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Proof of finding a benchmark


clearpath

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From what I've seen, most people take digital pics, of both the mark, and maybe some background in the area. Otherwise, I think it's on the honor system or I at least hope so--I have four that I've found incidentally without my camera that I've posted as finds because I actually did see a disk mounted somewhere, but I didn't have my camera with me at the time to record the special event, so they'll have to wait until I get back to them with a camera for others to know that I was actually there.

 

"Wear a smile and have friends; wear a scowl and have wrinkles. What do we live for if not to make the world less difficult for each other?"--George Eliot

 

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When you find a Geocache, there is a log book for you to sign so the cache owner can 'verify and/or confirm' your visit. Benchmarks have no such log book, nor do they have an owner. (Well, technically the NGS, but they're not playing the game.) For the most part, benchmarking on this site is done on the honor system. You visit the mark, you say you've found it, and it probably won't get questioned. There are no benchmark owners monitoring their benchmarks.

 

Many of the more serious benchmarkers use digital photos to verify their finds for a couple of reasons. First, it does validate a find. If you provide an image of a mark matching the description (with your GPSr alongside) there can be no doubt you were there. Second, if any questions do arise (and they sometimes do) the images can help clarify what you did find, if it was or wasn't the correct mark. (I personally feel like I'm cheating if I don't take a few pics of any marks I find, but that's my own O.C.D. that I shouldn't impose on anyone.)

 

Not everyone has a digital camera. If you do, and you decide to use it great. If not, enjoy the marks you find just the same.

 

Keep on Caching! (and Benchmarking!)

- Kewaneh

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Now this is just my opinion but I don't think it is completely necessary to include the GPS in the shot, (although several of my shots do include one). I believe this is a carry over from certain caches that require a gps shot to show that you did not copy a picture from the internet, that you or someone was present with a gps, and to show it wasn't a picture from years before.

I doubt anyone could find a picture of a benchmark on the internet to fake a find, and to steal someone else's photo of a mark could only be used on the same mark. It would be a little obvious they are the same.

A photo is probably the best form of confirmation since it shows the designation of the mark, but I will trust anyone's report without a photo. Of the marks I've seen with "questionable" reports, I just remember a couple mistakes I've made and move on.

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quote:
Originally posted by Kewaneh & Shark:

 

Not everyone has a digital camera. If you do, and you decide to use it great. If not, enjoy the marks you find just the same.

 


 

So, do you post a picture each time you log a benchmark? It would seem that you could accumulate a lot of digital images over time. Do you name the picture with the same name as the benchmark and then store it on your computer in a 'benchmark' folder?

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I always try and get a etch or rubbing of the Triangulation Stations and older marks ,I also get a digital camera shot or 3,and there are those when I had no camerea paper or anything,but they are there if I reported it or within the limits therby governed some of them are 600 feet or more off.One day I will return to get the photos.

But up to the present the Honor System is the way it worked,you see no pics with the original data sheets or here on our data sheets,,The Power Squadron,(LOCSURV)local surveyor,(CGS)(NGS)(NOAA)did not provide photos.

 

So it is benificial to add photos to the mark,get a rubbing,or have a witness.

 

Happy........................... Geotrails

 

Yes I usually name them after the benchmark and add Like

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=EH2908 But I did not find it !!!!!!

Warrior Triangulation Station,

Warrior Triangulation ref1,2,azimuth etc etc

 

after about 250 finds that are logable and 100 or so that are not and the photos out geocaching you do tend to get alot of photos,but when you carry your camera eveywhere you can get some interesting pics.

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

 

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on September 02, 2003 at 08:13 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on September 02, 2003 at 08:19 AM.]

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Clearpath -

 

Yes, I do try to post at least one picture of every benchmark I find. And yes, I have accumulated a LOT of digital images of benchmarks. About 450 images at last count. They are all named with the benchmark name and then numbered. Such as benchmark XX1111 would have images numbered as XX1111-01, XX1111-02, XX1111-03, etc. I do save some of them in a seperate 'benchmark' folder, but have found that a CD-RW is a great way to save hard-disk space.

