers even look at the cache type), but for our fellow geocachers.

 

The restriction of the field puzzle attribute to the ?-cache type is a typical example where the an idea which basically is good is not implemented in a way that yields the best result for the cachers. At least this holds for countries where puzzles that can easily be solved on the way without having to go home and without need to access the internet while being on cache hunt are frequent elements of multi caches (in particular quite often in the case of caches with creative tasks).

 

Cezanne

[+NYPaddleCacher]

...but then the container would have to be a proper letterbox (a micro is pretty much disqualified from that).

 

I've found micro letterboxes and LB hybrids.

 

I found a letterbox that was a hide-a-key container. It was about 18" from a geocache that was a hide-a-key container. If that wasn't annoying enough it was just outside a well known chain restaurant that is known for it's coffee and the containers were hidden such that it took a couple of minutes, each, to retrieve them.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I've found micro letterboxes and LB hybrids.

a micro with room for both log and a stamp? i'm sure they exist (the exception confirms the rule) but must be very rare. the one and only LB hybrid that's listed as a micro anywhere close to here is 90 km away, and it's in fact a regular ammo can.

 

Yes. I do have a micro letterbox hybrid! One MKH for the stamp. Another for the log. AFAIK, it's the only LBH in New York City. I'm sure that they are very rare! Sometimes, you adjust the container size to fit the area in which you are hiding the cache. Oh, well. It's has had 141 visitors in almost three years. We're proud of it! It brings you to a beautiful area.

[+roziecakes]

I'd love to see a micro LBH, definitely curious. Do you have a little tiny stamp in it? Kind of nifty.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Not the fanciest stamp in the world. It's carved from an eraser. Fits very nicely into a magnetic keyholder. I've only had to replace it twice so far. Cache is Bear on the Loose, and that is the bear. Or to put it in perspectve, here's a photo that someone posted.