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DNF vs Note


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I read an online log the other day where someone posted a note log saying something like.."It was raining a little so I only looked for a few minutes and came up empty handed. Will be back to look at a later date." I'm sure that wasn't exact, but I've seen a few people do this. If you look(for however long) and didn't find it(for whatever excuse), shouldn't it be a DNF log? Why do people do this? When I only spend 2 minutes looking for something and stop because it got too dark by the time I got there, should I have left a note instead of my DNF log? I wish I could find an example, but I don't remember which ones they are now.

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I'm pretty free with my DNF logs, but if I don't give it a good look for whatever reason I'm more likely to post a note. I think of it this way a lot of people use DNF logs to decide rather to attempt a cache. There was one I tried for in a park. The first time I went the park had just closed. So I didn't look. I didn't log anything because IMO I didn't even look. Silly me I didn't read the sign well and the next time I was in the area I took a detour thinking I'd try for it. Only the park was closed that day. I posted something (I think a DNF) stating that the park was closed on Mon and Wed or whatever it was. Mostly because I didn't want others to be frustrated by the odd (IMO) park hours. The 3rd time I think I posted a note because I got there late and realized that it was a much further walk to GZ than I had hoped for. Again I was just in the area and decided to give it quick try, but it was close to closing time. there were no other finds between my DNF and that attempt. Someone taking a peek and seeing several DNF's in a row might assume the cache was missing and skip it based upon my say so. You will get all kinds of responses as to how the right way ot do it is. I say go with your gut. Mine says a DNF means I really looked and I didn't find it. How long I feel I need to look depends upon the rating and the hint. If I feel like I knew exactly what I should have been looking for and where and it wasn't there 2 minutes could be long enough to warrant a DNF. For a harder one 10 minutes might be more fair. There have been a few where my GPS was so flaky I never could a fix on GZ. Some I still managed to find, if I didn’t I logged a DNF. I’m not shy about doing so. The only cache I regret not logging a 2nd DNF on was one shortly after I started caching. I gave it a look once, but there were too many muggles so I left and posted a DNF saying that even though I looked pretty good I could have missed it. Later I went back and looked for awhile. I was new and instead of logging another message on the cache page I sent the owner a note saying I was pretty sure it was missing. They sent me a rather curt note saying that they required 3 DNF’s by different people before they would check on the cache. It had been a popular cache so I’m pretty sure that many people searched and were shy about logging between my DNF and the next 2 that came months apart. Sure enough the cache was missing. I thought it was very rude of the CO to act like it wasn’t worth their time to check. If I had still been in the area after the rude note I would have gone back a 3rd time after I had a little more experience and then posted a NA. In that case my 2nd DNF might have saved some people a bit of drive, because the cache was placed in a place that was hard to get into and you had to drive out of your way a bit unless you happened to be going into that area. Now I tend to think of more than DNF's as warnings.

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Some cachers treat the DNF as a mark of shame, because they must attach value to each type of cache log and cache attribute in order to appease their personal sense of competition. Terrain ratings become awards, and a DNF log means GAME OVER, YOU LOSE.

 

I treat the DNF as a way of marking a cache that I attempted to find, so that I may try to find it again. I make sure to note the circumstances of the DNF for the benefit of the owner and other cachers. Whether I wimped out because there were too many mosquitoes, or searched for an hour with no results, or found a sad pile of firewood where there used to be a tree with a cache in it, I describe the situation in the DNF log and move on without shame.

Edited by narcissa
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If this has been brought up before, can someone just point me to that thread. I can't find anything on it anywhere, but I may be searching for the wrong words/phrases. I didn't realize this would be so controversial.

Don't worry about it. The search here doesn't work too well (suggestion : use google to search the forums) and besides, it hasn't been brought up in a while. To summarize:

 

1. Some log DNF the moment they press "Go" on their GPSr with the intent to search, or if they arrive at GZ.

2. Some log DNF if they've spent even 1 second searching, but not if they aborted before they started searching.

3. Some log DNF only if they felt they've put in an earnest search. Part of the justification here is that they don't want to mislead others into thinking the cache might be missing or hard to find.