 

I like to take at least one shot of the mark and the GPSr, and a detail shot of the mark. Sometimes these are the same image. I also like to take a few shots showing the surrounding area with any nearby permanent objects (fences, power poles, curbs, concrete headwalls, etc.) that may help someone else fnd the object again.

 

Sometimes I find one (or more) and I don't have a camera with me. I try to get back to them with a camera, but there are a few of my finds that I have no pictures of, and consequently, haven't posted any images of them with my logs.

 

Keep on Caching! (and Benchmarking!)

- Kewaneh

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IMHO...It is important to have a clear picture of the mark in question to log it as a find. This serves several purposes. First, it proves that there is still a mark there. Second, it proves you were there. (People who are copying other peoples benchmark pictures need to use their powers for something more important.) Lastly, the picture can be used to verify that you are logging the correct benchmark.

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I'm not sure how many photos I've accumulated, but its certainly many hundreds. I upsized my hard drive last year, so I'm not running out of room, but certainly buring onto CD-ROM or CR-RW is a good option for those who need the HD space.

 

I put each month's photos in a separate subdirectory, and I use the following naming convention:

 

Desig_PID_typeX.jpg

 

Where Desig is the name of the station, PID is of course the PID, type is cu (closeup), med, area or similar, and X is a number if there is more than one photo of a particular type, e.g. 308PBPP_HV2047_cu2.jpg

 

I probably average 5-7 raw photos per station, including 2-3 closeups, 1-2 medium shots, and a couple of area shots. Maybe that's a lot, but hey, digital film is cheap! :-)

 

After downloading the files from my camera, I edit the pictures, cropping and adjusting as needed. Then, I add my handle to the file name before saving the edited picture, so I can see at a glance which ones to upload to geocaching.com. And the camera originals remain unchanged should I ever need to go back to them.

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Until I got mine, I just had the local stuffmart store develop my shots with the digital online option. I think it was like $1.50 more over the print cost. But considering along with my other photogragphy, I was developing 4-5 rolls a week, it added up enough that the cost of a digital camera was cheaper in the long run.

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quote:
Originally posted by clearpath:

 

So, do you post a picture each time you log a benchmark? It would seem that you could accumulate a lot of digital images over time. Do you name the picture with the same name as the benchmark and then store it on your computer in a 'benchmark' folder?


 

I have posted very few of the photos I've taken, although out of the approx. 140 I've recovered, I can count on one hand the ones I don't have photos of. I name the photo using the PID and any RM or AZ identifiers that may be applicable. I then have them sorted by state into different folders. I usually take two photos. A close up of the mark, and one of the general area, trying to include a distinguishable feature.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

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I have been going the official NGS way with photos: A closeup, eye-level, and each cardinal direction when possible. Their naming standard is Name-PID-# where # is 1 for closeup, 2 for eyelevel, and 3{N/E/S/W} for directional shots.

 

The NGS requirement is also to have a sign in the photo for the #2 & #3 pictures. At first I tried keeping track of the photo numbers and digitaly adding that later, but that is a big hassle. I picked up a ~8x10" whiteboard and cut it lengthwise to make two nicely sized signs. Using these probally help make me look more "official" while taking the photos.

 

I probally need to look into storage space for these photos since once I crop and resize the shots down to the 1000x800 pixels per NGS, I save a TIFF copy of the photo as my new original. After that I add the NGS required "Station name, PID, Date" and save it as a 50% JPEG.

 

Quite a bit of work, but I plan on submitting the photos to NGS on CD after I get a large bunch done. Maybe they will come up with an electronic transfer option soon.

 

--- J

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quote:
How do I log a benchmark?

On the benchmark's page, click on "Log this benchmark" at the top right corner of its page to log your find. If you have a digital camera, we ask that you take a picture of the mark, and one or two pictures of the area around the mark. Even if you don't have a digital camera, just log your find for others to read. After you have successfully logged your find, you can click on "[upload images]" to upload your pictures. When uploading images, you can put the station's Designation (name, not PID) as well as its State and location in the "Name:" field - it makes the benchmark gallery more interesting.

 


 

Thack Pack, photos are great, but this is from the benchmark main page.