4. Some don't log any DNF.

 

Since there is no telling what kind of person the CO is, my suggestion is to log what you think is the most helpful in your opinion.

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If I reach GZ and search for the cache, then I will log either a Find or a DNF. If I don't reach GZ or if I reach GZ and don't search for whatever reason, then I log a Note (sometimes calling it a DNS: Did Not Search).

 

Not everyone plays the same way. Some log a DNF even if they didn't search, or if they didn't even reach GZ. Others don't log a DNF unless they've given up ever finding the cache, or unless they're convinced that the cache is missing. Still others never log a DNF, and some never log a Find either.

 

Play the game the way you want to play it. Don't worry too much about people who play it differently.

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If we get to Ground Zero (or where we believe it to be) and search for sufficient time (for us that may mean 2 minutes, or 20 minutes, or until we get bored) and don't find the cache then we log a DNF.

 

If we get to Ground Zero (or where we believe it to be) and don't start searching because /there are muggles picnicing/a huge, slavering dog chases us off/it starts raining heavily/an offspring phones to say there's water coming through the ceiling of their room and What should they do?/Insert any other plausible, dramatic excuse here/ then we'll depart swiftly and will log a Note.

 

It's a case of "Do we feel that we searched sufficiently at the location, for that particular visit?"

If it's "Yes" then we log a DNF.

If it's "No" then we log a Note.

 

We always log something. :mad:

 

MrsB

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I only log a DNF if i have been searching for a cache for a longer period of time and want to show it.

I dont use Note very often.

 

If i come to a place and see alot of muggles for example and have to quit, i often dont log at all.

Edited by linus84
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To each; their own...

 

Mine= get to GZ and be able to actually search... if driven off for one reason or another, then either a note or nothing at all... If I search, and find nothing, then I feel I owe the CO the courtesy of telling them I either cannot find it or it may be missing... and let them decide if they need to check it or not...

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Don't worry about it. The search here doesn't work too well (suggestion : use google to search the forums) and besides, it hasn't been brought up in a while. To summarize:

 

1. Some log DNF the moment they press "Go" on their GPSr with the intent to search, or if they arrive at GZ.

2. Some log DNF if they've spent even 1 second searching, but not if they aborted before they started searching.

3. Some log DNF only if they felt they've put in an earnest search. Part of the justification here is that they don't want to mislead others into thinking the cache might be missing or hard to find.

4. Some don't log any DNF.

 

Since there is no telling what kind of person the CO is, my suggestion is to log what you think is the most helpful in your opinion.

 

I'm a option 3 person. Not because I have any shame about DNF, but because that interpretation makes the most sense to me personally. "Earnest search" for me means I've looked until I got fed up... that could be an hour or it could be 5 minutes depending on the cache. Most of the time I do give it this earnest search, so if I don't find it's a DNF. If I had just started looking when my wife calls and says there is an emergency and I need to come home immediately, I log a note or possibly nothing at all.

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OK, whose turn is it to bring the popcorn this time?

 

My suggestion on this one is, log whatever makes sense to you, and don't worry too much about how others do it.

 

The problem with that is, it's a proven fact that at least 53% of the population has the common sense of a rock. They need rules to guide their behavior. They'd eat dirt, unless there was someone there to tell them not to...

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3. Some log DNF only if they felt they've put in an earnest search. Part of the justification here is that they don't want to mislead others into thinking the cache might be missing or hard to find.

 

 

yeap, that's what we do

 

to the OP, as others said do what you feel is best because there is no "rule" how you do it, really there isn't no matter what some may say

Edited by t4e
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I only log a DNF when I get to the point where I stop a search because I can't find the cache. The key point being that I'm admitting I can't find the cache.

 

An aborted search for any other reason, I usually post a note.

 

There are, of course, exceptions to that, most notably if I intend to post a needs maintenance or recommend the cache be archived, I'll always post a DNF first.

 

On a related note, I usually consider one posted note or dnf to cover for a one day period regardless of how many times I might return to search again in that period (multiple searches would be mentioned in the log). Searches on a separate day would get a separate note or dnf.

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I pretty much never post notes.

 

I'm not ashamed of my DNF's they are reminders to me of caches I have to go back and try or watch to see if they're still there etc. I log a DNF after I put in an honest effort in the search. I had a bunch of them that I didn't find this last weekend but only a few I put an honest search in on. The rest of them were victims of me rapidly approaching heat exhaustion and dealing wit a sunburn so I gave them a quick once over and walked away because I couldn't stand out in the sun anymore. That was not an honest effort on my part.

 

Some of them I did stand out there for and give an honest effort. I logged a couple DNF's on those.

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I log a DNF if I did not find the cache after a reasonable search. If I'm looking for a normal cache at night/poor light conditions then I'll usually come back during the day the following day. In those cases I assume that environmental conditions played a part and so I don't log a DNF unless I'm done looking (until next time). If the CO (or someone else) posts that it's still there, or that they found it then I'll go back and look again.

 

I post notes when I want to say something about the cache and I've already posted a DNF or a Find on it. One example, I searched twice for a cache that had been described as being highly visible last time a find was logged (over a month earlier). I posted a DNF on it, and tried to contact the CO (no response from a non existent email address for someone who hadn't been on in months). So I posted a note asking if someone else could check if it was still there. Two other people have since confirmed that they can't find it either, and a reviewer has disabled it.

 

Z.

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i log a DNF when i feel that the search has exhausted all hiding possibilities and therefore think the cache may just not be there.

 

i usually also log a DNF if the search was interrupted by some factors, such as muggles or bad weather, and if we have no plans to return in the near future.

 

if we never even started searching (e.g. muggles on top of cache, GZ inaccessible, etc), i will not post a DNF, but i may post a note. if it was a very temporary and insignificant obstruction (muggles), i may not post anything at all.

 

if the search was elaborate but unsuccessful, if we suspect a hide that has outsmarted us and if we have plans of returning in the near future, i may not log anything at all, yet.

 

overall i agree with GOF.

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I agree with: "If you couldn't find it, just log some information, note or DNF."

 

And I might add: if you are going to log a cache as a find, even though you didn't find it, at least say that's what you did so you don't mislead the next person.

Some of my favorite bogus find logs:

"If it had been there I would have found it, so I'm claiming the find."

"Logging a find with permission of owner."

And my all time favorite: "Couldn't log a DNF, because it wasn't there to be found." ;)

At least those logs all told you they didn't find it.

Much worse is, "TFTC" or the cut and paste, "Found a bunch of caches in your area and this was one of them," only to find out the cache wasn't there.

 

I wish our DNF lists were on our profiles, just like various types of finds, hides, and trackables. But very few seem to favor that.

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My personal philosophy on DNFs:

 

If I make what I think is a reasonable search for the cache in the area of GZ and do not find it, it is a DNF.

 

If I am unable to reach GZ because of some unexpected factor (ex: rainfall having created standing water), I will leave a Note.

 

If I am unable to search the GZ area or have my search cut short because of muggle activity or a similar factor, I will leave a Note.

 

If I take a brief look at GZ and decide not to search because it seems like it will take longer than I wish to spend today, or if only make a brief search, or if my GPS spazzes out then I will make no log at all.

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I pretty much think that if I start the search process, and DID NOT FIND it, then I will log a DID NOT FIND. I think the purpose of a DNF was to say that you DNF it. It doesn't say that it might be missing, that would be a needs maintenance or needs archived log in my opinion. At least that's what I hope others will do for my hides. I do look at the DNF logs to see whether or not I will search for a cache, but it depends on what the log says. So, I think, the content of the log is more important than the type of log.

 

Thanks for pointing me to the other thread and giving me the google tip.

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As a CO (on our team account, hiding since 2002) I don't care. Log a note or a DNF. I just want to know if you think our cache is missing.

Local cache, one of a series along a trail.

A previous finder found it on the ground in the ditch...

 

Caches before, and after this one have been logged as found. Nothing -note or DNF- to say this one may not be there... ;)

 

If I search and don't find. DNF

If I get close and can't search, eg muggles, it's a note.

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i log a DNF when i feel that the search has exhausted all hiding possibilities and therefore think the cache may just not be there.

 

if the search was elaborate but unsuccessful, if we suspect a hide that has outsmarted us and if we have plans of returning in the near future, i may not log anything at all, yet.