 

When we first started looking for benchmarks, we didn't even have a computer so we carefully read this to see if we needed to post photos of the benchmarks. It clearly states that photo proof is not necessary. We have taken photos of probably about half of the benchmarks we found but we haven't been able to post any of them. For those who insist anyone MUST post photos of the benchmarks, read the benchmark main page.

 

Anyone in Arizona who wants to verify our finds, I'll be insulted, but I have the photos to prove our finds. I would love to post photos of certain benchmarks CZ2284 and the other benchamrks in this series in particular.

 

*********************

 

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

 

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

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quote:
Originally posted by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:

 

Thack Pack, photos are great, but this is from the benchmark main page.

 

It clearly states that photo proof is not necessary.


 

I know that pictures are not necessary but I still think they are important. Please don't read important as essential. I have held off on logging certain benchmarks until I had a camera with me. I still have several I need to take pictures of to log. These are benchmarks that I have stumbled across in my day to day life without a GPSr, camera, or PID description. If I have a picture I can make sure I'm logging the correct mark since the coordinates are going to be off anyway and the description might not exactly fit the location. I have made the mistake of logging improper marks once and would like to avoid it in the future if I can.

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quote:
Originally posted by clearpath:

Guess I need to go out and purchase a digital camera.


 

If you have a regular, boring, old 35mm camera you can always scan the picture into your computer once you have the picures developed. And I don't care if you log your find while you're waiting to finish your roll of film. I've done it. Just make sure you double check the designation on your mark. icon_wink.gif

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quote:
When we first started looking for benchmarks, we didn't even have a computer so we carefully read this to see if we needed to post photos of the benchmarks. It clearly states that photo proof is not necessary.

 

You must remember this: Benchmark hunting is not a job. It's an adventure. A game, a hobby, a pastime, whatever.

 

Yes, the 'official rules' on the benchmark pages say you don't need pictures to make log entries.

 

But you must also remember this. The people who are playing benchmark hunting and logging things here 'play the game' at very different levels of 'serious'.

 

For example DH0704 - log probably more serious than most professional surveyors reports would be.

 

On the other end of the spectrum BC2523 - obviously not very serious at all.

 

And many other levels in between those two examples....

 

Pictures are not officially necessary BUT if you read thru the forum, you will find discussions that may give you the distinct feeling that if you want to be accepted as a 'real benchmark hunter' (for lack of a better phrase), it is very necessary that you provide pictures.

 

Some people feel the need to make 'official' reports about what they find or don't find to the NGS. Other people (incuding me) think that since we are not professionals, that's not a good idea. So there are many different opinions of how 'serious' what we are doing here is, and there are probably a bunch of different personal reasons as to why we are doing it.

 

Bottom line: There is no admin pressure to provide pictures, but there may be some 'peer' pressure.

 

Personally, I don't upload any pictures any more for several reasons. One, they aren't officially necessary for me to play, two, I upload them to my own web site in the off event that anybody really wants to look at them (which I doubt), three, after reading the discussion in the Geocaching forum about the changes to the TOS here, I decided I didn't want to upload any more pictures, and four, I could care less about peer pressure.

 

You pick the level at which YOU want to play. Then go play, and have fun.

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I'd have to say that we all pretty much agree.

 

The goal of the enthusiast here is to be as accurate as possible in verifying a mark, and that tends to bleed over into the methods of reporting. But I think it's great that people are sharing their skills and suggestions so that we all can improve. (Plus I have yet to see anyone say 'do it this way or else'.) My experiences in the field and what I am learning here is the reason I hunt.

 

I would like to point out that really what one person does rarely affects another hunter. You can be a purist or lackadaisical in your reporting. I can list a mark as "found as described" and the next guy could give an complete official report to NGS. It really doesn't impact either person. (BB22 was pointing that out as well)

 

[This message was edited by dgarner on September 02, 2003 at 08:39 PM.]

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For those of you without a digital camera, I saw Radio Shack closing out an Olympus 1.3 MP camera for $50. If it didn't already own a camera I'd be very tempted.