 

This is also how I work. If I have ANY doubts that I have figured out the hide, I just don't log anything and return on another occasion to try again. A couple of times I have returned to the cache page a couple days later and it has been logged as found by someone else so I know I just didn't get it. In one instance there were 2 prior DNFs (it was a spur of the moment cache looked up with my smartphone and I didn't read the logs) if I had of logged my DNF it might of kept someone from looking for it, however it WAS found just 2 days later by someone so it was still there, just very well hidden.

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i log a DNF when i feel that the search has exhausted all hiding possibilities and therefore think the cache may just not be there.

 

if the search was elaborate but unsuccessful, if we suspect a hide that has outsmarted us and if we have plans of returning in the near future, i may not log anything at all, yet.

 

This is also how I work. If I have ANY doubts that I have figured out the hide, I just don't log anything and return on another occasion to try again. A couple of times I have returned to the cache page a couple days later and it has been logged as found by someone else so I know I just didn't get it. In one instance there were 2 prior DNFs (it was a spur of the moment cache looked up with my smartphone and I didn't read the logs) if I had of logged my DNF it might of kept someone from looking for it, however it WAS found just 2 days later by someone so it was still there, just very well hidden.

 

See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

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See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

See, I just don't get this. Why does it bother you so much?

 

Considering what you said in post #19, shouldn't you be posting this with the sock instead?

Edited by Chrysalides
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See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

See, I just don't get this. Why does it bother you so much?

 

Considering what you said in post #19, shouldn't you be posting this with the sock instead?

 

Did I say it bothered me? Sorry. It doesn't. I just don't follow the reasoning. Makes no sense. DNF does not stand for cache missing.

 

Yes, I still think it is fine to post a note with the info. I didn't say that was what I do.

 

I should be on the sock account. Guess I need to log in on this machine.

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See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

See, I just don't get this. Why does it bother you so much?

 

That's what I was wondering too.

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See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

See, I just don't get this. Why does it bother you so much?

 

Considering what you said in post #19, shouldn't you be posting this with the sock instead?

 

Did I say it bothered me? Sorry. It doesn't. I just don't follow the reasoning. Makes no sense. DNF does not stand for cache missing.

 

Yes, I still think it is fine to post a note with the info. I didn't say that was what I do.

 

I should be on the sock account. Guess I need to log in on this machine.

 

Oh OK. It just sounded like it bothered you that some people use DNF (or a note) to mean...I'm pretty sure the cache isn't there and use a note (or nothing) when they mean...I got out of the car, it started to rain so I went home instead.

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See, I just don't get this. It's a Did Not Find, not a Cache Is Gone. Sure, enough DNFs and you can infer the cache is likely gone but just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's gone. So really it is very simple DNF=Did Not Find so if I did not find the cache that is what I log.

See, I just don't get this. Why does it bother you so much?

 

Considering what you said in post #19, shouldn't you be posting this with the sock instead?

 

Did I say it bothered me? Sorry. It doesn't. I just don't follow the reasoning. Makes no sense. DNF does not stand for cache missing.

 

Yes, I still think it is fine to post a note with the info. I didn't say that was what I do.

 

I should be on the sock account. Guess I need to log in on this machine.

 

Oh OK. It just sounded like it bothered you that some people use DNF (or a note) to mean...I'm pretty sure the cache isn't there and use a note (or nothing) when they mean...I got out of the car, it started to rain so I went home instead.

 

;) Nope. Not upset just confused. You'd think I'd be used to it by now.

 

Oh, I mean you'd think G&B would be used to it. :blink:

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most i have seen won't even note... ESPECIALLY if they* don't find it. they* are egotists who don't want anyone to see that they* are too stupid to lift a lamppost skirt.

 

they will tell you that they've* been there 10 times.

 

IF they* believe that the cache isn't at the posted location they* might post a note, they* might even post a DNF, which is closely followed by a NM log demanding the CO get out there and verify the cache position.

 

 

* they being the ones that have been at this a while....and in my caching area. yup, i just called a good bit of them out. ;)

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This is always a fun topic.

 

To me, Geocaching is a game you play against yourself. At the end of the day there really is no trophy other than your own self satisfaction of acheiving a goal you set.

 

My thing is getting all caches in a given area. I dont even try for the most caches, because very simply I dont have the time to keep up. Someday, lord willing I will. But for now..not for me.

 

The reason I bring this into this tread, is the rules you set for yourself...you set for yourself. The Groundspeak rules are guildlines to base your own set of standards on. For me, I will not log a DNF unless I one, arrive at ground zero and be within 30 feet. and two give it a good honest effort to find. There are times I arrive, and for whatever reason, I have to leave before really giving it a good look. Maybe my GPS died, Maybe I have realized I have to go back to work, or maybe Im just plain done for the day. In anycase, for these I usually do not post anything unless I feel the owner needs to know something.

 

However, if I do get within 30 feet, and give it an honest try...(3 - 5 minutes) I will log a DNF. This is MY Guidline for this subject. For others it may be more strict. Some say if you even think of going for it, set you GPS, but never even get close...its a DNF. Some folks never log them at all.

 

I would not stress it.

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most i have seen won't even note... ESPECIALLY if they* don't find it. they* are egotists who don't want anyone to see that they* are too stupid to lift a lamppost skirt.

Guess it is inevitable the thread swings in this direction. Not everyone do not log a DNF because they're ashamed of it. I'm guessing (meaning I don't have proof, so I can't and won't defend this) many old timers who do not log DNFs don't do it because they consider it "extra work" that they don't enjoy.

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most i have seen won't even note... ESPECIALLY if they* don't find it. they* are egotists who don't want anyone to see that they* are too stupid to lift a lamppost skirt.

Guess it is inevitable the thread swings in this direction. Not everyone do not log a DNF because they're ashamed of it. I'm guessing (meaning I don't have proof, so I can't and won't defend this) many old timers who do not log DNFs don't do it because they consider it "extra work" that they don't enjoy.

 

Too bad really. Some of the best logs out there are DNFs.

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Did I say it bothered me? Sorry. It doesn't. I just don't follow the reasoning. Makes no sense. DNF does not stand for cache missing.

of course it doesn't, because the seeker can never be sure that the cache is missing, only the CO can (most of the time, anyway).

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To summarize:

 

1. Some log DNF the moment they press "Go" on their GPSr with the intent to search, or if they arrive at GZ.

2. Some log DNF if they've spent even 1 second searching, but not if they aborted before they started searching.

3. Some log DNF only if they felt they've put in an earnest search. Part of the justification here is that they don't want to mislead others into thinking the cache might be missing or hard to find.

4. Some don't log any DNF.

I can be any one of those people, depending on the day's mood.
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I think logging a dnf is going to depend on how you view the dnf. If you see it as a way to record your caching history you will log a dnf when it starts to rain and you call off the hunt before even leaving your car. If you see the dnf as a service to other finders and to the CO, you probably won't log the dnf because that information (the rain and subsequent aborted hunt) is irrelevant to the next finder and to the CO.

Edited by Lone R
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I log a DNF if I've started the hunt and came up empty. To me the hunt starts the moment I hit Go To on my GPS.

 

But that's like saying you did not make it to the store if you couldn't find your car keys.

It kinda depends on where and when you hit the go to button or decide to look for your car keys.

 

I see what you are saying and mostly agree. I have no problem with logging a DNF (although I rarely do because either I or the wife won't give up until we are dead, convinced it is gone or are fighting over whether we should give up).

 

I suppose it is all about where we draw the line in the sand. Is it when you turn the GPS on? When you fire up the computer? When you get out of the car at the trail head?

 

We all cache different but mostly for the same reason. To find buried treasure!!! hahaha....

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I think logging a dnf is going to depend on how you view the dnf. If you see it as a way to record your caching history you will log a dnf when it starts to rain and you call off the hunt before even leaving your car. If you see the dnf as a service to other finders and to the CO, you probably won't log the dnf because that information (the rain and subsequent aborted hunt) is irrelevant to the next finder and to the CO.

 

Oh, very good point! I read past logs to decide whether to hunt or not. Luckily, it's usually clear from the log whether it was a "personal history" type DNF or a "cache ain't there!" type DNF. Thanks for bringing up this thought.

 

--Q

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