 

quote:
Originally posted by BeachBum22:

Personally, I don't upload any pictures any more for several reasons. ..... after reading the discussion in the Geocaching forum about the changes to the TOS here, I decided I didn't want to upload any more pictures


 

What's so ulgy in the TOU? I had a quick look at it but didn't see anything that bad.

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quote:
What's so ulgy in the TOU? I had a quick look at it but didn't see anything that bad.

I just didn't feel comfortable with the second half of section five, starting with 'By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak....'

 

Probably just necessary legaleeze, but you never know. I also noticed that once you upload a picture, you can't really delete it, you can only remove links to it, and that kind of made me wonder.

 

Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I've been 'had' before in the derivitive works department.

 

I'm looking for adventure - I already have a number of part time computer jobs I don't get paid for icon_cool.gif

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quote:
By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You.

 

"Sell" seems a bit strong. Possibly necessary since the site does "sell" subscriptions. Huh, maybe I'll just upload the low-res photos. Save the "good ones" for NGS. (And just what is NGS going to do? icon_smile.gif - probably nothing worse the Geocaching would - "sell" it to surveyors.)

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The original discussion is here if you are interested.

 

I don't know how it got started there, because I don't see much commercial value in pictures of people holding ammo cans in the woods.

 

On the other hand, there may be some commercial value to a large database of documented and photographed benchmarks. I've played the game of 'I make it you sell it before', so in the event that ever does happen here, I don't want to play. Not that it will, but you never know....

 

I think the general conclusion of the other discussion was basically that most people never read the TOU of most web sites they use.

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quote:
Originally posted by BeachBum22:

The original discussion is http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=81260118 if you are interested.


 

Well, that was good time wasted! Anyway, I see that it bothers people, but I don't think it's that bad. At least now that may explain why I've seen one user watermark his photo so. I was thinking of keeping at a size too small for NGS standards so it couldn't be "sold" there. (Although I may well contribute photos to NGS when they start allowing that.)

 

What arrangement do you use to post your photos? Is it a site you pay for?

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quote:
Originally posted by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:

quote:
How do I log a benchmark?

On the benchmark's page, click on "Log this benchmark" at the top right corner of its page to log your find. If you have a digital camera, we ask that you take a picture of the mark, and one or two pictures of the area around the mark. Even if you don't have a digital camera, just log your find for others to read. After you have successfully logged your find, you can click on "[upload images]" to upload your pictures. When uploading images, you can put the station's Designation (name, not PID) as well as its State and location in the "Name:" field - it makes the benchmark gallery more interesting.

 


 

Thack Pack, photos are great, but this is from the benchmark main page.

 

When we first started looking for benchmarks, we didn't even have a computer so we carefully read this to see if we needed to post photos of the benchmarks. It clearly states that photo proof is not necessary. We have taken photos of probably about half of the benchmarks we found but we haven't been able to post any of them. For those who insist anyone MUST post photos of the benchmarks, read the benchmark main page.

 

Anyone in Arizona who wants to verify our finds, I'll be insulted, but I have the photos to prove our finds. I would love to post photos of certain benchmarks http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=CZ2284 and the other benchamrks in this series in particular.


 

From that benchmark page:

"This benchmark is like the others of the army's 1966-67 mapping project. It consists of large concrete maltese cross arms around a central round block with the benchmark in the center. Presumably for aerial survey since they were painted blue to contrast with the desert. Faint remnants of the paint are still visible. This one is fenced off, with its cross arms fully intact and partially silted over from flooding, but the benchmark is there."

 

With descriptions like that, you don't need a photo or any more proof! Wow!

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quote:
Originally posted by BeachBum22:

 

I don't know how it got started there, because I don't see much commercial value in pictures of people holding ammo cans in the woods.

 

On the other hand, there may be some commercial value to a large database of documented and photographed benchmarks. I've played the game of 'I make it you sell it before', so in the event that ever does happen here, I don't want to play. Not that it will, but you never know....


 

Just a suggestion for downloading pictures to the site...

Use one of the photoshop programs and put you name in block out-line type letters across the picture before you send it. Use a nice contrasting color with letters large enough to see through. This would negate any resell value of the picture.

John

 

*******************************************************

Human beings can always be counted on to assert with vigor their God-given right to be stupid.--Dean Koontz

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